Bert starter/flywheel grind issue

[merc123]

First time running a Bert. I got it all bolted up with a new starter. I've spun the motor over with it several times and even used it to get the oil pressure up in the motor where it had been sitting. It would spin for a good 30 or 45 seconds with no problems.

Recently we tightened down the front motor mount bolts to the chassis, put the driveshaft in, added brake fluid to the tranny and bled it, then filled with ATF fluid. I turned the motor over to show my crew chief how fast the motor spun over with the Bert vs. the stock starter and then went inside.

Tonight I went to turn it over to check a power steering leak and it would turn and then start grinding and stop turning. When I looked at it the gear in the bell housing engages (fully) the flywheel then it slips back to it's "start" position. I added grease to it through the fitting and checked it again and it's still doing it. What might be the problem?

[Rhino22r]

You probably need to add spacers on the back of your crank. There's a clearance spec, don't remember it now, but it isn't much. Add the midplate and you have a huge gap there. One of the suppliers sells a kit for it.

[merc123]

I don't think it's the flywheel. I think it's either the starter or the idler gear. The gear is completely engaged on the flywheel and then it starts to move back to the original position which causes it to slip off the flywheel and grind. I'm wondering if it's the starter not working right to push the idler gear out.

[AmickRacing]

throwing some ideas out there... throw the battery charger on it for a while and try. Maybe the battery is getting a little low and not allowing the starter to push the gear out far enough?

[Matt49]

If it appears to be engaging all the way and then backing off it could be a starter problem. But check your gap to be sure. Should be 60-80 thousandths when not engaged.

I've always been told to and always have used an oil primer prior to the first start of the season rather than using the starter. Off topic but something to take into consideration.

[merc123]

throwing some ideas out there... throw the battery charger on it for a while and try. Maybe the battery is getting a little low and not allowing the starter to push the gear out far enough?

I will try that. It is pushing the gear far enough. It's just backing off after a half to 3/4 turn of motor.


If it appears to be engaging all the way and then backing off it could be a starter problem. But check your gap to be sure. Should be 60-80 thousandths when not engaged.

I've always been told to and always have used an oil primer prior to the first start of the season rather than using the starter. Off topic but something to take into consideration.

I will check gap. Going to pull starter tomorrow and check it too. I read that about priming after the fact also.

[9WRACER]

Is this a bert or a brinn bellhousing? We found that a brinn bellhousing takes a brinn flywheel. The bert is just a little bit smaller in diameter and it will work for awhile, then it knocks the teeth off the flywheel and won't stay engaged. Fought this forever til I got a brinn flywheel and compaired the difference.

[JustAddDirt]

What brand of starter do you have?
Might be a problem in the bendix assembly.
All race starters (such as Bert, and others) start life starting Toyota 4 cylinder trucks.
But they need a spring removed in the bendix assembly to work as a race starter.
They also need the gear welded on so it does not push back the splines on the shaft, and it engages the idler gear. Very simple. Been building my own for years.

[merc123]

Bert bell. Bert flywheel. It's a 2 piece flywheel. I'm wondering if I have the ring on backwards?

Charged battery. It's was at 60%, now at 100%.
I have used a new Powermaster XS starter. Going over to a friend's to get his starter and see what it does.
Checked and it is not in any gear.

http://youtu.be/KeRyoL1_pOE
http://youtu.be/ZHDeQfNqEtE
http://youtu.be/_2POF-ZaIcM

[merc123]

Tried my starter on friends motor and works just fine.

Tried another battery just in case mine had a bad cell, no dice.

Measured the spacing and used some feeler gauges and added up they were about .122. Guess I'll have to get a crank spacer...

[JustAddDirt]

Make sure you have the gear on the correct direction, I am not even sure if it would go on backwards.
Almost certain you need a couple spacters to shim the gear back and you will b good to go.

[merc123]

I turned the ring around and it is indeed on right. Turning it around definitely won't allow for complete engagement. With the gear completely pushed as far as it would go it would only engage 1/4 of the teeth.

Something else I did was I held a screw driver against the back of the idler gear to the point where the starter pushed it out. As long as I held the screw driver and the idler gear out it would keep spinning. Once I removed the screw driver the idler gear would disengage the flywheel and move back to the start position while still spinning then kick back out and grinds against the flywheel.

[LH17]

put a flate washer between the starter and the bellhousing put bolts thru the starter then put one flate washer on bolt some time it takes two to fix the problem try it problem will be gone

[merc123]

put a flate washer between the starter and the bellhousing put bolts thru the starter then put one flate washer on bolt some time it takes two to fix the problem try it problem will be gone

Space the starter away from the bell housing?

[JustAddDirt]

is your starter a race starter?
just wandering if someone forgot to remove one of the springs insde the starter bendix.
the gear should flip easily in and out, with no resistance.

[Matt49]

Space the starter away from the bell housing?

If you've got too much gap between the flywheel and the idler (which at .120, you definitely do), you need to shim the flywheel, not the starter.

[merc123]

is your starter a race starter?
just wandering if someone forgot to remove one of the springs insde the starter bendix.
the gear should flip easily in and out, with no resistance.

Yep. The gear is actually stuck out. I can push it in and it'll pop back out on its own. Takes very little effort to move it in and out.


If you've got too much gap between the flywheel and the idler (which at .120, you definitely do), you need to shim the flywheel, not the starter.

That's why I was asking him why he wanted me to shim the starter and not the flywheel. Thinking he thought it was a block mount starter.

[JustAddDirt]

It should have a little spring to it in the last 1/2" being shoved in, but basically flop in and out both directions other than the last 1/2 of being shoved in all the way.
I would say a couple shims on the flywheel should do it .

[merc123]

We have a winner! It needed shimming.

I was only able to find one .040 Bert shim locally and it worked but not completely. Found some .066 washers that measured out all the same and put them behind the flywheel and it will spin for days without pulling away.

Next question now, would ungraded washers be safe behind the flywheel or go ahead and break down and buy another shim.

[jrkracing54]

We have a winner! It needed shimming.

I was only able to find one .040 Bert shim locally and it worked but not completely. Found some .066 washers that measured out all the same and put them behind the flywheel and it will spin for days without pulling away.

Next question now, would ungraded washers be safe behind the flywheel or go ahead and break down and buy another shim.

The shims are very cheap.

[merc123]

The issue came back. I had 2, .040 shims behind it. When I put 3, .040 shims in it fixes the problem but then the flywheel will occasionally hit the idler gear and spark or it won't let it fully disengage and spinds the idler with the motor until you shut motor off. It only does it maybe 1 in 10 starts. The only thing that has changed is I had to get the bellhousing rewelded where it cracked through the weld. The had to cut a lot off and he tig welded it back together. I tried PB blaster and then grease on the idler to see if that may be the issue and it didn't fix it.

It seems like I might need a .020 or .030 shim instead of a .040. Do they make them?

[speedbuggy]

Sounds to me like you have a starter that is going bad. Speedway has a .030 shim if you want to go that route -

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Bert-Transmission-324-Flywheel-Shim-Chevy,57687.html

I had similar problems at the start of the season. Had to replace the starter. I dealt with DBR (http://www.dbrstarters.com/). Their service was excellent and prices very reasonable.

[merc123]

I may try a different starter and see where it gets me.

[speedbuggy]

You might as well replace the idler gear spring while you're at it. If it is weak, it might keep the idler from disengaging the flywheel (this is a reach, but might as well do it for $3-$4 bucks).

[Lizardracing]

Check all electrical connections. I don't mean just wiggle them either. I mean take them apart and sand them clean and shiny to reduce the resistance. The starter could very well need more electricity to maintain the engagement. If the battery were weak, it might be able to deliver the electricity needed for a short period of time but lose it too quickly. The problem is much worse on small batteries that are barely big enough anyway. Add some bad connections or corroded wires and you got a problem.

[Anna Jackson]

The shims are very cheap. You are right .. looking fine..