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[Triple Nicklll]

We're building a new power plant for this year...WTH...there are so many combos out there it's mind boggeling! We run UMP mod, primarily high banked 1/4 and 3/8ths. Our primary engine from last year is a 388 and don't get me wrong it's healthy...$14,000 healthy...but it seemed like we lacked power through the middle off....although we tried several different combo's we just needed more power.

So this year we decided to build another engine and use the 388 for backup....this is a ground up build, all new parts. We are contemplating anything from a 400 to a 415 to a 421.

I'm really leaning towards a 421 23 degree power plant. I spoke to Chad at Mullins and he recommended a run of the mill 400. He said that with a 23 degree motor and AFR heads he could build a 720 horse 400. I would probably go with them, we just don't want to spend another 15,000 for Saturday night racing and a few specials.

We used to build all of our own engines until 4 years or so ago, so here we go again building our own.

On a 400 build this is waht we're thinking

Dart Little M 4.125 bore
Eagle 4340 3.75 stroke 2.448 mains and 2.10 inch rods
Eagle H beam 6.0 rods
Diamond Pistons 14.4 compression (depending on head chambers) Our 388 has 15.3 to 1, should we bump the compression to around the same on this one?

This would be the short block, haven't decided AFR or Dart for the heads yet.
Probably top it off with a Stealth 830 carb.
This would be on 113 gas

Our 388 was built with the Dart Platnum heads topped off with TRD shaft rockers. We have been pretty happy with them, what do you guys think so far? Good, bad, and the ugly please. Thanks in advance guys, been awhile since we have done this so your input is appreciated!

[soonersublime]

I don't know the UMP rules but I have been hearing some really good things with the LS1 engines. Something to look into at least.

[Triple Nicklll]

I know they make big power, but costs big money to build. The other thing I've heard is crankshaft issues. I don't know of anyone in this area running them. That Baldwin race engines has a package for around $16000 I think.

[hpontap]

I try to stay away from the longer stroke engines in a modified and run better heads to make the power and keep the piston speed under control. I also think they are more driveable engines with smoother curves.

[fast_crew]

If your 388 is big bore short stroke, how many rpms you turning it? I agree with Hp the shorter stroke will be more driveable in the slick with those 8" tires. May just need a cam change and more gear.

[Triple Nicklll]

That motor has always had me a little puzzled anyway. 1/4 mile tracks with a 9" and 6:50 gear we used to turn 8000 at with a different motor...this one on a Q/C we have to run a 7:15 or lower to turn 8000. It will come out of the corner great with a lower gear but we run out of straight away speed. We went down to a 6:50 at one of the tracks we run and I was flat footed coming off watching everyone pulling me out. The current setup on the 388 is a big bore short stroke with Dart Platinum 220 cc runner 2.08/1.60's. The cam is a Comp roller 4/7 swap (which I don't think I will have another one) Gross lift .707/.672 T&D shaft rockers with 1.6/1.5's .020 tappet lift Duration is .050 260/266 and seperation is 106...

I've had several 383's throughout the years and this one has more goody's and cost me more money than any of them and it doesn't seem to pull as hard as any of them.

[bushracing67]

try a different cam in that 388... might save you another 14g

[hpontap]

Definately something off there. With a QC and 6.07's on a big 1/4 mile, I will be at 8,400 at the end of the straights with a mild 377.

[Triple Nicklll]

Spoke with Comp tech line today, he said everything looked good cam/head combination. He said that he would probably degree the cam in at 100 centerline and try that before buying another cam. He did say that the 4/7 swap cams tend to choke a motor a bit but offer smooth power in return. I spoke to Dale Munson last year at Spoon about the cams and he said the same thing. When he had a 4/7 swap cam he was 30 to 50 points higher in gear than with a standard firing cam....not sure yet what we're going to do. We bought a 420 over the weekend and probably working on a trade for a 388 HOVIS so this one might not see the track again. I'll post and let you all know.

[stock car driver]

Spoke with Comp tech line today, he said everything looked good cam/head combination. He said that he would probably degree the cam in at 100 centerline and try that before buying another cam. He did say that the 4/7 swap cams tend to choke a motor a bit but offer smooth power in return. I spoke to Dale Munson last year at Spoon about the cams and he said the same thing. When he had a 4/7 swap cam he was 30 to 50 points higher in gear than with a standard firing cam....not sure yet what we're going to do. We bought a 420 over the weekend and probably working on a trade for a 388 HOVIS so this one might not see the track again. I'll post and let you all know.

Call comp tomorrow and talk to the guy sitting a chair away from the one you got today and youll get a whole different answer!!

I fail to believe you spent 14k on a motor and cant get the answers you need from the builder, thats ludicrous. Something is awry in your story here.

[Triple Nicklll]

Call comp tomorrow and talk to the guy sitting a chair away from the one you got today and youll get a whole different answer!!

I fail to believe you spent 14k on a motor and cant get the answers you need from the builder, thats ludicrous. Something is awry in your story here.

Are you serious?

I disagree with my engine builder that's why I'm not happy that I spent 14K on a motor with MY CRANK AND RODS and can't get answers or an explanation as to why it doesn't run like a 16000 engine.

If you have nothing constructive to add...go to the gossip section...and in case you haven't bought and or built an open mod engine lately....thats kinda the going rate...if you use the parts that are in mine without machine work your looking at 12000 in parts alone.....don't believe that...call around

All others thanks for the info...calling one other place tomorrow...this ones going on the stand to start then go from there.

[stock car driver]

I gave you help full info.

Call comp tomorrow and ask the guy next to the guy you talked to today. Ill betcha a million bucks you get different info.

I have called two days in a row in fact Ive called more than that. They are idiots....

Seems like your hung up on the price you spent youve mentioned it so many times Im guessing your running a speedway claimer rotating assembly, lol.

[stock car driver]

fyi eagle crank and rods are not 12k motor material buddy. Thats more like cheap claimer stuff....

[soonersublime]

This is a 14k build worth doing.

AFR Eliminator Competition Heads 227cc (cnc ported and polished)
Titanium Intake Valves
Titanium Retainers
PAC Valve springs
Jesel shaft rockers
Edelbrock Super Victor Intake (ported and polished)
JE Pistons
Oliver Rods
Callies dragonslayer crank
Custom Billet Schneider Roller Cam and Lifters

Do this w/ a 400 block or go stroker w/ a 350 and you got 700+HP
That's one bad motha.

[Triple Nicklll]

fyi eagle crank and rods are not 12k motor material buddy. Thats more like cheap claimer stuff....

If you took the time to read the post you'll see A...I don't want to spend the money and B the Eagle stuff was for the new motor.

The old motor motor has
Dart Little M
Callies Magnum
Oliver Rods
Diamond Pistons
Dart Pro Platinum Heads Ported and Polished to match
Eldebrock Intake
Titanium Intake Valves
Comp roller and lifters
T&D Shaft Rockers
Water and Oil Drain Backs

Now go play with your street stock....aren't you some kinda champion or something? Can't believe a person of your stature would have time for the pee-ons like us....go back to the gossip section.

Enjoy your pathetic day bud!

[stock car driver]

Did you call comp again yet??

Post back and say thanks after you do.

If you don't its obvious your just wasting everyone's time on here.

Pathetic day? Life must be really bad for you... It couldnt get much better for me unless I was in Hawaii in the winter I suppose!

[Triple Nicklll]

Old Build was Alky, spoke to Jones Brothers Cam Design. Mike thought the cam had great numbers and was real close to what he recommends. Once I pulled my paperwork on the build I found the heads are the 230CC runners. Mike thought it was possible when they ported and polished them it opened the runners up too much causing the engine to lose low end torque. We're going to pull the heads and get them flowed again to see the numbers on them.

[stock car driver]

Hard to believe he's wasting your time, being that it is your choice to view, log in, and respond. LOL Maybe you could call COMP for him as well?

I'm not sure why you get enflamed in these arguments as you do, being that you advertise with this screen name.

Certainly I've picked my share of arguments (especially back in the political days of the the tailgate section) but I'd never tie my business to this account.

Just food for thought!

Best of luck on the new motor Triple Nickill! Also, is the current motor alky or gas? You specified on the new build, but not the old.

:p

Food for thought.... If Im not worried about it effecting my hobby (you call it business) should you be???

[dynoman14]

TriplNickl,
I think part of what you are feeling on the track is reversion in the induction system that affected greatly by the signal pulse of the 4-7 swap cam and needs to be compensated for in the headers as the cylinder coupling will be way off. It is real easy to see on the dyno idling or in the pits with the air cleaner off. Alky hates reversion more than gas because there is twice as much fuel in emulsion as there is with gas and when you put the brakes on the signal pulse the intake air speed slow and drops the emulsified fuel and turns it back to liquid alky and air...that condensate is what is bogging the engine up the straight cause I know once you pass the flag stand she probably runs like all hell breaking loose.

The 4-7 came about for drag racers, comp-elim that leave the line at 10,000rpm and don't look back. Sold to oval trackers as smoother power delivery cause it kills bottom end torque.

The cheapest alternative to turning your engine back into a torque monster like you used to have is go back to a standard camshaft and I prefer to go smaller on the .050 duration like 258-263 106 lobe sep, intake installed 100, but then go big on the rockers like 1.7-1.8 intake and 1.6 exhaust, gets the intake off the seat in a hurry and lets that alky get to boiling in the intake runners. You are looking at $300 on the cam and maybe $500 on the T&D Intake Rockers. If that combo don't pull like a mule on steroids something else is wrong.

[Triple Nicklll]

TriplNickl,
I think part of what you are feeling on the track is reversion in the induction system that affected greatly by the signal pulse of the 4-7 swap cam and needs to be compensated for in the headers as the cylinder coupling will be way off. It is real easy to see on the dyno idling or in the pits with the air cleaner off. Alky hates reversion more than gas because there is twice as much fuel in emulsion as there is with gas and when you put the brakes on the signal pulse the intake air speed slow and drops the emulsified fuel and turns it back to liquid alky and air...that condensate is what is bogging the engine up the straight cause I know once you pass the flag stand she probably runs like all hell breaking loose.

The 4-7 came about for drag racers, comp-elim that leave the line at 10,000rpm and don't look back. Sold to oval trackers as smoother power delivery cause it kills bottom end torque.

The cheapest alternative to turning your engine back into a torque monster like you used to have is go back to a standard camshaft and I prefer to go smaller on the .050 duration like 258-263 106 lobe sep, intake installed 100, but then go big on the rockers like 1.7-1.8 intake and 1.6 exhaust, gets the intake off the seat in a hurry and lets that alky get to boiling in the intake runners. You are looking at $300 on the cam and maybe $500 on the T&D Intake Rockers. If that combo don't pull like a mule on steroids something else is wrong.

Dynoman....thanks for the indepth explanation on whats going on...your exactly right sir....thanks! Once we get done with the 420 we're going to tear that motor down and that's the first thing going is the cam shaft....I will take your advice....thanks again sir!

[stockcar5]

so after 4 people told you to either change cams or call the cam company you finally decide to switch cams after a con artist tells you to..LOL!

[hpontap]

The 230+ size runner heads ( ported and polished ) you have on it are not helping anywhere but up top.
Your cam should pull to what the 23* heads will do also. It is a Comp Cams 4/7 swap and not a OWM traction control cam that you have correct? That cam should work well.
Put a set of good 210-220 runner heads on it and you will blow the tires off of it
I have a couple of 377-380's with more cam in them and running smaller heads that pull with lot bigger engines off the turns. Keep the port velocity up and you will like the engine a lot more.