Thinking about FASTRACK

[DK1]

I'm thinking about jumping out of my street stock and into a Late Model and run in the FASTRACK series. Can anyone give me some info as to what I'm getting into? Or is it as simple as the rules make it? Whats the difference between a 602 and 604? Any info would be great!!!!!!!!

[dirty white boy]

604 got 50 more hp an a lil more tq,..an the aluminum heads help with weight on car....gotta run hoosiers....an i think the 602 gets a lil more spoiler ant sure bout that tho'

[Mud Dobber]

Do not try the 602 unless they change the rules. It is between 80 and 100 hp. The 602 is allowed taller spoiler braces but they don't help. Trust ME!! I run at Fastrack sanctioned tracks but it is a waste of money to pay your dues unless you are going to run the touring series events or if you want to protest. I can't run the whole season or run two to three time a week so I just save my $100 AND STAY HOME WHEN THE TOURING SERIES COME TO TOWN. It cost alot more to run than a street stock the Hoosiers work a lot better but do not last no where near as long as the Good Years did. So expect to buy a new rr every race or two and a rf and lr every three races I dont know if all tracks are that bad on tires but ours was. Hope this helps.

[DK1]

why not a 602? I've never run a late model, i'd be moving up from street stocks. I'm just looking for something that would be good to start with for a year or 2 while i get seat time. The right carb probably makes a huge difference on create motors right?

[JTSjet]

There's nothing wrong with the 602. If your objective is just to get a feel for a late model type car, go for it. There's a lot of guys, so i hear, that have made them competitive against a 604. The problem is, like Mud said, it presents some set up issues because of the weight, the spoiler isn't a definite advantage and less horsepower will almost never help you (especially since even the 604 is underpowered anyway with this tire package). If just starting out in a crate, you will be at a disadvantage just learning the car. You will add to your disadvantage by being short on hp going with the 602.

[Mud Dobber]

DK1, there is nothing wrong with the 602. I have run a 602 for two years and the only reason was money. Like Jet said if you are just looking to get seat time its fine, but if you want to be competitive you will have to go with a 604. Chris Steele, Brad Hall and Mike Phegar (sp) all ran 602's last year and all went to 604's. The Hoosiers have a lot more bite and they do not spin like the Good Years. This made the 604's faster and hurt the 602's because when the track got slick the 604's would be spinning and the 602's did not spin as much due to lack of horsepower. Fastrack givs you a 150 lbs weight break for running the 602 but your motor is around 50 lbs heavier. You have to weight 2250. Getting down to this weight is hard to do and keep your %'s is almost impossible. You can get this low by buying all of the low weight stuff but by the time you buy all of this you could have bought a 604. Carbs do make some difference but Chris told me the biggest difference between any carb he dynoed was around seven horsepower. I run typically 6th to 12th out of a 24 car field. The biggest problem is quailifing. When the track is wet the 604's are hard to keep up with. If money is not an issue I would go ahead and get the 604 if it is get the 602. I race for fun because the most money my car makes is when it is in the Gararge.lol. Good luck with which ever you choose.

[doublehracefab]

Mud Dobber check you private messages

Thanks

[DK1]

so would i be better off buying a motor used? From GM? Or from some engine builder? The all should be the same but I'm guessing there is a difference?

[Mud Dobber]

If you buy a used motor I would try to buy one from someone you know or trust. (RMP's, proformance, Maintenance) If you buy a RM motor and you are going to run fastrack make sure it has the Fastrack seals not the RM/GM seals because Fastrack said that they were not going to allow them in 2011. The only problem with the new motors is some have more power than others. They are supposed to be better than they used to be but I don't know this for a fact. Just what I have been told. When you have you motor rebuilt they take it to the max on specs. So you get a few more hp.

[JTSjet]

i have found crate engine racing to be a little different than what my first inclination was when i initially got into it. i figured you would need to chase every possible horsepower there is to get to have a shot at any success whatsoever. that isn't necessarily true. i could be wrong on my numbers here, but i'd bet i'm not too far off but... you could go buy a brand new 604 and have it blueprinted and dyno'd with the fanciest set of headers, carb and fuel you can find for say, $11,000. OR you could go buy a good used non-blueprinted engine that was dyno'd and tuned for pump gas for less than half of that. i would be surprised if there would be a 20hp difference. fuel/carb selection for the engine is just as important for driveability and longevity as it is for performance. maximize what you have to work with but don't bother breaking the bank to do it. it's all about corner speed.

a whole other subject but if you can gear a 604 car right on the money for the setup, that's worth more than any "huge" hp gain out there JMO

[dirty white boy]

DK1, there is nothing wrong with the 602. I have run a 602 for two years and the only reason was money. Like Jet said if you are just looking to get seat time its fine, but if you want to be competitive you will have to go with a 604. Chris Steele, Brad Hall and Mike Phegar (sp) all ran 602's last year and all went to 604's. The Hoosiers have a lot more bite and they do not spin like the Good Years. This made the 604's faster and hurt the 602's because when the track got slick the 604's would be spinning and the 602's did not spin as much due to lack of horsepower. Fastrack givs you a 150 lbs weight break for running the 602 but your motor is around 50 lbs heavier. You have to weight 2250. Getting down to this weight is hard to do and keep your %'s is almost impossible. You can get this low by buying all of the low weight stuff but by the time you buy all of this you could have bought a 604. Carbs do make some difference but Chris told me the biggest difference between any carb he dynoed was around seven horsepower. I run typically 6th to 12th out of a 24 car field. The biggest problem is quailifing. When the track is wet the 604's are hard to keep up with. If money is not an issue I would go ahead and get the 604 if it is get the 602. I race for fun because the most money my car makes is when it is in the Gararge.lol. Good luck with which ever you choose.
im thinkin bout a 602 to crate race on good year g-50 or g-45s....on a 1/2 mile step banked wide turn clay track,..what your thought on motor??? would a 602 keep up??

[Mud Dobber]

I usually try to stay on smaller tracks. I watched Chris Steele run on the Good Years at wythe and he did good with his 602 he finished 4th but he stayed up high and kept his momentum up. Chris only turned his motor 6200 rpms. Stop and go tracks seem to hurt the 602. So i guess what I am trying to say is, yes I think it will run with them. Out run them no but run with them yes.

[Chris Steele]

If your looking for a car, mine is for sale. It is listed on the crate classified section of 4M and soon it's going on RacingJunk.com. With the 602 in my GRT the numbers always came out right, but like dobber said mine has all the magnesium stuff on it you can get to save weight. With one piece of lead that weighs 15lbs my car was usually 2285 after the race. I don't like to cut it too close on weight, especially when 35lbs aint gonna hurt.

The new 602's have lighter pistons in them and thinner rings. Now you have less weight and less drag than before. We have always been able to compete with the 604's in the past, but I agree with Dobber....the tires might be the reason the 602 aint as good as before. Not to mention the 80-100 hp difference in between the 604 and 602 that we have proven on the dyno.

[Racer63]

Chris, If I was looking for a new 602 ( we have to run them ) what would be the date on the motor that would tell me it has the newer pistons and rings?

[Chris Steele]

Not sure on the date....call Chris Knight at City Chevrolet and tell him to send you the new style 602 and he will get it to ya! 800-763-2489

[Racer63]

I've bought springs from them on your advice but unfortunately we have to buy our motors form a dealer in DE that the track partners with and puts there own seals on. Maybe I'll call him and see if he can tell me what to look for. I'm sure the guys we have to buy them from have no clue and I don't know how much inventory they have sitting around.

[#1loser]

look up www.race-1.com brad hibbards has some good imput on the 602 and 604 he is a awsome builder and helpfull im new to the class i wouldent run the 602 y start with some thing thats not right just some thing ya have to fix later better % makes a better car

[RacerX10]

If you get the %'s where you want them on a 602, by my math a 602 should be dead nuts equal to a 604 in straight line acceleration .. and a 602 at 150 lbs lighter should get thru the corners a lot better.

Nesmith 602 cars weigh 2200, the 604 weighs 2350.

I don't have any experience with either, but I'm about to build a car and figured that the 602 would be the way to go on a short track with that much of a weight break.

Thoughts ?

[hms_11]

We built a crate car last year with the idea that the 602 weight break was worth the lost horsepower. Here is what we discovered:

This car had lightweight everything and we just barely got the car light enough to take advantage of the 602. We ended up with absolutely no lead in the car and set our % using fuel load and by moving the fuel cell and battery. This was a 1 3/4" black front 2007 Rocket, mag rear, mag trans, mag bell, gunddrilled axles, carbon driveshaft, hell the thing even had "light weight" zeus buttons. This was with a 200lb driver and we would set the car to be about 25lbs above min weight after the feature.

We run 2 tracks regularly, one is a 5/8mile and one is a 1/3 mile bullring. The 602 was fine at the 1/3 mile and we never felt like we were fighting a losing battle with the 602. Most of the features at the 1/3 mile were won by 602 cars. On the 5/8 it was a different story. We found that the powerband on the 602 seemed to short and we were constantly chasing gearing. If we geared the car to come out of the corner we would get passed about 2/3 of the way down the straight. If we geared for the straights we couldnt keep it turned high enough to come out of the corner. Now I do have to say that our car would roll the corner faster then just about every other car out there. But it was a constant battle, win in the corners, lose it all down the straight.

Next year we are running a 604. If we were just running the short tracks we probably wouldn't bother but the 1/2 mile and bigger really show the difference. JMO

[DIRTRAYCER]

but I am speaking from experience and you can just forget running equal to the good 604s with good equipment and good Drivers ,while running the 602 ! Not sure what math you used and I am not trying to be smart here, but the 602 Factory is 60 -90 + Horses Down to the 604 Factory ! The 602 is only making around 330 H.P the 604 is now at 400 + ! If you figure weight to Horsepower ratio the 602 is 6.8 lbs per Horse at 2,200 lbs! The 604 is 5.8 lbs per horse at 2350 lbs! The 602 is still carrying 1 lb per horsepower more than the 604, as well as the 604 can handle more RPMs allowing them to carry much more gear ! The 604 would have to carry 2750 lbs. to a 602 at 2200 lbs. to have the same weight to horsepower ratio if my math is right ! Its just plain and simple the 602 is a waste of time and money if you are going to run under current rules in FASTRAK , Nesmith and desire to run up front ! Plus you cant get your %s right with the 602 at the minimum weight, assuming you could even get there. We cant !

[RacerX10]

The 602 was fine at the 1/3 mile and we never felt like we were fighting a losing battle with the 602. Most of the features at the 1/3 mile were won by 602 cars. On the 5/8 it was a different story. We found that the powerband on the 602 seemed to short and we were constantly chasing gearing. If we geared the car to come out of the corner we would get passed about 2/3 of the way down the straight. If we geared for the straights we couldnt keep it turned high enough to come out of the corner. Now I do have to say that our car would roll the corner faster then just about every other car out there. But it was a constant battle, win in the corners, lose it all down the straight.

Next year we are running a 604. If we were just running the short tracks we probably wouldn't bother but the 1/2 mile and bigger really show the difference. JMO

This is exactly what I expected based on the numbers I was running. Thank you VERY much for the feedback.

The local track here is 1/4 mile and more often than not is dry. Also, I'm a 150 lb driver.

[RacerX10]

Not sure what math you used and I am not trying to be smart here, but the 602 Factory is 60 -90 + Horses Down to the 604 Factory ! The 602 is only making around 330 H.P the 604 is now at 400 + ! If you figure weight to Horsepower ratio

"Horsepower" and "Weight" are irrelevant.

You need to be looking at torque, mass, initial velocity, μk (kinetic friction) and distance.

At 200 meters, the 602 vs 604 (both of which are near enough to 400 ft-lb of torque to not matter) it's nearly a wash for that distance. I'll grant you that when you run things out a bit longer (as on a 1/3 or 1/2 mile track) the 604 comes out ahead but for the shorter tracks, there's nothing in it and I suspect the better corner entry on a lighter car wins the day (all other things being equal)

[DIRTRAYCER]

""Horsepower" and "Weight" are irrelevant.

You need to be looking at torque, mass, initial velocity, μk (kinetic friction) and distance.

At 200 meters, the 602 vs 604 (both of which are near enough to 400 ft-lb of torque to not matter) it's nearly a wash for that distance. I'll grant you that when you run things out a bit longer (as on a 1/3 or 1/2 mile track) the 604 comes out ahead but for the shorter tracks, there's nothing in it and I suspect the better corner entry on a lighter car wins the day (all other things being equal) " RacerX10

RacerX10,
I do believe that weight and horsepower are very relevant, we will just have to agree to disagree on that ! I understand your arguement ! But you are assuming too much with way too many variables ! As I stated the 604 allows a car to carry close to 40 points lower in gear! That most definitely would affect the first 200 meters! Believe me , we see it every week as we run a 602 on tracks that are 4/10, 3/8 miles ! You are not taking into consideration, for another Traction and at what point Traction is lost ! The Hoosier 200 allows the 604s to get more power and torque to the ground than the Old GoodYears did ! We consistently get pulled off the Corners and on Restarts ! You can sit down with a calculator and punch it as long as you want and you may be able to come up with a mathematical formula to show equality between the 2 with a 150 lb weight break, but try it on the Track , and I think you will find out what everyone running except for hms11 has found and that is the 602 WILL NOT run with the 604 UNDER THE CURRENT RULES ! I would like to know where He runs , if we could get there I would love to run, because everywhere we go, the 604 is DOMINANT ! Just think about it, do you honestly believe if Drivers like Davenport,Diemel,Buckingham,Peger,Blair, etc. felt that the 602 was Equal to or better, that they would all be running the 604 ! Ask Chris Steele ? I am not talking theories here, I am talking real world on track experience ! I wish you the best of luck with the 602 ! I hope we can get a 604 soon !

[DIRTRAYCER]

Could you please tell me what tracks you are running where 602s are beating 604s weekly ! Very interesting ! Thanks !

[RacerX10]

I'd be interested in seeing a year's worth of results on a < 1/2 mile track with a good field of cars so we can see how the 602's do vs the 604's.

Surely somebody's track has posted that information ?

[hms_11]

Brighton Speedway, Ontario
I just did some checking, the 602's did not dominate but they did win more features 6 for the 602 vs 4 for the 604's

To be fair, this is the first year that crate lates have been at this track (DIRT PRO late model) and most of the drivers in the class (myself included) came from either street stocks or IMCA/UMP style modifieds the year before.

The 602's never seemed to have any problem hooking up, no matter how slicked off it was the 602 cars could come out of the corner and just mash the gas, our biggest problems with the 602 cars was fighting a constant throttle tight situation for quite a few of the drivers (I had a huge throttle push problem). The 604 cars seemed to need a little foot work to hook up once it really slicked off, but no real hook up problems with them either.

Like I said before, we are running a 604 next year, overall I beleive it is more cost-effective and easier to get the % right on the car without going nuts with ultra-light stuff. Let alone the better motor to have if your on anything over 1/3 mile. JMO

[RacerX10]

Like I said before, we are running a 604 next year, overall I beleive it is more cost-effective and easier to get the % right on the car without going nuts with ultra-light stuff. Let alone the better motor to have if your on anything over 1/3 mile. JMO

That may be reason enough to go with the 604

Ease of use.

[Lazer-10]

At our track most of the cars are 604's but the top 3 in points all year were 602's and the point champ beat out many of the WOO late Models to Qualify for their tour race and finished 16 in there feature. Another 602 missed qualifing by one spot 602's are a GOOD motor will actually help getting off the corner without burning up tires PS I know I dont spell that well but you will figure itt out

[DIRTRAYCER]

At our track most of the cars are 604's but the top 3 in points all year were 602's and the point champ beat out many of the WOO late Models to Qualify for their tour race and finished 16 in there feature. Another 602 missed qualifing by one spot 602's are a GOOD motor will actually help getting off the corner without burning up tires PS I know I dont spell that well but you will figure itt out

That is amazing, that a 602 Crate qualified for a W.O.O. Touring race and finished 16th in the Feature ! With the 602 we have always ran well 1/2 way through the Feature against the 604s , we just dont seem to fall off as much but Qualifying has always been tough when the track is tacky and the 604s can hook ! The Supers at Our Track 3/8 mile- Qualify over 2 seconds faster than the fastest 604 ! And we have some good 604s !!! What W.O.O. Tour Race was it that a 602 made the field and ran 16th ?

[dynoman14]

Looks like a great thread. All things being equal in any race car, any series, I will take the engine that makes 100 more HPand weighs almost 100# lighter on the nose and up high where the heads are. I have engine dyno'd and chassis dyno'd probably 250-604's and only 10-602's and the best 602 was still about 50HP down to the best 604. For the extra $2000 I don't think you can take equal cars and make the 602 improve as much as the difference in engine.

Carbs are a huge difference but that can be said about both engines, I still think the biggest gain that can be made on any race engine is matching the burn curve of the fuel you are running to the engine you are running. This is done thru matching your carb and distributor to the acceleration rate of your engine. 602, 604 SB-2 Cup it makes the biggest difference of anything I have tested in 25 years on my Inertia Chassis dyno ( we concentrate on acceleration factor, and instantaneous acceleration) .

I like the 602's and have made good power gains with them but the nose weight is not possible to overcome, and after all handling and maintaining corner speed is the key to making any race car fast. Less nose = better rear % which is a big key at most tracks, especially when you are trying to keep chassis free from the middle off.

Running way less power ( down 200hp ) is not impossible to win as one of my good customers ( Bobby Dauderman ) won a Super race last year in his 604, but track conditions were right and he started up front and had luck go his way.

[kevin3673]

You're very helpful to me!!!