Bert

[dfhotlm33c]

AS I've said in previous posts, we are looking to really upgrade after two years of getting our feet wet and getting the hang of driving a late model. Don't laugh now, but we have been running a Saginaw three speed with a triple disc clutch behind our 550hp 377. I know switching to a Bert yields immediate gains in weight distribution advantages. Beyond that, what are we losing by NOT running one? I am looking for the best places to spend money and yield the greatest improvement. Is there truly a significant difference in acceleration, etc when running a ballspline Bert? Anyone ever make this switch that can attest to true differences?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Losing the clutch and going with a Bert or Brinn will make a huge difference in engine response. It doesn't have to be a ballspline. In fact, I wouldn't use one of those without a carbon fiber driveshaft.

[dfhotlm33c]

Interesting. May I ask why? The car came with a driveshaft for what the old owner said was a bert ballspline. So, if I go with "normal" Bert, is the u-joint the same? Length? Thanks for the input!

[PA Dirt Fan]

Less rotating weight inside the transmission,lighter case and true direct drive when in high gear also very light weight flywheel and the ability to run oil system off the fly wheel if your in a late model and don't have a Bert or brinn your back in the stone ages and the new Bert's are even lighter inside and out

The reason for the carbon fiber shaft with a ball spline is for the possibility of the ball spline assembly jamming and with a steel or aluminum shaft it gets extremely violent the carbon fiber will shatter to keep damage to a minimum We broke a small steel shaft with a regular Bert due to a joint failure it was crazy how much damage occurred took the x brace out lift bar broke and went in to the seat leg braces we will never run anything other than carbon fiber shafts now

[restad4r]

I agree 100%. If you use a ball spline your crazy if you dont use a carbon fiber drive shaft. The damage you will do to your chassis and parts is way more expensive then a drive shaft, not to mention it's extremely dangerous to the driver.

My 2 cents

Ant

[C10]

Yup, but it sucks IMCA doesnt allow the CF shaft

[lovinlatemodels]

Wow i have run steel drive shafts from Wiles for 12 yrs with my ball spline with no problems. Sounds like lack of maintence. I've broke one drive shaft in 23 yrs only due to a j bar heim broke and allow the rear to move cutting the drive shaft on a bolt.

[talclipse]

To the original poster you'll see some significant gains due to the reduced rotating weight a bert provides as well as a significant reduction in overall weight by the time you eliminate the scatter shield and all of the hardware associate with your factory transmission. If you are on a tight budget go with a first generation non-ball spline transmission. Make sure the input shaft has splines all the way up it and bi-weekly remove the drive shaft and grease your splines to help ease the friction there. If you have the budget for a ball spline add $750 to the cost of it in order to get a carbon fiber drive shaft.

A carbon fiber drive shaft should be mandatory for anyone running a ball spline. Its one of those things you may get by with for 12 years or your entire career and never have a parts failure resulting in the drive shaft breaking; but, all it takes is just once for that thing to jump in the CP with you and you have the potential to bleed out before the ambulance even gets to you.

[Matt49]

There's no amount of money you could pay me to race a car with a ball spline transmission without a carbon fiber drive shaft.

[dfhotlm33c]

Thanks so much for the responses! This is certainly helping me to make a decision. So, the driveshaft we currently have for our Saginaw, will the yoke be the same if we get a standard Bert (Non-ballspline)? How about the length? We currently have about three inches of travel on our yoke now, so will that work out? Thanks again! (And just to be clear, it is true that I need the Bert bellhousing and reverse mount starter, right?)

[JustAddDirt]

To keep the same length driveshaft you would need a Brinn Transmission. They are the same length as the saginaw.
As for the bellhouing, I would recommend a bert or brinn reverse mount bellhousing, but you can run what you have now with an automoatic flexplate and block mount starter. it will work, just have to watch bellhousing cracking (if it is aluminum)

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Wow i have run steel drive shafts from Wiles for 12 yrs with my ball spline with no problems. Sounds like lack of maintence. I've broke one drive shaft in 23 yrs only due to a j bar heim broke and allow the rear to move cutting the drive shaft on a bolt.

The driveshaft is to save you IN CASE you have a failure. I have only lost one ever. It was when a lift bar failed. I still wouldn't run a ballspine without the CF shaft.

[RACR_73s]

I believe that the Falcon is also the same as a Saginaw. I have a Falcon and have not had any trouble with mine in 4 yrs. I think you can generally pick up a used Falcon cheaper than a Brinn. I have seen many Falcons in the $500-600 range and actually paid $550 for one.

[dualdj1]

there are risks in all parts of racing. it's up to you where you want to take those risks. many people run alum driveshafts with ballsplines with no prob. even without a ballspline, there's still a risk breaking something and getting a driveshaft into the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit. if you have the budget, cf is obviously the way to go, because there are other benefits such as weight. but obviously from people's experience, the risk without a CF one is still very low. so, in the end, it's just how much risk you're willing to take, same as everything else.

[7uptruckracer]

I've only had one break as well the actual yoke broke inside the trans and not the shaft itself and let me tell you it only takes one time and I have the scars to prove it. It cut a 4 by 6 gash to the bone on my femur and barely missed the artery, the hot fluids burnt my leg up and suffered a MRSA infection over 9k in doctors bills isn't worth it and from the muscle that got cut out and the tissues it messed up I regret not having CF. I'm only 27 years old and some morning feels like that leg is 80 so go with CF even if it takes you longer to get the car on the track its worth saving up the money.

[jedclampit]

I've only had one break as well the actual yoke broke inside the trans and not the shaft itself and let me tell you it only takes one time and I have the scars to prove it. It cut a 4 by 6 gash to the bone on my femur and barely missed the artery, the hot fluids burnt my leg up and suffered a MRSA infection over 9k in doctors bills isn't worth it and from the muscle that got cut out and the tissues it messed up I regret not having CF. I'm only 27 years old and some morning feels like that leg is 80 so go with CF even if it takes you longer to get the car on the track its worth saving up the money.

This testament should make the combination choices obvious!

Aluminum vs small diameter steel drive shafts have about the same rotational inertia?... as I was told by a trusted source.(They are equal performance wise.)

.

[maolizi]

Good to know that such kind of posts are there to help ignorant and novice people.

[crate late]

Wow i have run steel drive shafts from Wiles for 12 yrs with my ball spline with no problems. Sounds like lack of maintence. I've broke one drive shaft in 23 yrs only due to a j bar heim broke and allow the rear to move cutting the drive shaft on a bolt.

If you have never lost a driveshaft, you are lucky. But, everybody's luck runs out sooner or later and the thing that comes to mind is a bush-hog with a steel shaft hooked to a ball spline. Even a carbon shaft failure isn't a picnic but it doesn't hurt as bad. Jeremy Clements (Clement's Racing Engines)almost lost permanent use of his right hand due to an aluminum shaft failure. It's your leg, elbow, and hand and if you can work on and drive your car with your left hand only, I say keep doing what you are doing, it's obviously working for you but I have to work a regular job that requires two hands in order to pay for my racing so I will be riding with a carbon shaft next to me.

[jchurch]

What about the ballspline makes it inherently more dangerous when a drive shaft fails?

[sj valley dave]

With a regular yoke, the tranny can spit it out if you break a driveline...With a ball spline, the driveline is "bolted" to the tailshaft and if the driveline breaks, the driveline will stay attached and flop around like an aluminum knife...

[jchurch]

Thanks for the reply. I assumed that was the case....

[stevo]

If the driveshaft comes out of trans it will sling around if still conected to rear end want it?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If the driveshaft comes out of trans it will sling around if still conected to rear end want it?

The engine is the power source. The car rolling just doesn't supply the same kind of power to the shaft. It may break back far enough it can't reach you anyway.

[Egoracing]

If the driveshaft comes out of trans it will sling around if still conected to rear end want it?

Also the brakes stop the rear, there is nothing to stop the engine from turning.

[7uptruckracer]

In my case it came or exploded out off the trans output shaft, and broke the driveshaft loop, and pierced the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit anyway, You have to hope you have the time and awareness to jam the brakes or else as long as its connected to the rear it will continue to be a high speed propeller knife. With a motor turning 8k+ I didn't have the time. I got away from using aluminum sheet metal on that side of the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit It helps a little. Going to Carbon Fiber will help a little, I put asphalt style Leg protectors on my halo seats which might help a little from getting my leg again, Just do every little thing you can don't pinch pennies when it does happen its in the blink of an eye, you DONT have time to react, and i spent thousands in doctor bills and missed 3-4 months of work learning to walk and get outta bed so i lost job income. Good luck and do all you can to protect yourself it might be expensive but its works it!

[stevo]

And all drive shafts are bolted to the rear end and will spin around till car stops,

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

And all drive shafts are bolted to the rear end and will spin around till car stops,

If it isn't attached to the trans, it will stop when you lock the tires up. Often, a rear u joint is broken in a failure and it is no longer attached.

[Egoracing]

If it isn't attached to the trans, it will stop when you lock the tires up. Often, a rear u joint is broken in a failure and it is no longer attached.

Correct. BUT if it is attached to the engine you have an 8-9000RPM propeller that there is no way to stop until the engine stops turning, this can be an eternity if you have to kill it and wait for it to come down, in the mean time the DS it taking pieces of you with it at the rate of 133 times in a second.

[racin6mod]

the bert ball spline is a great idea that came with dangerous side. the ball spline design is super strong and that is the down fall. A local modified racer had one 3 years ago and his rearend gear locked up mid way down the front straight so he was at full song. the ball spline held so good the drive shaft twisted up like you would believe until the trany case shattered. he ended up with a busted arm and a pretty good cut on his right leg.I agree racing is risky and you have to pick the area's you want to run the risk in but this one for me is the most risky. why pay out the extra money they cost for the extra risk get a standard bert a longer drive shaft with a 8 inch yoke and you'll be better off for less money.