why have rayburns fallen behind?

[n2speed]

Just curious what has changed that people feel they are obsolete? Is it because they are swing arm and not 4link?

[supercomet32]

id sya it has to do moreso with the philosophy of design by ole CJ....i use to swear by them till i heard his koni shock ideas and realized that sure you cna wheel a car around all you want and do alot with little but to completely ignore shock packages just about lost all respect for him as a chassis builder..been in rockets and warriors ever since

[rastus]

cj is working on something new given a little time and testing itll work out

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

He hasn't really changed anything in 10 years. A swingarm can still win a lot of races.

[dualdj1]

One of the guys in this area is working with a 2012 rayburn, and sounds like he's making some progress. Think it's slow going, but he's been in rayburns a long time, so hopefully can make it work.

[zeroracing]

I honestly think there are a few reasons why Rayburn has fallen in the eyes of many people. Rayburn has fallen considerably. Much of this is based upon reading about problems with them, seeing them at the track, and hearing CJ interviews. I have never driven, or owned a Rayburn, and unless major changes happen to the car probably never will.


1. Rayburn cars seem to excel on soft tires. The trend in today's time, which I support, is to go toward harder tires. Billetbirdcage talks about the front end of a Rayburn really is not well suited for a hard tire like the D55, which I have not looked or measured one but will take Billet's word since he is probably one of the best in the business.

2. Rayburn cars seem to excel on rough and or heavy racetracks, Another trend in today's time, which I support fully, is to move to slicker and smoother racetracks. The slick and smooth tracks allow for more wilder set ups to become more stable and predictable, remember the short modified 4 links around 2000 that looked like pogo sticks. The 4 link has excelled in this environement which has made it so almost every car is a 4 link.

3. Rayburn is slow to embrace change. He loves the swingarm, and it has won him races, but with todays technology the 4 bar is king (at least for now). Slick and smooth is a 4 bar playground, good shocks and proper set up make a 4 bar fast on tacky now too. There is little ground where the swing arm has much advantage in today's time. Now before any CJ lovers tell me that CJ invented the 4 link, great, lots of people invented things and never either fully understood them or fully captured their potential. Did the guy that invented the computer forsee my IPAD I am typing this on?

4. CJ is set in his ways, he talks about the 4 bar sucks and swing arm is best. If this were true with the influx of NASCAR backing, engineers, and money people would go back to swing arms. They may in the future come back, but for now they are not as good as 4 link. CJ just discounts the 4 link as a fad, and drivers only run them because they are cool. I hate to break it to you, but Bloomer of Moyer only care about winning. If I invented a new suspension that used a combination of lincoln logs, bungy cords sprinkled with pixie dust and it was fastest every top car would run it. They will not run something that is not the best available with the money that is up for grabs. If it is true that they do this, they are not racers.

5. CJ is slow to adapt change, shocks are a prime example, it seems he is starting to come around, somewhat. But in this game if your late to the Prom somebody has already defilled your date. And if your just now getting in the shock game, she is about 4 months pregnant from that prom night your forgot. Shocks have made everything, leaps and bounds in the last 5 years. They have made the 4 bar driveable in almost any condition. I drove a 4 bar pogo stick before, bet a good set of shocks could cover up many of those crazy short bar problems. In racing if your not finding the best new solution ALL the time you are behind, and being behind equals loosing races.

5. Who drives one anymore? Babb, Moyer.... a handful of guys are left, almost none on a nationally known level. Dixon runs one locally and people know him, but CJ is lackign a TRUE SUPERTEAM and top of the line driver. Victory Circle, Rocket, Mastersbuilt... all of these have a big name driving and making people know they are there. He needs to get hooked up with somebody to showcase the ability of the newer cars, somebody new to his cars, like an Austin hubbard, or Tim McCreadie. Just out of the box fast, with a driver that people dont expect in his car.

6. Quality of cars, I have always been told by guys that run them that they had a very limited shelf life to be in the sweet spot. Building on that though, looking at any Rayburn I have seen the threaded inserts in tubing, some of the overall build design is just not as visually appealing as a top of the line rocket with double shear brackets. Now I am the first to say looks dont win races, but looks do decide between to cars capabile of winning on which one is bought. I helped a street stock guy and told him the other day, the difference betwee a $1,000 car and a $3,000 car often comes down to small details like brackets, no holes in tubing, everything being well laid out and look professionally built.


Now, I hope CJ makes a comeback, but he was comfrotable for a long time and was slow to adapt to change. He now finds himself WAY behind the curve, multiple years of building behind the curve. He might be able to come up with a new swing arm or leaf that knocks of the 4 bar but that is a challenge that is 10 fold harder than he expects, at least judging from his interview.

Good luck to him, but it will be a tough road to turn that boat around.


PS. sorry for the Typos, I am typing random qucik thoughts on an IPAD sitting in a hotel lobby so have not proofread.

[billetbirdcage]

That's actually a pretty good post and covers a lot of it. I'd probably give that a 97 out of a 100, but he covered most of it.

CJ is CJ, you just can't take the CJ out of CJ. No disrespect to CJ he accomplished a lot over the years, but if you have ever dealt with him, you will know what I'm talking about. I respect CJ a lot but sometimes I'm just left scratching my head sometimes and saying "really, he didn't just say that did he?".

[mike10]

He told to many guys including myself to go to the hotdog stand

[billetbirdcage]

But was the hotdog and coke any good?

[slingindirt83]

Two great posts back to back..........what is 4m coming to these days. Im sure there is plenty of people that have had that same thought when hanging up the phone. I am sure there is a time and place that a rayburn will work but the shocks on the fourbar stuff is a just about as good in those situations these days. CJ kinda of did it to himself by not wanting to build the 104 car for anyone a few years ago when he was trying new stuff. If someone wants a product...........sell it to them.....just sayin

[mike10]

Delicious! but just wait till after the race to eat it

[rocketdent]

I dare someone to ask him and post what he says. Haha. (if u know cj ull find the humor)

And the whole hot dog story goes when id say most drivers (myself often too) thinks of changes to car from race to race his slogan is go eat a hot dog, meaning cars fine. Change ur driving style.
Hmm. Wonder if thats why im gaining weight.

[dualdj1]

CJ is CJ, you just can't take the CJ out of CJ. No disrespect to CJ he accomplished a lot over the years, but if you have ever dealt with him, you will know what I'm talking about. I respect CJ a lot but sometimes I'm just left scratching my head sometimes and saying "really, he didn't just say that did he?".

you got that right, lol. Cool guy, definite innovator, but may be past his time.

[SS Motorsports]

Personally I have never dealt with CJ for anything, never owned or worked on one of hid cars. But I read an article he did with someone a few years back and when asked about his preference to use Koni Shocks his response was " they aren't trying to sell you something new every week, When is the last time you saw a Koni rep. at a race track?" I don't think you can shun the idea of using everchanging technology and honestly expect to stay at the top of a sport that is constantly changing when it comes to technology.

[andy16]

the last time i went by there shop 2009 christian seemed to be ''running things" i went to a track in northwest indiana helping another team where he raced we finished 2nd he finished out of top ten. he seemed to be more interested in "other things" nice enough guy but his mind wasn in the game and most shops have a guy or two who really know whats goin on when i was there hispanic gentleman welding up the parts just wasn impressed. like there whole move the caliper in front of the spindle deal i mean if thats not trying to sale some gimmicks nothin is. havent seen one since. haven been by since. ive heard bloomquists cars were or are a version of the car but just what i heard at one point in time. i think the guy needs to hire some help like a driver and a engineer. its a shame really used to be dominant...

[abe_05]

CJ invented the 4-bar, in case you didn't know. He is still stuck on swing arm for sure. From a engineering stand point the swing arm sounds better and it makes more sense in some ways. Before I go to far, I have been racing Rayburn on swing arm for couple years and I have gone back to 4-bar with different make chassis. If you could run wide open all the time a swing arm would be awesome but you can't. If you haven't been in a Rayburn before, the swing arm with pull bar combination gives the best forward drive out there, only problem you have is you have to slow down sometimes and turn left. That is were the 4-bars are so good thru the middle of the corner and the swing arm is behide. The swing arm just needs a little help and I will agree that CJ is behide on shocks. I talked him last a couple months back and he has finally ageed that is behide on shocks and he has been working on shock package. He currently has new lr shock package. I hope the best for CJ, I would buy another in a heart beat if things could turn around.

[guidi]

He'll be back

[Matt49]

With all due respect to CJ ( and plenty is due), he didn't INVENT the 4-bar. He may have been the first to build a late model with it but it was around on drag cars and even tractors before late models.

[abe_05]

You are correct but I meant in late models with 4-bars that were on floaters. He actually had some help in the design of it but he is the one that pushed it. Anybody wants some history on CJ google CJ interview, he did a interview on some internet talk show about a month ago. It is long but he goes back and talks about everyone that helped him over the years and who is helping him now. Here is the link http://pinterest.com/pin/407505466252331654/.

[F22 RAPTOR]

Just curious what has changed that people feel they are obsolete? Is it because they are swing arm and not 4link?

Ummm, the newer cars are either 4-link, SwingArm or Watts and come with a J-bar mount so you can run them anyway you like... As to the gentlemans comment about CJ's shock thoughts, that must've been some years ago is all I can figure, because I know when I was with Carrera racing shocks(98'-04') we did some work with CJ on some stuff, we even won the World 100 with Schleiper and our shocks on a Rayburn car. I've heard a lot of people say Rayburn cars and swingarms especially are out of date and non-competitive, but a lot of the drivers I knew who were Rayburn drivers for years and left haven't run up front as consistantly since leaving, the two exceptions to that would be Moyer and O'neal. Babb, Schleiper and several others left while still running good only to seemingly never regain their previous momentum. Peer pressure and trends can distort reality sometimes I think and racers get off track. Sure the swingarms cars had their weaknesses, but 4-link/J-bar cars do too. Trends come and go, whats hot today can't get out of its own way tomorrow. To each his own, if he has the courage to follow it.

[guidi]

Ummm, the newer cars are either 4-link, SwingArm or Watts and come with a J-bar mount so you can run them anyway you like... As to the gentlemans comment about CJ's shock thoughts, that must've been some years ago is all I can figure, because I know when I was with Carrera racing shocks(98'-04') we did some work with CJ on some stuff, we even won the World 100 with Schleiper and our shocks on a Rayburn car. I've heard a lot of people say Rayburn cars and swingarms especially are out of date and non-competitive, but a lot of the drivers I knew who were Rayburn drivers for years and left haven't run up front as consistantly since leaving, the two exceptions to that would be Moyer and O'neal. Babb, Schleiper and several others left while still running good only to seemingly never regain their previous momentum. Peer pressure and trends can distort reality sometimes I think and racers get off track. Sure the swingarms cars had their weaknesses, but 4-link/J-bar cars do too. Trends come and go, whats hot today can't get out of its own way tomorrow. To each his own, if he has the courage to follow it.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[racin6mod]

CJ'S ideas must not be too fare off most of the top builders still copy his ideas. A bloomer custom is a rayburn with scotts mods as is the bob pierce lm's they both have changed a few bars to hide what ther really doing but both have said in print ther cars are rayburn copies mastersbuilt started off as a copy years ago and to this day keep a close eye on what cj's doing. hell hundreds of small chassis builders are copy his cars and put ther names on them. to me one of the biggest reasons rayburns are behind is that he does not give the top guy's free chassis like most others do.thats because he know the small guy's are paing more for ther cars to make up for the free cars to the big boyz. rayburns will be back look at warrior how many years where they down and out now they're coming back as is a few others

[F22 RAPTOR]

CJ'S ideas must not be too fare off most of the top builders still copy his ideas. A bloomer custom is a rayburn with scotts mods as is the bob pierce lm's they both have changed a few bars to hide what ther really doing but both have said in print ther cars are rayburn copies mastersbuilt started off as a copy years ago and to this day keep a close eye on what cj's doing. hell hundreds of small chassis builders are copy his cars and put ther names on them. to me one of the biggest reasons rayburns are behind is that he does not give the top guy's free chassis like most others do.thats because he know the small guy's are paing more for ther cars to make up for the free cars to the big boyz. rayburns will be back look at warrior how many years where they down and out now they're coming back as is a few others
Very good points.