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View Full Version : RR Ride Height...and Bite



joedoozer
06-29-2011, 09:12 AM
With all my ride heights set correct the car has 150 pounds of bite. I can't back the coil over nut off any more on the LR, because it won't be touching the spring when the axle is hanging. So I put a few turns into the RR spring until my bite was at 100 pounds. Rechecked ride heights. Fronts are correct and RR is 3/4" higher than the what Warrior recommends. All my wheel weights look good and percentages are where I want them.

Is this anything to worry about? Am I cutting corners? Should I try moving mass in the car to get what I need? Generally speaking what have I changed "geometry wise" by raising my RR ride height?

01racing
06-29-2011, 09:21 AM
i dont think i would just put turns in the rr there is alot of thing going beside just taking out lr what kind of car and lr spring is it a stack?

hall99
06-29-2011, 09:27 AM
I don't think you have to have the adjuster always in the LR spring I seldom start with it that way - others may disagree - we are usually a 1/4 to 1/2" from the LR spring and sometimes get into it if you rock the car up some. I would try taking rounds of out LR and RF and putting a rounds in RR and LF. You should get pretty close.

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 09:49 AM
Up until this past week the car has troubles staying up on the bars (I know that is a another thread in itself). When I was scaling the car I jacked up the LR by the frame to change the bite and to re-center the scale under the tire. I noticed that the tire was still on the scale and the nut wasn't touching the spring. I thought to myself if the nut comes off the spring then the chassis can only go that high. Chassi rolls, birdcage indexes, spring pushes chassis up. It's only going to push it so high, it can't if its not touching the nut.

I had a 250 on the LR behind and a 200 on the RR. And with the LR hanging on the chain it was a good 2 inches from the nut. So I swapped the 2 springs with each other. When I made the final adjustment to the RR and got the Bite I wanted, I ran out of time and needed to stop working for the night. Which just gets me thinking constantly about it. I never like to get away from the baseline ride heights. And didn't like that it was a little high. I will have more time this week to put it back on the scales and mess with it.

I just wanted to bounce this off someone, to see what other's ideas were.

rubbinsracin
06-29-2011, 10:30 AM
i think it might be a good idea to let us know where you have the car now. like put your complete setup on here and maybe we can find some things to help you. our LR has at least 1/2" clearance on the nut at full drop. we are an underrail car and even we when have the car really really rocked over you can see in the pictures that the local guy at our track takes they are still in contact with the shock adjuster nut. we have been told if you think you are coming off to just get a take-up spring like we use on our LF.

hpmaster
06-29-2011, 10:39 AM
Sounds like you need to look at a stack and slider set up. We been working with the stack and slider on the LR and have good results after we figured how to adjust it and keep the adjusters from coming loose. I wouldn't screw with the other corners myself, don't sound like they are broke.

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 11:03 AM
Thanks, for all the info. I don't really need help with the set up. I just wanted to see if I was understanding the physics correctly.

For example: To help understand what is going on.

If I had a 250 pound spring on the LR that was compressed 2 inches when the car was sitting. It would have lets say 500 pounds of pressure (just to keep the numbers simple). When the chassis rolls it would only extend the spring those 2 inches. After that it would come off the nut so the spring would not be holding the car up.

If I put a 200 pound spring on the LR it would need to compressed more to reach that 500 pounds of pressure to support the car when its sitting still. Lets say it squishes 3 1/2 inches. Now the chassis can hike more because the spring is compressed more when the car is at rest.

Right? Wrong? Or missing the boat entirely?

F22 RAPTOR
06-29-2011, 11:20 AM
...I noticed that the tire was still on the scale and the nut wasn't touching the spring. I thought to myself if the nut comes off the spring then the chassis can only go that high. Chassis roll, birdcage indexes, spring pushes chassis up. It's only going to push it so high, it can't if its not touching the nut...

The chassis can continue to rise without touching the spring, albeit with less traction. There are plenty of videos on youtube that demonstrate this. Now the spring does play a roll in lifting the LR up, to a point, but axle thrust and rod angle are the primary drivers of the car getting up. I would wager having your car at the correct ride heights is more important than having the coil over nut touching the springs at all times. These cars anymore rely very heavily on the correct geometry for everything to work, it must be in harmony and changing the RR by 3/4 inch would alter your thrust angle as well as it would make bar adjustments on the RR change the lead in the car. If your really bothered by the spring nut pressing on the nut at full hike up you might consider either a take up spring or a two-step spring setup. The two-step I think would ensure you get maximum forward traction thru all range of hike up.

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 11:39 AM
My bar locations and J-bar are all in locations that promote hike. I thought maybe the spring issue might have been a missing piece of the puzzle. The nut was a few inches away from the spring. I thought that seemed extreme. I didn't like the ride height being off as soon as I did it. I just haven't had the time to mess with it since.

I will get it on the scales again this week and fiddle with it. I will post what I do, and what I figure out. Maybe this thread will help someone else in the future.

3wheelinphotos
06-29-2011, 11:46 AM
Have you tried calling the people that built the car to see what they can suggest?? Everyone on here is going to have a different suggestion an that will get you going 101 different directions. The Warrior house car runs pretty well so i'd say they will be able to help you out with you question.

www.goddardwarrior.net 865-573-2411

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 11:47 AM
I realize that you don't want the car to hike to the point that its on the chain, because that will lift the tire off the ground. So it might be wrong to expect the nut to touch the spring when its hanging on the chain, because it should never get to that point.

I will reset my ride heights to what Warrior says. Jack the LR up until its about 1 or 2 inches from hitting the chain. And then adjust the nut until it just touches the spring. And see what that gets me.

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 11:50 AM
Have you tried calling the people that built the car to see what they can suggest?? Everyone on here is going to have a different suggestion an that will get you going 101 different directions. The Warrior house car runs pretty well so i'd say they will be able to help you out with you question.

www.goddardwarrior.net 865-573-2411

Yeah I talk to them all the time. Its not so much a Warrior question I am having. Its more of a general "how the chassis moves" question. The answers to my question aren't Warrior specific. I am just trying to understand what happens when you lift this and move that.

jedclampit
06-29-2011, 12:05 PM
Put a softer spring there with the same bite if you want it touching, unless you understand (and want!) all that is goinging on when you raise the rr ride height,I would only use the correct rr ride height.

You should note that as you:

-raise the lr lower bar at frame
-lower upper bar at frame
- raise upper bar at the birdcage

>these adjustments will all increase the gap there at full droop

>and decrease the gap with the opposite adjustments.

So this gap will change if/when you move your lr bars after scaling the car.

I never allow a gap there with car in race settings, can kill your foreward drive when/where the track is dry.

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 12:09 PM
Put a softer spring there with the same bite if you want it touching, unless you understand (and want!) all that is goinging on when you raise the rr ride height,I would only use the correct rr ride height.

You should note that as you:

-raise the lr lower bar at frame
-lower upper bar at frame
- raise upper bar at the birdcage

>these adjustments will all increase the gap there at full droop

>and decrease the gap with the opposite adjustments.

So this gap will change if/when you move your lr bars after scaling the car.

I did all of that :). Raised LRU on the frame, lowered LRB on the frame, and lowered LRU on the cage. I softened the LR spring from a 250 to a 200 when I noticed the spring wasn't touching. It is touching now with the 200. I just need to get that RR ride height back to normal.

This all confirms what I see in my head. I am not totally out in left field.

jedclampit
06-29-2011, 12:12 PM
Where is your battery mounted? Left side %?

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 12:18 PM
Where is your battery mounted? Left side %?

Right side on the dry sump tank mount. All my lead is on the RR upper frame just behind the axle. I have a monster fuel cell in it right now that I can't move any further to the right.

The nut is touching with the axle hanging on the chain. I can probably back it off a couple of turns and it will still be touching during hike. Then I can get the RR ride height back to what it should be and I will have about 100 pounds of bite.

jedclampit
06-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Unsure of your left side percentage, but you will fix your problem by moving weight to the left.
Also do you scale with driver or ballast in seat?

racin29
06-29-2011, 12:35 PM
your comment about not wanting to be on the chain limiter is wrong tho, you do want to run against it your lr is not reaching its full potential if you do not run against it, im not saying shorten the chain you need the car to lift to where the chain is now, and it should be on the axle not the birdcage just in case

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 12:40 PM
I have 53.8% left side with me in the car.

When I scale the car I get in it and write all the numbers down. Then I get out and start putting weight in the car. I move it around until the numbers match to when I was in it.

After what others have said I realize I don't need the nut touching the spring when its hanging on the chain. I can back the nut off a few turns. That should lower the bite enough and I can put the RR ride height back to normal.

I started the thread to get opinions on my train of thought. I wanted to make sure I was understanding what was going on. Somehow it got sidetracked.

If I hold a rock in my hand and drop it, will it hit the ground. The size of the rock, color, shape, what hand.....none of that matters. It was a what happens if....type thread.

F22 RAPTOR
06-29-2011, 12:52 PM
I have 53.8% left side with me in the car.

When I scale the car I get in it and write all the numbers down. Then I get out and start putting weight in the car. I move it around until the numbers match to when I was in it.

After what others have said I realize I don't need the nut touching the spring when its hanging on the chain. I can back the nut off a few turns. That should lower the bite enough and I can put the RR ride height back to normal.

I started the thread to get opinions on my train of thought. I wanted to make sure I was understanding what was going on. Somehow it got sidetracked.

If I hold a rock in my hand and drop it, will it hit the ground. The size of the rock, color, shape, what hand.....none of that matters. It was a what happens if....type thread.

What happens is.... The world comes to an end and you get swallowed by a black hole. LOL :D
Was it pea gravel or lime stone....

joedoozer
06-29-2011, 12:56 PM
What happens is.... The world comes to an end and you get swallowed by a black hole. LOL :D
Was it pea gravel or lime stone....

Haha. The rock bounced....so that changes everything.

3wheelinphotos
06-29-2011, 03:41 PM
Hey if you talk to them often then you would know that Warrior wants you to be on the chain when the LR drops not one or two inches shy of it full extenstion. On the 2007 an up cars your LR drop needs to be no more than 15 1/4 inches between top rail and axle tube. I know this thread is not about LR drop but your showing other issues you may have with your car.

What year car is it?

jedclampit
06-30-2011, 12:04 AM
Actually raising the lr upper CAN loosen your car............
If you have four mounts at the frame for the lr upper,and your in the second hole up, and the cars is able to hike up to a tight chain, raising that bar to hole 3 or 4 up will not add any more total dynamic wedge, ( it will develop a little faster) , but it will add more loose roll steer, which may loosen the car when hiked to the same max chain/same droop extension,compared to hole # 2.

4bangerhotrod
06-30-2011, 12:33 AM
Also, I scale w/o driver and shoot for ~53% left. With driver ends up ~57% when we checked it (if I remember correctly.)

:D

living truth if you have 57% left you are way off.


once the car is on the bars the spring does nothing so it dont matter if the adjuster nut is close to the spring or not. the car shouldnt be on the spring but just for a short moment as it is climbing the bars and after the car is on the bars it is pretty ridgid so the direct pressure applied through a solid link will apply way more pressure than a spring ever could. so use what springs you want, set bite and ride heights an dont worry about adjuster nuts.

4bangerhotrod
06-30-2011, 12:42 AM
Actually raising the lr upper CAN loosen your car............
If you have four mounts at the frame for the lr upper,and your in the second hole up, and the cars is able to hike up to a tight chain, raising that bar to hole 3 or 4 up will not add any more total dynamic wedge, ( it will develop a little faster) , but it will add more loose roll steer, which may loosen the car when hiked to the same max chain/same droop extension,compared to hole # 2.

if the car is tight on the chain and you raise your bar and gain angle in the bar, that bar is going to have more thrust angle witch will apply more pressure to that tire. the bar angle is whats producing the forward bite in the car, the more angle the more direct the pressure is pushing down so the more pressure that tire see's. then after about 45* the bars dont gain enough pressure to over ride the added roll steer then you will start loosening up the car.

F22 RAPTOR
06-30-2011, 06:26 AM
It appears the rock bounced and hit someone in the eye, then ricocheted into traffic causing a massive pileup on the interstate... Jeez Louise!!!

dualdj1
06-30-2011, 09:32 AM
It appears the rock bounced and hit someone in the eye, then ricocheted into traffic causing a massive pileup on the interstate... Jeez Louise!!!

lol, indeed.

Joe think you're on the right track as far as your original question.

fastford
06-30-2011, 09:58 AM
if the car is tight on the chain and you raise your bar and gain angle in the bar, that bar is going to have more thrust angle witch will apply more pressure to that tire. the bar angle is whats producing the forward bite in the car, the more angle the more direct the pressure is pushing down so the more pressure that tire see's. then after about 45* the bars dont gain enough pressure to over ride the added roll steer then you will start loosening up the car.

if the car is tight on the chain, then your not going to gain any more thrust to that tire by raising top bar, however you will increase rear steer which will loosen car,

Matt49
06-30-2011, 10:24 AM
if the car is tight on the chain, then your not going to gain any more thrust to that tire by raising top bar, however you will increase rear steer which will loosen car,

Sorry, I agree with 4bangerhotrod on this one. The chain isn't holding the car up the bar is, so more angle IS producing more thrust. It's not like it hits the chain and somehow magically locks in place, the bar is still providing the force to keep it up and that force vector is dependent upon the angle that the bar is at. To a point...after about 45 degrees it looses its effectiveness. I've even seen birdcages cam over doing this and that makes a racecar very evil to drive.
Set your chain length so that the upper bar is at about 45 degrees in the slick and you should be alright. Changing chain length makes a very noticeable difference in handling.
When a bar change is made that increases thrust angle to tighten the car but also increases rear steer to loosen the car, you can usually bet that the net result will be tighter unless you are on really hard tires or way off somewhere else on your setup.

F22 RAPTOR
06-30-2011, 10:25 AM
This thread has officially been hijacked. LOL

joedoozer
06-30-2011, 11:35 AM
I feel violated. :)

F22 RAPTOR
06-30-2011, 11:57 AM
I feel violated. :)

You don't happen to live in a glass house do you? :p

fastford
06-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Sorry, I agree with 4bangerhotrod on this one. The chain isn't holding the car up the bar is, so more angle IS producing more thrust. It's not like it hits the chain and somehow magically locks in place, the bar is still providing the force to keep it up and that force vector is dependent upon the angle that the bar is at. To a point...after about 45 degrees it looses its effectiveness. I've even seen birdcages cam over doing this and that makes a racecar very evil to drive.
Set your chain length so that the upper bar is at about 45 degrees in the slick and you should be alright. Changing chain length makes a very noticeable difference in handling.
When a bar change is made that increases thrust angle to tighten the car but also increases rear steer to loosen the car, you can usually bet that the net result will be tighter unless you are on really hard tires or way off somewhere else on your setup.

im not trying to be a smart azz or hijack anyones post, ive never run a chain,but if the thrust angle of the bar is trying to push the tire away from the chassis and into the dirt and you have tire restricted by a chain and it cant travel any further down or the chassis cant go up any more up, at this point how can the angle of the bar put more tire pressure on the ground, it seems to me it would put more pressure on the chain, not trying to offend anyone on here, just trying to understand this

rubbinsracin
06-30-2011, 03:14 PM
here is how i had it explained to me. hopefully it makes sense to you....

you measure the chain to full droop....usually a measurement from the chassis builder....and set it up to be right at full droop(maybe just a smidge more). this is because once the car gets past this measurement, you are loosing drive. so the chain makes sure that you stay at the maximum amount of drive and no much further because you are just going backwards once you get past a certain amount of droop.

of course if you are rolling over and yanking the chain, you are going to be lifting the tire off the ground, therefore losing more traction, but if you are going over that far, you are probably running into problems other with your setup. like our car for instance, is an underslung car and our car's underslung bar is about 1/4 of an inch past where our maximim bar angle is, so in effect our limiter is our rail, but we have never gotten to the point that we hit the underslung rail anyway so we are ok.

MasterSbilt_Racer
06-30-2011, 03:16 PM
im not trying to be a smart azz or hijack anyones post, ive never run a chain,but if the thrust angle of the bar is trying to push the tire away from the chassis and into the dirt and you have tire restricted by a chain and it cant travel any further down or the chassis cant go up any more up, at this point how can the angle of the bar put more tire pressure on the ground, it seems to me it would put more pressure on the chain, not trying to offend anyone on here, just trying to understand this

I think the thrust and the chain balance out at that point. All load is derived from how much you have lifted the chassis.

01racing
06-30-2011, 04:50 PM
i set my axle drop by my rf if i got 4inchs before it bottoms out then thats what i make it if i have 3.5

Matt49
06-30-2011, 06:47 PM
im not trying to be a smart azz or hijack anyones post, ive never run a chain,but if the thrust angle of the bar is trying to push the tire away from the chassis and into the dirt and you have tire restricted by a chain and it cant travel any further down or the chassis cant go up any more up, at this point how can the angle of the bar put more tire pressure on the ground, it seems to me it would put more pressure on the chain, not trying to offend anyone on here, just trying to understand this

No offense taken...this is a friendly debate. But based on your logic, if the chain is tight, all of the force is taken up by the chain. If that was the case there wouldn't be ANY drive in the LR when he car is "on the chain" and believe me there is. Like MBRacer said, there is probably a balancing point there somewhere.

jedclampit
06-30-2011, 08:54 PM
Short on time right now but........what is causing the chassis to lift?
Birdcage indexing into SPRING from axle thrust pushing up on chassis?
Axle thrust pushing axle under and up on BARS?
Weight transfer from cornering and lr spring unloading?
Extra body roll from getting the CG RAISED up in the air?
Feel free to add to list!
:cool:

joedoozer
07-01-2011, 08:28 AM
Short on time right now but........what is causing the chassis to lift?
Birdcage indexing into SPRING from axle thrust pushing up on chassis?
Axle thrust pushing axle under and up on BARS?
Weight transfer from cornering and lr spring unloading?
Extra body roll from getting the CG RAISED up in the air?
Feel free to add to list!
:cool:

All of the above.....except the smiley face with the sun glasses. I don't think that has anything to do with hike.

dualdj1
07-01-2011, 02:41 PM
The force created on the LR is just a combination of weight, vertical and lateral force, and gravity. All the chain does is limit how much weight can be transferred over by how high you can make the left side frame rail. Now during hike, there is extra force put down on the LR by resistance to transfer, but once it hits max extension, then your weight on that wheel becomes constant, regardless of drive angle.

All your drive angle does is change the force during hike up, getting you to max slower or faster, and changing the load on the LR during the process. Now if it's not limited with a chain, or you're not hitting tension on the chain, that's a different story.

jedclampit
07-19-2011, 08:31 AM
All of the above.....except the smiley face with the sun glasses. I don't think that has anything to do with hike.

Did you get your deal straightened out?

joedoozer
07-21-2011, 10:13 AM
Did you get your deal straightened out?

3 consecutive rain outs, so it hasn't been on the track since early June. Open practice tomorrow, weather permitting. Got a carb issue to work out along with chassis hike. So it should be a busy night. Our next race isn't until August 6th.

I will post updates. Threads like this can be constructive.

opracing45
09-09-2012, 12:52 AM
Gap closers are something... the joints are much different than before. You could light this up to near health.

7uptruckracer
09-11-2012, 09:50 AM
ANyone think its a shock length or extension issue? Or mounting issue, being its the LR?

fox1162002
09-13-2012, 08:22 PM
I'm just curious what year of warrior it is. I've had a 04 over rail, worked and setup a 03 under rail, and currently have a 01 under rail im setting up and gonna be working on the rest of the year and next season. My car was a super with a spec and also had a limited steel head engine ran in it. The other 2 are limited steel heads and all 3 have seemed to always balance out the same and have ended up with same springs etc. I'm not sure what u gotta weigh but the limiteds where at 2350 and all 3 had the weights in the same area and always were the same amount. This was with a 170lb driver. We had 50lbs in the driver compartment in front of the seat. Then 40lbs at dry sump rant if it was a wet sump and 10lbs on the bar that runs from the x up to the bar that the lift bar shock is on. I know I always set the cars with 120lbs of bite and then jacked the car up and put the chain on and made sure the LR spring was preloaded 1/4 in. Also when scaled the 4 bars are in the neutral starting point. Also make sure your lift bar is unloaded. But my RR was always a little high but check York rake in the RR frame rail as long as its in the 3/4 to 1in area you are close. Maybe this will help also the cars don't like a week RR spring.