BEWARE msd ignition

[jeff mack]

everyone should keep track on their new msd ignition. we bought one pro billet dist. brand new put it in the motor and haven't got 50 laps out of the motor either time before it blowed up..this is the fourth time it has blowed up and and thanks to everette at willys carb we found out that the dist was put together from the factory wrong and had the polarity reversed which would let pre detenate when ever it wanted had has really caused a mess... we were chasing everything out from oiling to parts to you name it and finially the info from willys,tech west,rousch racing ,and a couple others that msd has been having trouble in the quality dept for long over a year now. we are in the process of talking to msd but the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)s will not return phone calls ... i know it wont be long before they talk to a lawyer over this crap... so keep up with your new parts from msd...will not say who but a rousch team car uses mallory ignition ... has anyone else has this trouble? willys said he has had 5 or 6 of these in the last 2+ years but it is defiantly a issue...kinda pisses a person off to build a new 800+ hp motor with all a+ parts and have to have it rebiult in less than 50 laps.. there is not 200 laps on the whole motor since it was new....

[Egoracing]

It has been posted on here several times over the past year or so to check the wiring by checking which way the timing moves.

If you are saying a Rousch team as in NASCAR Cup, I do not believe there is a NASCAR Cup legal Mallory ignition.

[guruofdirt]

A guy at our track had this problem but he figured it out before losing or harming his 604.

[billetbirdcage]

It's good that you bought this up, but it was been brought up numerous times that this does and can happen. It only takes a few seconds to switch the wires around and confirm which way is correct. Also a lot of times, you can see that it's wrong by:

1. With the timing set (let's say 36 degrees)
2. Roll the engine over to compression on #1 and stop with the balance on 36 degrees before TDC.
3. Take the dist cap off and look if the rotor is pointed at the #1 cap terminal. If the polarity is wrong this will be way off almost a 1/3 of the way to the terminal before or after the #1 terminal it should be lined up with. (obviously if the dist is not phased correctly, this might mislead you but you still have a phasing problem that needs looked at anyway.)

You need to check the polarity on every engine or car combo, don't assume it's right!

If I remember correctly an analog box like the 6al, the correct polarity is the way most retarded and with a digital box the correct polarity is the most advanced.

Steve Hendren can confirm this, if he see's this post to make sure I'm right on the analog and digital deal. (Disclaimer: Verify that yourself that I listed this correctly, LOL!)

[billetbirdcage]

I'm just not 100% on the digital ones but I think they are opposite of the analog 6al. I'm also not sure what all ones are digital without looking but thinking most of the later 7 and 8 series are and there might be a newer 6 that is digital.

Just be sure you check with someone that is 100% sure on this, as I'm not 100% on the digital deal.

[jeff mack]

i was leaving up to my engine builder but it got really bad really quick and they said they had it figured out but no sucess and i am tired of it now.. msd needs to built quality NOT quanity. we pay good bucks for their products and to get this crap... no way... if something is not fixed from them i will be another rousch racing supporter and go to mallory and know alot of others that is swapping now... and yes i am saying rousch racing engines (dirt division) and i know that for a fact.i was talking to him face to face...! the side of a race car is a awsome bilboard for adv. for parts...the 6al box is correct already had that done...but i am really tired of paying good money for crap parts and have to repair them before you can use them.. thats frickn crazy, might as well build up a hei dist for less money or use a mag...guess need to stop listening to some people when they say their parts are perfect nothing is never wrong with our componets...maybe sue their butt or something...why spend $214.00 on a box and $270.00 on a dist.then $50.00 on a adapt a cap then spend $150.00 to check out and tune their box right and then $150.00 to get dist checked out then all the shipping etc and the bs that goes with it that is not cool....

[jeff mack]

It's good that you bought this up, but it was been brought up numerous times that this does and can happen. It only takes a few seconds to switch the wires around and confirm which way is correct. Also a lot of times, you can see that it's wrong by:

1. With the timing set (let's say 36 degrees)
2. Roll the engine over to compression on #1 and stop with the balance on 36 degrees before TDC.
3. Take the dist cap off and look if the rotor is pointed at the #1 cap terminal. If the polarity is wrong this will be way off almost a 1/3 of the way to the terminal before or after the #1 terminal it should be lined up with. (obviously if the dist is not phased correctly, this might mislead you but you still have a phasing problem that needs looked at anyway.)

You need to check the polarity on every engine or car combo, don't assume it's right!

If I remember correctly an analog box like the 6al, the correct polarity is the way most retarded and with a digital box the correct polarity is the most advanced.

Steve Hendren can confirm this, if he see's this post to make sure I'm right on the analog and digital deal. (Disclaimer: Verify that yourself that I listed this correctly, LOL!)

i noticed msd makes i rotor that you can phase in now

[billetbirdcage]

I feel your pain, but now-a-days (more imported or outsourced parts) you just have to check everything including high dollar/respected companies. Even the best companies will have some mistakes, it's how it's handled after is what makes a good company.

The best thing to do is assume everything is wrong and check it over to prove different before installing. I know you shouldn't have to do this, but that's what all the successful teams/builders do.

Good luck!

[jeff mack]

I feel your pain, but now-a-days (more imported or outsourced parts) you just have to check everything including high dollar/respected companies. Even the best companies will have some mistakes, it's how it's handled after is what makes a good company.

The best thing to do is assume everything is wrong and check it over to prove different before installing. I know you shouldn't have to do this, but that's what all the successful teams/builders do.

Good luck!

you are 100% right but you can sure bash the crap parts out there and that is what may next wrap might have on it "do not buy msd it is junk" on the quarter panels lol

[MI Dirt Fan]

This is interesting to hear. Not sure how it relates to our problem though. Last year we bought Pro Billett ready to run distributor, part #8365. Used it all year with no problems. Changed the springs in it and now the timing keeps moving on us. We marked the shaft and the intake to see if its moving and it's not.

[jedclampit]

Did you use their connectors or cut off/use a pre made harness and install a weather pack type?
Reason being is: the purple wire does not go to the black wire with purple tracer, and this is a VERY,VERY,VERY common mis connection made way too often with the 6al type boxes.

[billetbirdcage]

In all fairness to the OP or his engine builder, we don't know the whole story so let's not completely throw the builder under the the bus. They may or may not have know about polarity, but any competent one does it just may not have gotten to the OP.

Granted I thought the same thing, but without knowing 100% of the details it's a little unfair to blame the engine builder, OP, or MSD at this point but mistakes are known to happen as we are all human.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Bill Hendren posted that he received at least one or 2 dizzy (probably 3 years or so ago) that had the wire crossed in the pickup. So if you didn't check it, it would have been wrong.

I guess the Moral of the story is check everything, DO NOT ASSUME it is correct! Check it every single time you use an engine in a different car or different engine/dizzy in same car.

[billetbirdcage]

NO, I totally agree with ya! That was my first thought also, but I try to be fair and without knowing all the info it's not really possible to make a call one way or the other.

If the engine builder did have the engine several times and looked everything over (assuming the engine builder had access to the ignition system the OP was using), then yes part of the fault could rely on the engine builder from not checking it. I just didn't go there as I don't know if or what all happened. Even though there may been/was a mistake by MSD on wiring, the builder should have caught this (again assuming things that may or may not be true.)

Hopefully this entire post may help someone that didn't know about this and save them some time and money which is partially what the OP intended. It's things like this that separate race engine builders from stock engine builders that think they can build performance stuff, if you have a builder that didn't know this.....? well be careful as what else do they not know??? Not everyone is going to know everything but somethings are pretty basic knowledge that anyone with some experience in race engines is going to have.

That also wasn't directed 100% towards you, as I knew what you meant. I was just kind of saying something before it turned into a bash fest on some company without enough info to really come to a conclusion of who or what is to blame.

[jeff mack]

the engine builder is in joplin mo. but i trusted the builder to have this all under control, i was the one that sent the dist to willys and they found it. then we took the motor back to them... i use to go to kirn racing engines in st.louis mo they were totaly great at motors so i put trust in the builders, which that is never going to happen again... hope it does help out other racers.. this has been on going for a year now and the parts were brodix block crower crank dyres rods and je pistons . all new but the culpret was a new dist. i know i am getting tired of putting it in and pulling it out in the same weekend... from now on the caps will be phased in then should not have any problems... i use to do thet when i run crank trigger on my drag car and going to do it again in this motor... like i say i hope it helps other racers to find out this problem before it get them..i know this will be checked everytime it is timednow i got a tip on what to do on some other parts also

[perfconn]

Not sure you understand the problem.MSD has mad a phaseable rotor button for years,thats not your problem.The problem is the polarity between the distributor and the MSD box.No engine builder would know its wrong.You have to check it when you put the engine in the car.

[hot rock]

We were chasing our tails also this year,thought it was yhe coil,car would start and run then either cut out or just die,we bought new coil ran fine in shop.next morning would not start.we bought a new msd box digatal and it had a light on it,when we turned on the ign.light would come on a few seconds then go off.we disconnect wires hooked to battery charger light stayed on ,figered out we had a grounding problem,put our old box we had for years ,left new coil on car,went to track car dies while under caution.i went to msd trouble shooting website,and starting every oming every thing out it kelp saying change coil and try again.put our old coil back on that we had for years every things fine,so yes i would say msd has a quality control problem.

[Egoracing]

We were chasing our tails also this year,thought it was yhe coil,car would start and run then either cut out or just die,we bought new coil ran fine in shop.next morning would not start.we bought a new msd box digatal and it had a light on it,when we turned on the ign.light would come on a few seconds then go off.we disconnect wires hooked to battery charger light stayed on ,figered out we had a grounding problem,put our old box we had for years ,left new coil on car,went to track car dies while under caution.i went to msd trouble shooting website,and starting every oming every thing out it kelp saying change coil and try again.put our old coil back on that we had for years every things fine,so yes i would say msd has a quality control problem.

Just to let everyone know, ohm ing out a battery problem + or - may not find the problem. I deal with emergency battery backup power daily and you can have a great connection that OHM's out perfect, put that connection under load and it can completley fail in seconds, let it cool down and the connection will OHM out perfect again. If you think you are having a current problem, the only way to check it and be sure is to get it up to operating temprature and then load test it, not use an OHM meter.

Hot Rock, if you found a ground problem then that could have easily damaged a new ignition and coil. I would not blame MSD's quality for an issue with your car that could have been what killed/damaged the new parts. That would be like buying a hew tire, running over something and cutting it and then blaming Hoosier.

[jeff mack]

Not sure you understand the problem.MSD has mad a phaseable rotor button for years,thats not your problem.The problem is the polarity between the distributor and the MSD box.No engine builder would know its wrong.You have to check it when you put the engine in the car.

oh believe me i understand the real problem just saying. when the connector is right and the dist is wrong from the factory there is the problem. it started doing this from the begining car is correct but the motor builder should have had the meens to check out the dist after it fried the 2 4 6 pistons... also there is a motor builder in jackson that has a msd problem, all new msd box and dist. motor will not run, pull all the high dollar stuff out stick in a stock hei and it runs great compaired to the msd.... msd has a problem as i am finding out more and more every day, but they don't think they do

[jeff mack]

We were chasing our tails also this year,thought it was yhe coil,car would start and run then either cut out or just die,we bought new coil ran fine in shop.next morning would not start.we bought a new msd box digatal and it had a light on it,when we turned on the ign.light would come on a few seconds then go off.we disconnect wires hooked to battery charger light stayed on ,figered out we had a grounding problem,put our old box we had for years ,left new coil on car,went to track car dies while under caution.i went to msd trouble shooting website,and starting every oming every thing out it kelp saying change coil and try again.put our old coil back on that we had for years every things fine,so yes i would say msd has a quality control problem.

amen to that

[dirtdevil]

the engine builder is in joplin mo

Does the name start with a "H" ?? If so, I notice a racer out of Springfield Mo is now using different engines.

[jeff mack]

hate to say it but yea and have to add that they have treated me right so far on this ... they have stepped up and took on the rest of this so i cannot say nothing bad about them so far.... i know he went to rousch engines

[dirtdevil]

I will not say nothing bad about them either. Used to use them years ago, was always good, friendly people. Just wondering if something has happeded quality wise.

On your subject though, this may have been mentioned, but Bill Hendren and even Perfconn used to always remind people to not run their coil wire parallel to the MSD harness.

[hot rock]

Just to let everyone know, ohm ing out a battery problem + or - may not find the problem. I deal with emergency battery backup power daily and you can have a great connection that OHM's out perfect, put that connection under load and it can completley fail in seconds, let it cool down and the connection will OHM out perfect again. If you think you are having a current problem, the only way to check it and be sure is to get it up to operating temprature and then load test it, not use an OHM meter.

Hot Rock, if you found a ground problem then that could have easily damaged a new ignition and coil. I would not blame MSD's quality for an issue with your car that could have been what killed/damaged the new parts. That would be like buying a hew tire, running over something and cutting it and then blaming Hoosier.never said it damaged msd box,and yes you can find a lot of electrical problems,with an ohm meter.when i took the coil back the guy at parts store tested it and said,we have had a lot of these returned lately.

[hot rock]

thanks for agreeing with me,aperrantly ego racing.is more ego and no racing,or works for msd havent heard any big races he's won lately.(or is he jimmy owens or scott bloomqulst under a different name?)

[Egoracing]

thanks for agreeing with me,aperrantly ego racing.is more ego and no racing,or works for msd havent heard any big races he's won lately.(or is he jimmy owens or scott bloomqulst under a different name?)

You stated that you had a ground problem and had a bad coil, bad grounds kill more ignitions and cost more power than most people ever realize. An engine not grounded too the chassis correctly can cause the coil to overheat, not to mention running a parts store coil in a racing application. Ego has nothing to do with knowledge, If you are relying on the motor mount bolts to ground an engine you are loosing power and can be cooking the coil. The steel chassis is NOT a good ground and and engine can easily pick up 15-20 HP just by running a ground wire from the battery to the engine block and both heads.

[dualdj1]

You stated that you had a ground problem and had a bad coil, bad grounds kill more ignitions and cost more power than most people ever realize. An engine not grounded too the chassis correctly can cause the coil to overheat, not to mention running a parts store coil in a racing application. Ego has nothing to do with knowledge, If you are relying on the motor mount bolts to ground an engine you are loosing power and can be cooking the coil. The steel chassis is NOT a good ground and and engine can easily pick up 15-20 HP just by running a ground wire from the battery to the engine block and both heads.


That's an interesting statement. I know aluminum is a far better conductor than steel, but wouldn't think you'd lose that much power by going through the frame. obviously the better grounds you have, the better electrical travel you are going to have (be it spark, etc), but I didn't think it'd be that much difference.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That's an interesting statement. I know aluminum is a far better conductor than steel, but wouldn't think you'd lose that much power by going through the frame. obviously the better grounds you have, the better electrical travel you are going to have (be it spark, etc), but I didn't think it'd be that much difference.

I think the problem is you don't always get a good connection to the chassis. I have seen a lot of problems corrected by running a ground too.

How good of a connection do you get to the engine when it is bolted into a painted chassis?

[dualdj1]

I think the problem is you don't always get a good connection to the chassis. I have seen a lot of problems corrected by running a ground too.

How good of a connection do you get to the engine when it is bolted into a painted chassis?

Yeah I usually make sure where it's bolted there's no paint, or alternately use a ground strap. My statement was more regarding where good ground connections existed, and was more in reference to ground bus material (steel vs alum vs copper) I get the point though that a lot of people don't think about making sure they have good metal to metal connections, where paint may be an insulator.

[Egoracing]

I always run a GOOD #4 ground to the engine block from the battery then a #10 form there to the drivers box for grounds. We had an issue with distributors and spark and I started adding a #10 wire from the block bolt to each head and the distributor and the problem went away. When I hear of a bad coil, dist problems, or engines having issues that is always the first thing I check.

The reason I started wiring them like this is after a complete car that was bought from a major mfg that we had started having electrical problems and I found that they grounds in the drivers box were to the aluminum of the box and there was nothing grounding the box, After than I run all my own wiring. We had 1 electrical issue after that, the main power switch that was brand new, died. It was easily found and replaced.
I think it was Bill Hendren that posted that he had seen a head ground wire gain 20HP on the dyno.

[jedclampit]

Lets not forget the rear engine plate is a multi point source of ground for the engine also.
I personally have never ran any extra grounds,nor had a ground problem..... ever!
One to each head, and the block may be a bit over redundant in my opinion.
YMMV

[Egoracing]

Lets not forget the rear engine plate is a multi point source of ground for the engine also.
I personally have never ran any extra grounds,nor had a ground problem..... ever!
One to each head, and the block may be a bit over redundant in my opinion.
YMMV

Cast Iron blocks are painted, the chassis are painted, then you are putting an aluminum plate to steel which will cause corrosion which will cause loss of connection, then we add soaps and water to that while washing the car. NONE of these are conducive to a good connection.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have gotten away with it plenty of times Jed. I have also seen a LM with a ground strap on the engine block that wouldn't run right unless a ground strap was attached to the HEI distributor.

[dualdj1]

Lets not forget the rear engine plate is a multi point source of ground for the engine also.
I personally have never ran any extra grounds,nor had a ground problem..... ever!
One to each head, and the block may be a bit over redundant in my opinion.
YMMV

Yep it likely is overkill. However, in this case, overkill causes no harm, and ensures that you always have a solid ground, which means good conductivity for the whole system.

[Egoracing]

Yep it likely is overkill. However, in this case, overkill causes no harm, and ensures that you always have a solid ground, which means good conductivity for the whole system.

Exactly, the ONE time it pops up is when you are leading a big race with a few laps left then no fire. I have seen one engine that was an aluminum block and head car that ran hot and after is was pulled into the pits would not start to be able to add water to the cooling system to cool it off. We had to load it up on in the trailer and go home and let it cool down. The next day it would spin over all day but would not fire at all to get it into the shop so we had to push it. Popped the cap on the radiator and filled it up and it fired right up. My buddy that owned the car (It was a drag car) shut it down and said to drain the water. Drained it all out and it would not fire at all. This was a solid front plate and mid plate chassis that was powder coated. Filled the radiator back up and it fired up. We checked and without water in the cooling system the heads were not grounded at all. The only thing that was creating the ground to the plugs was the water. We grounded the engine to the battery and the block, heads and intake and for the next week we broke out on every practice run. With the engine completely grounded the car picked up about .08 every pass. This was on a full chassis 9.0 index car that could run high 8.8-8.9 without the throttle stop before the grounds were added and were low 8.80's with them and nothing else. we even adjusted the jetting and timing for the temperature and humidity every round.

[hot rock]

You stated that you had a ground problem and had a bad coil, bad grounds kill more ignitions and cost more power than most people ever realize. An engine not grounded too the chassis correctly can cause the coil to overheat, not to mention running a parts store coil in a racing application. Ego has nothing to do with knowledge, If you are relying on the motor mount bolts to ground an engine you are loosing power and can be cooking the coil. The steel chassis is NOT a good ground and and engine can easily pick up 15-20 HP just by running a ground wire from the battery to the engine block and both heads. it was a msd blaster 2 coil,same as we have running for probably 10 years.the new ones are probaly made in china.not worth a ------

[perfconn]

Alwas blame the parts or the engine builder,never take blame when you can blame someone else.

[Egoracing]

it was a msd blaster 2 coil,same as we have running for probably 10 years.the new ones are probaly made in china.not worth a ------

Did you have it mounted straight up and down or sideways?

Any Electronic part can go bad at any time, and there are some bad out of the box of everything also without a doubt. I can count on one hand the times I have had a coil go bad and have a few fingers left. Coils mounted incorrectly, wired wrong and bad grounds will kill them quickly. Blaster 2 coils are oil filled, oil filled coils require mounting so the terminals and spark plug wire terminal are up. Many people mount them horizontally and that allows the oil to move away from some of the windings causing them to run hot and fail. You will also need to keep the coil wire as short as you can. I have seen a bunch of cars that would mount them in the drivers box and have a 3ft coil wire, this will kill them also.

MSD will even tell you to mount it vertically if you are going to mount it horizontally you need an epoxy filled unit.

[Egoracing]

Page 7 of the MSD wiring diagrams and tech notes;

• The MSD Blaster Coils and any other oil-filled, canister style coils should be mounted so that the high voltage coil tower is pointed upward. Also, mount the coil so the coil wire is as short as possible to keep resistance low.

[hot rock]

yes it was mounted streight up,

[Egoracing]

yes it was mounted streight up,

I searched around but found nothing about it but I know that on drag cars they used to recommend them to be mounted at about a 45 degree angle front to rear so the forces generated during acceleration did not uncover the windings when the oil reacted. I used to mount our asphalt coils that was to the outside of the track so cornering forces did not cause the oil to uncover them.
Like I said before, there is always a chance of a bad electronic part, we had a $18,000 cable certifier at work for cat 5E, cat6 and fiber certification. We bought it and tested about 20 runs when the thing started giving off results and failing cable runs. We got our older unit and they all passed. The new tester had to be sent back and they replaced it as several attempts at repairing it did not work.

[abe_05]

In 1988 I started using Mallory because they started using digital and I never switched back to MSD because they continue to use the analog that is a little out date ( kinda like using a 20 year old cell phone). I run Mallory distributor and Crane box now in my late model. One the biggest things I liked about Mallory and Crane box is the rev-limiter, it is a lot smoother once it hits the rpm. Battery draw was one the biggest reason I switched then. Seems MSD's name got so big years ago, they could just step back and stop trying to make new and better products!! They still trying to make millions off a product developed 25 years ago, I now the 6AL has been out that long.

[Egoracing]

In 1988 I started using Mallory because they started using digital and I never switched back to MSD because they continue to use the analog that is a little out date ( kinda like using a 20 year old cell phone). I run Mallory distributor and Crane box now in my late model. One the biggest things I liked about Mallory and Crane box is the rev-limiter, it is a lot smoother once it hits the rpm. Battery draw was one the biggest reason I switched then. Seems MSD's name got so big years ago, they could just step back and stop trying to make new and better products!! They still trying to make millions off a product developed 25 years ago, I now the 6AL has been out that long.

That is great if the sanction body or track allows the Crane boxes but traction control is easier to put into one so some areas do not allow them. MSD also had digital available but again, many tracks/series will not allow them.

[jedclampit]

[QUOTE=Egoracing;1560887]Exactly, the ONE time it pops up is when you are leading a big race with a few laps left then no fire. I have seen one engine that was an aluminum block and head car that ran hot and after is was pulled into the pits would not start to be able to add water to the cooling system to cool it off. We had to load it up on in the trailer and go home and let it cool down. The next day it would spin over all day but would not fire at all to get it into the shop so we had to push it. Popped the cap on the radiator and filled it up and it fired right up. My buddy that owned the car (It was a drag car) shut it down and said to drain the water. Drained it all out and it would not fire at all. This was a solid front plate and mid plate chassis that was powder coated. Filled the radiator back up and it fired up. We checked and without water in the cooling system the heads were not grounded at all. The only thing that was creating the ground to the plugs was the water. We grounded the engine to the battery and the block, heads and intake and for the next week we broke out on every practice run. With the engine completely grounded the car picked up about .08 every pass. This was on a full chassis 9.0 index car that could run high 8.8-8.9 without the throttle stop before the grounds were added and were low 8.80's with them and nothing else. we even adjusted the jetting and timing for the temperature and humidity every round.[/QUOTE?

I gotta ask..........how did the starter operate if the block had no ground ??

[Egoracing]

[QUOTE=Egoracing;1560887]Exactly, the ONE time it pops up is when you are leading a big race with a few laps left then no fire. I have seen one engine that was an aluminum block and head car that ran hot and after is was pulled into the pits would not start to be able to add water to the cooling system to cool it off. We had to load it up on in the trailer and go home and let it cool down. The next day it would spin over all day but would not fire at all to get it into the shop so we had to push it. Popped the cap on the radiator and filled it up and it fired right up. My buddy that owned the car (It was a drag car) shut it down and said to drain the water. Drained it all out and it would not fire at all. This was a solid front plate and mid plate chassis that was powder coated. Filled the radiator back up and it fired up. We checked and without water in the cooling system the heads were not grounded at all. The only thing that was creating the ground to the plugs was the water. We grounded the engine to the battery and the block, heads and intake and for the next week we broke out on every practice run. With the engine completely grounded the car picked up about .08 every pass. This was on a full chassis 9.0 index car that could run high 8.8-8.9 without the throttle stop before the grounds were added and were low 8.80's with them and nothing else. we even adjusted the jetting and timing for the temperature and humidity every round.[/QUOTE?

I gotta ask..........how did the starter operate if the block had no ground ??

Block was getting ground, the heads were not, well, not unless the cooling system was full. Heads not grounded equaled no spark. We were using a stacked head gasket and silicone for the intake, It only took a little corrosion on the wahser/head surfce and the heads and intake were isolated.

[jedclampit]

34 head studs, 16 pushrods,4 head alignment dowels pins, one dizzy.... and no ground path.
Your name Murphy?

[Egoracing]

34 head studs, 16 pushrods,4 head alignment dowels pins, one dizzy.... and no ground path.
Your name Murphy? None of thise are a good ground path, Especially the distributor. Steel to aluminum will corrode, add power going thru it and you increase the rate it will happen, then if you use a sealer on the bolt threads you are increasing the resistance that the power has to defeat to get to ground and increase the corrosion rate. I am not saying it wold ever happen again BUT it was interesting to find when we did. The funny thing is I have had odder things happen to our cars, I believe Murphy was a racer!

When ever I ground the engine block or heads if it is aluminum I will put an anti corrosion product on the threads that will conduct electricity.

[jedclampit]

Sorry, not possible!

Any decent racing ignition will easily arc a 1/2" air gap.

Some of the stuff you post does have merit..... but this is another impossibility, and some of your stories rival those of the infamous Dynoman.

It Irresponsible to post BS fairy-tales here.

I don't know what you do for a living, but it is obviously not automotive related!

[dualdj1]

Jed,
Believe him or not (i'm not saying one way or another), his statement about grounding the heads and coil to same location still has merit, providing the best possible path for strongest spark. whether or not it's a significant gain, who knows. But if you look at Passenger cars, most of them have a ground strap from the head to the chassis, or the coils mount right to the head.

[ep33510]

The process that Ego racing has been doing for his racing program is part of the Balance & Blueprinting process of the ignition system. The goal & results are no different than when you Balance & Blueprint an engine to make sure each cylinder is providing equal & maximum effort out. Yes, there are other ground paths in any racing platform. But to put faith in a motor plate, chassis, engine block /heads & misc. hardware to haul a constant solid electrical ground for racing is not a wise play. Yes, it works for the street and yes it does currently work for some racing applications. But if you’re spending hard earned money to field a car each week and be competitive. Then you’re leaving performance on the table that could be used to fight for the top spots. The reason grounding is so important, any electrical system likes power to be solid and never change. With the MSD boxes an Ok grounding path will cause the MSD box to draw more current which heats them up and drops their energy output. If you want to keep a MSD box happy all night long just keep in mind you want the unit to think it is sitting right next to the power source on a bench at the shop. I know what I am about to say will draw some fire but it goes a long way to making sure your fielding your BEST effort. There should be a ground strap from each Cylinder head to ground. You should have a ground strap from the engine block to a ground point. Any common ground point on the chassis should have a ground cable run from the battery ground lug to it. Never fully rely on the chassis to haul the ground at all times. We have seen way too many have issues over the past three years with private & well-known chassis builders alike that have mechanically sound welded joints but the joints are adding 1 to 5 ohms of resistance or more into the ground path if something is attached to that particular section of the chassis. It may not seem like much but just that little of resistance in the ground path will affect the MSD box and cause other gremlins to pop up. So the whole goal is to make sure that no matter what part of the racing platform you are hooked to, you are attaching to the same ground plane for electronics to work from.

[jedclampit]

Jed,
Believe him or not (i'm not saying one way or another), his statement about grounding the heads and coil to same location still has merit, providing the best possible path for strongest spark. whether or not it's a significant gain, who knows. But if you look at Passenger cars, most of them have a ground strap from the head to the chassis, or the coils mount right to the head.

Production car engines are rubber mounted, and definitely need ground straps.
Sometimes redundant body/ engine ground straps to handle the current draw of power accessories.

I do not doubt that a wired ground is almost foolproof and probably best practice.
We have never used a wired ground on a Late model, and never had an engine ground problem.... in maybe too many years of racing.


An ignition not to have a ground path because of no coolant, sorry, I was born at night.... but not last night!

I'm done with this, but will call bull when I hear it.......again.

[Egoracing]

Production car engines are rubber mounted, and definitely need ground straps.
Sometimes redundant body/ engine ground straps to handle the current draw of power accessories.

I do not doubt that a wired ground is almost foolproof and probably best practice.
We have never used a wired ground on a Late model, and never had an engine ground problem.... in maybe too many years of racing.


An ignition not to have a ground path because of no coolant, sorry, I was born at night.... but not last night!

I'm done with this, but will call bull when I hear it.......again.

Sorry if you do not believe it but I have seen MANY things that I still do not believe that have happened in a racecar. A rollover ball come out of the fitting on a foam filled fuel cell and end up in the pickup tube. A tire go flat and find a body bolt that got punched thru the wheel by the brake rotor. A throttle stick after a caution and not be able to fire to find a small rock stuck between the linkage and carburetor.
As I stated above you are not going to get any electrical conductivity thru the distributor or pushrods and minimal if any thru the dowel pins on the head. So you put a multi layer head gasket, silicone on the intake and thread sealer on the head bolts. Where is the solid metal to metal contact that will make the ground? It would be like running with loose cables on the coil. The MSD will jump 1/2-3/4 of an inch IF it is jumping with a good power feed to a solid negative. Put a 100ohm resistor in there and the gap drops to a 1/4 inch.
As for what I do for a living, I engineer, install and test life safety systems so figuring out circuit load and connective resistance are a daily event.