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View Full Version : newer rayburns better than old?



pmiracing
05-30-2010, 03:24 PM
Are the Newer rayburns any better than the older ones? About all they have changed is the swing arm length, and played with different pull/push bars, isn't it? We have an 03 and like the car other than we cannot get enough side bite on exit, have they improved this? Just getting frustrated on the slick having to wait and wait on the throttle. We have tried everything from a 450-1100 lb spring on the rr swingarm and as much as 850 on the cage rr, j-bar all helped but is just never enough. Just wondering if a newer car would be an improvement or a waste of money.

burstgear
05-30-2010, 03:49 PM
Are all the other cars having the same problem exiting?

jayjohnsonj1
05-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Are the Newer rayburns any better than the older ones? About all they have changed is the swing arm length, and played with different pull/push bars, isn't it? We have an 03 and like the car other than we cannot get enough side bite on exit, have they improved this? Just getting frustrated on the slick having to wait and wait on the throttle. We have tried everything from a 450-1100 lb spring on the rr swingarm and as much as 850 on the cage rr, j-bar all helped but is just never enough. Just wondering if a newer car would be an improvement or a waste of money.
I have a 09 under rail combo car and really like it. It does have more side bite than the 08 over rail I had. Then newer car has helped us a lot.

pmiracing
05-30-2010, 04:23 PM
"I have a 09 under rail combo car and really like it. It does have more side bite than the 08 over rail I had. Then newer car has helped us a lot."

What is different about the 09 car that makes it better? The under rail?

SlingShot
05-31-2010, 10:50 AM
Are the Newer rayburns any better than the older ones? About all they have changed is the swing arm length, and played with different pull/push bars, isn't it? We have an 03 and like the car other than we cannot get enough side bite on exit, have they improved this? Just getting frustrated on the slick having to wait and wait on the throttle. We have tried everything from a 450-1100 lb spring on the rr swingarm and as much as 850 on the cage rr, j-bar all helped but is just never enough. Just wondering if a newer car would be an improvement or a waste of money.
Side bite on exit or at the center? You say your waiting to pick up the foot feed, which sounds like the center to me. Just curious. Are you on the J-bar or RS P-Bar.

stevo
05-31-2010, 11:51 AM
Are you on swing arm rr ?

pmiracing
05-31-2010, 12:05 PM
We have tried both bars but we are on the j-bar now, it seemed a little better. The main problem is you can't seem to turn and accelerate at the same time on the slick. If I wait until I can accelerate straight the car is a rocket ship, but you just loose too much time in the corner. It's like the RR just won't get in the track enough. Like I said we have tried a bunch of different springs, bar angles, panhard bars, z-link, and swingarm and all have helped but just not nearly enough. The car drives really well in and through the center and is awesome in the tack. Thanks

jayjohnsonj1
05-31-2010, 01:47 PM
"I have a 09 under rail combo car and really like it. It does have more side bite than the 08 over rail I had. Then newer car has helped us a lot."

What is different about the 09 car that makes it better? The under rail?

The 08 over rail I had would get over on the rr and pick up the lf bad it never seem to get over on the rf. The 09 underrail I have gets over on the rf more and cj also put more angle in the shock mounts on the rr. We run ours on the birdcage and put a 6 in offset wheel on the rr for the slick.

stevo
05-31-2010, 06:25 PM
Need to go to birdcage on rr when track slows down and you will have as much sidebite as bar cars

pmiracing
05-31-2010, 06:42 PM
We are running on the bird cage RR now with as much as a 850 lb. spring and still don't have nearly the side bite off as the four bars. Everything we do seems to help, but I still feel like we are a mile off. Also i feel like we have maxed all adjustments out and still need more. I keep making changes hoping to go too far so I can back up and we never get there.

WheelchairWarrior
05-31-2010, 10:52 PM
You say your spinning the tires on exit and are maxed out on all your adjustments. You may want to replace the spring in your pull bar. Pull it out and set it next to a new one. We did this with ours and it was about 3/16 shorter. We replaced it with the new one and it tightend the car up. Also try moving your pull bar over to the mount on the left of the chassis, not straight up the center...

SlingShot
06-01-2010, 10:07 AM
You say your spinning the tires on exit and are maxed out on all your adjustments. You may want to replace the spring in your pull bar. Pull it out and set it next to a new one. We did this with ours and it was about 3/16 shorter. We replaced it with the new one and it tightend the car up. Also try moving your pull bar over to the mount on the left of the chassis, not straight up the center...
I dont think he said he was spinning the tires on exit. The way I understand him he is having to wait in the center before he throttles up because the car is sliding. To me this is a center problem, not an exit issue. Could be wrong driving style for this type chassis. JMO

pmiracing
06-01-2010, 01:06 PM
The car isn't really ether, it isn't tailing out until I pick up the throttle. But it only tails out if I turn and accelerate on exit. If I wait until I can just accelerate straight it goes like mad. I am running the pullbar left and it has a new spring. I was actually thinking of trying the pullbar centered to plant the RR harder on throttle. Thanks for the replies guys.

SlingShot
06-01-2010, 01:36 PM
The car isn't really ether, it isn't tailing out until I pick up the throttle. But it only tails out if I turn and accelerate on exit. If I wait until I can just accelerate straight it goes like mad. I am running the pullbar left and it has a new spring. I was actually thinking of trying the pullbar centered to plant the RR harder on throttle. Thanks for the replies guys.
Now we are getting somewhere. Let me ask you this. Which way are you steered when you pick up the throttle? Rayburn's, in my experience, tend to be over tight on entry. To overcome this some drivers make the mistake of over driving entry or by braking the car loose and then it slides. Just a thought, but you may want to back up on some of your adjustments and focus getting the car to turn better. Anyway, which way are you turned when you throttle up, Left or Right?

pmiracing
06-01-2010, 02:44 PM
I would say turned right. I'm not sure it is a tight entry problem, as I c
an make the car tight or loose on entry depending on how I drive it. If I trail brake in I can make the car as tight as I want and if I enter off the gas and on the brake it is loose in.

pmiracing
06-01-2010, 07:53 PM
Could it possibly be too much left side weight or not enough rear % ? The reason I ask is the car gets worse as the race goes on, unless it rubbers up then the car comes back to life as more rubber lays down. It seems like we back up until the rubber comes then we start moving back forward. Here are the numbers we ran this weekend in the car.

55.1% left
54.8% cross
54.8% rear (with 12" of fuel)
56.5% rear with full cell (we always start with a full cell)
246 lbs. bite
2481 total

500 lb. LF spring
550 lb. RF spring
350 lb. LR spring on swingarm
850 lb. RR spring on birdcage

The only thing I can think of that I haven't tried yet is messing with the left side weight and rear %. I haven't changed those because I am already really heavy with no added lead (all steel motor) and the only thing I see that I can move is the battery and the fuel cell(with some fab work).

jayjohnsonj1
06-01-2010, 08:21 PM
Could it possibly be too much left side weight or not enough rear % ? The reason I ask is the car gets worse as the race goes on, unless it rubbers up then the car comes back to life as more rubber lays down. It seems like we back up until the rubber comes then we start moving back forward. Here are the numbers we ran this weekend in the car.

55.1% left
54.8% cross
54.8% rear (with 12" of fuel)
56.5% rear with full cell (we always start with a full cell)
246 lbs. bite
2481 total

500 lb. LF spring
550 lb. RF spring
350 lb. LR spring on swingarm
850 lb. RR spring on birdcage

The only thing I can think of that I haven't tried yet is messing with the left side weight and rear %. I haven't changed those because I am already really heavy with no added lead (all steel motor) and the only thing I see that I can move is the battery and the fuel cell(with some fab work).
On ours we run around 53 left and always start out with 57 rear but I'm a 120lb driver so we can put weight anywhere.

Egoracing
06-01-2010, 09:29 PM
Jay your 120!!!
I agree on lowering the Left % but one thing no one has asked that I noticed, How much stagger are you running. To much stagger for the track conditions and the car will want to get loose on exit on the gas from the center out as the RR tries to drive around the RF. We would loose 1-3 inches or so depending on the track shape when it gets slick on a 4 bar car.

pmiracing
06-01-2010, 09:40 PM
We were rotating between two sets of rears this weekend about 3 1/2" in the heats and about 2 1/2" in the features. We have actually been having a hard time getting stagger with the d55's we have to run. They all seem to measure out the same when mounted regardless of the chalk mark. How much would moving the battery from the left in front of the cell to the right behind the cell cross bar change, or would I have to move the cell right instead? Thanks for the help guys.

charcoal01
06-01-2010, 10:04 PM
i had a similar problem in a camaro clip car, that problem being too much left side weight. car was fine going in but once i hit the apex, it got really hard to keep the ass under it. i was running around 54.5 left side at the time (it may have been higher) and had a guy who had been around a while convince me to lower my left side down to under 54 with me in it. problem solved. that ls weight doesnt start to really transfer until right before the apex on most tracks and once it starts moving it doesnt stop until the car is pointed straight again. could be over transfering that weight and over loading your rs tires.

if you could get your ls down to around 54% you may notice a big diff.

as far as the battery, take it loose and try to set it on the frame more or less where you think you'd mount it, even on top of the fuel cell on the rs of the car will give you a good idea.

cassellracing24
06-01-2010, 10:11 PM
I agree, to much left. Try putting another battery box on far right inside frame rail. Aim for 52.5-53% left side & see if that help's as Im sure it will. Car is probably bad fast on heavy track with that much left but just cant get tires into track when slick. JMO hope it helps

SlingShot
06-02-2010, 11:23 AM
I agree thats far too much left.

Kromulous
06-02-2010, 12:08 PM
850lb spring, on the cage with indexing, and your taking about decreasing leftside%? Looks like to me you could put 60% right side weight in it, and it aint gonna make a difference.

Rayburns CG's are to low...

pmiracing
06-02-2010, 01:13 PM
Thanks everyone for all the help. I think I will have to move more than the battery to loose 2% left. I will put it on the scales tonight or tomorrow and start moving stuff. I got a feeling I will have to cut the fuel cell out and move it to change that much. I guess I can make it clamp on so it is adjustable then.

charcoal01
06-02-2010, 01:51 PM
just remember, if you're taking the battery off the left and moving it to the right, you're not only adding 50lbs or whatever to your rs, you're also subtracting that from the left side, so it may not be as difficult as you think.

pmiracing
06-02-2010, 01:59 PM
hopefully that's all it takes, it would be a lot easier than the cell. I figured I will take the battery out and set it on the decking on the right to see what it does.

charcoal01
06-02-2010, 02:10 PM
thats your best bet. sometimes it doesnt take much. i moved a 28 lb weight on a 3000 lb car from behind the drivers seat to near the rear bumper on the ls and it changed .4 percent rear.

SLOWRIDE
06-03-2010, 10:43 PM
I moved my battery this winter like youre gonna do and dropped only .3 to .4 left.I weigh 220lbs and could never get my left down to what they were sayin but I can get to about 54.3 with driver weight in seat.

Graff Spee
06-03-2010, 11:52 PM
I think you are way to heavy on the rt rear spring! You can create more traction to an extent with a heaver spring but when it slicks off as you state you will lose traction. The spring will react to fast and blow out any traction you had. Try softer!!!!

CBGarage
06-04-2010, 10:29 AM
I have a similar issue, cannot get the left side weight under 55.5%. We're going to race the car for the first time this weekend and everyone keeps telling us we're gong to be way tight under acceleration where we're at now.

Can we not angle the bars to add RR drive to the car and take LR drive away to compensate? New to late models so I don't really know what I'm doing here, just seems logical to me. If so, what directions add drive and take away drive?

almostcool5
06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
if you are on the swingarm: rear link pointed down toward the rear increases drive, rear link more level or up toward the rear takes away drive.

catgo22
06-05-2010, 05:05 AM
Agree with Graff... We use 375 RR and a 7" backspace wheel on RR at feature time. 104 underrail with longbar set low on frame. Pull rod to left. We also add bite at feature time. Have 3/8 static rear steer. Roll in w/o much brake then giddyup.

pmiracing
06-05-2010, 10:10 AM
Thanks Guys for all the help, the car was a lot better last night. I cut the fuel cell and battery box out and moved them both all the way to the right. That still was 1/2% off on left side, but a 25lb. weight on the RR got the last bit. The car had so much more side bite all through the corner and powered hard off the corners. It did get a little tight in the middle if I didn't drive it in hard enough, but that can be fixed. When we ran that soft RR setup our car was junk, it had so little side bite it wouldn't even hike up and it was like ice skating through the corners.