Rebound on left front shock

[lindsey97]

Has anyone or does anyone run higher rebound on their left front. I 've heard of people chaining the left front and such. Just watching some of the WOO and LOLMDS and seems their left front will gently come off the ground but the tire never looks to change its postion as related to the fender well.

[grt74]

some are going that way on some of the tracks,but this takes the whole setup not just one shock

[Ltemodel]

There are two ways of looking at the left front corner of the car. First ... If you keep that tire on the ground it will help you turn. Large amounts of tire droop will still allow body roll and spring compression on the right side, while still allowing a little assistance in turning. This should add a little more side bite.

The flip side is to tie down the left front. This will take out a little side bite through body roll, but you get the aero advantage of keeping the nose glued and help the car turn. There will also be an aero advantage to add down force to the entire car if you glue the nose down.

There is also something else added to the equation when you pull the left front off the ground. There will be more weight distributed on the other three corners. Think about a three legged table as opposed to four. If the left front is touching the ground it is bearing at least some weight. Once that wheel comes off the ground, there is more possible weight to be distributed between the rear tires or the right front. It really depends on how tight you want the car and how you want the car to balance out.

Besides all of that, driving style plays a huge roll in whether you like tieing the nose down or not. Some like it; some don't. There is no magic in it either way.

Good Luck

[lindsey97]

The flip side is to tie down the left front. This will take out a little side bite through body roll, but you get the aero advantage of keeping the nose glued and help the car turn. There will also be an aero advantage to add down force to the entire car if you glue the nose down.

There is also something else added to the equation when you pull the left front off the ground. There will be more weight distributed on the other three corners. Think about a three legged table as opposed to four. If the left front is touching the ground it is bearing at least some weight. Once that wheel comes off the ground, there is more possible weight to be distributed between the rear tires or the right front. It really depends on how tight you want the car and how you want the car to balance out.


Ltemodel,

This is where my thoughts were, it would definately be another thing to add to the balancing act. I'm thinking it would help you turn in through the middle with a little more throttle and help keep from loading the RR so fast and then help drive coming off. I think its something i want to experiment with.

[7uptruckracer]

Weight does not transfer diagonally it is against the Laws Of Physics. So the LF to RR theory doesn't exist. What you are doing it effecting your LR to LF transfers and your LF to RF transfers. Its not like you magically free up all this new weight to distribute as soon as the LF tire comes off the ground. More LF rebound will hold more weight from transferring off the LF to the RF and help the LF tire turn the front end more because its holding more weight on that corner. It should free your entry what this can ALLOW you to do it run less roll steer or RRL bar angle however you want to do it which can help you get off the corner better without having to use excessive hike and roll steer to negotiate the corner which will allow you to drive the car straighter. Yes alot of this is in the wording but you can't think of weight transfers in terms of diagonals. Weight on decel goes rear to front and when you turn into the corner inside to outside your LR is the bigger looser on entry decel followed by the LF. the RF is the big gainer followed by the RR.

[fastford]

7 up, the laws of physics tell me that if you tie the left front down, there will be less instant transfer to the right rear, if you free the left front and reduce rebound, there will be more weight transferred to right rear, so i think the left front to right rear theory does exist. not trying to be a smart azz but this is how I see it.

[mab475]

Diagonal weight transfer does exist. The car experiences diagonal,front to rear and side to side.

[7uptruckracer]

If that is the case why don't you use the LF spring and shock changes for exit tuning for the RR? You have two weight transfers in racing rear to front inside to out. It simply doesn't happen wrap it up in whatever package you want but you will be alot more successful if you get away from it.

[7uptruckracer]

It can go LR to LF to RF but you won't have it go LR to LF. Its a simultaneous action but I'm just clearing the wording up you need to actually know what your wheels and forces are doing on accel and decel. Go to the classes they will tell you the same and show you the theories behind it, I don't know how else to explain it. FastFord you run heavy rebound soft compression in the mud and the opposite in the slick and you don't wanna load the RR in the slick because the car will be loose. The LF Accepts weight from the LR and also gives weight to the RF the rebound holds the weight on a corner longer and the compression slows the weight transfer to that corner. Longitudinal and Lateral Forces. THINK about all the topics you see alot on here everyone talks now about the LF being down and into the track they aren't hiking cars they aren't running a ton of rear steer. Bloomer this Bloomer that. If you can get the weight on the LF to turn it and keep it on the ground you don't need the rear steer to turn the car anymore because the front end is working efficiently. Hike in a car is a result of thrust we can use the thrust to propel the car forward or propel the car upwards creating hike. That's why you see guys say don't go over 45* of dynamic bar angle because your wasting thrust and just pushing the car up and not forward. If you can use less upward thrust and rear steer and still hook it up you will be going forward faster long winded yes but please thing about all of it and what you see the current trends going towards and why

[hpmaster]

Weight transfer is not diagonal it is rotational. Now that I have poured gas on this I will go back to my corner. look at what happens when you change spring rates on a given corner

[Ltemodel]

It is correct weight doesn't transfer diagonally. It does transfer in three axis' though; X,Y, and Z. Most chassis classes teach the front to rear and side to side because it is easy to understand and visualize what is going on. The truth is that every flick of the wheel, every touch of the brake, and every bump of the cushion will transfer weight. Everything happens so often and changes direction so quick it will appear to move diagonally.

I don't believe rear steer actually turns the car. What will help turn the car is how the tires are aligned and how the tires are loaded. If you have the same rear steer with two different length panhard bars, at the same angle, the car will be tighter with the shorter one. This is because the RR will be tucked inside the right front more when the car is in yaw. Everything needs to work in harmony to actually help turn the car. Rear steer will not do it by itself. The big picture in roll steer is how the tires are aligned.

We have experimented with tying the left front down in various different ways and it will take a little side bite out, but there is an advantage to the aero downforce.

[PenskeShocks]

There is so much going on with these cars. I know for sure, from a shock stand point in other forms of racing, making adjustments in one corner will effect the opposite corner. RR=LF. There are a lot of explanations why, but we have seen it from a data stand point and driver feel. As for LF rebound tie down, track dependent and driver for sure. on a very smooth, high speed track, it can be an aero advantage, but if the car is that aero dependent and you don't start up front or get a lot of lap traffic, it is not always the best set-up. Tethering, chaining, or internally drooping the LF shock is something completely different than adding rebound. Each change will do something totally different.

[hpmaster]

rotational weight transfer. here is a good link http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/rotation.htm
If you take the time to understand rotational weight transfer it helps you understand what a car does as it drives in a left circle, straightens out then turns left again. rotational kinematics. Not tryin to argue just tryin to help.

[7uptruckracer]

It might have a net end result on an opposing corner but it's not from a diagonal force. I would make sure you are very clear there for integrity sake...but then again I use JRI

[PenskeShocks]

I agree with the theories for sure, doesn't always translate to the race track. I always tell everyone, try it, see if your driver feels the difference.

[7uptruckracer]

It's a package deal any change especially on these is a compromise. You can't dump a ton of rebound into a car and that's it. Just like you can't take shocks off a shelf and just throw them on a car anymore.

[Matt49]

Old article but still one of the best pieces of literature on dirt car weight transfer. Written by some guy named Bloomquist...
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/weight_management_parts_placement_tech/

[grt74]

It's a package deal any change especially on these is a compromise. You can't dump a ton of rebound into a car and that's it. Just like you can't take shocks off a shelf and just throw them on a car anymore.

yes you can win with off the shelf shocks if you know the valvings you need,bilstiens are one of the best shocks out there,with off the shelf steel body shocks and 1 of my old cars a 17-18 yr old won the track championship,yes it can be done,and no you don't need 3-5 thousand dollars worth of shocks,the most overated parts on a late model today PERIOD
learn how they work and what you need
most of the time people concentrate to much on there shocks when they should be working on there set up,shocks are a fine tuning tool,if your that far off its not the shocks
and I think there 130 bucks a piece

[mab475]

7up you stick with your theories and I'll stick with mine. I've won a lot of races with it. Btw you can effect exit with the LF.

[7uptruckracer]

Agree to disagree I guess but to answer his question yes some do tie it down, some add more droop, some chain (not seen much) some run super soft on the LF spring as well. Just depends on the car and geometry and goals.

[fastford]

I don't care how you look at it or how it gets there, if you decrease left front rebound and reduce the load of un sprung weight on left front ( let the left front tire drop) on acceleration weight is gone transfer to right rear. im not saying the left rear is not gone get some to, but the majority is going diagonally, left front to right rear

[Matt49]

I don't care how you look at it or how it gets there, if you decrease left front rebound and reduce the load of un sprung weight on left front ( let the left front tire drop) on acceleration weight is gone transfer to right rear. im not saying the left rear is not gone get some to, but the majority is going diagonally, left front to right rear

In general, I agree. This same concept is why a heavier RR spring and more RR top rod angle helps keep the LF down.

[lindsey97]

Well i have enjoyed reading this discussion, it has helped me think a little deeper on how the weight moves around while driving through the corner. I seem to always be a little too tight going in through the middle, causing me to have to break the car loose to get to turn. I have made some progress toward the end of the 2013 on helping with the issue. I think its something i want to explore to fine tune with and also had thoughts of the soft LF spring too. I had my shocks revalved about 3 races to go last fall and that was one thing i had wrong was the LF, they almost reversed what i had, that along with the other corners made a big difference in the car. So that got me to thinking how that affected the car, I think i can agree with most everones opinion, I believe its just a matter of how everyone explains it that makes it look different. I have moved some weight to increase my left side also over the winter. I'm eager to get this cold weather behind and get to some practice sessions to look at these options. I think this is one of the most imfomative post i have ever read, and please continue I'm sure i am not the only one learning from this.

[7uptruckracer]

Yeah the more momentum and less time you spend coasting the car the better you will come off and the less dialed in drive you will require. I saw a chassis builder a pretty reputable one in my area VA, NC, PA, TN, Running a 400 LF I'm not sure I'll b trying it in 2014 hes also on a Tie Down RF It seems to be working quite well on our heavier tracks we get, but it was surprising to see that on there.

[hpmaster]

Just because force, weight, ends up on the RR does not mean it moved diagonaly from the LF. As you enter a corner braking or scrub as you slow down AND turn reduces speed. Weight from the LR corner, the heaviest corner on most race cars first travels forward to the LF wheel. As the car rotates left into the turn the weight then moves out to the RF wheel. As you pick up the throttle the weight on the RF starts back to the RR, usualy while still turning left as you straighten out the car the weight that has rotated to the RR now moves back to the LR, giving you the weight transfer for drive off, then as you enter the next corner it all starts over again. Springs stop or take a certain amount of that rotating weight and apply it to the tire patch as this weight rotates around the car. Once the car has the right rate of springs to apply weight during this dynamic transfer the shocks act as timing devices to apply, compression, and release, rebound, this weight. There I am done do what you think is right.

[lindsey97]

7up,

That is one thing i want to do, a 400 lb spring. I run non-adjustable shocks but i have 2 for the right front with different rebounds and different than my LF. I have about 6 different combinations with springs and rebound I want to try.

Thanks again,

[lindsey97]

hpmaster,

I guess I was posting at the same time as you but that is how i see the weight transfering around the car. I run a paperclip track mostly and seems from the info everyone has shared I can gain some from playing with the ideas.

Thanks,

[7uptruckracer]

Lemme know how the 400 works on your LF and what chassis its on sounds interesting, I'm not sure I'll try it yet, one of the cars is on a 450 but its on a semu-banked track so it might be acting much like the 400 would.

[fastford]

[QUOTE=hpmaster;1760983]Just because force, weight, ends up on the RR does not mean it moved diagonaly from the LF.

I don't understand your thinking here, whether its forced or not, if the tire contact patch of the right rear is loaded more from a light rebound left front shock and the tire drooping, then that seems to me to be diagonal transfer to some point to the right rear

[hpmaster]

so when you are on a teeter totter weight isn't applied to the fulcrum base before it is transfered to the other end?

[fastford]

I don't know much about a teeter totter, guess im to old, but getting back to the original post concerning tying the left front, I still say it effects weight transfer to the right rear

[fastford]

I guess you could say your wedge is your fulcrum and your teeter tottering left front to right rear

[hpmaster]

To a point yes. The wedge is what you end up rotating around the car. Now static load is different than dynamic, if i throw a 168 grain bullet at you it might sting you more than if I drop it in your hand but if I fire it out of a rifle it hits you with over a ton of weight. First a teeter toter is another rotational movement of weight. This combined with the car turning left affects the movement of weight in a circular direction. This change in loading at the fulcrum as the car lifts, rotates and trys to send energy in a straight line is only stopped by the loading on the tire patches as we try to drive forward and turn the car. This is causing me to use classes I took 40 years ago.

[fastford]

ok, you might be older than me lol, I was trying to answer the original posters question about chaining the left front, I do understand dynamic load aspects , someone stated that weight cannot transfer diagonally, I was only trying to explain that you can manipulate weight transfer from left front to right rear by adjusting shocks and using chains on left front . it hasn't been quiet 40 years for me, but I may have to go dig up a few of them ole stone tablets we used....LOL.

[7uptruckracer]

This is a car that runs at a local track it's a floating X car that's running a tied down LF on a track that's notoriously slick this is as it's passing under the flag stand on the last lap. You can maybe see why there can be an aero advantage also not running crazy hike or rear steer....he won that week but that floating x car can be very moody it seemed

[fastford]

that track looks very tacky, I would think that would be where the tie down would work best

[7uptruckracer]

It's just the camera exposure, and we have very red clay its black! I saw pictures of a track in New York that stuff almost looked white.

[grt74]

heres my opinion or whats going on from a physics standpoint,does weight move diagonally??? the answer is no,now I can understand why some people would think so but its impossible,i could break it down but it would be 9 pages long to explain about a late model going 100mph and then slowing to 60mph,
it takes two movements to get the weight to the rr,the car has to fall to the rear and with the side load to the right,now in a late model this happens at a very high rate of movement,but again I can see how some would think it moves diagonally,but in a physics world its two or more movements
this is without getting in great detail,just trying to help some understand whats going on
I could explain it but you have corner entry,mid corner,exit, straightaway,but then would have to wright a 20 page article,
mark bush and some others have classes on this,
just trying to explain from a phyics standpoint and not trying to ruffle any feathers

[keeks]

What is a floating x car? I've heard this before but I've never understood.

[7uptruckracer]

It's an X brace in the chassis that's clamped and not welded solid it's supposed to allow the car the flex for it's less sensitive to changes but the problem there is it takes a huge change for a small effect. The hope is that a well built car will run in any conditions, so we can tune ourselves out the problem is they end up fatiguing and go dead over time IMO some still get them built as an add on option but most people welded them up

[mab475]

I was a crew chief on a 09 Swartz with a floating X. One of the best cars I ever worked on.

[7uptruckracer]

I forget if his is a GRT or Swartz the Swartz is very popular at Winchester, Pettyjohn is crushing them up there in one.

[hipower17]

what size track would u tie the front down?

[3wheelinphotos]

An this post is exactly why people in industry sit an laugh at this site..... PENSKE SHOCKS get on here states what they have found in test an what you all do..... Pretty much say nah this is the way it is! WoW carry on guys!

[7uptruckracer]

They didn't state anything about the physics we are talking about, their competition director just stated what they found that helped some only some of their clients.... They had to start out somewhere too. Debate back and forth and working through problems and wording is how things get done and people learn and pick and choose what they want to apply. If you're in the industry please for our benefit state who you're with so we don't have to support someone so condescending. You can't state "facts" that fly in the face of the Laws of Physics. If your going to try to talk condescending we might take you more seriously if you at least use correct grammar and spelling.

[fastford]

heres my opinion or whats going on from a physics standpoint,does weight move diagonally??? the answer is no,now I can understand why some people would think so but its impossible,i could break it down but it would be 9 pages long to explain about a late model going 100mph and then slowing to 60mph,
it takes two movements to get the weight to the rr,the car has to fall to the rear and with the side load to the right,now in a late model this happens at a very high rate of movement,but again I can see how some would think it moves diagonally,but in a physics world its two or more movements
this is without getting in great detail,just trying to help some understand whats going on
I could explain it but you have corner entry,mid corner,exit, straightaway,but then would have to wright a 20 page article,
mark bush and some others have classes on this,
just trying to explain from a phyics standpoint and not trying to ruffle any feathers

were not talking about weight being physically moved, that would be a static placement, but in the dynamic world of a late model, going around a race track, I would bet the bank , if you put weight sensors on the car, similar to what indy cars do, you would see a weight transfer difference on the right rear with the left front tied as opposed to not tied and light rebound, with that being said , ill stand by my theory that weight will move diagonally , not physically, but dynamically from left front to right rear

[7uptruckracer]

You might very well see a NET change that shows on a diagonal migration in dynamic weight. You gain more LF to RR but the two physical forces that acted on the car that did it aren't a diagonal force, that's all me and the others are saying, its just two forces that act at the same time to give you that reading. Look it up is all i can say, all you will ever see referenced is Lateral and Longitudinal you're only doing two actions Steering and Braking/Accel. You might have a theory but Physics are laws. If you're saying you will see a digital migration/rake on paper or in a computer with data acquisition if you compare your opposing corners absolutely correct the force that got them there though not possible. Regardless interesting conversation and I'm sure we all run up front where ever we race being we can have this back and forth too early banter.

[fastford]

dang 7up you must live on here, you guys are getting to technical for my old hjllbjlly azz, but please refer me to the physics book that will explain to me how diagonal dynamic weight load does not exist, which is basically what the original poster was wanting to know in asking for the effects of tying the lft front, any way ive enjoyed this discussion more than any on here in a while but were finally thawing out so its back to the grind, yall have a good day

[7uptruckracer]

I'm avoiding working at work its to cold and the coffee is all gone.

[fastford]

hey 7up, check you pm

[mab475]

From the photo you posted it looks to be a Swartz

[7uptruckracer]

I asked it is. It probably says it on the car I didn't look and I don't get up to that track to much to be to familiar with what he's running but it's attitude is what turned me on to the idea of that there might be something to seal the nose flat and keeping the LF tied to help corner entry to middle and get away from excessive hike and steer. It's a 2011 Swart their new car is exploding all over down here.

[4bangerhotrod]

I think the way the weight transfers depends a lot on the position on the car an the attitude of the car while it's transferring

[Matt49]

Good point 4banger. When weight transfers "laterally" due to steering input while on the gas when the car is already yawed, that's where I feel the most transfer from LF to RR. At that point, the car is not traveling in the same direction it is pointing to LF, RF, LR, RR are not "normal" like a squared car going down the track. I'm probably doing a bad job of explaining but maybe you guys will understand what I'm talking about.
When talking about what the car is doing on the track these days, my dad and I talk a lot less about loose and tight, and a lot more about roll, pitch, and yaw.
The cars are just so much more dynamic than they used to be.

[7uptruckracer]

I wish my dad talked to me about those things all I get is you have this much money in these racecars back in my day we towed to car to the track took the motor out the truck put it in the car and hope you didn't blow it so you could drive yourself home later lol....

[4bangerhotrod]

We have to remember when your talking about theory these cars are never really going in a straight line, most tracks the car will never be straight the car is always turning. So you have to be able to visualize in your mind where the weight is going to go how much is going to each place an what it's going to do when it gets there. it's little stuff like this that makes a big difference an separates top teams from for the rest.

[adamsraceshocks]

http://www.teamgrt.com/TUNING_THE_CAR_WITH_SPRINGS.pdf
According to "experts" I have herd explain this the lf to rr you are feeling is a combination effect, so in a way you both are right... in order to get from the lf to the rr it has to also come from either the rf or the lr. The heavy spring takes the load. From what I have seen shocks used to first control the spring, second to control timing of transfer and third to control attitudes and angles. Everything is a compromise the more you use a shock to control angles and attitudes of the car the less you can use it to control the spring. That being said shocks are the easiest place to "have your cake and eat it too" when it comes to adjusting due to the fact you can have the same shock do differnt things depending on if it is going in or out, and can also change based on the speed it moves in or out.

[grt74]

were not talking about weight being physically moved, that would be a static placement, but in the dynamic world of a late model, going around a race track, I would bet the bank , if you put weight sensors on the car, similar to what indy cars do, you would see a weight transfer difference on the right rear with the left front tied as opposed to not tied and light rebound, with that being said , ill stand by my theory that weight will move diagonally , not physically, but dynamically from left front to right rear

ok just to give an example,you entered the corner and just got to the middle and started to pick up the throttle what happens???
from the middle of the corner with the rf loaded you hit the throttle where did the weight go and where did it come from???
now for the most part the right is loaded already(weight from the left has moved to the right from corner entry to the middle)
next you hit the throttle hard,what happens???the weight from the front moves to the rear(and by that I mean both rear tires get weight but the rr does get a higher %)
and some times the weight moves so fast that it picks the lf up and carries it
theres just a small example of whats going on,and this is in a dynamic world
set up,set up,set up is all I can say
who would have thought all that homework would be needed one day???

[7uptruckracer]

If geometry, trig and calc in high school and college used racecar word problems I would have paid more attention.

[grt74]

remember you have lr drop,bars angles and about 100 other things that have effects also

[Matt49]

Because shocks can be used now to really control attitude more so than in the past, I really believe that the days of using shocks only to "fine tune" are far behind us. We all know somebody (or might BE somebody) that uses pretty much ONLY shocks and tire pressures to tweak their car through the night even with VERY different track conditions from hot laps to feature.
I also think that the old adage of "heavy spring gets the weight" and then only thinking about how the wedging or dewedging associated with that is going to affect handling are far behind us.
Two examples:
1) The old way of thinking told us that a heavier RF spring should help the car turn on entry due to dynamic wedge freeing the car on entry. A new way of thinking could tell us that a softer RF spring will help the car turn on entry due to increased rear steer because of the LR action that comes with pinning the RF. So just the opposite result.
2) The old way of thinking told us that a heavier LR spring should help tighten the car on exit due to dynamic edge. A new way of thinking tells us that the softer LR spring helps with LR hike-up and generates more LR thrust angle to tighten the car on exit. Again, just the opposite result.

Shocks are controlling all of this which just makes it all that much more complicated.

Whoever thought 15 years that adjusting rebound on the RR shock would change how the car handles on the gas. But today, we know that it makes a big difference.

My point is that shocks are no longer just fine tuning tools on these cars. Once you have a decent balance, you can do just about anything with shocks including tune yourself right out of a good setup.

[let-r-eat]

Weight transfer and understanding it is very simple. Put a cup of coffee on your truck dash and see which direction it spills when you hit the gas, brake, or go around a turn.Take a block of wood and attach a spring about 6" long with a 500 gram weight to the other end and drive around with it on your dash. See which direction the weight goes? Stiffen the spring and see how it reduces the amount of travel? How long it takes the weight to return and center?control your deceleration with the throttle into the corner and watch the weight? Use brakes and watch the weight.

[mab475]

That truck has a balanced front and rear suspension with shocks that compress and rebound at the same rate.

[7uptruckracer]

It's no different the two actions you do will effect it the same way all the car knows is 4 tires and the ground look at the gyro camera they put in the cup cars.

[fastford]

Because shocks can be used now to really control attitude more so than in the past, I really believe that the days of using shocks only to "fine tune" are far behind us. We all know somebody (or might BE somebody) that uses pretty much ONLY shocks and tire pressures to tweak their car through the night even with VERY different track conditions from hot laps to feature.
I also think that the old adage of "heavy spring gets the weight" and then only thinking about how the wedging or dewedging associated with that is going to affect handling are far behind us.
Two examples:
1) The old way of thinking told us that a heavier RF spring should help the car turn on entry due to dynamic wedge freeing the car on entry. A new way of thinking could tell us that a softer RF spring will help the car turn on entry due to increased rear steer because of the LR action that comes with pinning the RF. So just the opposite result.
2) The old way of thinking told us that a heavier LR spring should help tighten the car on exit due to dynamic edge. A new way of thinking tells us that the softer LR spring helps with LR hike-up and generates more LR thrust angle to tighten the car on exit. Again, just the opposite result.

Shocks are controlling all of this which just makes it all that much more complicated.

Whoever thought 15 years that adjusting rebound on the RR shock would change how the car handles on the gas. But today, we know that it makes a big difference.

My point is that shocks are no longer just fine tuning tools on these cars. Once you have a decent balance, you can do just about anything with shocks including tune yourself right out of a good setup.

good post matt , ive never tied the left front but ive got a shock that will almost tie it down, but like you said, with the new way of thinking and bump stops and such, I never use it.

[Lt.Stryker]

The theoretical aspects of weight transfer is an interesting line of conversation. I think there are some variables, which significantly affect the car that have yet to be discussed: how you set up the corner is going to affect weight transfers, how and when you pick up the throttle, your corner philosophy (squaring the corner versus slinging the rearend), and how you manage the throttle through the exit of the corner all affects weight transfer. When you set the corner, you load the right front spring and unload the left rear spring. As you begin to apply the throttle in the corner, the car seeks to return to balance (moment center). If you run a limiter chain on the left front, it's going to reduce the chassis roll when between the time after you've set the corner until the time when you begin to pick up the throttle if your feet are working independently. If you are a two footed driver - meaning you concurrently apply the brake and throttle to set the corner trying to keep the RPMs up in the corner - then there's less weight transfer (reduced suspension movement). So chaining the left front could affect the center of the corner off depending on your driving style. But, if you fail to adapt your driving style the car would likely push like a Minnesota snow plow.

[MADCAPRACING22]

Man, what a great discussion! This is what I look for right here. You have to sift through some BS to get to discussions like this. Thank you Matt49 for validating the Bloomquist Weight Article because that article is the foundation of my understanding! Matt49,GRT74 and some others have helped me a lot with their posts and I want to thank you!

[Bubstr]

Good post here. This is all about weight transferred by forces, or in this case, limiting the assistance of the spring to aid in this transfer. I think the biggest misconception is where or what path the weight takes on the transfer.

Every car has a center of gravity or mass if you choose. It has a specific position, front to rear side to side and maybe most important a height. What transfers weight is force applied to this center of mass, it sucks the weight there and transfers it from there. Every bit of weight in the car, down to the change in your pocket effects where this spot is. Make no mistake, this spot is the most important thing about making a car handle. The rest is just tools to modify the mistakes or compromises made here.

[7uptruckracer]

Your center of gravity is the moment arm that acts on your roll center it provides the "leverage" that causes the weight jacking. I can see why the good manfacturers get paid so well and why they guard their info so much. This will add gray hair to your head

[Bubstr]

Your center of gravity is the moment arm that acts on your roll center it provides the "leverage" that causes the weight jacking. I can see why the good manfacturers get paid so well and why they guard their info so much. This will add gray hair to your head

What gray hair? anyone with scales a jack and a couple blocks, bubble protractor a little simple geometry can find exactly where this center of mass is and it's height. Once you find that spot, by rigging a chain to hold that spot at any level angle that force would be applied threw braking, cornering or acceleration, you can find exactly where the weight goes under dynamic conditions, by simply jacking the car up any specific height opposite the hold back, then tightening the chain and block the contact patches from moving, let car down and measure difference in scaled weight. The force is constant from the chain. It will make your asymmetrical adjustments to roll centers, rear bars, panhard bar and control arms work just as on the track with oscillation from bump or ruts. The guy I learned this from said it was a chassis dyno. I'd say, unless you have the bucks for a 5 post shaker, it's the next best thing. What it won't do is chart the speed of transfer that you use shocks for. Note all hold backs and chain have to be level. Also note the steering angle will change the scaled weight due to king pin inclination. This may be old school but sound physical laws.

[7uptruckracer]

I'm talking about the roll center and geometry part I've done the COG scale measurement plenty of times. I'm talking about what everyone is doing these days with the spindle inclination, their roll centers static and dynamic (which is the important part), what camber curves they run etc. etc. Its not hard to take all the measurements but deciding what direction is the new cutting edge and keeping up with the tech curve while still winning races and developing new things seems like it would be a handful, I guess that's why you see people just getting a new chassis year to year whatever they see winning races they switch too. One year its the Rocket next year it Genx, then they will get an MBH, or BWRC. I saw one recently, Austin Hubbard's car (The Charlotte Car) they had Data Acquisition data on and they had it on the rig running it through a laps of data to see where everything moved, it was cool to watch for sure.

[Bubstr]

The process I out lined will not show exactly how many lbs will be on each wheel going threw a corner at FALs or EastBay, as there are too many variables in forces, traction, banking and track shapes, but what it will tell you is balance at any degree of force applied. If the force is greater, more weight will be transferred, but at the same proportions at a lesser force. One of the variables is banking of the track. This changes applied force and can be replicated by changing the angle of the hold back chain up or down on the anchoring end.

Balance is the important part, example= chain 90 degrees off the right side. This would represent the time in the corner, where no brake or gas is applied, rolling the corner.The weights would represent a guide to a neutral, tail loose or pushing car. The roll centers are active, because they deterine to some extent where the weight moves to. This gives yo a multitude of changes that you can research at the shop, for possible changes at the track later, like moving weight, changing pan hard bars or 4 link bars, ride height adjustments or spring changes. The beauty is you get no surprises. Entering the corner, move the chain to the front quarter and turn the wheel, read the scales for balance under breaking and turning. Exit, apply gas by moving chain rearward and reading the scales. What you will see is one of the most under looked things is weight height. In engineering terms, it would be force vectors, I think, but in simple terms low eight can push a tire sideways, reducing traction and high weight can push down on a tire increasing traction. Of course too much will turn your car into a bicycle and if you transfer weight to one wheel, it comes from another, that's where balance comes in. At minimum, it will give you a better understanding of dynamic wight transfer.