superstock front end settings?

[propit21]

i have two questions
first one, by changing tire type on your car will that play a part in getting different numbers out of your caster/camber settings. we went from a 245,255 hoosier dirt boss to a hoosier imca g-60 tire. checking the front end setting yesterday all the number were different then we had a couple of races ago when we set it last. haven't hit anything during the races. also what are some good front end setting numbers, mainly larger type tracks with slight banking.
numbers now
rf camber -3.9, caster 3.2
lf camber 2.1, caster 2.5

question two
what would be a good split valve shock for the right front, spring is a 925lbs, 3000 lb car, we have a entry mid corning push, its really bad we he qets back on the throttle. right now we have just a 5 vavle in the rf we have tried a 6 and a 7 also. the left rear shock is a 7/2, lf is a 5/2, and rr is a 5. will it matter having most the shock split valves?

[Dirtrunner35]

Tire size may change it very little, but the numbers should be close. Did you use turns plates ?

[propit21]

no we do not have a set, but usually the numbers don't change that much from each time we check them.

[charcoal01]

The guy who built your car knows more than 95 percent of these yahoo's on this board, ask him where your front end should be set. Going to a shorter tire is going to change the lower control arm angle when the car is reset to it's original ride height settings, which is going to change your front end numbers. Run less positive caster in the lf and more in the rf, around a 4 to 4.5 degree split or more if he likes the way it feels. Car should turn left by itself if your front end settings are correct.

One more thing, more guys from the west coast read this board than you think, so posting detailed car setup info probably isn't the greatest idea, especially if you've got a car that is winning races.

[propit21]

we don't mind sharing info becuase most the time people are going to say that doesn't work or there is no way that car is going to handle with that setup. we try to win races in the shop and by doing are homework as much as possible. its alway fun to see whats the other guys opinion is on setup or what someone else is running. every car and driver is different, we have are baseline setup and notes to go back to that is alway true and tested but we are alway willing to try and learn things that might make us better.

so you know what car i am talking about then. and you know the builders of the car as well i take it. where is it that you run at? have you raced against us?

[stock car driver]

changing tire size should change nothing.

you shouldnt RAISE the car back up if you go to a shorter tire, that WILL change and mess up the whole set up.


If your tight at mid corner just add stagger and it will turn.



As for split valves is the car is really good with 4 straight valves on most surfaces then you should start using split valves to fine tune it. They are not a shock you would need or want to run all the time.. they can do way more harm to a cars handling than they make improvement even when used as intended perfectly..

I only ever run 2 split valve and only ever run them on smooth tracks.

[DaveBauerSS6]

I'm glad propit is on here asking questions and he's right, you can share setup info and some will put it to use and others will screw it up.
I have a camaro Super Street that's retired and am just completing a metric 3 link to run the WCSS. Its been a big change from leafs to a 3 link. Will be testing the car at Hanford the 25th and looking forward to Hanford on the July 8th race.

I always viewed the caster as a help when the car gets too loose or tight. 5 to 7 degrees in the RF can help you get out of a loose condition and 3 to 5 on the LF for a tight. The driver has to feel comfortable with the max settings. The new car is set at 4 and 6 to start.

As Jeff said I will run the lower ride height so the arm angles are not changed. The g60s are shorter but not enough to worry about.
Start with straight up shocks, then decide what change is needed at what point on the track, and if it is on or off the throttle. A guy will complain about being tight going in. The rest of the concern needs to be defined if it was on or off the throttle. If he's off the throttle, I would focus on the front end and a small amount on the LR. If it's tight on the throttle going in, look at the LR. Same with the middle, setting the car and picking up the throttle. If you look at whats happening in those segments you can decide if you want to speed up or slow down the movement in that corner of the car.
The split shock question is difficult to give a specific answer to. My metric chassis, with 69 Nova lowers, camaro spindles, and long uppers combined with a unique roll center and rear % make it different than yours.

BTW I ran El Centro a few years ago, had a great time. Its a long trip and we appreciate you coming up to race with us. I also like your videos.
Good Luck, Dave

[charcoal01]

wasnt trying to be an (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) about it, just pointing out that you may talk about your setup, mention something that somebody who races against you never thought of, and they'll use that to beat you. just my own personal opinion, if you'd like to have an open house on your notes and car setup, to each their own.

and yes, i race against you guys, well dont anymore because i'm moving to a mod (i'm sure you can guess the name by now). i said what i said about the chassis builder because like danny just mentioned, each front end may be totally different from another and your chassis builder had something in mind when he designed it that changing it to something that someone else suggests may totally screw it up. i know that front end and you're not running enough caster split. your camber numbers are close.

if you're complaining of a tight problem in santa maria, evaluate the lines that others are running and then look at the one your driver is taking. he's entering the corner from too shallow of an angle, not using the whole track and making the corner sharper than it really is. you can't drive in as hard that way and the car will be off the rf, then suddenly transfer weight to the rf as you near the apex and have to make a hard left. if you arch the corner off better and driver into the center harder, you might find that your push goes away.

also, examine your trail very closely as you'll be amazed the difference it will make in a pushing race car, especially one on the throttle. with as much drive as that car is making, you probably need at least 1/4" of rr trail or as much as 1/2" or more. you'll feel as little as 1/8 without making any other adjustments. you went from a shorter bar that developed more rear steer to a longer one and that is probably causing part of your problems with being tight on the gas. you can usually add trail until it feels like the rear end wants to come out from under the car on corner entry if you're off the gas, then back it off a little bit.

[propit21]

thnaks for the info everyone, how many guys on here race here in cali or az.what we were after was just adding more camber to the rf then it started a whole front end setting type of day. we have ran staight up shocks on the front, we were also wondering if we were light on front springs with the lf a 900 and the rf a 925. just trying to get people opinions and see whats out there, every now and then you stumble upon somthing that works or you can use on your car.

so will more caster split will help with a corner enty to mid corner tight problem?

also how many people really take the time to bump steer your car?

[propit21]

no no mr. A you didn't come across like that. we have always shared notes or ideas with anyone who wants to know or may have questions. a very smart and great old racer told us that a long time ago that there are no big secerts in racing everyone runs something a little different but the same and what works for one doesn't mean its going to work for the other. plus like i siad when you tell someone something you will get one of two answers, that doesn't work or that will never work. and we have won races with a setup that doesn't work and that will never work.

SMS is a different animal of a track, the way the track changes from wet to dry to tacky to rubber with water and so on, its really hard to nail a good setup there. also we can not compare are car and our lines with the way most of those guys up there run being that there cars or leafs and how its there home track. you have to beat them down low, everyone of those leaf guys come off the corner high, you have to be able to float the car in at the bottem of the track and keep it pin low and come out of the corner with a good amout of forward drive, watch the 3d that won, he passed us low and most of the other cars the same way. to keep the car low and on the bottom you must have it on the tight side just a little. we went to far and we know why now to and if we had to do it over we now what adjustments to make. also the soild upper longer lower and the rear mounted panhard bar is a new animal you should really try it and you will understand you have to go back to square one on setup. anyways we had to much cross in the car and we had the panhard bar to low on the rearend side. we did everything known to man to make it tight because the track had so much rubber on it, we figure it had to be slick. but being sms somewhere water came back it and the track tighten up. so we were to tight. but we had fun and learned alot. so know that we have the rear slightly figured out we thought it be fun to mess with the front, not that anything was really wrong with it but just maybe we can make it a little better. anyways thanks for the input and please give us more because we can always use help and we seen you win races a time or two.

also how is the mod coming? almost done? when is your first race?
we are going to perris on the 25th and plan on racing barona to for the allstar point races. whats the plan on racing the mod and prostock? are you going to run the pro stock at all next year we can use the compition?

[DaveBauerSS6]

I'm glad propit is on here asking questions and he's right, you can share setup info and some will put it to use and others will screw it up.
I have a camaro Super Street that's retired and am just completing a metric 3 link to run the WCSS. Its been a big change from leafs to a 3 link. Will be testing the car at Hanford the 25th and looking forward to Hanford on the July 8th race.

I always viewed the caster as a help when the car gets too loose or tight. 5 to 7 degrees in the RF can help you get out of a loose condition and 3 to 5 on the LF for a tight. The driver has to feel comfortable with the max settings. The new car is set at 4 and 6 to start.

As Jeff said I will run the lower ride height so the arm angles are not changed. The g60s are shorter but not enough to worry about.
Start with straight up shocks, then decide what change is needed at what point on the track, and if it is on or off the throttle. A guy will complain about being tight going in. The rest of the concern needs to be defined if it was on or off the throttle. If he's off the throttle, I would focus on the front end and a small amount on the LR. If it's tight on the throttle going in, look at the LR. Same with the middle, setting the car and picking up the throttle. If you look at whats happening in those segments you can decide if you want to speed up or slow down the movement in that corner of the car.
The split shock question is difficult to give a specific answer to. My metric chassis, with 69 Nova lowers, camaro spindles, and long uppers combined with a unique roll center and rear % make it different than yours.

BTW I ran El Centro a few years ago, had a great time. Its a long trip and we appreciate you coming up to race with us. I also like your videos.
Good Luck, Dave

[stock car driver]

[QUOTE=propit21;1391335]front springs with the lf a 900 and the rf a 925. QUOTE]

I race my street stock at 3080-3300 and dont own any springs as stiff as what youve got in your car, your not too light thats for sure..

[hogracer3d]

We only own two out of 20 or so shocks that are not split valve, and we run a 900 and 950 front springs @ 3090 lbs

And haven't scaled it in over a year, idle it for hours every week, take it for a ride up the street before we load

Lol

[DaveBauerSS6]

We only own two out of 20 or so shocks that are not split valve, and we run a 900 and 950 front springs @ 3090 lbs

And haven't scaled it in over a year, idle it for hours every week, take it for a ride up the street before we load

Lol
More BS: I would bet that you spend more time on your car making it perfect than anyone on this board. LOL.

[propit21]

haha now i know what we are doing wrong, we put way to much time in our car.

[hogracer3d]

Worst part is we haven't even put the dry set up on yet,

Lol

[propit21]

i think we will be close if we just take the plow off the front of the car lol!

[charcoal01]

each car and each driver is different. one driver may want an 1100 pound spring in the rf of the same car while another driver likes a 900 or less. if your front end is set up like mine, your lf is too heavy, at least thats the way i felt. softer lf spring will help the car kind fall on the lf on turn in, just seems to help the car get into the corner better. shoot for around 100 lbs split between the rf and lf. i always had a spring in the rf that would allow the car to nearly bottom out, usually 1 inch short of bottoming out.

if you're trying to get more camber than 3.9 degrees i think you're going the wrong direction. i felt like that set up gains camber really quickly and you'll over work the inside of the tire if you go more than 3.5 or so. try the caster split i told you. when he is at low speed, he should have to have pressure on the steering wheel to the right to keep the car straight.

as far as shocks go, i'm with hog. split valve shocks allow you to tailor the cars attitude to what you feel comfortable with. i prefer a car that stays over on the rf during the center of the corner and like the car to stay up on the lr on corner entry, so my shocks are setup to react that way. every corner has a split valve on it.

[dixiedelight]

charcoal if you set your car up where the rf is about 1'' from bottoming out and run a light spring on the lf to allow it to help your caster split work a little quicker to get your car to turn what do you do if the track gets rough? your gonna be plowing your front end. plus i have found that keeping the rf pinned over real hard you have to run longer springs in the lr rear cause your not transfering weight back from the front you run out of drive similiar to adding to much angle to your pull bar

[charcoal01]

charcoal if you set your car up where the rf is about 1'' from bottoming out and run a light spring on the lf to allow it to help your caster split work a little quicker to get your car to turn what do you do if the track gets rough? your gonna be plowing your front end. plus i have found that keeping the rf pinned over real hard you have to run longer springs in the lr rear cause your not transfering weight back from the front you run out of drive similiar to adding to much angle to your pull bar

if the track gets rough, i dodge the holes! kidding. i adjust my spring weights accordingly to track conditions. and on the longer springs in the lr, who said i wasnt already running them? ;) also, i run a chain on the lr which really controls the attitude of the car. shorten chain up when its fast and tacky, lengthen chain when the track starts to slick off.

ask propit, my set up works. It was regularly faster than most of the imca mods, even on dry slick tracks, when the setup works best actually.


edit: after re reading your post, i think you may have misunderstood what i was saying. the car travels to within 1 inch of bottoming out the rf, not 1 inch from bottoming out at ride height. ride heights were determined by proper lower a arm angle.

[propit21]

yeah i say both car were fairly even in setup before we changed a bunch of stuff. the 23 was very fast every night we race against you. then again the last race we race against you both brent and you spun out and a car with a lift bar setup won!! haha sometime its not the fastest guy that wins.
by the way congrat on the championship to bad your not going to defend it this year. also what did you get from the speedway for winning the championship

[dixiedelight]

i thought you meant 1'' from the ground, understood now. might look into running that type set up on my southern sport mod to keep it tight but able to turn.

[propit21]

few more question since the more i read the more stuff doesn't make sense... go figure.

first by going to a softer right front spring will that add or take away a entry type push away. the driver usally floats into the corner trailbraking and picks up throttle alittle before mid corner.

also going to a lighter left front spring how will more weight transfer from left to right in the turn if a lighter spring is used, preload?

so is the ideal setup is to have the car rf and left wheel piviot on each other till the weight transfer over to the rf and rr and use shocks to create drive in the left rear corner coming off.. up on the bars...

[charcoal01]

you need to read your tires to tell whats going on, especially front end. is the outside of the rf hot? cold? is the tire warm or hot pretty evenly across the whole tire? like i said before, when we re-did my front end, i ran the same camber as i had before and the car was pushing. outside of the tire remained cold. take away some initial camber because the front end gains a lot and can keep the outside of the rf from ever contacting the ground.

going back to your original posts, i still say your rf camber is too high and your caster too low. your rf spring rate is pretty close to as low as you should go.

a 5-2 on the lf will allow weight to transfer very quickly from the lf to the rf as you're nearing the apex, which can cause the rf tire contact patch to shear, causing that push as he's starting to pick up the throttle. try something like a 5-3 or straight 5 on the lf.

your shocks dont create drive, they only help to control the speed at which weight transfers around the car. high pressure gas shocks can add a little bit of spring rate, so be careful if you start throwing one on the lr.

i dont think the majority of the push is in the front end. it seems like the car wont rotate when he's on the gas, and that usually isnt front end related. look towards gearing, rear spring rate, stagger, trail, etc. pm me if you wanna get into more detail.