Opinions on older DLM cars...?

[DRTRCR22]

I've been racing mods a long time, but they are starting a new late model class here locally and I am ready to move up. Since budget is real tight making this switch to a starter car, I am looking at an 02 Rayburn that is available for a decent price. Can anyone offer anything good or bad about them (early Rayburn) ...???How about any other brands pre-2007...? why or why not...???Thanks for any input, I appreciate your help...

[7uptruckracer]

If your new to late models or late models period Personally I wouldn't get a Rayburn, swing arms are a pain for experienced people, being new I'd get something where if you have a question you could go to your track hot shoe or crew chief and ask a question. Most guys run rockets and masters here in VA After 2004 is good on Rockets, they are plentiful, Masters Most all the cars are fairly successful their Smackdown chassis which is older is a good overall chassis and tried and true results, especially with some TLC they can still be quick. Barry Wrights are good minus 10-11ish cars, GRT earlier cars are a pain, their newer stuff i can't comment on never run one, Warriors are for the most part decent their newer stuff flies like 09' is excellent, Swartz is always a good car they don't make many bad years, Shaw I don't have any experience with Pierce is pretty decent too for a starter. Rayburn has always been a little off the beaten path the man is a smart smart man and innovated many many things, but that swing arm he just get away from and its a fine fine line. Some guys absolutely love them most never want one.

[SS Motorsports]

03-05 GRT's work well, 03 & up MasterSbilt's work well(no experience with any older MasterS, Not crazy about Rayburn's but it's not my money either. Whatever you end up with, learn what that car likes or wants, maintain it right, that race car doesn't know what year it is.

[DRTRCR22]

Ok, thanks guys... that' a start. I have driven a stock stub leaf rear limited late, but not a strut 4 bar... so this will be all new to me. So 7up, are all the early Rayburns swing-arm cars... they didn't make any 4 bar cars...? I haven't looked at this car yet but I assumed it was a 4 bar...? I was also told by an acquaintance in the know, to steer away from all chassis from about '07 through about '10 because of bad steel tubing runs when all the good steel was going to china for top dollar and we were stuck with crap...? Has anyone else heard that...? My budget will not handle a nearly new car, so I have to stick with about an '07 or earlier... ay more suggestions...?

[7uptruckracer]

Never heard that one about steel as far as roll bar tubing auto parts maybe but racing stuff i doubt it I didn't care for our early GRT it didn't turn in very well. Rayburn has a few 4 links around but it's few and far between id go nothing older then 98 on anything and 98-2003 rockets aren't bad but I'd recommend 04 and up your main concerns are straight good shocks good birdcages not rusted inside rails no visible repairs and if it does know who did it as needs to be jigged repair

[DRTRCR22]

Thanks 7up, no I would not even consider a car older than '00... not hatin, just sayin... The man who told me about the tubing is the owner/promoter of a huge late model sanctioning body out in the Rocky Mountain / Southwest NM / Arizona area (I won't say who, you probably know who I am talking about... I don't want to start something) who has direct connections with dozens of builders, owners and drivers. He is the one we sought out to help us get this new late model venue in southeast NM going, after we heard great reviews of his knowledge and skills. He is also the one who sent me here to your site... :O) He likes Mastersbilt too, but the pickins are pretty slim out here in the desert southwest for any cars, let alone older LM cars. Most of the LM cars that are currently running at nearby tracks El Paso Speedway (TX) and Southern New Mexico Speedway (Las Cruces NM) had to be located and brought back here from the Midwest where you avid late model guys are big time. This has just been building up around these parts the past couple years or so. So, we might have to travel hundreds of miles to get an affordable car, and can't just jump in the truck to go window shopping for several at a time...? This Rayburn is currently racing nearby, but I haven't crawled under it to check it out closely. the owner is an acquaintance and has all the setup notes since he's had the car, and will help me with future problems, along with other LM guys who have worked on the car in his network. So, even if it is a swing-arm car, I might still get it as a starter car, then move up to a new car in a couple years of seat time...? Thanks for the good advice so far... any other recommendations still appreciated too... thanks.

[tsmock]

The best cars I owned of that era were an 05 and 09 Mastersbilt smack car. It should also be fairly easy to find one in the midwest, you'll just want to get a few extra pictures to make sure it's worth the drive. With a few updates those cars can still be very competitive.

[DRTRCR22]

Thanks tsmock and S&S... I will keep shopping... with end of season most places there should be some sell-outs popping up soon...?

[toyracer]

Have heard the samething about the steel. Heard the 08 Masters was not that good and was a steel issue. Seem to see alot of them for sale.

[jedclampit]

What's your realistic total budget?
You'll get more for your time and money buying a complete car.
Putting one together piece by piece usually ends up costing a LOT more in the long run.
You really need someone experienced with the car make your buying ..to make sure good, useable, correct components are on it.
There are a lot of mismatched, damaged parts, poorly repaired cars out on the market. It's common to see cars hacked together with a few years worth of damaged/incorrect/obsolete/worn out parts put together to make a roller to fund someone next season.

Good stuff ain't usually cheap, but expensive cars aren't necessarily good cars.It's nice to find someone who is getting out and selling everything, 1/2 of what price new was, is the max I'd pay for used anything... except money!

Get some experienced help looking!!

Call up Rocket and see what they got, or are expecting in if your interested in one of them,they sell a lot of new cars in the off season.

BTW unless your racing primarily ruff, non slick tracks I'd look for a 4 bar car.
Good luck, don't exceed your max budget or borrow to do this with the current economy!
Have had some good friends destroy there finances/lives, because of their addiction..to racing.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Ok, thanks guys... that' a start. I have driven a stock stub leaf rear limited late, but not a strut 4 bar... so this will be all new to me. So 7up, are all the early Rayburns swing-arm cars... they didn't make any 4 bar cars...? I haven't looked at this car yet but I assumed it was a 4 bar...? I was also told by an acquaintance in the know, to steer away from all chassis from about '07 through about '10 because of bad steel tubing runs when all the good steel was going to china for top dollar and we were stuck with crap...? Has anyone else heard that...? My budget will not handle a nearly new car, so I have to stick with about an '07 or earlier... ay more suggestions...?

I have heard about tubing, outside the allowable tolerances, cropping up with more regularity during that time because of high cost.

[DRTRCR22]

Thanks Jed, I appreciate your advice. Actually I guess I should mention that I have been fabricating, assembling, racing, crashing and rebuilding race cars for most of my 58 years. The only class I have not first hand experience in is Super Late Model, however I have owned and raced IMCA 4 bar mods for several years, and own and raced a Limited Late for a short while. I was crew team mechanic on traveling a GRT A-Mod team for a couple years recently, and find that research and working on my own Shaw A-Mod lead me to the understanding that the parts and technology on a late model is very similar to that on a modified. The only reason I haven't owned and raced a late model yet is because it has not been offered around here until now. I have been visiting with late model friends and acquaintances in the know at the two tracks I listed above, and have been gaining a LOT of valuable information such as you suggest. I also have been doing a lot of window shopping, asking questions and research, and seeking the information you recommend, on forums like this one... the biggest and best source I have located yet. I really appreciate everyone's advice and will pool it together to help me make an educated decision. I totally agree with everything you are saying, and will take your advice to heart. I have been finding a lot of good cars, both listed on racing classifieds, and through word of mouth, and you are right... most are basket cases thrown together from left over junk parts nobody wants. I am familiar with this because I have been scammed in the past, and pissed off enough to be very careful from now on. To answer you question, my realistic budget right now is under $6k, with $4000 to 4500 my target goal. I do find many available for that ballpark price... the biggest question is what would I REALLY get...? how bent up is it, how wore out is it, how screwed am I going to get...??? Yes, I will be a rookie in 'this' class, and I do want to start out with a very affordable learning car, but I do not want a piece of junk that I cannot be somewhat competitive with... that's why I am asking you experienced guys your opinion on what you would be looking for if you were in my shoes...? :O) Yes, I am looking only for complete roller cars that just pulled off the track, minus engine trans and seat... somebody who just finished their season and is clearing out a spot on their shop floor to pull in their new updated ride for next season. I already have two awesome engines and tranny setups (and seat) ready to drop in.The reason I am leaning towards this 02 Rayburn is because it IS a four bar car, not a swing arm car, and meets all the criteria mentioned. I know the guy, it just came off the track last weekend, and he wants to move up to a brand new Victory Circle. He is offering me a full roller, all his setup sheets with advice and help, and many extra good backup parts he collected for this car... for less than $4k... but, if a better package deal comes along, even for more money, I will consider all angles...? So, with that being said, I am in no big hurry yet, as I have a couple months to keep seeking good advice and looking around for a proper fit for me with what I have to work with... Thanks to everyone for your help...

[7uptruckracer]

That isn't a bad budget for a full roller I know of a 2004 Rocket that's in great condition for that price so they are out there but your going to run into is shocks with the car shocks are the ticket these days, but good luck in your search!

[pink floyd]

I've been racing mods a long time, but they are starting a new late model class here locally and I am ready to move up. Since budget is real tight making this switch to a starter car, I am looking at an 02 Rayburn that is available for a decent price. Can anyone offer anything good or bad about them (early Rayburn) ...???How about any other brands pre-2007...? why or why not...???Thanks for any input, I appreciate your help...

buy an older swartz, toughest and safest chassis made at that time.

[TALON75]

DRTRCR22 , older GRT's seem to work well around that area, at least for Whitwell and Phillips when he ran them, and there are quite a few on RJ in your budget . Also if your buddy wants a very nice nearly new VC have him check out the one in the link below, I know the owners and they are meticulous, it is very nice with only about four races on it, they just kinda lost intrest in it .

http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?308230-2013-Victory-Circle-Roller-or-Chassis-Body-Interior

[DRTRCR22]

Ok, Talon I will let him know... but why is he wanting to trade for same year Rocket or Mastersbilt...? Thanks Pink, I will search for Swartz cars too. The trouble is, almost all the good deals are over 1000 miles away... ouch!

[hpmaster]

There are a lot of good brands of cars and all have been named here plus a bunch not named. As important if not more so is number of nights and number of and types of bumps. Locally I know where you can buy a 2012 Masters for $1000.00 only three or so nights on it. The last night it went end over end about 5 times and the halo is all cracked, plus a few new subtle curves here and there just waiting for a new owner or a good welder to cover up it's past with nice weld and grind job plus a heavy new powder coat. While that is an extreme example I would rather look for a chassis that has a more known history than a big name.

[zeroracing]

Ok, Talon I will let him know... but why is he wanting to trade for same year Rocket or Mastersbilt...? Thanks Pink, I will search for Swartz cars too. The trouble is, almost all the good deals are over 1000 miles away... ouch!

I drove 14 hours each way for my Swartz, worth every mile and skipping thanksgiving dinner to go get it.

[pink floyd]

I drove 14 hours each way for my Swartz, worth every mile and skipping thanksgiving dinner to go get it.

exactly, why more people are not in Swartz cars will always be a mystery to me.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

exactly, why more people are not in Swartz cars will always be a mystery to me.

Only so many used ones cause new ones are not cheap.

[DRTRCR22]

Hmmm... good points to ponder...??? Thanks guys... I appreciate every reply...

[Dragoon55]

I've been racing mods a long time, but they are starting a new late model class here locally and I am ready to move up. Since budget is real tight making this switch to a starter car, I am looking at an 02 Rayburn that is available for a decent price. Can anyone offer anything good or bad about them (early Rayburn) ...???How about any other brands pre-2007...? why or why not...???Thanks for any input, I appreciate your help... I personally like the Rayburns from 01' forward, especially 03' & 04'(104). They get knocked on a lot by the 4 bar devotees, but I think its they don't understand them and just regurgitate tired second hand info they once heard. Swing arms are basic and simple, not unlike the leaf car you mentioned, 4 links of any make are complex and require considerable time and experience with them to get and stay fast. JMO

[1Blacksheep]

I find swingarms to be very forgiving and easy to set up . I am not sure if they can run with a well setup seasoned 4 bar driver tho. I have no experience with Lates , nor do I want any. But I will be playing with Swingarm again in Mods eventually as I think they can still be competitive . I do not think they are as crisp and quick to respond as 4 bar . However Sweeny kicked it in a Swingarm Nullinski Mod years ago that still has me interested in their ability. I HATE 4-BAR so far !

[zeroracing]

One a dry slick track it is very difficult for a swing arm to keep with a good 4 bar car. Not saying it cannot be done, but it is not done often.

If your starting out get the 4 bar car and learn to drive it right from the start, learn it, most that don't like a 4 bar either have not driven a good one or have had limited experience. I find the same guys at least that I know hate slick tracks also.

Rayburn is pushing 4 bar on new cars, so even the last of the 4 bar hold outs is coming around. Swing arms may come back but for now more speed on slick can be found easier with the 4 bar.

[Dragoon55]

One a dry slick track it is very difficult for a swing arm to keep with a good 4 bar car. Not saying it cannot be done, but it is not done often. If your starting out get the 4 bar car and learn to drive it right from the start, learn it, most that don't like a 4 bar either have not driven a good one or have had limited experience. I find the same guys at least that I know hate slick tracks also. Rayburn is pushing 4 bar on new cars, so even the last of the 4 bar hold outs is coming around. Swing arms may come back but for now more speed on slick can be found easier with the 4 bar. Rayburn is in the business of selling cars so he has to sell what people will buy, its that simple. The trend is 4 link and they do work as long as you have an expensive shock package to control all that motion. I've worked on everything from Reverse cantilever to mono-leaf to 4 link to swing arm and of those I liked the swing arm best. I will concede when its dry slick they struggle for side bite, but I think that's fixable. I myself am in the process of building a strictly z-link car that I think will strike a balance between 4-link and swing arm. My biggest issue with 4-link is the j-bar and the tendency they have of flipping over with current setups, that's my issue, I don't like them from a safety standpoint...

[hpmaster]

With the slow economy I would call some of the smaller builders and talk with them and see what they can do on a new chassis. I know of a couple guys getting super deals in new chassis right now, it's a buyers market.

[popkorn42]

I`VE got the perfect car for you to learn in...It`s a 03 swartz. I can sell it you any way you want . With more spare parts then a rookie needs caal me at 815-291-6016 before 230pm central or ant time on the weekends

[racerguy7m]

I have friend that has a couple of Mastersbilts in the year range you are looking for, give him a call 320-219-3542 nice cars at good price!!

[DRTRCR22]

Well, I took your advice guys and drove 15+ hours to Iowa to buy an older 2000 Swartz car. It was not as new or as nice as he said, but it was ok for the price I got it for...? Then, before I could even get home with it I had race buddies who know about Swartz cars hounding me to buy it from me. When I got home they were standing at my door with cash in hand plus all my travel costs money, so to help bolster our new venture I sold it to them, and turned around and bought an '09 MastersBilt by Mars turn key sellout from Denver CO. I will keep collecting leads to help other local guys get into DLMs for our venture, and have been passing on all you guy's advice to others here looking. Again I thank each and every one of you for all your advice and recommendations... Jim

[mab475]

You should have got another Swartz

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Well, I took your advice guys and drove 15+ hours to Iowa to buy an older 2000 Swartz car. It was not as new or as nice as he said, but it was ok for the price I got it for...? Then, before I could even get home with it I had race buddies who know about Swartz cars hounding me to buy it from me. When I got home they were standing at my door with cash in hand plus all my travel costs money, so to help bolster our new venture I sold it to them, and turned around and bought an '09 MastersBilt by Mars turn key sellout from Denver CO. I will keep collecting leads to help other local guys get into DLMs for our venture, and have been passing on all you guy's advice to others here looking. Again I thank each and every one of you for all your advice and recommendations... Jim

Those Swartz cars were some wheelie pulling SOBs! I think a guy could really do something with one and the new information that is out there.

[mab475]

Those Swartz cars were some wheelie pulling SOBs! I think a guy could really do something with one and the new information that is out there.

Yes they were.. They were a very throttle tight car and I agree with the latest technology and shock packages I think somebody could make one hell of a car

[DRog1423]

I bought a 1998 Rocket two years ago, car was an ex Rocket house car driven by Tim Hitt. The car was straight and hadn't been raced for a few years so I'm sure that helped the life of it. It had never been updated so I welded in the safety bars on the cage and put the shortened right front shock mount on it. I've stayed relatively competitive with it winning 3 features with it so far. It makes more traction than any other car I've drove. So moral of the story, Newer isn't always better.