My first Modified... have questions

[moose52]

Hello all,

My wife bought me a weekend class at the Dirt Track racing school this past year. I'm 43 and for the better part of my life I have always been drag racing. Long story short I got the bug and just purchased my first Modified. The drag car and gear are going up for sale over the winter. The car I bought is a 2005 lightning. I have a few questions that I was hoping the gods and gurus of 4m might help with.

First question is the transmission. Its a bert. When the car is sitting, motor not running should I be able to put the car in reverse? Low and high work fine. But the reverse lever does not move. The car sat for the better part of three years. I am currently pulling the battery, starter and planning to replace the fuel line and filters, but wondering if it would be best to pull the transmission and get it rebuilt? My only experience with dirt manuals are Saginaws, is the bert that much better of a transmission? I read the information that came with the car and how the internal clutch is backwards from a standard, seems and I seem to see a lot of post on rebuilds. Is it because of the internal clutch and how it works that they need to be rebuilt often?

Second does anyone have a good source for small block chevy casting numbers? I got a nice thick book that contained all the components in the motor but not what year the motor is? It was decked so the VIN location is gone. Back casting numbers are either 3970014 or 3970010. Above that is either E10-74 or E1C-74. casting numbers are hard to read. I always drag raced fords, but it seemed easier to run a Chevy with a modified, so I am a little out of my depth when it comes to historical knowledge of GM. While i'm pulling the other items should I go ahead and pull the motor and go through it? The maintanence booklet that came along with the car shows it was maintained very well. But maybe its best to start from my own baseline for the car?

I'm planning on changing out the wheel bearings and the brakes as well as seat and belts. Is there anything else I should be thinking about? Hoping you guys can help me out with suggestions for putting a safe and competitive car back on the track.

Thanks,

Steve

[widcard22]

Ya should be able to put it in rev. with the engine not started.... Make sure the other shifter is in the middle and not in low or high....
3970010 is a 350 casting number from 1969 up

Don Adams builds lightning chassis he's on here from time to time... He goes by Heavy Duty.
Call him he can tell u everything ya want to know. Great guy and builds fast safe cars...
The number is 1-606-878-7223. Best call you would ever make.

[cavemod]

My bert has to be in dead neutral to get it in reverse.Its avery small area in the shifter if its not it just doesn't move.as far as rebuilding them mine has about 25 nights on it and still works fine.don't drive it on the trailer or in low or reverse a bunch the clutch is real small and its not intended for extended usage in low or reverse.as far as blocks010 is thestandard 350 block used for many years and very affordable to build.the 014 i'm not familair with.A leak down test will tell you how tight the engine is but its a good idea to go thru it with at least bearings,rings oil pump, valvesprings,and gaskets unless you know who built it and how much abuse its seen let alone find out whats in it.you can call it an insurance policy.Being aformer drag racer convert myself your in for a real treat.get someone with experience with mods to help you out!!!!Don(heavyduty on 4m) can give you alot of help but he won't be there at the track all the time.Lightnings are great cars.Best of luck to you.

[dirttrackrocker]

I would definitely get the engine and trans rebuilt. This being your first year, you need seat time, not time chasing problems.

[LM14]

You drag raced Fords so why not run a Ford? It's what you know. I have 3 nice Ford motors for sale for very reasonable prices. We're retiring. 351 for $2500 Eagle rods that needs freshened, 358 Bryant crank/Carillo 6.2" rods with 12 nights for $4500 and 380" with 3 nights with Eagle crank and Scat 6.2" rods for $4500. 351 in marine block and the other 2 in G351 Motorsports blocks. All nice stuff. All Victor intakes, all roller rockers, Erson EDM lifters, complete long blocks and I'll throw in front motor mounts. Also have radiators, MSD and headers for each one for a little more. Give some consideration to staying Ford.

I would also sell the Bert and buy a Brinn. There are those that like Berts but the Brinn is a much smother tranny and we have run them years between rebuilds. It's a better tranny for the money.

If you do decide to keep the Chevy motors, I would go thru everything and know you are starting fresh. 3 years is a long time to sit. Same for the Bert.

JMO,
SPark

[dirttrackrocker]

I would also sell the Bert and buy a Brinn. There are those that like Berts but the Brinn is a much smother tranny and we have run them years between rebuilds. It's a better tranny for the money.



Agree.... You can rebuild a Brinn by yourself pretty easily too. A Bert is a real PITA.

[js11]

Steve,

All great advice. But don't let the hobby get more expensive than necessary. Put your money into safety gear and the car's baseline. Use what you already have.

1-Personally, I would freshen the motor, if there's any doubt. This way you know what you have and won't have a costly rebuild in the middle of racing season. I would make sure the balancer is a quality balancer and put money into quality oil control (good 8 quart circle track oil pan).

2-The Brynn trannys are nice, but you already have the Bert, and they are pretty much the standard anyway (pretty hard to break em). Both trannys work on the same principle..the bert is just shorter. Just make sure low and reverse are in neutral, turn the rear wheels a bit and see if you can ram it into reverse (your jammed or the gears aren't lined up, or something). Pull the cover, inspect your gears and make sure the clutch pack isn't flopping around too much). You'll probably be OK [remember, you step on the clutch to make it GO in first and reverse, not to get it to shift :) ]

3-Call Donnie at Lightning (or email). He's a great guy who builds a heck of a car. He even has the set-up sheets posted on his website for that year chassis. I would get his recommendations on Springs, shocks, pull bar, wheel offsets and front end components (most you can buy at the local parts store).

Finally, good/fresh tires are important (especially right side). Save your money and buy some at the beginning of the season and then have some fun racing.

[mudeater18]

Yes, the Bert is definitely better than the saginaw. Once you learn how to use the Bert, they're very simple and pretty much bullet proof. Are you using the right lever for reverse ? Low and High or on the same lever and reverse is by itself. And to repeat,the low/high lever must be in the neutral (center) position before it will go into reverse. Will it go in reverse with engine running or have you got to try that yet ?

[johnfitz2modified]

With the Bert a problem I have ran into on the car I bought this year is check the bolts on the shifters make sure there not touching. I had a problem at the track getting it in low gear. The shifters have a little play and the heads of the bolts were rubbing so I had to push the shifter toward the other and it would go in gear. As stated earlier make sure your high and low side is right in the middle and roll the car a little a pull in gear. I have had great luck from my trans I would run what I have if I were you. Also I've had a few Lightnings call Donnie he helps out alot. Anothe guy on here that helped me out with a Lightning is Just Add Dirt he's really helpful.

[moose52]

Have to thank you all for the quick responses, I know its much easier to glance over a newbie post and his questions and that it takes time to compose a post. So thank you all! I've belonged to several forums from Drag Racing to Film/Indy film stuff and this group beats them all by a mile. Cavemod and Wildcard22, thank you for the block number information! It will help when ordering parts to have some idea of the block info. Dirttrackrocker has it right in that I wanted to buy as near a turn key car to simply get the seat time before getting to far into it. JS11 has it right in that my plan is seat time with the current car, sell the drag car and support gear and then move forward with a ford powered car. I would certainly say I bleed ford blue, but my favorite car was a 1956 belair. Just like to be different with the Ford drag cars. Will be the same with the next modified.

The shifter as mounted in the car is on very thin sheetmetal, so you don't get the most accurate feel for what neutral is in any gear. I did a google search for Bert Shift pattern and got a decent image what levers go where and more important where the forks out of the trans should be. Currently low and high work fine. Reverse is 'stuck' in neutral as seen from under the car. have not really cranked on it. But I will take your advice and pull it for a re-build. Also noticed while under the car there is not a cross member trans mount. A search of 4m brings up several posts on this. Most suggest a support for OEM bell's and that its not needed for Bert/Brinn style aftermarket bells. So I think that should be on the list as well, along with a more solid mount for the shifters.

You guys say pull the motor, out comes the motor. The list of internals the previous owners gave me sounds good, but never hurts to check things out and as Dirtrackrocker mentioned, its about the seat time. Better to not be chasing leaking rear main seals and weak springs when there are more important things to worry about, like learning to drive.

One last question, on the side of the dash board where you might mount the bias gages there is a thin aluminum plate with 4 LED lights in it, to the side is a female jack plug. Looks like the kind you would plug a headphone jack into. Wire tied to the bias crank is a 9V battery. Any idea on what this is? Communication? Its pretty much self contained and not wires to anything else on the car.

Thanks again for all the help, can't tell you how nice it is to have a resource for questions on the car and set-up.

Thanks,

Steve

[Lizardracing]

A piece of advice I wish someone gave to me 12 years ago....

Take apart the whole car. Every nut, bolt, tube, wire, everything. Then reassemble. Why? It'll help you get to know your car. You'll also find a bunch of little things that you will want to change or fix. It also insures everything is to your standard and not a hacked up cluster f###. When you encounter problems at the track, when, not if, you won't have a lot of time for extensive troubleshooting and simplifying things like standardizing all nuts and bolts to common sizes and running wires that are color coded make a big (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) deal to getting your car running again. As an example, I only use four SAE thread sizes. There's no guessing to what size the bolt head is when you need to remove/reinstall any part. I once color coded the bolt heads with the wrenches to for easy ID and it was awesome. Remember the sockets too. These cars are a tremendous amount of work just in maintenance items and you can race a whole weekend with out a single contact indecent and still find things on Monday that need tightened, straightened, greased and cleaned or re welded. Never under estimate the power of vibrating nuts and bolts.

Second, take your time reassembling, as noted before, it's gonna cost you $150 just to show up and so you have a vested interest to make sure you compete and try to win something back. Breaking stuff rolling it off the trailer or in hot laps because of a poorly maintained car can be the most disappointing things that ruin this kind of racing fun for many people.

[jsf74]

Very very well said. I bought my car as a roller last year and was surprised with the things I found. Some people put their junk throw away parts on a chassis to make it a roller and advertise as minus motor and trans or turn key but in reality you just bought someones used up parts that need gone thru. I had a hard enough time learning to drive let alone chase mechanical issues. I too am a dragracer trying to turn left. Lol have fun and maintain your line.

[moose52]

Agree a re-build is the best way to go from here. There are some things I am finding that I would like to change. Things as simple as the fuel line from cell to pump is rubber. I always ran 1/2 hard line on the drag cars. As I mentioned the shifter is mounted to a thin sheetmetal shelf and has a lot of play. So I want to change that. I also like the idea of standardization of the hardware and tools. Color code is awesome idea. Very lean manufacturing.... I like that! And I am sure I will find a lot of other things that will surprise me. Also like the slogan "Never under estimate the power of vibrating nuts". Might put that on a shirt.

Steve

[johnny v]

Agree a re-build is the best way to go from here. There are some things I am finding that I would like to change. Things as simple as the fuel line from cell to pump is rubber. I always ran 1/2 hard line on the drag cars. As I mentioned the shifter is mounted to a thin sheetmetal shelf and has a lot of play. So I want to change that. I also like the idea of standardization of the hardware and tools. Color code is awesome idea. Very lean manufacturing.... I like that! And I am sure I will find a lot of other things that will surprise me. Also like the slogan "Never under estimate the power of vibrating nuts". Might put that on a shirt.

Steve

"Lean manufacturing"
I see someone else is going through the same things we are doing at work .....more of a 5s deal ( standardize)..... a tool of Lean...
Lots of things you can change and fix during the off season...I would stay with the hose or braided hose from the cell to the pump.....pushlock is fine... no need to change that.....

before you know it, the fun part will begin...THE RACING !

[mudeater18]

"Lean manufacturing"
I see someone else is going through the same things we are doing at work .....more of a 5s deal ( standardize)..... a tool of Lean...
Lots of things you can change and fix during the off season...I would stay with the hose or braided hose from the cell to the pump.....pushlock is fine... no need to change that.....

before you know it, the fun part will begin...THE RACING !

5s ? I see you work for a japanese company !!! seiri, seiton, seiso, seiketsu, and sh1tsuke !

[dirttrackrocker]

I agree, stick with hose on the fuel line, no need for hard line. You have me baffled on the LED lights and 9 volt...

[johnny v]

5s ? I see you work for a japanese company !!! seiri, seiton, seiso, seiketsu, and sh1tsuke !

nope, American.... been in business over 100 yrs... but trying to stay up with our version of 5 s and lean...
sort, simplify, standardize, systematic cleaning, sustain, and we added a 6th s, safety.....

[moose52]

5s ? I see you work for a japanese company !!! seiri, seiton, seiso, seiketsu, and sh1tsuke !

For me its an American company as well, Injection molding outfit with an in house tool room. Machinist by trade but with a lot of quality background and I fully understand the order and method of lean manufacturing.

I will grab the camera and snap a couple pictures of the LED/Audio jack set-up. Might help identify it.

Steve

[racer69]

I also agree and like the idea a lot of tear down rebuild! I bought a mod(my first) from a reputable dealer. I researched the car and found out it had been raced by a big name. Even found youtube videos of it running practice. So I brought it home and concentrated on putting my engine' trans, and stuff in. Wasn't even close first season. Chalked it up to being new to Mods. Last winter I tore it apart and found so many little things that added up big! Spacer stuck in wrong place, wrong RF spring, bad steering box. I found out that one person had it between me and the big name. He changed stuff and had it out in left field! Changed it all!.
Pre season practice had me smiling! That thing was real! It rocked! This year a new car assembled by ME!

[moose52]

Getting the Bert out now, motor will be next. The Carb and Distributor have Gene Nichols sticker ID on them. A google search comes up with a few personal racer home pages who use either one or both item on the car but no web site specifically for Gene. Anyone have any information on these pieces?

As far as the Bert goes, they have a video on their site that covers a re-build, are there any other videos out there? Seems that a rebuild is in order for each season so I figure its worth learning how to do it myself.

Steve

[mudeater18]

Getting the Bert out now, motor will be next. The Carb and Distributor have Gene Nichols sticker ID on them. A google search comes up with a few personal racer home pages who use either one or both item on the car but no web site specifically for Gene. Anyone have any information on these pieces?

As far as the Bert goes, they have a video on their site that covers a re-build, are there any other videos out there? Seems that a rebuild is in order for each season so I figure its worth learning how to do it myself.

SteveThe Berts are a little tricky to rebuild and require a few specialty tools. You can usually have them gone through for $100 plus parts. There should be no need to rebuild them each year. Unless they're mis-used, you should get at least 2-3 seasons out of your rebuild.

[moose52]

100.00 plus the kit? Sounds like a good deal. Got an email or web site? Speaking of parts where do most get replacement parts and supplies for your modifieds?

Steve

[mudeater18]

100.00 plus the kit? Sounds like a good deal. Got an email or web site? Speaking of parts where do most get replacement parts and supplies for your modifieds?

SteveNo specific builders but here is a thread on the subject. I seen that priced mentioned on here several times before.
http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?274064-Bert-Transmission-Rebuild&highlight=bert+rebuild

[JustAddDirt]

Pm sent to Moose 52

[Wayne 0'NO]

Agree a re-build is the best way to go from here. There are some things I am finding that I would like to change. Things as simple as the fuel line from cell to pump is rubber. I always ran 1/2 hard line on the drag cars. As I mentioned the shifter is mounted to a thin sheetmetal shelf and has a lot of play. So I want to change that. I also like the idea of standardization of the hardware and tools. Color code is awesome idea. Very lean manufacturing.... I like that! And I am sure I will find a lot of other things that will surprise me. Also like the slogan "Never under estimate the power of vibrating nuts". Might put that on a shirt.

Steve
I would stick with the rubber hose too i have never ran the hhard line but would think it may ctack with all the vibration and flexing these chassis see and if you have a problem at the track with the push lock stuff you are more likely to find someone that has spare parts you can barrow or replace it u dont have them?

Have to thank you all for the quick responses, I know its much easier to glance over a newbie post and his questions and that it takes time to compose a post. So thank you all! I've belonged to several forums from Drag Racing to Film/Indy film stuff and this group beats them all by a mile. Cavemod and Wildcard22, thank you for the block number information! It will help when ordering parts to have some idea of the block info. Dirttrackrocker has it right in that I wanted to buy as near a turn key car to simply get the seat time before getting to far into it. JS11 has it right in that my plan is seat time with the current car, sell the drag car and support gear and then move forward with a ford powered car. I would certainly say I bleed ford blue, but my favorite car was a 1956 belair. Just like to be different with the Ford drag cars. Will be the same with the next modified.

The shifter as mounted in the car is on very thin sheetmetal, so you don't get the most accurate feel for what neutral is in any gear. I did a google search for Bert Shift pattern and got a decent image what levers go where and more important where the forks out of the trans should be. Currently low and high work fine. Reverse is 'stuck' in neutral as seen from under the car. have not really cranked on it. But I will take your advice and pull it for a re-build. Also noticed while under the car there is not a cross member trans mount. A search of 4m brings up several posts on this. Most suggest a support for OEM bell's and that its not needed for Bert/Brinn style aftermarket bells. So I think that should be on the list as well, along with a more solid mount for the shifters.

You guys say pull the motor, out comes the motor. The list of internals the previous owners gave me sounds good, but never hurts to check things out and as Dirtrackrocker mentioned, its about the seat time. Better to not be chasing leaking rear main seals and weak springs when there are more important things to worry about, like learning to drive.

One last question, on the side of the dash board where you might mount the bias gages there is a thin aluminum plate with 4 LED lights in it, to the side is a female jack plug. Looks like the kind you would plug a headphone jack into. Wire tied to the bias crank is a 9V battery. Any idea on what this is? Communication? Its pretty much self contained and not wires to anything else on the car.

Thanks again for all the help, can't tell you how nice it is to have a resource for questions on the car and set-up.

Thanks,

Steve

Were you thinking about adding a brace to the back of the transmission? With the flexs these cars get it could break more than you save i havent seen a mod with a trans brace in years.

when going through the car make sure every heim joint moves free but dosent have to much play. Also pull the bird cages if they have the nylon liners and clean them really good get all of the old greas and dirt out of them and probably replace the nylon liners just to be safe make sure when it goes back togather the cages will spin freely all the way around and pull them apart every 2heim or 3replace races and clean them. if it has the bering cages rotate them feel for rough sopts in the berings that could cause a bind under a load.

Have all the springs rated at a local race shop the ones around me do it for free so i cant imangine it costing much if they charge in your area. It is a good way to find iif you have a spring going bad or if they are un marked what you have. Take apart your pullbar and coil elimnators and clean and grease/oil them and do that everu 2 to 3 races

Check all the shocks for bent shafts oil leaks make sure there are no rough spots when you move them in and out ect ... make sure that there is no way for them to contacct the upper A frame some times you have to run them with the shaft to the top th get the clearanc you need check all the ball joints and steering to be sure they are straight
hope this helped

[moose52]

Got the trans out of the car. My initial problem of the trans not going into reverse? Not a problem with the trans out. With the side plate removed everything looks good. Reverse gear which I've read takes a lot of damage looked new. Clutch compression also looks good. So here is my question, the trans seems very "touchy" as far as low, high and neutral and reverse neutral so much that's it's real easy to overshoot both neutrals. With the shifter mounted to the trans tunnel sheet metal there is a TON of play. So two questions;

1) is there a way to adjust the shifter rods beyond the spring loaded balls so you can't over shift it?

2) if I cant do the above would a trans mounted shifter allow better settings of the limits on the throws through the shifter?

I'm not looking to over engineer this but the current setup is like a stick in butter.

Steve

[moose52]

I would stick with the rubber hose too i have never ran the hhard line but would think it may ctack with all the vibration and flexing these chassis see and if you have a problem at the track with the push lock stuff you are more likely to find someone that has spare parts you can barrow or replace it u dont have them?


Were you thinking about adding a brace to the back of the transmission? With the flexs these cars get it could break more than you save i havent seen a mod with a trans brace in years.

when going through the car make sure every heim joint moves free but dosent have to much play. Also pull the bird cages if they have the nylon liners and clean them really good get all of the old greas and dirt out of them and probably replace the nylon liners just to be safe make sure when it goes back togather the cages will spin freely all the way around and pull them apart every 2heim or 3replace races and clean them. if it has the bering cages rotate them feel for rough sopts in the berings that could cause a bind under a load.

Have all the springs rated at a local race shop the ones around me do it for free so i cant imangine it costing much if they charge in your area. It is a good way to find iif you have a spring going bad or if they are un marked what you have. Take apart your pullbar and coil elimnators and clean and grease/oil them and do that everu 2 to 3 races

Check all the shocks for bent shafts oil leaks make sure there are no rough spots when you move them in and out ect ... make sure that there is no way for them to contacct the upper A frame some times you have to run them with the shaft to the top th get the clearanc you need check all the ball joints and steering to be sure they are straight
hope this helped

I was not thinking about a brace, just using the existing rear trans tabs and the frame tabs. The Bert is shorter so I was thinking of a custom mount. Something with urethane to provide some amount of flex. I'm using a stock bell. the little info Ive read says no mount with a Bert bell, but yes mount with a stock bell.

Good points on the shocks, both rears have nice dents in the body. Going to go through the suspension pieces once the trans goes back in.

Steve

[mudeater18]

With the shifter mounted to the trans tunnel sheet metal there is a TON of play. So two questions;

1) is there a way to adjust the shifter rods beyond the spring loaded balls so you can't over shift it?



One way to help is make sure the shifter/tunnel is very solid with no movement. I like using 1/8" or more alum for the tunnel instead of .040 body sheet metal (you'll be glad you did when you sling a driveshaft too!)

After its solidly mounted, try using different holes to mount your linkage rods at the bottom of the shifter (it should have 3 or 4 options), find a balance between the leverage and amount of throw that works best. Also make sure the rods aren't able to touch each other which maybe moving them both when you shift one.

[Wayne 0'NO]

I would agree with making a stiffer tunnel to mount the shifter i used the thin stuff on my car last year and had alot of slop too im going to use 3/16 dimond plate for my new one so it will be stiffer and look good too lol

[moose52]

I would agree with making a stiffer tunnel to mount the shifter i used the thin stuff on my car last year and had alot of slop too im going to use 3/16 dimond plate for my new one so it will be stiffer and look good too lol

Yup, I hear ya brother! After reading several posts on here about U joint/drive shaft failures and the idea of only .040 aluminum between my leg and a spinning piece of metal I plan to put some plate on the top and side of the trans tunnel. Should help with the shifter mount and provide a little extra protection.

Steve

[loneranger155]

The LEDs are for air fuel ratio monitoring. Should be a button on the wheel you can activate while running and will hold the reading until you can check it in the pits. Check the C&S Carb website . It will have all the info you need on it. Nice little device to monitor if you are right with carb jetting.

[CanMod3d]

I am new also.....my chassis builder told me to run a 4 easy up on the right rear. Would I notice a difference with a 3 -3 ? I'm new to these cars and not sure how much a difference it would make to someone who doesn't know what the car should feel like.