soft RF why and what.

[4bangerhotrod]

im not looking for a answer im just asking to to see what everyones ideas are. what does the soft spring in the RF actually do, why do you think it makes the car turn better and whats it doing to make the car turn better, why do you need to go softer as the track gets slicker and slower. and people work and spend alot of money to make the front end light so it can transfer weight but then you tie the RF down with a high rebound shock to keep it down on the RF. again im not looking for a answer for myself i would just like to see a good discussion on this area. i know the reasons this works and the way this works are alot different than what alot of people believe.
thanks
4bangerhotrod

[let-r-eat]

Cut out dynamic wedge to promote the car to turn by the soft spring reducing front lateral weight transfer and therefore increasing left front to right rear weight transfer. There are other reasons as well but that is the main one.

[racinjason29]

It seems that a stiffer RF would cause the car to roll onto the RR more and help the car turn, not really sure but just a thought

[steman731]

The softer RF actually loads the RF tire much less than a harder spring. When the track is heavy you go stiff on the RF because there isn't a traction issue with the RR. As it slicks, you want all the weight you can get on that RR. The tie down shock simply holds the car in the leaned state promoting more sidebite. "The stiff spring gets the weight."

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The aero factor is very important at a lot of tracks.

[let-r-eat]

Actually this condition is also a two headed sword, really more than that but I'll mention two. The roll center location moves in an unfavorable direction as well as the weight that moves around must be controlled on corner entry. I see many cars that never reach a balanced state again after corner exit. This makes tire wear management much more difficult. I see a significant difference between the top teams and the local racers in this area.

[tbaileyjr]

Soft rf works great on a smooth momentum style track but the thought of the progressive camber increase helps the front feel secure

[Matt49]

The soft RF is nice for getting in the corner and through the center.
But if you go too soft on the RF you will lose a noticeable amount of forward drive.
This is the reason so many guys these days are running the stacked/dual-stage spring setup on the right front.

[let-r-eat]

Rear weight % requirement change with softening the RF?

[4bangerhotrod]

the soft rf lets the weight tranfer to the right side pinning the RR adding side bite and turning the car off the RR. its actually transfering less weight onto the RF because of the softer spring and its unloading the LR because of the LR unloading you have to add bite to keep your static wedge.

[powerslide]

Its been working for me since 1999.

You have been driving late models since 1999? Things that make you go HMMMM

[lovinlatemodels]

Actually I race in the late model class in 1998 thanks for caring.

Ive been running a soft rf since 98 though, unlike you I have real world experience and actually race 30-60 times a year, not TWO, lol..

We ran in our 91 Swartz car in 95 thru 98 with only a 325 right front so it's not new just been perfected over the years like the two stage RF spring i still have my Carrea catalog showing the two stage set up back in 1994 i was told not to run it, it was a way for them to sell more stuff funny how it's a big thing now, like i said not new just perfected.

[powerslide]

Actually I race in the late model class in 1998 thanks for caring.

Ive been running a soft rf since 98 though, unlike you I have real world experience and actually race 30-60 times a year, not TWO, lol..

You have experience w/ front wheel drives and stock cars, and ONE year in a late model more than 10years ago, you really think that compares to late models of today? Get real w/ your real world experience.

[powerslide]

One year? Sorry try again. 98,99,00,01,02.

Fwds were just easy money around here in 05,06,07,08 to the tune of 36-47k dollars of sales building them per year...

The class of car is irrelevant to this thread though anyways.

I could say youve raced a total of what 15 times in 10 years and you think your relevant to post anything on a racing forum, lol, but I wont, you already know your irrelevant thats why all the jealousy. Heck I could even say something about having 3 drivers in the top 20 in IMCA national pts running my rearends, over 40 feature wins between 6 cars with jnj rearends. And of course the Nascar national championship a driver with my rearend won this year in tier 3 or 4.. but again Ill let it go, your already jealous no sense fueling the fire.

If the class of car is irrelevant why did they ask it in the late model forum? Because they have a late model. By your standard's of race counts making you more in the know. Then some of the smartest people on this forum wouldn't be posting. As far as being jealous of factory stocks and front wheel drives now thats funny. I did some investigating of my own Jeffy and based on YOUR website you raced paved cars those years. You are really starting to sound like your best bud you follow around on here and hate so much. I'm done w/ this thread. Have a lovely day building FWD's

[sj valley dave]

Nice looking pavement cars though. Very cool 1999 Asphalt Street Stock and 2002 pavement late model...Not seeing very many DLM's though...

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

One year? Sorry try again. 98,99,00,01,02.

Fwds were just easy money around here in 05,06,07,08 to the tune of 36-47k dollars of sales building them per year...

The class of car is irrelevant to this thread though anyways.

I could say youve raced a total of what 15 times in 10 years and you think your relevant to post anything on a racing forum, lol, but I wont, you already know your irrelevant thats why all the jealousy. Heck I could even say something about having 3 drivers in the top 20 in IMCA national pts running my rearends, over 40 feature wins between 6 cars with jnj rearends. And of course the Nascar national championship a driver with my rearend won this year in tier 3 or 4.. but again Ill let it go, your already jealous no sense fueling the fire.

The class may be of no consequence, but the rear suspension type does matter.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have ran a softer rf spring since 1998. That would be with many different suspension types and classes of cars, lol.

leaf, coil, 4 link, 3 link j bar, 3 link panh behind.

The same principles seem to apply to ALL oval track cars.

powerslide, I never said I ran a dirt late model, neither did the starter of this thread. Look around there are lots of general questions like this in every catagory.

The facts are you cant contribute any more than what youve read from other people. You havent raced and tried stuff, your still struggling to get sponsors so you can race two nights a season according to your plea on fb.

My website hasnt had a update since 2009 or so, the fwd class around here ran its course I just do a few cages in them now per season. Maybe someday youll have the skills to quit your day job and make a living in your shop behind your house!

A 500/450 setup is a bit different than say a 550/250. You would be hard pressed to run the latter on a monoleaf and lift arm car.

I had a lot of success with a metric street stock with a 1400/1000 setup in 1996, but that is apples to oranges.

[Egoracing]

A 500/450 setup is a bit different than say a 550/250. You would be hard pressed to run the latter on a monoleaf and lift arm car.

I had a lot of success with a metric street stock with a 1400/1000 setup in 1996, but that is apples to oranges.

One thing that is being missed it the weights location as the chassis rolls onto the RF and the condition of the LR suspension while the RF is compressed. This is where the dirt late model or modified differ than other suspension setups. If the setup actually puts less weight on the RF how can you go from a 400RF with 2 -3 inches of travel to a 275RF and get 5 inches of travel? 2-3 on a 400 is 800-1200 lbs and 5 on a 275 is 1375. When the RF compresses the LR extends and it gets the bars into position before the application of the throttle. The body roll also raises the weight center line of the chassis which allows it to roll more weight over to the right. The Softer RF also compresses more and allows body roll without picking the LF tire off of the track.

[sj valley dave]

Just an observation...I do know that when we ran our DLM on pavement, a soft RF was the last thing the car needed or wanted. The more we ran a conventional asphalt setup with a stiff RF and kept the car flat as possible and chained down the LR to keep rear steer out of it, the quicker the lap times got according to the transponder...1/3 mile medium banked pavement track...

[4bangerhotrod]

if you have a 400lb spring thats only getting 2-3in of travel and are getting 5in travel with the softer spring then the stiffer spring is to stiff and thats the reason your swiching to a softer spring. the idea is to keep the max amount of rf travel from hot laps to feature thats the reason you have to soften as the track slicks off and slow's down. with the shocks we have now most of this is done with them, start out on the soft spring and just control it all with comp and reb as the track slicks off keep your rf travel and control when it gets there and when and if it comes off the rf.

[Egoracing]

The point was that the softer spring is getting more weight to transfer onto the rf than a stiffer spring.

[4bangerhotrod]

the force on the rf tire is less with a softer spring than it is with a stiffer spring at the same amount of travel.

[Egoracing]

the force on the rf tire is less with a softer spring than it is with a stiffer spring at the same amount of travel.
With the same travel the load would be less, that is correct as 4 inches on a 400lb spring is 1600lbs and 4 inches on a 250 is 1000lbs, BUT the travel is not and will not be equal, you will get more travel with the softer RF and that can easily equal more weight. There is not a setup in the world that will compress a 400 lb spring X amount and then you put a 250 on it and it still compresses it X amount. You will gain travel which puts the springs contact point on the chassis lower on the weight center line which will increase the load that the spring sees. It is basic physics on how the chassis works with the springs. The lower the top of the spring to the weight center line, the more the same weight will effect the spring.

[4bangerhotrod]

stockcar i wasnt asking i was seeing what everyones thoughts were on this, to see if it wouldnt spark a new idea.
ego, a car dont need a soft spring when the track is heavy so with a stiff spring on a heavy faster track your goal should be to get all the travel out of your rf that you can. as the track slows down the the car needs a softer spring to get the same amount of travel. on the same track conditions a stiffer spring wont have as much travel as a softer spring. the cars not turning better because of the rf its turning better because of the rr mostly

[4bangerhotrod]

i was looking for something to spark a new idea but evidently ive come to the wrong place. you need to know why it works and how it works before you can make it work. i quess thats why you run steet stocks and we contend for national championships. we dont change springs anymore, we run a a stack rf, it works and has won alot of big races this yr i just dont enjoy setting shocks with laptops, and using computers at the track. it looks like it will be this way for the next few yrs but i know guys who's having alot of success running a conventional rf spring setup we just never was able to get it figured out like them.

[Egoracing]

stockcar i wasnt asking i was seeing what everyones thoughts were on this, to see if it wouldnt spark a new idea.
ego, a car dont need a soft spring when the track is heavy so with a stiff spring on a heavy faster track your goal should be to get all the travel out of your rf that you can. as the track slows down the the car needs a softer spring to get the same amount of travel. on the same track conditions a stiffer spring wont have as much travel as a softer spring. the cars not turning better because of the rf its turning better because of the rr mostly

I can not remember when I have ever seen any top racer change out springs at the track. If you ever watch the top guys they unload and run the event unless they are WAY OFF. Randy Weaver told me straight out that he does not touch the springs on the car unless he is out in left field and he typically does not even touch the bars.

[4bangerhotrod]

we dont change springs anymore but we used to, but yes alot of top drivers change springs at the track they do it in the hauler so you just dont notice. we usually dont change anything at the track now days cause everything is controlled by these high dollar shocks. im not the driver i just do setups i figured out i couldnt drive along time ago.

[sj valley dave]

I know we changed springs when we went to a pavement track...LOL :)

[grt74]

Im getting a kick out of this,just simple physics

[Egoracing]

we dont change springs anymore but we used to, but yes alot of top drivers change springs at the track they do it in the hauler so you just dont notice. we usually dont change anything at the track now days cause everything is controlled by these high dollar shocks. im not the driver i just do setups i figured out i couldnt drive along time ago.
I do not car where they do the actual change you would still see them take the shock off and carry it into and out of the trailer. It does not happen that much at all.

[jedclampit]

Rf springs are changed more than you may notice, usually as an assembly (shock & spring/s). And usually when track conditions swing from the extremes of grip.

[Egoracing]

Rf springs are changed more than you may notice, usually as an assembly (shock & spring/s). And usually when track conditions swing from the extremes of grip.

I had already pointed out if they were WAY off of the setup but I just have not see the drivers that are close in a tacky track start changing as the track dries unless they were off to start with.

[grt74]

most teams that ive been around dont change there springs unless there out in left field like ego said,now if they change there springs its usually all 4 because its changes bite and there set up,most national teams i know have 3 complete spring and shock setups ready and already scaled, and they can change them pretty quick so if your not looking you wont see it being done,and just to be clear why, they will all have different dynamic wedge setups

[4bangerhotrod]

stockcar again im talkin about dirt here not nascar, do you know the top drivers from woo an lucas

[4bangerhotrod]

im not telling you what driver i work for, well actually i dont even work for them i just do it cause i enjoy it and do it for free just get my way paid into the tracks. and stockcar i do have 27 actually 31 certs now because thats where i make my living, if crew cheif paid more i would much rather do it yr around but it dont so i race in the summer and work in the winter welding in nukes and refinerys. and if your not smart enough to figure out that the 8000rpm in the garage was pretty sarcastic its ok. i know you are the greatest stock car racer in the midwest and you build the best cars. im not doubting that its true so why do you doubt me. and yes my driver has won a championship in one of them series. and since you dont run a dirt LM there no way for you to know the technology used in them today, in the last 2yrs its amazing the difference in technology.

[4bangerhotrod]

yes stockcar i am a union pipefitter i have 31 out of the 70 some welding certs the ua offers if you've worked the fitters you will know how that works. i am done with this thread im not arguing with you, i have no reason to prove anything to you i know what i do and how hard i work at it proofs on the track an in the office at the shop.

[charcoal01]

Wheres the proof? You wont say what team your supposedly standing around with, lol.

Yes I know how welding certs work, they dont stay current forever, you cant just show up and take a cert, you have to need it for a job.... to give someone a reason to pay you to take it as well as apply the testing standards.

I would leave the thread also, you are just making a fool of yourself...

First you ran for national championships, then you dont drive, lol...
Don't really have A dog in this fight but why is it that nearly every thread I see you in you end up picking a fight with someone or are bring obnoxious? Are you an (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) in real life or just play one on the internet? How about you just put your knowledge where you're mouth is and provide input rather than be a pain in every ones ass? Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[4bangerhotrod]

evidently you dont know how the welding certs work,its completely different than boilermakers and sheetmetal workers. i can go to my union hall anytime i want and take a welding test and the hall pays for it, you dont need it for a job before you can take it. every six months if im working i send in welding continuity papers that the company signs an keep my certs updated, if im laid off i go to the hall and run a bead and they fill the paperwork out and update them there. when did i ever say i drove, sometimes if there's not a full field at a non sanctioned race i will drive our backup car to get the start money or when were testing i will make a few laps for fun. i started this thread to try to spark ideas but not many people understand how a dlm actually work especially you. i admit i didnt fully understand what the rf was doing either till a few yrs ago when we started working real close with the chassis builder. anytime someone doesnt agree with what you do they are automaticly an idiot, dont know what there doing and a liar. im not like you and get on here and brag about my accomplishments to everyone. yes i do help a major series DLM team i help them on setups and tires, im always looking for a way to go faster so i come up with ideas to try when testing thats all you need to know.

[let-r-eat]

I'll be setting here waiting on that soft spring to place more weight on its contact patch than the stiffer one.....I was really wanting to see what teams are doing with widening the CG and the front roll center. Why only mess with a spring and shock?Isn't it better to raise the CG and keep the same spring?

[jrkracing54]

Who is your driver than? What national title?

I live in a great place for racing, I personally know the National title holder in IMCA Lates in Nascar I believe I know 3 of the top 5 tiers National Champions, I would have to check it may be 4.

Ive never seen ANYONE load their car back up at a dlm event to change anything. But then again Ive only really been to one big dlm event. Its the 25k to win Silver Dollar Nationals held here. Maybe they all got lucky at that event set up wise. bahahaha

Girls! Girls! You're both pretty.

[let-r-eat]

if a stiffer spring helped the car turn, everyone would be wanting 1000lb springs, not 250's! I have never seen a car turn better by taking weight off the front tires! Like everything else on a racecar, there's a time and place for certain options, the best setup guys are the ones who understand it and apply it at the right time. There is no magical or secret setup out there, it's whatever it takes to get the driver and the car around the track faster than everyone else.Are you familiar with what makes a sprint car turn? We are talking about balance. Why would you want that stiffer spring to have all the weight on it on the front of the racecar? Doesn't that take away from the weight on the rear?

[let-r-eat]

he said sprint car... not sprint cup, lol.. wtf, no wonder it seems like beating your head on the wall trying to explain common sense on here to a lot of you.Yep. Why I don't like to post very often.

[DaveBauerSS6]

im not looking for a answer im just asking to to see what everyones ideas are. what does the soft spring in the RF actually do, why do you think it makes the car turn better and whats it doing to make the car turn better, why do you need to go softer as the track gets slicker and slower. and people work and spend alot of money to make the front end light so it can transfer weight but then you tie the RF down with a high rebound shock to keep it down on the RF. again im not looking for a answer for myself i would just like to see a good discussion on this area. i know the reasons this works and the way this works are alot different than what alot of people believe.
thanks
4bangerhotrod


I believe the soft rf may get grip away from the lr, in a sense unhooking it making the car turn better..


Just to qualify myself; I've crewed on a dlm. Part time.

Jeff's answer is the closest to mine.

Like mentioned by the other posts one setting always affects another.
I feel the low spring/ coil bind/ bump stop setups have a major influence in helping the LR stay on the bars. More influence than the ability to turn in the corner. The rear of a DLM can overpower and cause a ill handling turn from a frontend that's setup perfectly.
Keeping on the bars is everything when setting the car right after entry and picking up the throttle. Most drivers will never get that brake/ gas right to keep it bared up. The more the front is tied down, the less sensitive the car is to the driver. LR shocks are the same way. Bar angle.

Not been track proven, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn,,, just my thoughts.

[7uptruckracer]

Id agree with ego. All things equal stiff spring gets the weight. Springs are enegry absorbers. When your travel one 5 inches compared to 2" there are so many other factors just on that corner not to mention how it effects all the other corners of the car. Most run the softer RF for many reasons mostly attitude related and change bite to get back to what they want. They can control the dynamic timing of the weight transfer to alter their handling. Its all a package and driver preference deal. Most are on the softer stuff these days because of the track conditions and HP. and tune elsewhere for the heavier tracks and leave the springs alone because why change a ton when you know its not going to be race conditions....

[fastford]

i have been on a soft rt frt spring for a while now and this is my thoughts, it helps you get in the turn a great deal, provided you have your camber gain set properly, and there is no magic formula for this , its a lot of trial and error, now once your in the center of the turn you must be on a bump stop or stacked spring to stop dive and gain left rear bite, when i first got to this point i had a terrible throttle push, now being a person that likes to keep my rear square, i made the car turn by adjusting bars and shocks, but you all know there is a ton of adjustments on these cars so even if i went into great detail as to what all i did which would take 2 days, it might not work for you. ive watched a lot of racers try just throwing a soft rt frt spring on and say its no good and take it of, however most wound up back in the rear where they were to begin with. i will say this all the hair pulling was worth it for us because were as fast as we have ever been.

[andy16]

good point fastford, since we are just discussing this not really addressing a problem ill play along also. with what iv learned and know to be true to myself and my driving style at the the track i ran a full season at last i can say i made more bad calls than good but learned alot also. my thoughts are a soft rf works well because your supposed to stiffen your lf also. and could if necessary soften the lr and stiffen the rr. i think this works well in the slick because it changes the shear point of the tire, the more the car is in roll the less shear pressures are on the tire. also the bumpstop is pretty much a must w this. how do you get a 400 spring and a 250 spring compress the same amount give or take, a bump stop. so when softening rf and stiffeng lf you change your lr2rf rr2lf dynamic values causing the rr and lf to get more traction earlier in the begining of weight transfer. then by the time your ready to get back to the gas your rf is on the bumpstop eliminating the spring and acting like a stiff spring / the lr has begun to hike because of body roll then hopefully your car will pull up out of the corner and str8ten up and pick up off the bumpstp down str8 and then do it all over again. but timing must be perfect for all this to work like it should. the expensive shocks help fine tune the timing and the dual stage spring is another finer adjustment of same concept. its not easy or simple and took me 3/4 of a season to learn what i wanted. im trying now to work out a chart for me so that for a given weight because latemodels can weigh anywhere from 2200 to 2450 depending on your rules a spring combo that keeps the same spring to weight ratio and front to rear and side to side ratio, im not sure its gonna work but im working it out. say a 500lf 300rf 200lr 225rr works well for a 2200lb car that doesn mean its gonna work for a 2450 lb car. something that no chassis manf. addresses . my theory is the 2450 lb car is 250 lbs heavier so i need to distribute 250lbs of more spring pressure to the 4 corners of the car assuming you keep your % the same. aprox 62lbs more spring per corner. so applying that to whats available out there the spring setup will be 550lf 350rf 250lr 275rr but if i told you i was running these springs you would say im way off and need to move them. this applys to the soft spring setup like this, for tacky start w a 550lf 400rf 200lr 225 rr = 1375 lb in springs. then for slick go to 650lf 300rf 175lr 250rr and that equals 1375lb in springs. now to me on both setups the front and rear are carrying the same amount of weight although applying it to different tires. is this a good key to a balanced setup? will this help when tuning from one track condition to the next. will this help when switching from a crate motor to a super motor or one tracks rules to another?

sorry got a little deep there.

[4bangerhotrod]

i believe your way over thinking this

[fastford]

andy , i think your on the right track, ill say this about the bump stop and the stacked spring, there are some people on this board that dislikes the bump and likes the stacked set up, and vice versa, me personally i like both in the right conditions, i like the bump stop on a super dry and smooth track, i feel better drive off the conner this way, but on a somewhat of a rough track that is heavier the stacked is better on equipment. and 4banger there is nothing simple about this, evidently you have little experience with this subject

[abe_05]

i believe your way over thinking this

Good subject, I going to answer the original question, the why and the what ? In the setup back the late 90's the lr spring moved to behide axle. The lr was getting up on bars easier and harder than ever but when rolled out of gas this made cars very loose off throttle so here came the softer front to tighting car up on entry as we all know now. That started the soft rf in my opinion but it has evolved much since then. Now attitude, roll steer, shocks, and areo are big factors today. But is the front really soft today ? Are we all really thinking? Even though rf spring is soft but really that is not the case. If you running 350 lb on bump stop how much travel are you getting before and after on bump ? We are talking rates over 4000 lb easy in some cases at full travel. So what about the ones that are running strait spring and getting a lot of travel ? Let say a 425 lb that is getting 4 to 5 inches of travel and has shocks tied down like most of us have never seen before. The rate is still up there over 2000 lb and the shock is keeping it in that range. So why are we keeping the front rolled over ? We are trying the find that magical spot were car is balanced on the front. How many cars you see picking lf up now? Not many, as rf roll over a lot the lf is increasing the load as long as car is not rolling on the rr. Point being made, set car on ground take rf spring off the car, what happens then ? Car rolls over some but the lf is carrying the all the load but right front frame doesn't touch the ground, think about it, your trying to increase loading of left front. So I do not put much into spring rates today because there is so many different ways to make car do the same thing, this is the attitude of car. Different chassis are different with this point, as the rf rolls over the first 1-2 inches the weight or loading goes up on rf and down on lf, at some point the lf loading starts to go up if rf continues to roll over. Some racers are using bump stops on lf now instead of rf (keeping rf on strait spring ) to help this method. This topic can go forever, some top guys are using tie down on both front springs and using the rear to bars run up to top to push front down and running rear percentage up. If had all the answers I would working for some big team but I am not. Just trying to shed some light. You still to have to make driver like the feel also with all the new stuff that is happening. Has everyone seen a big difference in competition in past year or so? The big teams are getting faster at a faster pace than small guys, why- they have enough time and money to go test these different setups to max balance cars.

[7uptruckracer]

I agree a bumpstop can work but you can't have variables like a bumpy track or a changing surface bump wise you have to know when your getting on the bump in the corner and stay on the bump so you know what your doing to the car. I like the dual spring not to be confused with a stack but like anything you have to test it. Everything is a compromise and each driver is different for the weekly same track racer who can test it might be easier in a way then a touring driver who has a new facility and conditions each night unless your a big boy.

[7uptruckracer]

Does everyone run 10/4 inch dual Combos? What brand Im Having a hard time finding above 650 in 10" Id like to try say a 700 10" or maybe an 8" if people are running those...Post your Ideas it would be cool to gather some more knowledge.

[7uptruckracer]

Nevermind I run 6/6 I don't know why afco suggests what they do, Someone said not to use the nylon sleeve anyone else run into this?