timing problem

[steelkiwi75]

when checking timing, the mark on the balancer bounces. could this be timing light or something in the distributor? this is the second motor this has happened with. same timing light and dist.

[Racer111]

I know some lights dont work right with some wires.But i would borrow a light and check..Know 2 guys burned up engines because of bad lights..

[Matt49]

Use the most basic, dumbed-down timing light you can get your hands on. Do NOT trust the ones that have the knobs or special diagnostics. Keep it simple. Just my opinion.

[perfconn]

Some bouncing is normal unless you run a crank trigger.

[racedog]

Had an MSD that bounced a lot and the little stud that lcks it out was sloppy and allowing it to move. Took it apart and welded it. It was better but even new they aren't as good as the crank trigger,

[andy16]

2+ degrees bouncing is not normal in my humble opinion. i would check your cap to see if its locking like its supposed too, make sure rotor is tight, make sure striker is not loose on rotor, make sure when you clamp the light on the wire its not near any other wires. how much is it boucing? if you re wired or bought used dist/box make sure the positive lead from box goes to pos lead to dist. the purple and green wires hook up to the purple and orange wires but... the purple wires do not go to each other at least on my stuff they dont. if you cross those the timing will be everywhere by like ten degrees or more moving all around and WILL blow up your motor. i run the large cap msd and i have less than 1 degree bounce i actually cant see it bounce any but im sure its still not as good as a crank trigger but turns 8600 all the time w no problems w a large cap msd locked by welding and a analog 6al and a blaster 3 coil. nothing fancy.crank triggers are nice but are a little more $

[sj valley dave]

Most of the professionally built engines I've seen run a crank trigger. We run a crank trigger with 1 box and coil, then the distributor pickup has it's box and coil that's a little a little different in timing...

[andy16]

that is a great setup...just sayin i think he could maximize what he has and get by without a trigger. every nascar sprint cup or nationwide motor isn allowed to run a crank trigger and they run fine, thats alot of racecars with out them. for me it would be money waisted unless i could play w the timing map and thats illegal in most tracks and series. i believe he has a minor problem w the stuff he has and could fix it pretty cheap once he finds it. crank triggers are better but have there problems too they aren full proof. magnets fall out pickups die or come loose. they all need maintenence.

[sj valley dave]

I didn't say he needed one to fix his problem...Just showed there can be a use for one without playing with the timing mapping...Also, I meant professionally built DLM engines...not NASCAR stuff..Last I looked we are on the DLM forum...

[FlatTire]

I've had this same problem for years. I have no clue what to do either. It doesn't matter what I do its always there. I've had this probelm with
new engines, different timing lights, new distributors, new ignition boxes. I've tried my engine builders timing light and my own MSD timing light. Never really gone away.
I finally quit worrying about it. Its not causing any issues. I just try and set my timing in the center of all the bouncing. I'd say mine bounces +/- 1.5degrees.

[xxxmod]

Possibly the cam walking( pushing against the timing chain cover) a water pump with a set screw against the cam button
usually cures this.

[smirk]

On wet sumps ive heard that oil pump cavitation can cause this

[perfconn]

All of the above causes timing flutter.That plus crankshaft twist,timing chain slop,cam twist,gear slop between the cam and distributor.You will never get it all out without going to a crank trigger.Torsional twist on the camshaft is a really big factor.Thats the reason you see such big cam cores nowdays.Nascar cup engines have to run flat tappet cams and they are up to 60-62mm cores now.

[andy16]

in any dlm engine, limited, super or whatever you always have to run a rotor that is turned by either the cam or a belt off the front of cam. and i have never seen one ran off a belt of front of cam on a dirt motor. so even if you ran a trigger you would still have to run the distributor turned by the cam and spark phasing will always move, minor. its not a perfect world. bush/nationwide motors are roller cams. they went to bigger cam cores to control the cam timing not spark timing. with a proper jesel belt/ torrington bearing to preload the cam cam walk is all but eliminated. with a fiber distributor gear harmonics thru the distributor shaft is all but eliminated. and with machinable reluctor wheel you could adjust individual cylinder timing wich is not possible with a std crank trigger.distributors can perform as good as triggers if maintained properly. he said it was bouncing. i asume when he revs it, it is still moving at around at 3000+ rpms. which could be cam walk if its 2 degrees. anything more is a problem w something that i would look into.

[sj valley dave]

You need to read back through the thread...NOBODY belittled anyone...except perhaps you..Everyone was giving ideas out there...perfconn made a statement and you got on and said what you wanted...BTW when we run our box #2 through the distributor pickups, there is bouncing when setting the timing...When we switch to box #1 and go off trigger, the bouncing is minimized...still slightly there, but no where as bad...

[perfconn]

Andy 16
Not one single reply suggested that he spend more money.I only stated that he would never do away with spark scatter unless he uses a crank trigger.You are right that Nationwise can use roller cams but you are wrong about why they use the big a$$ cam cores. You stated that they use them to control cam timing.If you think that a roller cam with 16 valve springs with over 600 pounds open on each lobe doesn't cause the cam to twist,therefore causing the timing to jump,then you don't understand engines.Crank triggers do not send the timing through the distributor.The distributor is only used to distribute the spark,it has nothing to do with creating the spark or timing of the spark.With crank trigger the crank flex,timing chain strech,cam flex,gear mesh and all the things that cause timing flutter become irrevelant on timing.Don't mean to step on your toes but facts are facts.As far as adjusting individual cylinder timing,you don't need to adjust them individually when using crank trigger because every cylinder is dead on.Using a pickup in the distributor will never,ever out perform a crank trigger.I have never seen a magnet come out of a trigger wheel,in fact not all trigger wheels even have a magnet in them.Some just have 4 notches.

[abe_05]

Looks to me everyone going over board, is your distrubitor locked? Or do you still have advance springs on it? What rpm does it bounce at ? Idle? 3,000 rpm would be a good rpm to always set timing by not idle.

[perfconn]

Agreed.Timing bounce is normal.Don't get carried away buying reluctors and other stuff to solve a problem that you can't solve without spending money.Who said racing was for poor people? Haven't seen a speedshop lately that takes food stamps.

[andy16]

alright i admit i got carried away also. apologies to perfcon and dave.ive removed some of what i said just had a bad day...i dont know everything and have learned from this post and i thank you. i still wanna argue a littlebit tho. i said in my first post that triggers can be better we all agree on that. im just not convinced there necesary to have no timing bounce. i have seen magnets fall out from tire shake/dropped hole harmonics plenty of times. and your right, no the distributor doesn controll anything or tell the box when to fire but it still controlls the rotor and the strikers relationship to the post in the cap what i call "phasing" and the gap between them bounces because of all the same reasons any other distributor bounces.thats why dave when you switch from one to the other it may be a little different. on some cars ive worked on in the past that used crank triggers we could see our rotor "phasing" in comparison to its actual fire and we could never get them to match by using a phasing tool. always was different when engine was running so we set it while engine was running . i assume thats why you run both is so you can see and set your phasing while engne is running and is the best idea ive heard for a circle track setup so far. this phasing bounce can cause timing bounce in a crank trigger system because the bigger the gap the further the spark has to jump/longer time untill fire, from striker to post and the weaker it gets.both systems can work well and both need maintenance. and as for individual cyl timing we didn change it to correct torsional twists/slack we changed it because the manifold runners are different lenghts causing a different air fuel mixture to the further away cylinders causing them to detonate sooner than the other 4. the camshaft twisting yes that happens and has been measured. and if you can afford it you can have your camshaft ground with the profiles slightly twisted the opposite direction so that at wot the cam is straight. this was done on a motor that already had a crank trigger so it wasn done for spark timing/phasing. also with a larger core you can get a larger base circle and be able to get a more aggresive profile/controll especially for flat tappet cams. and your exactly right im sure timing has been more stabilized from this.you guys are smart and you do know what your talking about... i always enjoy reading you twos posts as they are always informative and on the cutting edge.

[andy16]

as for the comment about everyone having to spend more money i was just frustrated when you go from racing on someone elses money to racing on your own its kindof a shock just seems like by the time i can save money to buy the next greatest thing get it on the car and understand it theres somethin better coming out that the well funded guys almost in a way force you to get because you need to stay competitive or the track waits till youve already got it to outlaw it... just gets to you sometimes... maybe i need a break

[sj valley dave]

@ Andy16, no prob...No harm meant, no harm caused...Have a great weekend!

[perfconn]

Yep,we are all in this together.Bottom line is don't spend money trying to redesign the wheel.

[perfconn]

Andy 16
I don't do the pm thing but you can email me at terry.marciaburnett@gmail.com
I understand your frustration.I dealt with trying to buy the latest greatest stuff for 40 years only to discover that most of the time what I had was as good or better than the latest trick.When you are 3 or 4 tengths off, looking for hundreths of a second is a waste of time and money.

[andy16]

sometimes i need to be told that... again and again lol thanks