dual stage rf starting point

[andy16]

just curious where would someone start w these. knowing little about them i assume i would start w a 1100 spring on top and a 450 spring on bottom. normally run a std 375 or 400. w the 1100 and 450 together gives me a spring rate of 320 off the collar. softer than my normal 375 - 400. i assume i would run these stacked w/o collar once and record how much travel i was getting. lets say my normal 375 travled 4 inch. w the stacked spring combo no collar it traveled 5.5 inch . thats 1.5 inch further than normal 375. so with that info a safe starting point for the dual stage w collar would be my std ride height w the collar set exactly where my 375 stopped traveling at. this would get the car over as fast as a 320 on entry. but when got into full travel the collar would stop the 320 spring at my standard 4 inch of travel and transfer to the bottom spring wich is a 450. so theoretically thru the middle and off would be on a 450 spring. is this correct way of thinking?

the problem im having was hot lap / qualify when track was tacky i would try to run a soft rf spring 325-350 but seemed like it would cause the lr to overpower the car an push on throttle. didn want to tie down l/r because i needed rear steer ? i think? seemed like a 400 425 rf worked alot better early and a 375 when slicked off a bit. this all done while not changing anything else. should i be changing anything else?

i am curious if the dual stage could give me the best of both worlds?

also feel like i should change somethin on lr if change on rf. what should i do to lr spring when testing dual stage? run a 225 there normally. sometimes put rounds in lr when soften rf depends on how slick i think track will get. any suggestions are appreciated if im in left field lol be honest you wont hurt my feelings

[andy16]

just read all the older posts about this lol. guys on here kill me lol. either nobody knows or nobodies tellin. lets talk bout it come on somebody knows somethin out there. stingy stingy stingy lol

[andy16]

i saw where someone suggested a 600 5 inch and a 700 8 inch giving you again a 320 spring. seems like i may be on the right track but i think a 600 spring may be too stiff once hits collar, i like the idea of hitting the 450 better at this point. gives me somethin to try tho.

[grt74]

i think its a good tool but it takes a lot of testing,i know some guys that are on this setup and all of them run something a little different and your shock is a big factor in this setup also(how its built)looking at your spring setup i like to run the heavy spring on the bottom so that the lock collar will hit the heavy spring when the shock compresses,this is a great tool but takes tons of time and patience to get it right and there is not a perfect starting point(different cars, front ends ect)

[ENVY Suspension]

You guys are on the right track there. There are many different combinations being tried, but seems as if only a few good ones. The shock package is very crucial when using this combination as well. So dont expect to just throw this deal on and be good ok.

Kirk Loudy
Envy Suspension

[hpmaster]

Before you say a dual frt right set up doesn't work make sure you try a different right rear or two to dial it in. Now I will shut up and go back to my corner.

[racer241]

Check out any of Mark Busch's stuff on dual stage, he seems to have a good handle on it. Personally we tried a 500/450 setup on a masters smackdown and had some success, but havent practiced with it enough yet. It is a 222 combined i think, i think the combined needs to be pretty soft in order for it to consistantly end up on the primary, otherwise you might have a car that does on thing when you drive one way and another when you drive differently. I agree with everyone else though, needs a lot of testing and shock work, but can be a good deal.

[Matt49]

Check out any of Mark Busch's stuff on dual stage, he seems to have a good handle on it. Personally we tried a 500/450 setup on a masters smackdown and had some success, but havent practiced with it enough yet. It is a 222 combined i think, i think the combined needs to be pretty soft in order for it to consistantly end up on the primary, otherwise you might have a car that does on thing when you drive one way and another when you drive differently. I agree with everyone else though, needs a lot of testing and shock work, but can be a good deal.

That combination would give you a combined spring rate of 236.8

Just in case anyone needs the formula it is:
(AxB)/(A+B)
Be sure to follow the correct order of operation. Multiply the two numbers first. Then add the two numbers together. The take the first number divided by the second number. I've seen a lot of people mess this up by not understanding order of operation with the formula. Do the operations in parentheses first.

[supercomet32]

WELL son of a bytch

I did need that algebra class afterall...good thing i use a single spring on the right front.....Id be screwed....lol


I tried to double spring combo and we ran the lower rate on bottom I didnt like it and wadded the car up the second night we ran it....spring wasnt the issue


my question is what would change just flipping the two springs? how does it feel..i hear alot abotu try this but what kind of feel does it give you?...im more interested in that than static numbers...ok so you tried it but do you throw a car in the corner and power through or are you more of a let her down gentle and finess it through kind of driver. where are you aiming the car getting in the corner? are you jacked up and sideways or flat and straight?

[mab475]

Flipping the springs will make the softer rate become the primary spring when the divider hits the locknut. Which can kill forward drive if its to soft.

[andy16]

well im not on my own with this i have spoken w a shock guru here in eastern nc who runs very good and can give me the shock package neccesary to handle this. the problem with him and most guys who have the answers is it depends on how much money you spend on how much info you get. he is giving me nibbles and enough info to get started or get in trouble. i understand this must be a package deal and thats what im asking. what else needs to change? you say the rr? well what? i suspect there are alot of changes. im not expecting you to tell me exactly but maybe tell me one thing you tried that didn work so i dont waste my time and money.
i have a suspicion that w the 222 combo that is very common alot of people try this once and take it off and say its junk. on paper i feel that 222 is too soft. it seems pretty likely to me that 95% of the time the car never comes off the stop nut. or its so soft it slams into the stop nut then your running on a 1000# spring or so and thats not much better than a bump stop? that radical change from a 222 to super stiff spring may upset the car. with the 320 to 450 spring its not such a shock to the car and these are both springs that could be made to work by themselves but w this combo they can work together?? and the car wont spend so much time on the stop nut with a 320 spring..... i think lol. all this on paper at this point just trying to get a gameplan for testing that about to start in next two weeks. thanks for input

[grt74]

i know you think were being wise guys but really its a lot of testing bring several sets of springs and dont be afraid to play with the lock nut some, there just simply is not a perfect setting all drivers are different and its going to be a feel thing,now ill say this some guys love it some guys hate it and both guys have won races,jmo and lets be real i my self have worked on this for 3yrs now and just dont want to give it all away,its going to take time and testing and alot of it,ill say this if it were the perfect thing i would have won all the races,i havent won them all i assure you,yes it works but its just another fine tune adjustment in my opinion for what its worth

[andy16]

lol i dont think you guys are wise guys just prying for info :) i plan on trying about 3 diff combos at practice and then deciding on wiether i have time to work on it more and if its worth it for me at this point. good talk tho thanks for all the input :)

[hpmaster]

One thing I learned is the length of the springs can give you problems in getting the right rate and keeping the slider working right on the shock.

[PayinDaPurse]

Our team is running one track weekly this year. Is this setup or a bump stop more consistent? We will be running a 3/8 smooth track that gets slick and wanted to run the one that is more consistent week in and out.

Appreciate comments and thanks.

[andy16]

this is meant to be more tuneable than a bumpstop and easier on parts. i think.

[hpmaster]

More repeatable than a bump stop and better drive off JMHO

[PayinDaPurse]

Glad to hear more drive off,searching for that. Once you find a spring combo that seems to work well, are you sticking with this combo for the night an just adjusting jam nut? Or still changing springs between heat an feature?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Glad to hear more drive off,searching for that. Once you find a spring combo that seems to work well, are you sticking with this combo for the night an just adjusting jam nut? Or still changing springs between heat an feature?

I am sure some will argue with me, but if you really have a good baseline setup, you shouldn't be changing springs during the night. The cars have too much adjustability in them for that IMO.

But don't take that to mean I am saying you shouldn't adjust the stopper on the dual stage deal. That is essentially adjusting your dynamic rf ride height.

[hpmaster]

I am sure some will argue with me, but if you really have a good baseline setup, you shouldn't be changing springs during the night. The cars have too much adjustability in them for that IMO.

But don't take that to mean I am saying you shouldn't adjust the stopper on the dual stage deal. That is essentially adjusting your dynamic rf ride height.

Once I figured out the setup I never adjusted during the night.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Once I figured out the setup I never adjusted during the night.

I believe that.

[glnrcg]

Are you having a shock specifically built for this. Is it high, low rebound, what type of compression....etc.....

[fastford]

i have found that for me, whether on a stacked or bump stop, i have settled on a 250# soft side, as to an earlier post as to which is best, i like the bump stop on a smooth slick track, but i like the stacked setup on a rougher track, it is easier on equipment in the rough, i will say both will make you pull your hair out trying to figure them out. i am still learning the stacked set up, and probably always will be, and eventually will probably just stay on the stacked JMO.

[teammastersbilt]

Hey Guys, I am driving a masters round tube smack car and consistently a top five car. The track we run at is a 1/2 mile that is usually pretty slick. I was thinking of trying a setup like this at practice to look for a little more speed, does anyone have a good starting point for the dual stage spring setup for one of these cars?