Engine Rebuild Cost

[rickybobby23]

Ran our first race of the year, and our first ever with a dry sump system. Turns out the belt came off the oil pump and we lost pressure obviously. The motor is not completely fresh anyway, and talking with guys they suggest we get the motor torn down and looked at since the pressure was lost, which makes sense. Just wondered what a ballpark price is for a refresh/rebuild on an aluminum engine. Also, any ideas what may have caused the belt to slide off the pulleys? Misalignment? Not enough tension?

[Brian Gray]

I tell customers up front its $ 2000.00 labor to tear down and reassemble. Any parts and or machine time required is additional.

Loosing the belt is most likely you pump is not square with the crank or drive.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You can't get back out the door with any of the top line builders for under $6500.

[hucktyson]

Your 8-9k with having lost a belt maybe more

[hucktyson]

A lost belt at high rpm is
A possible crank and rods rebuild of 10k plus. The belt coming off is either it was over tensioned , or you used the tensioner to pull the pump right before the lower bolt was almost tight which leaves the pump (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ed or your pulley is too far forward which shredds it on the coupler bolts

[Matt49]

Ultimately, it really depends on how bad you hurt it. And nobody is going to give you a ballpark on price until they have it apart. If it ran for any length of time without oil pressure you should get it looked at even if it means you find out you can't afford to have it put back together.
Or just run it and hope it doesn't come unglued and then you're going to be buying a new one.

[grt74]

we run an oil pressure kill switch,it shuts the ignition off by killing the power to the ignition if the oil pressure falls below 10-15lbs,THE BEST MONEY IVE EVER SPENT IN RACING PERIOD,it has saved at least 2 engines easy,it will shut it down before it does a huge amount of damage,i dont care how quick you think you can shut it down to save it,this kill switch shuts it down the instant it falls below 10-15lbs,not to mention your engine builder will love ya for it

[fastford]

I like the pressure kill switch also, if you are gone put the belt back on and try it, I would run it for a few min , cut it off and cut the oil filter open and look for debris on inlet side of filter, I would at least do this before rolling the dice, JMO

[hpmaster]

Any price you get here is just a guess. My last "refresh" on my big engine with 0 problems at 1700 laps was $5500.00, in 2012. That was new lifters, new springs, valve job, new valves, timing set, bearings, polish crank, gaskets, 1 rocker shaft and rings. So with that in mind just go up from there. I am old school, have a big a$$ red trailer light that blinds you if you lose oil pressure.

[TALON75]

1700 laps and no pistons? Your right though, it is just a guess and probably just scorched the crank or a rod bearing or two but it definitely needs to be looked at. I have seen two people just slip a new belt on and hope for the best, they ended up spending way more! We had a loose belt this year, driver caught it pretty quick but still hurt the crank and a couple rods.

[hpmaster]

1700 laps and no pistons? Your right though, it is just a guess and probably just scorched the crank or a rod bearing or two but it definitely needs to be looked at. I have seen two people just slip a new belt on and hope for the best, they ended up spending way more! We had a loose belt this year, driver caught it pretty quick but still hurt the crank and a couple rods.

No pistons, it was it's first build from new. Oil never went more than 3 nights, never over heated and I always use MotorKote. Learned about MotorKote many years ago when I worked as a field serviceman on industrial engines for Waukeshaw engines and we did engine oil spectrographs during engine warrenty. It was the only oil additive that spectrographs proved worked. Ok let all the smart guys blar har about it, I don't care it works. By the way you don't have to treat an engine as much as MotorKote says.
http://motorkote.com/10oz-motorkote-hyper-lubricant.html
http://motorkote.com/test_results

[hucktyson]

HP .... Which builder is recommending 1700 laps ?? The builders I know replace pistons after 1000- 1100 laps ...I'm not saying your wrong but I have never seen anyone recommend that long of an interval

[hpmaster]

HP .... Which builder is recommending 1700 laps ?? The builders I know replace pistons after 1000- 1100 laps ...I'm not saying your wrong but I have never seen anyone recommend that long of an interval

Me. My experience has been I have had zero issues with my motors at 1500 to 1700 laps with me taking care of them. I was an engine builder in the 1970's and 1980's. The builder I use is in Cedar Rapids Iowa and in 10 years I have had no issues what so ever with his work. He said my engines look great at the 1500 to 1700 lap area. I really do believe it is MotorKote. MotorKote was developed years ago by a lubrication engineer from Michigan State University. He sold it out of his trunk for years. I ran into it when reviewing spectrograph reports on an engine that was under warranty in the oil fields. It came back with numbers about 90% low for metals in the oil. As the motor was under warranty I suspected a large oil loss from a leak was covered up with fixing the leak and replacing the oil, these engines have remote oil filters of over 30 gallon capacities. I went back to the owner and told him what I suspected. He admitted using this MotorKote. So I tracked it in his engines with spectrographs and ALL came back with similar results of 80 to 90% lower amounts of metal in the oil. So I started using it in all my engines, rearends and transmissions. I got 315,000 miles out of a Chevy 1983 4 speed automatic with it and had 305's go over 400,000 miles with just a timing set. Nuff commercials for today the sh!t works. Use the links in my earlier post, then go to Wally World and buy some. Just had a guy ask why I didn't say who builds my motors. I don't care who they are or who you are some dillweed will have a different view. If you want a builder go ask people you trust, make your own choice and live with it. If you really want to figure it out there is GOOGLE.

[Brian Gray]

I cool blue coat all moving parts and have engines going 2000 +

I've heard of guys using motorkote and linkite never tried it though.

We have much better component selection now even years ago I seen short track engines make 2500 and guys would run em till the second ring disappeared. 250 laps at Daytona is more run time than 2500 laps around a bull ring guys.

[el paso mod 19]

I just bought a bottle at Wallyworld. I have a 6 1/2 quart pan, will 8 oz of this be enough? If it does it would be good for 4 oil changes.

[fastford]

using just over a 1 inch comp height piston , a 5.4 in rod and a 3.5 stroke, I am always fighting piston gauld, I've had great luck coating my pistons with ceramalube, I am always looking for something extra though, I will try this motorkote, thanks for the tip hpmaster.

[grt74]

What if your at a big special and it loses oil psi on the last lap?

Id be pissed at that kill switch. or if it killed it on a restart and I got plowed into from behind totaling a car. I cant think of man good situations for any switch that will shut my car off.

most people that are on here aren't racing for the national series points,and if I'm racing for 10,000 or less I'm saving my engine,also there is a steering wheel in the car so you can turn into the infield or close to the wall and out of the groove at most tracks,your either an engine builder who likes to get business from some peoples misfortune or your just showing your intelligence,just my opinion,from my personal experience it has saved thousands of dollars for me and thats all i can speak for is my experience
if you guys want to trash a 40,000 dollar engine or even a 20,000 dollar engine for 10,000 dollars be my guest but I'm not,i know racing is a losing battle but I'm not just going to throw my money away over a 10-20 dollar switch
thanks hp,I'm going to check into that product
i may have went overboard a little but who wants to win 10,000 just to spend 10,000 or more with all the work that goes with it,over a switch,like i said best 20 i ever spent

[grt74]

Intelligence? 21 years of racing and blown up a few motors, but won a few races cooking them down. 10k to win is irrelevant to me, but I would cook a motor for a 5 foot trophy to give to some fan in the stands at a big show with 50-100 cars any time.

lets agree to disagree,I'm just saying it just not worth it to me,and I've got 3 supers and 1 crate ready to go and still would not want to melt it down but i don't run for points either,i also foot the bill

[Matt49]

I can see both sides of this argument on the switch deal and I'll say this:
I've won races but never in a Late Model. If my oil pressure light comes on at the white flag and I'm leading, I can promise you I'm NOT shutting it down :-)

Didn't Jimmy Owens run the last several laps of one of his Eldora wins with the oil pressure light on while leading?

My point is that sometimes getting in victory lane is worth it regardless of the actual cost.

But again, I can see both sides of the debate.

[hpmaster]

What if your at a big special and it loses oil psi on the last lap?

Id be pissed at that kill switch. or if it killed it on a restart and I got plowed into from behind totaling a car. I cant think of man good situations for any switch that will shut my car off.

I can't argue with that. Truth is if we were pragmatic, dollar wise and rational thinkers we wouldn't be within a mile of a race car anyway's.

[hucktyson]

HP I understand how motorkote cuts down wear but I can't see how it makes rod bolts or the pin bosses on pistons hold up better and longer ??

[hpmaster]

HP I understand how motorkote cuts down wear but I can't see how it makes rod bolts or the pin bosses on pistons hold up better and longer ??

Guess I am lucky but I have not lost an engine since using it and pulling them at the 1500 + lap area. As for rod bolts those are replaced every time my engines were done, my bad for not saying that. I fully understand there is your way, my way and the right way.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I can see both sides of this argument on the switch deal and I'll say this:
I've won races but never in a Late Model. If my oil pressure light comes on at the white flag and I'm leading, I can promise you I'm NOT shutting it down :-)

Didn't Jimmy Owens run the last several laps of one of his Eldora wins with the oil pressure light on while leading?

My point is that sometimes getting in victory lane is worth it regardless of the actual cost.

But again, I can see both sides of the debate.

I remember Kevin Weaver ran second at Eldora with no oil pressure one time.

[FlatTire]

Thanks for the info hpmaster.

Here's a interesting bit on LUCAS.....

http://web.archive.org/web/20100926133335/http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

I've always used Lucas and was impressed how it was so sticky. After letting an engine sit there on the shop floor for over a year, the valve train was still coated in a nice film of oil(Lucas). But after seeing this test by Bob the Oil guy, and the other test by Motorkote showing what happens with LUCAS, I'm kind of up in the air about it now. We've ran Royal Purple with LUCAS additive in our spec motors for years and always had excellent bearing wear but struggled with piston ring wear after 22 races. I imagine the excessive ring wear could be attributed to the alcohol as well.

[HuckleberryB4]

I'm headed to grab some MotorKote after work. I've spent money on worse things in racing. lol.

[hpmaster]

Thanks for the info hpmaster.

Here's a interesting bit on LUCAS.....

http://web.archive.org/web/20100926133335/http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

I've always used Lucas and was impressed how it was so sticky. After letting an engine sit there on the shop floor for over a year, the valve train was still coated in a nice film of oil(Lucas). But after seeing this test by Bob the Oil guy, and the other test by Motorkote showing what happens with LUCAS, I'm kind of up in the air about it now. We've ran Royal Purple with LUCAS additive in our spec motors for years and always had excellent bearing wear but struggled with piston ring wear after 22 races. I imagine the excessive ring wear could be attributed to the alcohol as well.

MotorKote said it treats the metal not the oil, for whatever thats worth.

[RACR_73s]

hpmaster, on the Motorkote site I think I read on their site that you don't make allowance for the product...in other words you would still put the same amount of oil in the crankcase. I could almost understand this on an engine that takes 4qts (8oz) but on a drysump system or in my case my diesel truck that takes 16qts, that is an extra quart. Do you know why this is or do you make allowances?

[Mosidebite]

A trucker put me onto the Motorkote several years ago. He was a trucker by trade but had a ARCA car that he played with. We were racing at a mile track where everything is abused and he noticed me draining and dumping my rearend fluid then replacing with new and cool. He said to stop and we dumped this stuff in with the old oil after the sales pitch. 6 lap heats made over 50 degrees more heat than a GWC 20 lapper...it's in everything I own now

[Necrosis]

All oil additives are detrimental to engine life. This is not an opinion. If there are things you think you're lacking in your oil, then get a better oil. Don't dump in a $5 bottle of crud and think that you're outsmarting professional Tribologists and billions of dollars of research.Now, Top Fuel engines are an entirely different story, but that is about the only exception I can think of.

[mattworx]

as far as pistons go most big engine builders don't waste there time to inspect pistons .you racers have so much money you can afford it (sarcasm!!)if you don't over heat ,detonate,dirt or any other dumb thing pistons can and will run a long time , but have to be inspected . remember even new parts brake

HP .... Which builder is recommending 1700 laps ?? The builders I know replace pistons after 1000- 1100 laps ...I'm not saying your wrong but I have never seen anyone recommend that long of an interval

[hpmaster]

All oil additives are detrimental to engine life. This is not an opinion. If there are things you think you're lacking in your oil, then get a better oil. Don't dump in a $5 bottle of crud and think that you're outsmarting professional Tribologists and billions of dollars of research.Now, Top Fuel engines are an entirely different story, but that is about the only exception I can think of.

Some 15 years ago I asked my friend, Dave Smith, who has since retired, who was high up in Goodwrench Racing about what the GM engineers stance on MotorKote was. His reply was after testing GM would not confirm that it did or did not work as advertised but that it did zero damage to components in their opinion. This combined with my own experience with oil analysis testing I would assert you paint with a rather broad brush.JMHO

[Bubstr]

Take it for what it's worth, but quite some time ago, the EPA set limits on Zink in motor oil. GM came out with their own oil supplement called EOS, engine oil supplement. The only reason was to add that zink back in.

Recently VW has recommended oils with higher zink content to keep warranty up.

We where having trouble with flat tappet cams with aggressive ramp speed and the EOS seemed to cure that problem. Before that, I would have said oil supplements was a bunch of bunk also. You could actually see the improvement on the camshaft and lifter finish after break in with a magnifying glass.

I'd like to say it helped wear and temps in the quick change also, but I installed a good filter on the hand pump at the same time. The way I see it is, a little cutting oil on a drill or mill will change the finish for the better and reduce heat, so why not.

[Necrosis]

You guys all make a great argument...FOR BUYING A BETTER OIL!!! Not dumping in a bottle of gunk. Btw, zinc (zddp) is one extremely small part of an oil's additive package. You ever hear people say that old Rotella T was the best because of it's high zinc level? Well guess what, the NEW Rotella has higher zinc content.When you add random crap to your oil, you change a carefully balanced formula. Unless you are extremely knowledgable in Tribology and blending, you are 99.9% of the time doing more harm than good.