setup

[floppyfoot]

My son recently purchased a street stock dirt track car, it has been 10 years since we raced. The car is a 1988 Monte Carlo with a 358. It has a floater rear end with a 9" ford and a 6:50 gear, turning 7000 rpm's. Only ran 1 race and the car has a severe push going in then snaps loose. Wheels are 15X12 and tires are 90x11x15 Hoosiers. I put it on scales, it has to weigh 3275#. After adding about 400#, it was that light with the driver, I have 53% rear, 53.7 cross, and 53.6 left side weight. It has 275# bite. Took suspension apart and found these springs, RF-1300#, LF-1100#,LR-350#, RR-250#. Here is what I plan on using, RF-800#, LF-900#, RR-250#, LR-225#. Anysuggestion would be welcome.We did win 9 races the last year we ran in mini modifieds with a Toyota.

[floppyfoot]

Air pressures were RF-14#, LF-10#, RR-10#, LR-12#. Wheels are 2" offset all around. Car also has 4 link in rear and aftermarket tublar upper A arms on front. RF front has app. 3 degrees neg. camber and LF has app. 1 degree positive camber.

[setup479point2]

Springs LF 850 RF 900 LR 225 RR 200 . Air LF 12 RF 14 LR 8 RR 12 . Shock LF 5 RF 6 LR 4 RR 4. Camber LF +2to3 RF -5 to -6 , Caster LF +2 RF +5, Toe out 3/8". Bite 150 lbs , Left 54.5 , Rear is ok . Make sure rear ride heights are equal to or higher than front. Make sure weight is not too low , 18" to 24 " from ground and no further back than center of fuel cell if possible. This should get you close.

[floppyfoot]

Looks like the springs will not be here until at least Thursday and maybe Friday. Did get to set the camber today, RF -6, LF +4, have not check ed camber ye or the toe, waiting on the springs. With the old springs still in and a little weight removed, 3330# with driver and full 16 gal fuel cell. My weight is all in front of the fuel cell and almost right over the rear end with some in front of the rear end. It will probably be Friday night before I will get to scale the car again and with new springs.

[floppyfoot]

Here is what I ended up with, I hope this gets me close.springs: RF-800, LF-900, RR-225, LR-250.Weights: Rear 52.4%: left 53.1%: cross 49.7%: bite 82#Toe out 3/16ride heights: RF 6 1/2" LF 6" RR 6 3/4" LR 6 1/4"camber: RF -5 1/2 LF +3castor unknown at this time

[setup479point2]

Here is what I ended up with, I hope this gets me close.springs: RF-800, LF-900, RR-225, LR-250.Weights: Rear 52.4%: left 53.1%: cross 49.7%: bite 82#Toe out 3/16ride heights: RF 6 1/2" LF 6" RR 6 3/4" LR 6 1/4"camber: RF -5 1/2 LF +3castor unknown at this time Add a little more toe out ,better too much than not enough . Also make sure your steering is straight , find the center of your steering ,and make sure wheels are pointed straight, not off to left or right. Would have rather seen the 900 in RF and 800 in LF. If you have weight jacks in back put about 3 turns in LR and that will add some bite. Caster , if you don't have a gauge , look straight down on ball joint with car on ground and at ride height , RF should be top balljoint 3/4 inch back further than lower balljoint , and LF should be 1/4" back , this equals about LF +2 , RF +5. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

[floppyfoot]

That looks real close to what the caster is set at. For some reason at our track, most all cars are running the stiffer spring on the left front. We do run spring jacks on the rear but are not allowed on the front. We are running 1/2" of stagger on the rear with a Detroit locker and 6:50 gears with Hoosier tires, track rules.

[setup479point2]

If you can, get more stagger in rear 2" if possible , 0 to 1" in front . If it is still pushing raise rear about 5 turns per side. Also are your brakes working properly make sure you are getting more rear brake than front.

[floppyfoot]

Car can run 3 or 4 wheel brake, not allowed to use 3 wheel at this track. Also, have a brake adjuster in car, running it balanced right now. This car also has adjustable lower trailing arms with a 4 link setup. The uppers are not adjustable except for length. Have about 5 degrees down pinion angle.

[floppyfoot]

Ride heights are set in the front with the left tie rod slightly uphill to the outside and the right tie rod level. This is with the driver in the seat. We have never ran a Detroit locker before and I am not sure about just how it works. We have always ran a welded rearend and could only use around 1/4 to 1/2 " of stagger or we would be loose off. My understand of the weaker right front spring is to let the car roll over to get rear steer. I could be way off base but the other cars in our class are doing that just like the sportsman and late model cars. With the 1300 # spring in the right front, it was there when we got the car because it was ran at another track with high banking, the car pushed like a snow plow. Our track has about 8 degrees of progressive banking with longer turns and shorter straights, it is a 3/8 track and really gets dry slick in hot weather.

[setup479point2]

Should be running brake all the way to the rear if your car is tight entering corner , not balanced . With the locker you may not need much stagger, never worked with one. Any advice I give you is stuff I know works.

[floppyfoot]

Hot laps before the race, the car was extremely loose all the way through the turns. Went down 2 rounds on the left rear jack screw and up 2 rounds on the right rear. Lowered both lower trailing arms down 1 hole, that is as far as they will go. Had 1" stagger. The car got into the turns much better but was very loose under power. I guess I went a little too far from last week. Will try to close the stagger up to 0, and maybe make the left lower trailing arm a little longer. The rear end in the car has a feeling of moving around some but everything is tight. I jusr wonder if the Detroit locker is giving it that feel. Still had a 5th place finish. Thought it was 5th last week but it was 6th then. Any and all suggestions are welcome.

[setup479point2]

Swap the front springs.What happened is what I figured would happen . Make sure you've got at least 150 lbs bite , more bite is OK. At least you're not pushin like a truck

[floppyfoot]

That is in my mind, also have a 200 spring that I was considering installing on the right rear, it has a 225 now with a 250 on the left rear. Do you think the 200 spring may help also? The front springs in now, 900 left, 800 right are the way the 3 link cars are running, we have a 4 link. I need to raise the right front, there is about 6" tire clearance and the fender is still coming down on the tire, it did this with the 1300 spring there but only had 3 1/2 ' clearance then. I have the 3 link system that I could put in, then there is a whole new game to setup and the rules may change next year. there is talk about combining some classes next year. We run the same tires as sportsman and late model. They have 14" wheels andwe have 12" wheels.

[Driver88]

You should probably get a lil seat time to make sure it the car and not the driver (No offense intended I'm doing the same thing right now). And just change 1 thing at a time Instead of 2 or 3 now that your close.

[setup479point2]

200 RR is what I suggested you run . 900 RF , 800 LF . I pretty much gave you a complete set up , that I know works. If you choose to do something else, you probably really don't want help.

[floppyfoot]

There is no way we can get any seat time. We get 5 laps to run before the race and then 25 laps of racing. that is all. One problem is getting used to the quick steering box. it is a 2-1 ratio. It only takes 1/2 turn of the steering wheel to go from lock to lock.

[floppyfoot]

I am going to put the 900 in the RF and the 800 in the LF. Also have the 200 in the RR and the 250 is in the LR. Bite is 154. Rear weight is a little low I think at 51.4%. When we raced before, I always used a heavier spring in the RF and LR. I did find out why they are runing the LR with a stiffer spring, they are trying to get the most bite off the RR. Almost all are running a 3 link setup, we have that for the car but do not know if we will ever use it. The rules are changing next year with maybe pure stock and street stock being one class. The track owner has 2 tracks that are about 50 miles apart and we run on different nights. As far as shocks go, we have to run a stock type shock that is not adjustable, wish we could run coil overs.

[floppyfoot]

I have the 900 RF, 800 LF, 250 LR, 200 RR. It really dropped on the LF. It is 1 3/4" lower than the RF. I did not think it would drop that much but it did. LF is the lowest corner and the RF is the highest. Should that be correct???I was thinking the LR should be lower, I can drop it with the rear screw jacks.

[setup479point2]

Are the springs different height? It should not have changed more than 3/8". the 800 must be shorter. Any way of lowering RF or raising LF ? What are the ride heights? Make sure rear is equal or higher than front. Are the springs seated properly top and bottom?

[floppyfoot]

The springs are the same length. I do have adjustable spacers on top of the front springs. They are still set like they were. I do not have my sheets with me right now, but if I remember right, there was around 3/4 to 1" difference before the change. I can take the LF out and make an adjustment to bring it up. I am concerned about the right front. With 6 3/4" of fender clearance, the fender was still coming down on the tire, those 12" tires are not cheap. The tire is not cut to the point of being hurt yet. The fender hit the tire with the 1300 spring in there but only had 3 1/2" clearance. I cut the fender out more, there is not much left of the fender. I have the rear screw jacks down right far to get the rear up some. Wish I had the measurements with me. I can get them in the morning and will post the ride heights. I think the RF is 7 1/4", RR 7 1/2", LR 6 1/2", LF 5 1/2". If that is not correct, it is close.

[setup479point2]

Raise LF to 6 3/4" and LR to 7". Can go higher on LR if you need to to get bite . If weight jacks in back are down too far get longer springs if you can . As long as they have full threads they shouldn't cause any problem . Cut out the fender more if you need to , with 6 3/4 clearance you shouldn't be hitting , make sure you have enough shock on that corner. Can you video the car racing ? That would make it easier to see any problems.

[floppyfoot]

We do have a video of the last race. I can raise the LF without too much of a problem, just take it apart and adjust the spacer. We were thinking about going to a 13" spring on the rear, the top of the rear springs are down out of the bucket but we still have some adjustment left.Will post the exact ride heights shortly as soon as I get to the shop. It was very loose under acceleration as soon as he stepped on it. It would break loose at the drop of the green flag, just spinning the tires.

[floppyfoot]

PF-5 1/2: RF-7: LR-6 1/2: RR-7 5/8 This is right now, will see what I can do with it and post back.

[setup479point2]

Take RR to 7 1/4 and raise left . All my ride height measurement are from ground to frame , in front where frame turns to go back , and in back where frame turns up ( near lower control arm ). 13" springs is better if you can .

[floppyfoot]

Can't get the 13" springs in time for this weekend. I took the LF apart and adjusted the spacer down 5/8". Here is what I ended up with. LF-7 1/4: RF-7 1/4: RR-7 1/2: LR- 7/12 with 52.9% rear: 53.5% left: 52.7% cross: 170# bite. I can change that. It only had 126# bite brfore I moved it after raising the LF. If I take a little bite out, that should lower the LR rear a little, would that help? I measure the ride height ijn the same place that you do. These measurements are taken with the driver in the seat. I have 1/4" stagger in rear and 1" in front. Just a little change on one corner sure changes a lot in other places. I will drop the RR a little and raise the LR a little if you think I should from this point.Thanks for your help.

[setup479point2]

Leave it as is . Double check your caster , camber , toe out , just to make sure nothing changed. If you'd like post the vid to youtube and give me the link , also take pics of suspension if you want. You can PM those if you don't want to post on here.

[floppyfoot]

My daughter-in-law will have to post it to U tube. It might be next week after the race this weekend and maybe we can post both races. They are going away a few days next week for their anniversary. I want to thank you for your help. It has been 10 years since we raced and things have changed a lot. I found our old setup sheets and the way the car is now, it is very close to the same %. Will let you know what takes place.

[floppyfoot]

Still extremely loose under power. Gets in good but spinning coming off. The RR tire was very hot, the LR tire was cool. Gained 1/2" stagger during the race. It seems like it has no side bite at all.Thinking of going to a 3 link. We are the only one run not running a 3 link setup.

[setup479point2]

If it is loose now and it was tight with LF 1100 , RF 1300 , put in LF 900 , RF 1100 that's in the middle. Always compare where you were and where you're at. Can you change gear ratio ?

[floppyfoot]

I can change the springs. As far as the gear ratio is concerned, I plan on pulling that out tomorrow anyway. I want to make sure what is in there, also the spool should be here on Tuesday. Our parts store is supposed to have evey carrier bearing on hand that a 9" Ford used. There are 3 different ones listed. We do not have any more gears right now and it would be hard to have them as we race again this coming Friday instead of Saturday. My son will be away this week until Thursday night, it is his anniversary. Would I need to rescale the car with thisspring change? The scales are borrowed for a friend.

[floppyfoot]

I just found a set of 6:20 gear still in the box, never been mounted for $100. Sure would like to have another housing to try them in. I will have to look around.Have you ever hear of using a panhart bar with our type suspension? I did on our old mini modifired and it handled like a dream. Our 4 link is a slmost stock type. Both upper trailing arms are adjustable for length and so are both lowers. The uppers have about 17 degrees down angle. The lowers are running up to the body a little ways, the only way to go lower with them is to put them in the stock location on the body.

[setup479point2]

I recommend rescaling , but you can just reset the ride hgts. About 1/4" out LF and 3/8" out RF on your adjusters. I wouldn't mess with the panhard just yet , get seat time. One of my cars Saturday won heat and feature , lead every lap of both. It has stock location metric 4 link , it was as fast as the semi-lates. My rear ride height is a bit higher , and have less upper angle. Running late model tires with your engine combo you should not be spinning , my car has much more engine and was totally hooked , tires barely had heat in em'.

[floppyfoot]

Could the detroit locker be the problem? I gues I am wondering if it does not lock both wheels at the same time, that could start the spin that gets worse whe nthe other locks. That rear end makes a lot of noise when off the throttle. It sounds like something breaking up but it is locked when we jack it up. Just to be sure, I got him the take off in 2nd gear on pavement with the wheels stright ahead. He did not floor it but it spun the tires. It really took off but was spinning a lot. He said it fells like something is moving around when he gets off the gas, like the rear end is moving but it is solid in the car. 13" rear springs should be here Thursday.

[setup479point2]

Could be the problem . get the spool in . Gear ....what size and surface (tacky , slick, abrasive , etc. ) is the track? 1/3 mile and under 6.50 should work , longer maybe 6.20 , try the spool with the 6.50 first.

[floppyfoot]

The track is 3/8 mile. The turns at around 8 degrees progressive banking, not much at all on bottom but gets more as you go up the track. It is usually dry slick. Long turns and short straights. Most cars were a little loose this past weekend but we were more than that.Do not have the adapter to hook camera up to computer to post the videos.

[floppyfoot]

Ride heights back at shopLF went from 7 1/4 to 7 3/4.....LR from 7 1/2 to 7 1/2..........RR from 7 1/2 to 7 1/4.....RF from 7 1/4 to 6 1/2

[floppyfoot]

I really should have checked this myself, not take someone else's word. The RR is back 9/16 of an inch from the LR. To me, that is way to much rear steer for this car, no wonder it is loose. I measure from 2 different places on the frame and got the same measurement.

[setup479point2]

That wheelbase is a problem , set it even . Forget about changing springs . Why did ride heights change so much is another big problem , are the weight jacks locked down ? Definitely need to scale again , before you start and when done measure all your weight jacks and adjusters and record them so you can see what moved.

[floppyfoot]

Weight jacks are not locked down. I moved some weight today. It was low on the frame and now I have it over the spring buckets. Took about 25# off, it was 55 over what was needed at the end of the race. Do you think maybe I should put the 850 spring in the LF????

[setup479point2]

No leave the springs . Sounds good on the weight.

[floppyfoot]

The spool will be here on Tuesday. What backlash for the ring and pinion do you reccomend? Before I pulled the locker out, the driveshaft would make around 1/2 turn before the axles would lock and the backlash was about .014, which I think is close for the track. The locker just took to long to lock, I think.

[setup479point2]

I can't help on this , I get mine made up. Anyone else who can help ?

[7uptruckracer]

I run no more the .10 I shoot for .08

[floppyfoot]

The instructions that came with the rear gears for my son's Mustang said to run .008 to .012 on the street and .014 for racing. I was just wondering what to set these at. Changed from a locker to a spool.

[7uptruckracer]

The ring and pinion doesn't really know or care what you have hooked to it open carrier, locker spool, etc. Your just setting the gear mesh. for wear and contact patch some specs might vary by ring and pinion manfacturer slightly and re check mine after a few runs on a new gear. Do whatever they recommend I just do what I was taught it works for me

[floppyfoot]

I dropped the front a little, I really did not like what the lR spring looked like. After dropping the front a little and rescaled the car, here is what I have. LS- 53.3%: R-51.8%: cross-51.1%: bite 148ride heights- LF-6 3/4: LR-7: RF-7 1/2: RR- 8 1/4:no stagger in the rear.

[floppyfoot]

Had 2 pretty good night of racing. My grandson, never drove a race before, drove the car at our local track. He started in the rear and as he got used to thecar and track, started picking up speed, only spun out once. With a few laps to go, and trying to pass another car, they got a little tangled up and the right tie rod broke. No bad for a 1st timer. The car was a little loose.Went to another track tonight about 50 miles away. It has real short tight turns and long straights, 3/8 mile and is not much over 2 cars wide. The track is in horrible shape with bit holes and ruts in it, they even watered the track again just before our race. There was 15 cars the, my son started 13th and finished 5th. Not bad for a place we had never raced before.setup479point2, the private message was right on and it worked. My son is planning on driving next weekend and we will see. Only had to put a little more bite in and close the stagger up just a little, it is coming around.

[4bangerhotrod]

these car's maybe different, but i have never seen a dirt car that had ride heights with the right side higher than the left. i know on our LM's and mod the RF is the lowest corner and LR is highest. if the ride heights were like this the car would never get turned into the corner, it would just want to skate the RF and would lack side bite bad. dirt cars need tilt to get the weight started moving to the right side to get it on the RF so it can create side bite.

[floppyfoot]

The car gets into the corner great, was a little loose off the corner. I think with a slight adjustment, it will be fine. I have always ran the RF higher but it has also been 10 years since we raced.

[setup479point2]

There were a few adjustments we made through PM's , lowered RR and raised LR, added bite . It is really difficult to adjust on a car that you can't get your hands on : )

[4bangerhotrod]

i have not messed with this type of car much and was wondering how the stock type suspension would change the effect the ride heights were backwards to me so i was just making sure. we start out with the cars fairly level but that changes alot through out the night as the track slicks off to keep the car scotched.

[floppyfoot]

It is difficult to adjust something when you cannot actually see it and what is happening. My grandson drove the car after the last adjustments at our local track and he has never raced before. My son drove it the next night at a track where we have never raced bofore. The track is a lot different than our local track. The only change I made there was a little more air in the right front, it was rolling over so far the fender right behind the tire was hitting the track. Then he discovered that he had dialed in almost all rear brake. When he changed that, the car took off and gained 5 places in just a few laps. Will see this week what it is like at our track where my son will drive again. Just having fun.

[floppyfoot]

Back at the home track last night. Car had some push in in the warm up laps but was not really any worse that most others. Started on the pole, this engine is a little weak I think. He ran pretty much side by side into turn 1, got a little loose coming off and lost about 1/2 car length. Ended up second by the time he came to the flag stand. Ran about 4 laps and something went wrong. The engine would pull up to 5,000 RPM,s and the the would sound like a rev limiter would kick in. It would start missing like crazy. I am not so sure the MSD box has not gone crazy. It has a 8,000 chip in it. This engine has turned 7600 with no problems. It did not start this until the race started, was OK in warm up laps.

[Driver50x]

rf is highest on my car if not it smashes into the ground too easily and oftenNever set any car I had up with TILT, I always shoot for level with driver.Do you scale the car with or without the driver?

[floppyfoot]

Always with driver.

[Driver50x]

No driver when I scaleSo do you set the chassis level without the driver, or set the left side a little higher? Because adding the driver is going to lower the left side a little.

[Driver50x]

Very cool. You must be doing something right!

[setup479point2]

I want to thank everybody here for letting me work through this guys setup without harassing him and I . I know we all have stuff that works , and works well. Stockcar congrats on the win . Would be interested in what you do on your cars, am from Pa. so pretty sure we're never gonna come up against one another. PM me if you want.

[7uptruckracer]

Stock chassis ride heights are totally different from Mods and LM because of the roll centers and rear suspension

[floppyfoot]

My grandson just bought a street stock with a great looking 3 link setup under it. It is an older car that a person we know about, built. The car was a winner most of the time. The engine that was in it was blown and there is another good one with the car with a lot of extra parts. That will be a whole new game to me trying to set up a car with a 3 link. We are the only one in the class with a 4 link, a stock type 4 link at that and he will be running against his dad.

[7uptruckracer]

You will link the 3 link. It has some quirks but they are fairly simple. LR bar control LR Steer and Thust (Drive) RR bar controls steer and thrust (Drive) for each tire, once you understand which tire needs more drive for looser or tighter it doesn't change much

[floppyfoot]

Thanks to all who helped me get this old metric 4 link setup and going. Special thanks to setup479point2. His help here and in the private messages has been priceless. His knowledge and expertise have helped greatly. Last night the car ran laps 1/2 second faster than it has ever ran. The driver says not to change anything at all, he loves it. Now on to trying to get my grandson's 3 link that way. Need help there also.