LR setup

[rubbinsracin]

I have been thinking about a LR setup that we have not tried before. we have thought about running a dummy shock (0comp-0reb) behind LR with a spring and running a gas traction shock in front (6comp-0Reb) with 125psi. We run on a 3/8th mile mild banked track that stays hooked up most of the time. or would it be better to run the traction shock with a 7c-3r or a straight 4? :confused:

[xray]

no reb at all = no good

[jedclampit]

Why do you want to do this?

[rubbinsracin]

I kinda figured no rebound would be a bad thing. lol. im just a pretty big guy. around 300lbs and the car doesnt like to get up on the bars with me in it so i have thought about trying it. i think we would run a 1394 with the gas traction shock(6c-0r) with about 125psi. were just looking to try different things to see what happens.

[AmickRacing]

If there's plenty of traction in the track, sometimes a flatter car that's not up on the bars can be faster. There's even some guys running the shock/spring in front of the LR when it's tacky and fast and doing pretty decent.

[lovinlatemodels]

If your running a 6/0 on the front of the rear with 125 psi of gas instead of a 4 valve in the back try a 6/2 or even a 8/2 with the spring along with the 6/0 on the front. Your were asking before about LS % and trying to get the car up on the bars what do the other 3 corners have for shocks and do you have your car rocked up on the left side or is your car sitting flat with you in it.

[rubbinsracin]

The car has always ran well in the past but this is my first year in this chassis. ran an 01 shaw before we got this 04 shaw this car was ran with a driver that was about 160 and i am about 290 so we were struggling with getting the car up on the bars because our LS% was like 60-61% with me in it. we took some lead that was just behind the LR tire on the down rail for the fuel cell and moved the fuel cell over so it is center over the rearend so as burnoff occurs it occurs evenly across the rear and set the wedge to about 120 lbs with me in it. which got our LS% down to like 54% after we did this the car was much much better the next week out(i was actually passing people in my second week in a LM)

i guess we are just looking for a little more side bite and bite coming off the corners. on film it looks like what is separating me from the back of the average guys to the front of the average guys. as a first year driver in this class(ran IMCA hobby and stock cars, i have helped on LM for about 5 years), and running a steel head motor(we have to weigh 250lbs more than the guys up front running a 602)

[lovinlatemodels]

Glad to hear the fuel cell and lead change helped you might need to give some more info on your set up shocks springs and even bar location to work out some problems. Even you J bar location can help alot. What worked for a 160 lb driver might not work for you. You might need a different spring package.

[rubbinsracin]

yeah. we are learning what worked in the past might not work for me. ill try to give you some more info on my setup too

LF is a 500 with old style afco DA set at straight 5
RF is a 375 with old style afco DA set at 4c/6r
LR is a 250 with 1397c-3r mounted behind
RR is a 225 with 1394 mounted adhead

5th is @ 35" with a 1373 with 300lb
6th has 400 lbs spring

caster&Camber are set to our shaw sheets we got from Kevin.
front stagger is about 1/2"
Rear stagger is about 5 1/2"
pressures are LF 10 RF 12
LR 6 RR 10

Jbar is mounted just below the centerline of the pinion and about 9 3/4 rake one the frame side

LU mounted in 2nd hold from top on frame (can go one hole up) about 22*
LL is about 5* uphill to frame (can increase it one hole up)
RU is about 19* uphill to frame (can go up or down)
RL is supposed to be set to level with ride height in lower hole (right from kevin shaw)

54% Left
56% Rear
120ish lbs wedge

[29racin]

set up sounds good . I run same thing on 07 shaw with the exeption of shock settings. have same problem i am gonna try 2 stage spring on rf and see what happens. . i am tight on throttle entry and loose off trottle middle but ok on exit. wht does the lr shock sping front or rear do? any other suggestions would be appreciated.

[rubbinsracin]

im good on entry and middle but need some drive off. i going to try the setup i have now for one more week and see if we can just do some tuning to develop some more drive on exit. if i cant get to much more drive with tuning, im going to try a 425lb LF spring. i know it will free me up on entry and in the middle but i think i can manage that if i can get some more forward drive off.

@29racin - not sure what you are asking, but i think you are referring to what i originally asked about. by mounting the gas pop up shock in front with the regular shock/spring combo you have on the car you basically help stay up on the bars off throttle and creates more drive if i understand correctly.

can someone chime in with some more knowledge???, preferably someone who runs a dual LR shock setup and let us know what works for them. both 29racin and I run big 3/8 an 1/2 tracks and pretty similar chassis, so the info we can get should pretty much work well for both of us.

[lovinlatemodels]

Are you running a traction shock on the LR along with the 7/3 shock on the spring and if so what is it. You could try a softer LR spring the add preload on that spring can help lift the LR. Also with that much rear weight you could also move your lift bar back some that also on traction coming off the corner.

[rubbinsracin]

no currently we are running only the 7/3 with a 250 spring mounted behind axle. should we leave everything the way it is and just put a traction shock in front? we start the race with about 56% rear and finish wiht about 54% with burnoff. we are trying to be setup for the end of the race.

[jedclampit]

Some things I would try:
-raise your ballast if you can
-More bar angle in the lr rods upper and lower @ frame
-indexing lr upper rod @ birdcage
-rock up the left side of car 4-6 turns
-more lr (275-300)spring
-less rr spring (200)

more rf spring....not sure what the norm is for those cars 375 sounds light with your engine

[rubbinsracin]

- ballast is as high as it can go.
- LR Top bar is in the second hole from top on frame for heat and then for feature we move it to the top hole. LR lower might be able to go up one hole
- LR upper rod is all the way down on the birdcage
- i dont want to rock the car up unless its a last option because i dont want to mess the ride heights all up
- we have never went higher than a 250 on the LR...maybe worth a shot but i would have to go out and buy a spring or two
- might try the 200 on the RR. that would for sure allow the car to move over quicker.
- might try going up to a 425 on the RF. that would for sure loosen entry and middle but provide more drive off the corner.

[lindsey97]

I ran a 90"s shaw car last couple of years with a 602 in it and fought the same problem. We dropped our bite down to the 0 to 20lb range without driver, with basically the same setup. Car started working well then, but I think you will find it burying the right front frame rail in the ground. I think you will need to go to the 400 or maybe a 425 rf spring. Even though you take the static bite out, the dynamic bite will be there with the heavier rf spring.

[jedclampit]

Mess your ride heights up? When you take the turns back off, your ride heights will be exactly back where they were(if not something is bound up). Rocking up the left side is one of the quickest ways to wake up a flat car.
A lot is going on (to help your problem) with this seemingly crude/simple adjustment.

[rubbinsracin]

im just going to try leaving the shock and spring we have on it. maybe dial up a little more wedge and call it good for our next race which is June 4th.

[rubbinsracin]

alright guys. ran this weekend and car seemed to be the best it had been. we ended up running a straight 4c&r on the L and R with a 250 on the LR and and 200 on the RR. Ran a straight 5c/r 500 LF and 4c/6r w/ 375 RF. ran about 115lbs of wedge.

this being my 3rd race in a LM i did pretty well. ran 5th in my heat and then 14th in the feature. still need to work on my consistency. seem to have 2 or 3 good laps then a bad one then 2 or 3 good ones and so on. from heat to race this week all we did was scrape the mud off the car and go for the heat.

what effect would there be on the car if we just hooked up a 6c0r traction shock on the front with 125psi and changed nothing else?

[gadirtracer]

alright guys. ran this weekend and car seemed to be the best it had been. we ended up running a straight 4c&r on the L and R with a 250 on the LR and and 200 on the RR. Ran a straight 5c/r 500 LF and 4c/6r w/ 375 RF. ran about 115lbs of wedge.

this being my 3rd race in a LM i did pretty well. ran 5th in my heat and then 14th in the feature. still need to work on my consistency. seem to have 2 or 3 good laps then a bad one then 2 or 3 good ones and so on. from heat to race this week all we did was scrape the mud off the car and go for the heat.

what effect would there be on the car if we just hooked up a 6c0r traction shock on the front with 125psi and changed nothing else?

Possibly loosen entry if driver is letting car slam all the way down. Car should be easier to drive tho.
AND Tighten on throttle.

[racin29]

quick question i know on 05 shaw there are 5 adjustment holes for the 4bar is it the same on your 04 then check and see if your jbar runs straight or forward from frame to rearend (causes a roll issue) does it have the twm shaw cages on it?

[rubbinsracin]

yes we have the twm cages on it. and the jbar does go very very slightly forward when at static if i remember correctly. what kind of roll issue does this cause?

[racin29]

seems to bind when the car is flat have to "jerk" the car to get it to roll over couple options are to cut the frame bar out and move it ahead 2 inches or find a clevis style jbar bracket, this is what i chose to do, mounts the bar to the side of the frame mount this will free up the car a bit after we put the other mount on the car started its roll the way it is supposed to like i said before doing was having to set the car hard to get it to go, if your having problems finding the bracket ub machine makes one thats what i used

[rubbinsracin]

ic. well we were just under the car cleaning it the other day and i will climb back up under there and see if we have any rubbing or anything that looks like it will cause any bind. when you put the jack under the middle on the left side and jack the thing all the way up. there is no rubbing or binding that takes place as we checked that last week when we were worried about beind stuff. but i will double check for binding/rubbing that could be caused at speed by additional roll steer caused by turning....but i doubt we will see anything as the RR should move backwards...be it however little when the car rolls moving the bar away from any possible bind/rub

[racin29]

im not going to say there is a physical bind on the jbar, if i remember correctly there wasn't on my car, but there was a momentum bind, if that makes since if you get a chance to snoop this weekend look at some other cars a see how the bar is on theirs, i just know shaw has things very tight back there on these cars and the other mount is cheap $20-25 thing to try to get the car to get up on the bars easier, also are you using a chain stop or letting the axle ride on the frame on the lr

[racin29]

what size tires and offsets are you running

[racin29]

for 29racin, nice name, your loose middle problem is probably because of your tight entry, first things first, loosen up your entry raise rl bar, depending on where it is, put a 400 on the fr, probably what i would do, put heavier lf spring in, will only change entry

[rubbinsracin]

i will take it into consideration. we have a good jbar under it with good free heims in it. its goes up and down pretty well so i think were going to keep the car very close to where it is at now and continue to make small changes to make it better.

i do have the throttle extened out all the way it can. i have a ton of throttle travel. i just talked with my dad. who stores the car during the week say that the rear breaks looked like they were in need of being bleed as the gauge was needing to be pumped before the rears showed anything much for pressure. that could be part of why the car felt tight going in? we will get them bled and go from there.

also, would it be better to run a straight 4c/r with a traction shock or run a 7c3r with the traction shock?

[racin29]

that is driver feel most guys run a 6/2 behind, i would look at other areas first tho, shocks can win races yes but they are only going to do that to a second or third place car keeping it simple learn the car with basic shocks to begin with befor you get to crazy because they can also loose you races and set you back weeks of tuning

[rubbinsracin]

i think that is what we are going to do. little things. we have seen in other classes we raced, big swings are just that. one time you hit a homerun but you strike out the other 99 times.

to answer your earlier question, that i just saw, we run all 14" wheels with 5" offset

92s on all but the LR which is an 88. we usually set up for around 4.5" or 5" of stagger. we are required to run the WRS2 D55s with NOTHING done to them at all EXCEPT running some sand paper on them to put a scuff on em.

[LM14]

Think about what way your birdcage rotates on the LR corner during hike up. The back of the cage goes up towards the frame. Try a straight 4 or 35 shock on the back and a 62 or 82 shock in front. You are slowing hike with the shock being stiff on compression with the rotation of the birdcage. Soft compression on the back and soft rebound on the front doesn't limit birdcage rotation.

I would also consider going to a 200# LR spring. It will hike up faster with a softer spring. With the steel motor, go to a 425-450# RF spring and a 35 shock.

I think Shaw bases their setup % on a 200# driver. Their setup is without the driver in the car. Since you are bigger than that, put 95# of lead in the car. Some in the seat (represents your torso) and some just in front on the floor pan (represents your legs). Set your ride heights this way also. Get your percentages corrent to their baseline numbers that way and then remove the lead and write them down without the lead and that's your new baseline to compensate for your size.

You should also try to get the angle in the j-bar to 5-7" range with the bar at center of pinion height. That's a crutch you shouldn't need if everything else is right.

SPark

[racin29]

yes shaw's basic setup sheet weight wise is based off a 200 driver like grt but their ride heights are with you in the car if you set them without you your left side will be low, again making the car harder to turn, with driver in car you want your ls % in the 54.4 54.9 and rear 56 56.5 your bite is also high bring it down to 85 car will get in better and turn

[rubbinsracin]

hmmm never thought of setting the ride heights with me in the car. we usually set heights and set the car up close to where we think it needs to be then we put me in it and then fine tune it to where we need to be numbers wise and never thought about ride heights after my fat a$$ gets in the car lol

The car ran pretty well this week. still getting used to getting back on the gas heavy and letting the rear steer do the driving for me through the corner instead of try to pedal it through. i think i will try to dial down the wedge some next week, see if that makes it a little easier to learn. we have had a couple of specials lately where they track is used up come our feature so we have tried dialing up the static wedge for drive off.

im thinking about going to a 225 LR and a 200 RR with about 80ish lbs wedge and still leave the 375 spring up front because i like the feeling it gives going into the corner. just need to teach myself how to get back into it and really "turn right, to go left" with this 4 bar.

[LM14]

As it gets slicker try a lighter LR spring.

SPark

[4bangerhotrod]

you should really think about raising your whole LS up about a 1/2-1in and as the track slicks off add 3-4 turns to the LR before the feature this helps get the car started on the RF and adds a little bit of wedge in the car. it def helps the car turn and raisin the ride heights will help alot more than hurt with your weight you probably need all the help you can get, it helps the car get started rolling over and helps gain sidebite quicker. even alot of the chassis builders house cars raise the LS ride heights if that tells you anything

[rubbinsracin]

I think were going to take the 250 out of the LR and put a 225 in it. and go with about 80-90 lbs wedge. see how that makes the car feel. were trying to make small adjustments so as i get better i can become more comfortable with them. i know i can drive the car hard as it sits today, but i want to make small adjustments to really dial it in.

[racin29]

hey i want you to check something some time put a jack under the leftside right infront of the lr tire and jack the car up till the lr is just barely touching the ground and then measure from the bottom of the outside top frame bar down to the top of the birdcage just outside the upper 4bar plate basic starting point for hike is 18" if you not there get it there