Dry Sump NEED HELP!!!

[GBowman]

I have been battling a problem with my dry sump and figured there are more guys on this Forum using them than just about anywhere else! Anyway, I have a Cobra kit with a 445CU SBF, 2.5 Gal Patterson reservoir/breather mounted in trunk, Johnson 3 stage pump...1) Pump is loud when cold-almost a ratcheting sound and the lines/pump vibrate quite a bit, called Johnson he says this is ok?2) Oil bleeds past the pump if the car sits for too long, say 10 days and there is no oil visible in the site glass-Johnson says this shouldn't happen.So I send pump back to Johnson, he goes through it and sends it back with a new seal in it. He says everything is good with the pump but that I have a problem that is creating the seal to bulge out (too much crank case pressure???)So I re-install it after checking everything, motor is brand new. both VC's are vented hoses are all the correct size etc...cold pressure at idle is 40 PSI cold at 3000 is 68 PSI, hot idle is 22 PSI at 3000 it is 55 PSI. I put about 60 miles on it and the seal blew once again, any ideas??? Its driving me crazy, even if the bypass didnt work how could 68 PSI blow a shaft seal out???Thx for the help

[let-r-eat]

You will have to describe how your system is plumbed. All returns in the pan? Where are you pressurizing the system from? an Oil filter adapter?You were saying you had tank in the trunk area. What size are the lines?Just a general overview of how your system is plumbed would help a ton. Blowing pump seals doesn't sound good and would come from high internal pressures as Johnson alluded.

[GBowman]

Yep...Suction side-2 scavenge lines from pan (-10), 1 feed from reservoir (-16) Pressure side-remote oil filter (-12), Return to reservoir (-16). Return side has a Johnson filter per his recommendation as well. Thing that baffles me...wouldn't the bypass protect the seal from excessive pressure? This is my first dry sump so I apologize if I am leaving out key info. Thanks for the help!

[GBowman]

If it matters...Brad Penn 10W 30 Dino.

[gaz05]

Not sure what else is going on but we use at least 3 x -12 out of the oil pan... 2 scavenge is not enough for that engine, lot of cubes, capable of a lot of crankcase volume/pressure. Cant comment on Johnson pumps, have only used Barnes or Petersen, but a 3 stage pump is not adequate.

[fastford]

what type filter do you have one the pressure side, between pump and engine, your hot idle pressure seems low to me, all my ford engines with external pumps, whether dry or wet sump idle between 35 and 40 psi hot, also what block are you using?

[GBowman]

The 2 scavenge lines are -12 I made a mistake, the filter is the big one by Ford Racing (dont remember the # off top of my head but it a big one). Block is a Dart SHP 9.5"-I was lectured by Johnson on oil pressure vs flow, he said unusable oil pressure (that beyong the engines capacity) turns into increased oil temp. He said 15 PSI hot idle was fine and no more than 50 PSI hot at full consumption. I still dont understand...even if the scavenge lines were not big enough, with a fully vented motor how would that translate into high pressure behind the seal???

[LateModel B23]

Here is how I have always plumbed my dry sump systems:

Out of the tank: -16 to pressure in on the pump ( have always used Barnes bellhousing mount) Pressure out of the pump: -12 to remote filter (2 quart remote) -12 out of filter to Seatrab deck mount cooler, -12 out of cooler to front inlet of motor.

Scavenge/return: 2 each -12 out of pan, 1 each -10 out of lifter valley with Peterson screens @ inlets, to scavenge in on pump. -16 out of pump to Peterson inline filter (screen type) out of filter -16 to tank.

[wisdirtfan]

How big are the scavenge and pressure sections of the pump? AS far as pressure Im fine with the pressure you have especially since you are running thin oil. The three stage pump is probably enough since you are not spinning 7500 all the time. The drain back does happen sometimes but my question is how is the tank mounted compared to the inlet of the pump? the tank needs to be higher than the pump so it can gravity feed properly and being mounted in the trunk its quite a ways from the pump and these pumps don't self prime.

[GBowman]

Wis-I spoke to Roy Johnson today for an hour...reservoir is in trunk above pump, we are going to remove the return line -16 and check flow back to reservoir since this is the only place a restriction could affect the seal. I didnt realize that the pressure section (rear of pump) does not have a path to the seal that blew. The only place that can affect the seal is the scavenge section, thus, there is only the -16 return line...I did not install the inner coil on this line as I saw it to be a pressurized line so I guess we will see. This is a weird one man...

[fastford]

the scavenge line is pulling a vacuum so with out the coil , it may be forming a check valve, is this what he told you? as far as oil pressure, all the clevland main engines ive ran, with the bi pass set at 60psi never ran under 30 to 40 psi hot idle with 15w 40 oil, but let me say mine were dirt track engines idling probably higher than yours , I guess at 7 or 800 rpms, it could drop. good luck and let us know what you find.

[GBowman]

Well, we are going to check for a restriction in the -16 return line to reservoir tomorrow. The one with the filter in it, these lines are stainless reinforced lines rated at 28 HG vacuum, with a pump that pulls only 8 HG I cant see the hose being the issue esp on the return side which is positive pressure. I'll keep you all posted...bringing the full compliment of testing equipment...flow meter included.

[GBowman]

Fastford this engine is a solid roller with pressure fed lifters so we are idling at 1250 to keep oil on them, everything I've learned about lubrication lately has gone against my old school theories of more pressure is better. I actually had to change pulleys reduce psi and find the sweet spot for this engines consumption. The 5 20 Dominator Amsoil brought 22 psi at hot idle, the BP 10W 30 brings 25 psi hot idle which is more than enough so long as the psi increases in a linear scope as rpm increases, we hit max psi @ 2900-3000. This motor has all the best stuff, callies dragonslayer crank, isky red zone lifters, race tech pistons, olliver billet rods, TFW heads, ferrea valves/titanium retainers, custom bullet cam D260/L700....yatta yatta, no expense spared...dynoed at 662HP 576 lb ft...for a street car that weighs 2300#'s it runs like a raped ape-just need to get the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) pump to work right!

[Brian Gray]

I'd say 2 stages of scavange will require good ventilation. Rule on pressure is 10 lbs per 1000 rpm . also make sure you have good ventilation at the tank.

[LM14]

How are you venting the tank? We always ran a -16 vent line from the top of the tank to a separate breather/separator tank. Your vent has to be as big as the line dumping into the tank. If you see oil blowing out of the tank vent, the vent line is too small. If it is severely small, that could be the pressure you are building in the return line.

We ran 3 stage pumps on 351 - 380" Ford motors without any problems. All your line sizes are normal for a Ford. If you put your hand over the breather hole on the valve cover does it try to suck your hand against the tube or blow it off?

Just because it's a braided line doesn't mean it will not collapse. You can have the rubber hose pull away from the braid and collapse under vacuum.

SPark

[fastford]

I'd say 2 stages of scavange will require good ventilation. Rule on pressure is 10 lbs per 1000 rpm . also make sure you have good ventilation at the tank.

ive never had a engine only run 10psi at 1000 rpms, I considered that rule to apply as you bring the engine up from idle, i.e. if your idling at 30 psi at say 1000rpm , as you throttle up it should gain 10psi for every 1000rpm gain. I do agree that to much pressure is bad , so I regulate my pressure to 60psi max with engine hot. I also run my engines totally sealed with a pop off valve on one valve cover and only the tank vented and never had a problem. I did have a problem with the liner turning loose on a scavenge line one time like the poster below you said.

[fastford]

Fastford this engine is a solid roller with pressure fed lifters so we are idling at 1250 to keep oil on them, everything I've learned about lubrication lately has gone against my old school theories of more pressure is better. I actually had to change pulleys reduce psi and find the sweet spot for this engines consumption. The 5 20 Dominator Amsoil brought 22 psi at hot idle, the BP 10W 30 brings 25 psi hot idle which is more than enough so long as the psi increases in a linear scope as rpm increases, we hit max psi @ 2900-3000. This motor has all the best stuff, callies dragonslayer crank, isky red zone lifters, race tech pistons, olliver billet rods, TFW heads, ferrea valves/titanium retainers, custom bullet cam D260/L700....yatta yatta, no expense spared...dynoed at 662HP 576 lb ft...for a street car that weighs 2300#'s it runs like a raped ape-just need to get the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) pump to work right!

ive never liked to much pressure, but I do things a little different than you, I gear my pump up to get hot idle pressure I want, then use the regulator and regulator spring to regulate the max pressure I want

[GBowman]

Thx for the input ev one...we are starting the process right now. Car is on the lift and beers are staying in the fridge!!!

[GBowman]

Fast-yes, the vent line to the breather can is a -16, I just went out and looked.

[wisdirtfan]

Ive never ran a -16 breather mine is -12 also the scavenge lines are -12 from the pan -10 from the valley into the pump then two -12 lines through the Oberg then two -12 lines back to the tank the feed from the tank is -12 the pressure out is -10 and I run sealed with a pop off valve and -12 from the top of the tank to the breather. I can honestly say Ive never had a single problem with the oil system ever it has always performed flawlessly. Hope you get your problem figured out.

[wisdirtfan]

The other cause of oil blowing out the breather tank is too much oil in the system I had that happen once when an inexperienced helper filled the tank after a change and put 2 too many quarts in.

[GBowman]

No restriction anywhere, return filter was spotless...checked flow through all hoses-wide open. Only 2 things we can think of is the small pulley at high RPM creating too much pressure on the return line to the tank putting too much pressure on the seal??? Or an internal prob with the pump itself, I'll be calling Johnson today.

[fastford]

I thought you geared the pump down? any way with all that checked, my bet is a problem with the pump, which I suspected from the start, ive dealt with a lot of other pumps, but I have never had my hands on one like yours, I don't know how the internal regulator is designed, any way, good luck to you and when you finally find the problem , please let us know.