Crate Motor Debate

[DirtRacer9x]

Just a real simple question. Why is it the motor of choice these days?

[LITE-INN]

exactly my friend

[twisterf5]

well for us it's travel time and cost. we run a 602 class 30 min from the house. ran ump first of the year and was on the road most of the time. in imca it comes down to hard tires and with the cost of fuel the track are allot dryer then they use to be so the crate just works out better.

[dereksehi]

As an engine builder I agree with stock car driver these engines could be easily duplicated keep the compression mild and the rpm right around the crate also the reason the crate is so driveable is the increase in the lobe separation (112) with some of the engine I build and run we have seen success with the wider separation makes the torque and hp curve flat and a lot easier to hook up. Why people are still trying to run big cubes with a lot of compression and high rpm is beyond me especially when the crate has proven you can win with 450 hp this is just my opinion.

[mod88s]

I agree with stock car and will add the following. It is a package deal. Not only are the crates more driveable with the torque curve being smooth and not too peaky, but then you add in the little spoiler and weight off the nose, and theres your answer. its the whole deal, not just the motor itself. On a stop and go tight corner track, the crates however are not the top choice. I know several of the top guys in IMCA use another car with open motor on the small stop and go tracks.

[dereksehi]

If nose weight is an issue then more people that like the open motor choice should be running Ford 347s they are light and seem to make real good power and could be reliably built for right around the crate price.

[mod88s]

I wouldn't really say nose weight is an ISSUE, I would call it a small part of the equation.

[drtrkr244]

If nose weight is an issue then more people that like the open motor choice should be running Ford 347s they are light and seem to make real good power and could be reliably built for right around the crate price.

Can you really build a brand new, vortec steel heads, motor for $2900? Many have tried in my area and couldn't do it.

Just basically throw on a carb and water pump and your racin. I think that's whats driving the crate motor deal now. imo

[dereksehi]

drtrkr244 I thought we were talking about the 604 crate? As far as building a new engine for $2900 I have not seen where you can buy a 602 for $2900 but if you want an engine that is the same quality as a 602 which couldnt be a 347 if you are talking about competing in the norhern sportmod class cuz its not legal. An engine of equal quality to the 602 could probly be built for right around that price if you wanted cast pistons stock rods with the stock bolts stock valves and springs and RV/towing hydraulic camshaft which is what the 602 is.

[dereksehi]

I agree I wouldn't use lightweight rotating either these crates are just another engine they can be duplicated very easily I've done quite a bit of R and D against the 602 crate and have come up with a successful engine package against them I don't believe building one against the 604 would be much different just have to keep it toned down some.

[dereksehi]

I'm not sure why they are doing that the lighter the rotating the quicker the engine will be which isn't good on the slick especially with junk IMCA tires. I believe if an engine was fairly mild lower compression cubic inches right around 350 run at a respectable rpm like 6500 and the right camshaft they would be just as driveable as a crate with just a little more grunt.

[mod88s]

So why doesn't someone start building a proven steel crate motor? I've seen a couple builders duplicate the HP and TQ but I'm not convinced that they did it properly. Meaning I saw they used lighter rotating assembly and etc things. I believe the rotating assembly being the same has a lot to do with the car and its handling as well. I'm not an engine builder by any means but just my $.02 and theory.


FYI there are lots of builders out there now building "crate killer" motors. Kevin Stoa among others have been doing it for a while now. But again, its the package, not just the crate, that makes it work.

[dereksehi]

Its not just the fact of being smooth which is very important too but too much power just overwelms the tires as well as running a lot of gear. There is no way these IMCA tires will hold near that amount of power so why build an engine that produces that much? I would guess as long as you stayed right around the power and torque the crate makes and stayed fairly mild on compression but use the wide lsa the engine would be just as smooth and reliable as the crate. Also using the lightweight rotating would boost the cost and more than likely make the engine too quick to be manageable on dry which around here is every nite.

[drtrkr244]

drtrkr244 I thought we were talking about the 604 crate? As far as building a new engine for $2900 I have not seen where you can buy a 602 for $2900 but if you want an engine that is the same quality as a 602 which couldnt be a 347 if you are talking about competing in the norhern sportmod class cuz its not legal. An engine of equal quality to the 602 could probly be built for right around that price if you wanted cast pistons stock rods with the stock bolts stock valves and springs and RV/towing hydraulic camshaft which is what the 602 is.

I was going by the 3,5 post, but I saw some were talking about alum heads so I knew that was the 604. For whatever reason, the 602 in my area isn't legal, in any class. Go figure!

[jasjenh]

I build all my own engines and think most of the responses are fairly close it is a package, but one piece of the puzzle is the roller cam. Years ago I had a 377 roller cam motor when we could still run roller cams, it was the best motor I ever had for smooth useable power. Won a lot of features with that motor, but when I switched it over to the flat tappet junk the motor never ran the same. I still use the engine and have tried probably 15 different cams with no success. One example is wissota this year, the crate didn't dominate like imca. But they have a spec headed 355 with a roller cam. Very usable power.

[72Dubya]

I am running an all steel flat tappet 374 with a two barrel, and on the dyno (engine and chassis both) from 3000 rpm up to when the power drops off, the torque and HP curves were close to identical. It is a very smooth motor, and I have been running nothing but Hoosier H40 tires (hard as a rock compound) and have no problem hooking up on a slick track.

Smooth power can be made with a flat tappet, but it took a lot of homework from us and our builder.

That being said, I know a two barrel won't be as aggressive on acceleration as a four barrel, so this is just my .02 worth on the built motor situation.

[Duckhnter83]

I don't believe its a package deal completely I think first is stop over powering the track. What good is HP and torque when everything is spinning. Its all about building that big hp/tq motor and getting it to gradually apply that to the track

[jasjenh]

I am not saying it can't be done but we have built motors with similar hp and tq to the crate and they don't seem to work as good as the crate. I will never own a crate but I don't mind the challenge of beating them. same as the stoa motors they can be beat by a home built motor we do it all the time. The problem we run into at our track is it is 50/50 whether it is dry or heavy. So one night if you don't have 600hp you get lapped by lap 10 then the next night you only need 450hp. On heavy nights the crates are usually a 6th to 10th place car. For wins at our track it has been about 50/50 open vs crate. As for the smooth power from a flat tappet the dyno says it should be the same but the seat of the pants dyno says it is not the same.

[Excell Racing]

Karls Chevrolet builds crate killer motors out of Des Moines IA. They seem to be working good for them and are reasonably priced.
Quite a few years back I blew up my 350 and the only motor I had laying around was a 302 chevy. Won more money with that motor than any other including 377, 383, 406. Just geared the 302 deep and ran as much stagger as I could find . Hammer down. Sold the little thing and now I'm tempted to try it again.

[jasjenh]

We have built a few small cube short stroke motors over the years and they always worked pretty good. I even stroked a 305 for a hobby car to a 329 and it won and got claimed. ha ha. The fun for me is trying different stuff to see what works. You would be surprised at the stuff that works that other people say you are crazy to try.

[sirleafalot]

We have built a few small cube short stroke motors over the years and they always worked pretty good. I even stroked a 305 for a hobby car to a 329 and it won and got claimed. ha ha. The fun for me is trying different stuff to see what works. You would be surprised at the stuff that works that other people say you are crazy to try. Brian at GRE is great and recently had a mention in speedway illustrated. GRE builds a crate killer cheaper, lighter and more hp... www.teamgre.net here a link on fb to the article in speedway illustrated. https://www.facebook.com/Teamgre/photos/a.587476678026905.1073741829.426230967484811/641624612612111/?type=1&theater Note this is a Ford deal and while its not for everyone, glad to see someone taking on the crates at a fair price.

[sirleafalot]

I'm getting really tired of hearing all these "crate killer" builds. Then I see every single one has a lighter rotating assembly. Sorry but maybe that's why the crate works as good as it does. Why don't they do some testing instead of looking at just HP and TQ to match a crate. would you consider victories good enough for testing ? Or what is your standard ? Yeah there are a few crate killers out there but what do you expect the engine builders to do close up shop and start selling crates only ? GRE has a ton of victories to back it up, but hey if you are happy with the crate then keep buying them, there are some of us that are not interested in the crate.

[sirleafalot]

I am fully against the crate motor actually. I just get tired of seeing builders put together ONLY the same HP and TQ and they all did it with light rotating assemblies. What GRE does I don't know but I am 100% against the crate and the aspect of building a motor taken out if the equation. gotcha, i know from talking to Brian/GRE his big deal was getting a smooth TQ curve to make this deal work against crates, and I know he has and still does a lot of dyno work to confirm this. We have one of his UMP motors and it indeed smooth and not volatile. Tough market right now, I do think that to compete against the crates, it has to be light, priced right and a smooth TQ curve, otherwise the crate is tough to compete against on the track and in the market place. IMCA seems determined to make the crates the order of the day, so I support anyone that is making an honest effort to compete against the crates.

[jasjenh]

Nice to hear someone else is trying a ford motor. A buddy of mine has been running some ford motors this year with good results. as to the lighter rotating assembly I have about half and half of heavy rotating and light rotating and don't see much difference in the two besides price. lol A little more throttle response with the light assembly. I think people make to much out of the entry into the corner from the crate. When I switch from the a-mod to the b-mod I always charge the corner harder because it seems like you are on the straight forever but the stopwatch says you go about the same speed.(in the feature) Its funny how years ago we built bigger and bigger motors to drag race on the straights, now the suspensions finally caught up and we can get rid of some power to go faster.