Anyone running the newer camero's? like the 93 or newer ones?

[Racer #42]

Im needing some tech support and have a few questions. Thanks

[blacksmythx]

What do you need?

[Racer #42]

Man we got this car in on a trade and it has nice stuff. Just need a starting point on offsetts and weights and percentages and stuff. I run on a 1/4 mile D shape oval. Its dryslick 90% of the time. We gotta wiegh 3400 pounds. Thanks again. No one around here that i kno of is runnin these cars.

[blacksmythx]

1200 RF, 1100 LF, 200 RR, 250 LR. springs.
60# bite. Get the weight up high and move to the right as it gets slicker to help the car turn.
I know a "shock guy" and he picks 'em, nothing special though except the right front is one of those nearly no compression and all the rebound you can get deals.

Drive it straight and don't hit anything, it's a 4 banger with a big motor among a bunch of tanks.
If it still won't turn soften the left front.

Keep a spare set of everything for the front end. Don't reinforce the spindles, it'll knock the shock tower into the carburetor if you bang the RF.

How have you got the springs setup on the front?
Stock wheel pattern or adapters?
Floater rearend?
What engine?

[Racer #42]

Im not sure about the rates yet. Gonna look at it either tonight or tommorrow. It has the adapted 5 on 5 spacers on the front. (Real wide) lol. Yes sir it has a floater under it with a 358ci motor.

[blacksmythx]

Yep, if it's a 60" rear you need 2" spacers both sides. Run 4" offset wheels and make sure right side tires are exactly lined up.

[Egoracing]

Just a question, Why soften the LF to make it turn? On a late model to turn you soften the RF. The LF then gains more weight when you get off of the gas or hit the brakes pulling the car to the left while the softer RF gets the weight to roll over and load the RF tire more and dig it into the track.

[blacksmythx]

The only answer I have is the setup guides from chassis builders tell it that way and it has worked in the past. Also oral history from the old timers says "STIFF SPRING GETS THE WEIGHT" so it would seem as soon as you let off it would turn because the RF gets the weight. But we might be learning something here, I would like other late model guys to weigh in to clear this up. Maybe it has something to do with that 4 link slamming the LR in the ground when you go back to the gas? Lol!

[Dirtrunner35]

If you have too stiff of front springs in your car it will push!! You take out RF spring to help it push less, by doing this the left front spring gets more weight in a left hand turn making the left tire grip better. Helping the car to turn.

[Egoracing]

The only answer I have is the setup guides from chassis builders tell it that way and it has worked in the past. Also oral history from the old timers says "STIFF SPRING GETS THE WEIGHT" so it would seem as soon as you let off it would turn because the RF gets the weight. But we might be learning something here, I would like other late model guys to weigh in to clear this up. Maybe it has something to do with that 4 link slamming the LR in the ground when you go back to the gas? Lol!

Kinda what I thought, If you go by the stiffer spring gets the weight, which is true, then the LF stiffer would gain more weight than the RF and pull it into the turn. If teh RF is stiffer and it gains more weight it will pull the car to the right. The idea of stiffer RF has been dropped in late models MANY years ago and now it is finally go into some modifieds to run a stiffer LF and softer RF. We even did it on a dirt late model on asphalt and it worked there also.

[Dirtrunner35]

The stiffer spring will not pull the car in a turn. It puts more weight on it.

[Egoracing]

The stiffer spring will not pull the car in a turn. It puts more weight on it.

IF the stiffer spring is on the LF when you get off of the gas or on the brakes the weight will hit the LF more than the RF, the increased load will create added drag and will cause the car to turn towards the more loaded tire. Push a shopping cart with 4 24 packs of soda placed in the basket and see what happens. Now place all 4 on the LF corner of the cart. Now that tire is carrying more weight, push the cart again and see what happens.

[let-r-eat]

If your overloading the front tires and pushing you can't be in the gas!!!! Get in the GAS!!

[blacksmythx]

If your overloading the front tires and pushing you can't be in the gas!!!! Get in the GAS!!

That's what I'm talkin' about! Drive that push out of it! :D

[Egoracing]

If your overloading the front tires and pushing you can't be in the gas!!!! Get in the GAS!!

No, You can EAISLY have a push on entry on the gas and if you have a push while not on the gas or brake getting on the gas is going to put you into the wall.

[Dirtrunner35]

IF the stiffer spring is on the LF when you get off of the gas or on the brakes the weight will hit the LF more than the RF, the increased load will create added drag and will cause the car to turn towards the more loaded tire. Push a shopping cart with 4 24 packs of soda placed in the basket and see what happens. Now place all 4 on the LF corner of the cart. Now that tire is carrying more weight, push the cart again and see what happens.



So you're saying if the stiffer spring is on the right front, the car will pull to the right off the gas ? It's the caster that makes a car pull right or left. A stiffer lf spring will load the tire more in a left turn but your already turning the car.

I guess I would need to make my caster/camber equal, one of the springs stiffer and on a flat surface and slow down or hit the brake and see what happens.

[Egoracing]

So you're saying if the stiffer spring is on the right front, the car will pull to the right off the gas ? It's the caster that makes a car pull right or left. A stiffer lf spring will load the tire more in a left turn but your already turning the car.

I guess I would need to make my caster/camber equal, one of the springs stiffer and on a flat surface and slow down or hit the brake and see what happens.

The more loaded tire creates more drag PERIOD! No caster or camber change needed. 99% of the setups on late models are stiffer LF for this reason.

[Dirtrunner35]

Some great reading By Mark Ortiz.


Stiffening the right front spring, or adding preload to it, does load that tire more, and does mike it produce more corning force, in a left turn.

However, this comes at the expense of left front tire loading. The spring change can't change the total load on the front wheel pair, only the distribution of that total between the right front and left front. The spring change also can't change the total load on the rear wheel pair, the right wheel pair, or the left wheel pair, only the diagonally opposite wheel pair.

So rear wheel loads when cornering are also effected by the front springs. The total rear wheel load doesn't change, but it's right / left distribution changes, oppositely to the front wheels.

This means that with a stiffer RF spring, the front tires are loaded more unequally when cornering, and the rears are loaded more equally, than with a softer RF spring.

[Egoracing]

The only way to get more load to the front or rear is to put more weight on them. If you goto a lighter RF the chassis will roll onto the RF and place additional weight onto the tire placing more weight there than when was on the front statically. A tire will only hold X amount of force no matter HOW much you try to load it, if you are using all of X to try to turn and you over load it it is going to slip. Going to a lighter spring allow it to work easier. Adding a stiffer RF will also keep more load on the LR which can easily cause a push while on the throttle. Goto integra's web site and look at the dirt late model adjustments. To get the car to turn more positively you need to decrease the RF spring rate.

[bushracing67]

or going lighter on the rf creates a bind and has the same effect as going stiffer....

[Egoracing]

or going lighter on the rf creates a bind and has the same effect as going stiffer....

No, I have run down to a 300 on the RF on a dirt late model with NO binding and a 550-600 on the lf. The LF only gets the car into the turn and then is unloaded from the center off. I know of people that have run down to a 200 on the RF, that was to get it into a coil bind setup and they do work BUT you have to get the cars weight onto the tire. If you just put a link in to make it solid when it went into the corner it would just go straight to the wall.

[Dirtrunner35]

The only way to get more load to the front or rear is to put more weight on them. If you goto a lighter RF the chassis will roll onto the RF and place additional weight onto the tire placing more weight there than when was on the front statically. A tire will only hold X amount of force no matter HOW much you try to load it, if you are using all of X to try to turn and you over load it it is going to slip. Going to a lighter spring allow it to work easier. Adding a stiffer RF will also keep more load on the LR which can easily cause a push while on the throttle. Goto integra's web site and look at the dirt late model adjustments. To get the car to turn more positively you need to decrease the RF spring rate.


A lighter right front spring will put less weight on that tire. A lighter spring does not cause more weight to be there. Ok here is where you disagree. A lighter spring does NOT cause more g-force in a turn, so it can't put more weight on it.. You said this yourself, ( Adding a stiffer RF will also keep more load on the LR which can easily cause a push while on the throttle.) So putting a lighter spring in the RF, you make the left front work more. More roll does not mean more weight. You only have so much weight transfer in a car, when changing springs you change where it goes.The distribution of weight changes.

[Egoracing]

A lighter right front spring will put less weight on that tire. A lighter spring does not cause more weight to be there. Ok here is where you disagree. A lighter spring does NOT cause more g-force in a turn, so it can't put more weight on it.. You said this yourself, ( Adding a stiffer RF will also keep more load on the LR which can easily cause a push while on the throttle.) So putting a lighter spring in the RF, you make the left front work more. More roll does not mean more weight. You only have so much weight transfer in a car, when changing springs you change where it goes.The distribution of weight changes.

If you have 800 lbs on an 800lb RF spring it will be compressed 1 inch, If you put a 200 it will compress 4 inches and both will still be holding 800 lbs. The spring does not change the amount of weight on that corner of the car. it WILL change the amount it is holding during cornering due to G force and body roll. IF you have a 800lb RF and due to cornering forces you transfer 800 lbs to the right you will only compress it 1 inch and it will hold the chassis down. If you are running a 200 and transfer 800 it will compress 4 inches + it will allow the chassis to roll onto the spring lowering the spring top as the chassis sees it AND raising the weight center of the car as the spring sees it and the chassis WILL put more than the original 800 lbs of weight onto the spring due to the weight and spring top locations. The chassis sees the spring locations by the tops of the springs in relation to the weight centerline of th car. If the top is above that centerline the weight will not roll onto it, if it is below it will and the farther below the more weight will goto it. Don't believe me try this. Put 50 lbs on each end of a bar and put one end on a scale. It will weight 50+ it's part of the bar. Now lift the other end, the higher you lift the more weight the scale will gain until it is holding the full 100 lbs + the bar.

[Dirtrunner35]

So a lighter spring puts more weight and a stiffer spring puts less weight ? In a left turn .

[Egoracing]

So a lighter spring puts more weight and a stiffer spring puts less weight ? In a left turn .

This spring is not putting ANY weight it is what the spring is allowing. As the spring compresses the top of it gets lower and the chassis weight gets higher this allows the chassis to place more weight onto that corner. The chassis loads the spring during cornering by the location of the springs contact point to the chassis, if this is the top of the spring as in a spring on a spring bucket or the top shock mount on a coil over that is where the weight of the car sees it. If you ran a 200 lb spring that was 20 inches tall and mounted above the roof to the RF it would not compress as much due to the contact points location compared to the weights center. By the stiffer spring logic then we should all be running 2000 lb springs on the RF and turning at will, it wont happen.

[Dirtrunner35]

Try this , put 4 springs, same height different lb on your scales, put a board on all the springs. Put a 100lb weight in the center of the board. What scale shows the most weight? Answer before you do it, thanks.

[Egoracing]

Try this , put 4 springs, same height different lb on your scales, put a board on all the springs. Put a 100lb weight in the center of the board. What scale shows the most weight? Answer before you do it, thanks.

We are talking weight transfer during cornering NOT static weight. If you have a car that scales at X on the right front and have a 500 lb spring on it if you swap the spring to a 200lb you still have to get the numbers back and when you do the weights of the corner WILL NOT change BUT the cars handling will.

When a dirt late goes around the corner how much weight do you think is on the LF when it is hanging in the air? That is the stiffest spring on the car in most setups now. That weight went somewhere.

http://www.integrashocksandsprings.com/general/assets/PDFs/4LinkDirtSuspensionShockTuningGd.pdf

Look at "To make a car steer more positively on corner entry and on the gas".

[Dirtrunner35]

Did you try the test yet? Static or dynamic you still have cross. A lighter RF spring will have less dynamic cross putting more weight on the lf and rr. The same as static, you lower the cross and the lf/rr gains weight. I guess we can agree to disagree on what a lighter Rf spring does but when I use a lighter RF spring my tire temps go up on the left front and down on the right front.


When a dirt late goes around the corner how much weight do you think is on the LF when it is hanging in the air? When a dirt late is on entry both front tires are being used until apex or just before.

ADDITIONAL CHASSIS ADJUSTMENTS -
4 LINK DIRT SUSPENSION
TIGHTEN CAR ON CORNER ENTRY
• Stiffen left front spring

[Egoracing]

Did you think that the temps go down because it is sliding less??? You still missed that I sad after replacing the spring get the original numbers back, if you do that you have the same amount of weight on the spring no matter the rate.

[Dirtrunner35]

Didn't miss what you said, I know how to put a lighter spring in a car and get the ride heights back. When you put a lighter spring in a car, That end does go down more but you have the Lf and RR to think about . Those ends of the car take weight ALSO.
VEHICLE DYNAMICS

ADDITIONAL CHASSIS ADJUSTMENTS -
4 LINK DIRT SUSPENSION
TIGHTEN CAR ON CORNER ENTRY
• Stiffen left front spring