superstock top end combo

[propit21]

i know i have asked alot of question on here about our cam and head selection and i thank everyone that have givin imput it has greatly helped. I have some question again i hope some of you can answer.

we have a 383 that needs to be rebuilt and we are thinking of changing the cam agian to try and make a little more power towards the end of the straights.
motor specs
383 all steel with gm casting
light weight crank
6 inch rods
dome pistons
220 motown worlds heads
cam is a jr motorsports 109 cam
performance product hurrican maniforld with a 950 cfm hp series carb, professionaly built

called crower to ask about the cam selection and they recommended the 00308 cam for this engine, i know its been said before to run this cam its a good cam. but will it help with end of straight pull

Also we have a set of darts 230 heads, if we left everything the same except for the heads and cam what would we need to look for in a camshaft to but those heads back on the motor. we also have a 7800 rpm chip rule in the class and the driver likes the 7600 rpm range.
its going to be on gas and its close to 13.1 compression motor after i looked at all the specs. We run a imca g-60 tires and its a 3000lbs car. Track is a good size paper clip style 3/8 track, tacky in the heats and dry in the main with a decent cushion.

Thank you everyone for the help, will get cam specs up a little later

[perfconn]

Best thing you could do would be to put a smaller carburetor on it.The 950 is way to big.

[propit21]

I think so to, the carb builder guarantee us that it will work just fine. So far havent had any problem witj but i do agree with you it sure seems big

When going with bigger heads on a motor whay are you looking for in a cam to help with bigger heads

[perfconn]

Rocker ratio plays a big part in how aggressive the cam can be but the duration at.050 needs to be 256@.050 on the intake and 262@.050 on the exhaust.Ground on 106 degreed on 102.

[let-r-eat]

You don't have enough lift. You have plenty of duration. You need .650 lift minimum on the intake and .620 on the exhaust.The carb might work if you don't drop down below 5000 rpms or so but a 750 or 830 would be plenty......I wouldn't change the heads. Both are about the same overall......Throw the hurricane intake in the garbage and put a real Super Vic intake on that thing.

[let-r-eat]

I think so to, the carb builder guarantee us that it will work just fine. So far havent had any problem witj but i do agree with you it sure seems bigWhen going with bigger heads on a motor whay are you looking for in a cam to help with bigger headsAll the bigger heads are going to do is RAISE the peak HP rpm and/or pk torque rpm. There is no crutching that with a cam. Some think so but all your doing is cutting back the duration and killing where the heads were made to run even more.There is no substitute for having the proper heads for the cubes/rpm range of the engine.If your going out there and dropping down to 3500 rpms in the corners and you have monster heads you're just defeating the purpose. You need a combination. Everything works together.

[propit21]

These will be my cam choices

@ 50" 254/262
Lobe center 105
1.5 rockers
or
@50" 252/260
Lobe center 105
1.6 int/1.5 exh rockers
Or
@50 260/266
Lobe center 105
1.5 rockers
Or
@50" 262/266
Lobe 106
Rockers 1.5
Or
@50" 259/269
Lobe 106 installed at 102 intake centerline
1.5 rockers

What would be the best choice for the 383 with 230 darts and what would be good for the 220 worlds

[DaveBauerSS6]

I agree with these guys.
That track is similar to Tulare, long straights and tight enough corners to drop the rpm too much. Add you are on a chip, so no big gear, big rpm scream the motor deal. You need good torque to get out of the corner. I've always felt the Crower grinds feel better out the corners. But they never have enough lift for my liking. They work , the lift just looks funny to me. No dyno numbers to prove it.
My IMCA Stock Car has 600 lift, and I went easy with it.
Stay with the 220s.
Get a 750 carb.
Get a super victor, a one of those super suckers.
i think the crower cam would be fine if you ran 1.65 or 1.7 rockers.
Cut the heads down as much as you can.

[perfconn]

Why are you limiting yourself to those cam choices? None of them are right.

[propit21]

no not really limiting to those choices, the first on i mention is a crower circle track cam off the shelf that is close to the number that you mention, the second one is the one crower on the phone said would work good for what we are trying to do, the third one is one that a friend that builds engine recommended, the fourth cam is one we got from comp cams when we first put the engine together with the dart 230 heads, and the last one is the one in the motor now which is a jr motorsport 109 cam.

We have just been getting our horsepower alot lately and want to know what we can do to make our 383 better. We know its a much better engine then it has been performing lately and the other thing we are just trying to learn as we go as well. The setup in the car is spot on it just trying to get the power out of the motor and get bad luck off our side. Am i willing to to find whatever motor setup that will work and make more horsepower and torque then we have now

thanks for all the help guys it means alot

[hogracer3d]

We have never had an intake runner bigger than 210, and a carb bigger than 800 ish, but we mostly run 360's, have one 400+ that we haven't run in 1-1/2 years

Your package sure seems to be a perfect fit for a pair of large Bowtie Vortec's and a Tony Barker designed cam, but that's just me, lol....

[DaveBauerSS6]

We have never had an intake runner bigger than 210, and a carb bigger than 800 ish, but we mostly run 360's, have one 400+ that we haven't run in 1-1/2 years

you missed your imca meeting

[hogracer3d]

Yes I did, but the driver was there,
I had a $770K bid due today, and have been sick for a week, lol

[DaveBauerSS6]

Yes I did, but the driver was there,
I had a $770K bid due today, and have been sick for a week, lol
Get well,, good luck with the bid.

[hogracer3d]

Get well,, good luck with the bid.

Thanks, but I was just an % guestimator on this one, but it still gave me the shartz in the waining hours.... Lol

[sj valley dave]

Propit, we ran that 00308 Crower as per Bill Hendren's suggestion a few years ago..We ran Crower S/S 1.7/1.6 combo and ended up with .608/.586 lift combo on a set of Dart 215's that had been slightly rolled over. It would pull hard up to the 8200 chip, did not nose over...I would as Dave Bauer suggested, get a smaller carb, a Super Vic, keep the 220's on it or switch over to the Darts and run the 00308 and you will be a happy camper..IMO

[propit21]

sj dave-so you are saying that 00308 cam will work in a 383 with 220 worlds just fine. Do we need to run a 1.6/1.5 rocker combo or the 1.7/1.6 combo.

Perfconn- do we need to get a special grind cam with the number you recommend because i can not find those number for any off the shelf cam. If so i read on here you perfer comp cams would that be the cam maker of choice. also what else beside the carb would we need to make sure we have to make that combo work. we have 1.5 rockers on both int/ext right now.

let r eat- why is the hurrican manifold bad, ive heard ok things about them, don't mind getting a new manifold but just wondering what makes the victor jr so much better

with the combo we have now are we overflowing what our motor can do at lower rpms? If i understand correctly we are not producing any torque at lower rpm with the motor combo we have because it flows to much fuel and air and not getting rid of it fast enough unless we turn more rpm's?

[Egoracing]

Not the Victor jr but the 2925. It is one of the best overall intakes for a small block that uses 23 degree heads. We have dyno'd them on 350ci motors with .450 lift to 430+ci roller cam motors and it tested the best out of 10 intakes on every engine we tried it on.

[perfconn]

Yes,Comp Cam is the only cams I use.A custom ground cam is the same price as a shelf cam so why use a shelf cam.Normally only takes 2-3 days and you have a cam thats right for your engine.You can order a cam for whatever rockers you have.They have lobes from the low threes to five hundred.

[propit21]

can you pm me or tell me in this forum what i spec i need to tell them i want. i am learning here and don't want to screw things up which i do alot haha. Thanks for the help again.

[sj valley dave]

If you do run the 00308 I would suggest the 1.7/1.6 rocker combo...We went with this when Hendren suggested the cam...We played with some different rockers combo's on the dyno when we had the 360" built and that combo worked the best...

[perfconn]

Before I can give you lobe numbers I need more information like carburetor size,stainless or titanium valves,rocker ratios,compression ratio,intake runner size,maximum rpm.

[propit21]

ok we have options since we are doing complete rebuild of the motor and are going to buy some new parts.

Perfconn- heads with be the motown 220 head with 64cc chambers, carb size will be eaither a 950 cfm or 750 cfm which we are in the process of building, we will run whatever carb works best for what track we are at. compression of the motor is close to 13 to 1, stainless steel valves, max rpm will be 7800. The engine will get a new victor jr or super jr intake manifold also we are using a 1 inc wilson manifold tapered billet spacer. the motor is on gas.

Went to the shop today and did some digging around and found a cam that we had in another one of our motors. And turns out its a comp cams 12-657-5 which has a lobe sep of 106, int/exh at 050" 256/262, valve lift of int/exh 0.549/0.543 and valve timing at 0.02. Was wonding if this is the cam we need and if so can we use it again with new lifter or do we need to get a new one with new lifters and all from comp? Do we need to get new rocker arms because we have 1.5 on both int/exh or do we get 1.6 or 1.7s?

We also have a 355 motor we are putting back together and going to be using some double hump heads that have been ported and polish. We are going to go with the 00308 cam from crower with that one. it seems like it will be a good combo to go with. With the 355 do we neeed to go with 1.6 or1.7 rockers as well or will 1.5 be fine.

thanks for the help guys.

[perfconn]

Degree the intake lobe in on 102* and use a new set of lifters on the Comp 12-657-5

[C10]

I wouldnt change the cam personally at first. I would change that God awful hurricane pos intake, and get a better carb. The Vic jr, or Super Vic will really change how that thing behaves in the upper rpm.

[let-r-eat]

sj dave-so you are saying that 00308 cam will work in a 383 with 220 worlds just fine. Do we need to run a 1.6/1.5 rocker combo or the 1.7/1.6 combo. Perfconn- do we need to get a special grind cam with the number you recommend because i can not find those number for any off the shelf cam. If so i read on here you perfer comp cams would that be the cam maker of choice. also what else beside the carb would we need to make sure we have to make that combo work. we have 1.5 rockers on both int/ext right now.let r eat- why is the hurrican manifold bad, ive heard ok things about them, don't mind getting a new manifold but just wondering what makes the victor jr so much betterwith the combo we have now are we overflowing what our motor can do at lower rpms? If i understand correctly we are not producing any torque at lower rpm with the motor combo we have because it flows to much fuel and air and not getting rid of it fast enough unless we turn more rpm's?The cross section on the Hurricane is too large. Made for drag racing. Also its not good in stock form.

[propit21]

i know am bringing this up again just wanting to learn and get what will work the best. Here is a cam spec that i have been looking at and wondering what might be the result of running on our engine set up. Again this a is a 3000 lbs superstock 3 link car on gas, motor is a 383 with lightwight bottom end, 6 inch rods, 7 cc domes with 220 world motown heads, going to get a super victor or the one inch taller one and it will be either on a 950 cfm hp holley or 750 cfm hp holley. 7800 rpm chip rule, track is normal dry and dusty for the main tight corner 3/8mile track.

cam specs
duration at .050 int 258/ext 262
valve lift int .570/ext 5.80 thats with 1.5 rockers but will more then likely run 1.6 on the intake?
lobe center 106*
ADV duration int 286*/ext 290*

@ .050
intake open 23 btdc exhaust open 57 bbdc
intake close 55 abdc exhaust close 25 atdc

[DANNY]

Propit21- I would take Terry's advise and not limit yourself to an "ok" cam rather then the cam that will do what your motor needs. As Ego and others said get a 2925 intake and a 2" HVH super sucker. Your runnin WCSS rules right?

[propit21]

Yes we run wuss rules. This cam is real close to what he recommends I believe. This is an isky camshaft. We have a real nice Wilson manifold tapered spacer already. What makes the super victor so much better then the hurricane. Just want to make the right decisions and not keep spending money for unneeded parts.

[sj valley dave]

The 2925 has a smaller CSA with longer runners than the Hurricane. Will work better on a circle track deal almost always...

[Bubstr]

All the bigger heads are going to do is RAISE the peak HP rpm and/or pk torque rpm. There is no crutching that with a cam. Some think so but all your doing is cutting back the duration and killing where the heads were made to run even more.There is no substitute for having the proper heads for the cubes/rpm range of the engine.If your going out there and dropping down to 3500 rpms in the corners and you have monster heads you're just defeating the purpose. You need a combination. Everything works together.

This is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. COMBINATION.

You first weigh any restrictions, such as carb size or RPM limitations. You then find or make a port, valve and head angle that will make a useable horsepower curve. You then pick a cam and carb to fit the needs of these. When you start tweaking with cams, timing or carbs that where not meant for the combination, you will always lose something for anything you gain. This usually makes your power curve shorter in duration or lower on power. This is why a good head porter gets the big bucks.

With this said, you sometimes can add to the top end of your power curve at the cost of the bottom. There is no free horsepower. The real trick is getting a good curve and gearing for it.

[let-r-eat]

You are on the right track Prop21. The 220 heads are fine and that 7cc dome srp piston. You don't want a 950cfm carburetor. I would get the seat duration around 292-294 and those heads can use around 300-302 seat duration on the exhaust. A good 1 3/4 header and your set.Terry is giving you some good advice on the cam. I would run a little shorter on duration than he would with those 220's on a 383 but I don't know how momentum your track is. You can probably run 254 or 256 intake and 260 262 exhaust on 106 Intake centerline on a 107 or 108 lobe center.Isky is my cam of choice here because that's what I have experience with but Comp/Crane/Erson/and Mark at Bullet can point you in the right direction. I like Crower also...............don't get me wrong, their cams are just fine. The few degrees on the cam isn't going to be that big of a factor. You just need to run the engine in the RPM band it's going to be designed for. Those 220 heads should work pretty (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) good on a 383 turning 7800.

[propit21]

Thanks guys, yes I wish we could have a little better combo for the motor but this is what we have and trying to make the best out of it. With that we are on a 7800 rpm chip rule so I know we are limited a little with the heads we have. If I understand right the shorter duration will bring the peak power down in the rpm. The isky cam is installed straight up so it will be at 106 intake centerline. And the lobe is also 106. How much would a wider lsa help bring the rpm range down.

[propit21]

A little update, got the motors together by the engine guy. BTW looking for a good engine shop person in southern california, we are sick and tired of the guy we are using. Went with a isky cam for the 383 the cam 201571. Would recommend isky racing cams to anyone looking for a new cam or valve train part. What a stand up company the customer service is the best you are ever going to get, Ron Iskenderian himself helped us on the phone for like 2 hours called our engine guy himself to explain so issue we were having with the valve springs and gave us a great deal on a new set of spring since we got the wrong ones. Awesome company can't say it enough if you need any valve train part go with ISKY.

Anyway haven't ran the motors yet just picked them up but our hardheaded engine guy said the cam we choose which is the 201571 isn't enough cam for our motor and its to small.
cam specs
duration at .050 int 258/ext 262
valve lift int .570/ext 5.80 thats with 1.5 rockers
lobe center 106*
ADV duration int 286*/ext 290*

@ .050
intake open 23 btdc exhaust open 57 bbdc
intake close 55 abdc exhaust close 25 atdc

Our engine guy tells me i don't know what am talking about and that the motor is going to lay down on power for us. I am going on what i ve been told here and the little ive been learning about cams. I have called isky and asked them about the cam and they agree it should work just great and should be happy with it. Just looking for a little reinsurance that we made the right choice in cams. Again its a 383 with light weight internals, 6 inch rods 7 cc domes, world motown 220 heads, hurrican intake with the isky valve train.

Our engine builder then went ahead and assamble our 355 back up motor witha cam that he had that he said will be better then what we have in the 383 yet he won't tell us what he put in the motor. the only thing he told us was valve lash setting and it had more lift then the isky cam. the 355 motor has double hump 2.02 64cc chamber heads ported and polish heads with victor jr intake, 6 inch rods with 7 cc domes. What is everyone opinion on this should we just run it and see how it runs or try and find our what cam he put in it. Long story short we are looking for a new engine guys.

Thanks for listining

[RaceTechKs]

Propit21: The thing I must ask is...WHY did you not do what these guys told you too and trash the Hurrican Intake. ???These guys give good advice for free and if folks dont listen they wont keep giving it to you when you ask them again. And your engine guy may be right, the 355 may run better as long as you keep using the wrong intake on the 383. NOW: If my engine guy would not tell me what he put in my engine, all I can say is SEE-YA......Hes a joke don't go back.

[propit21]

I know I agree with all of you I do. I believe we will change it soon but it was just one more expense right now of a high $$ bill. We figure when can change the intake out a little later on. Should we go with victor jr, or super victor.

[DANNY]

Super victor 2925 all the way. I know some engine builders keep cams a secret just like car owners will allow tear downs until is involves the cam as long as it is of legal nature. Cams are a huge part in what makes an engine do what it does and many once they find "the one" are not willing to let that info out. However if my builder tried keeping it a secret we would have a huge talk or I would go someplace else as well...