Lr front shock on a clamp instead of the bird cage

[wilwilbur]

Has anyone tried this. It seems like on my car anytime I run the shock in front I loose forward bite. I'm going to try taking shock off cage and run it on a clamp to the side of the cage. Anyone tried this?

[Matt49]

Has anyone tried this. It seems like on my car anytime I run the shock in front I loose forward bite. I'm going to try taking shock off cage and run it on a clamp to the side of the cage. Anyone tried this?

Have you considered just running without it and increasing the compression in the behind shock?

[wilwilbur]

Yes most of the time. Just the car will fall of the bars easily in traffic if you don't trail brake perfectly. I was just wondering if you got the hold up shock off of the cage it won't effect traction as much. I have a 2014 lazer and they want you to run it and it just seems to really slow the car down even in the hooked up track. You take it off its awsome so obviously we don't run it. I'm just gonna have to try it on a clamp and see what it does.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yes most of the time. Just the car will fall of the bars easily in traffic if you don't trail brake perfectly. I was just wondering if you got the hold up shock off of the cage it won't effect traction as much. I have a 2014 lazer and they want you to run it and it just seems to really slow the car down even in the hooked up track. You take it off its awsome so obviously we don't run it. I'm just gonna have to try it on a clamp and see what it does.

Make sure you are not losing drop with the front shock. There can be some difference, but what you describe seems very unusual.

[Matt49]

Like MB said, make sure it is still your chain that is limiting drop and not the shock in front.
If you decide to put it on a clamp it will provide less effective dampening in rebound which should help you get on the bars quicker but it will also provide less effective dampening in compression which will give you the drop off feeling that you're trying to avoid in traffic or on corner entry.

[grt74]

i agree with matt and mb racer,we run a traction shock with no problems as far as forward drive(there has been times we have too much forward drive and we always run a traction shock but i have valved it the way i like it)
if you started off with out a traction shock and the car had plenty of drive,then put a traction shock on and lost drive ,i would check the lr drop like stated above
something is going on there for sure,unless the shock is valved wrong it can have an effect too

[wilwilbur]

The front shock doesn't limit drop at all. I did run into a problem with hanging on upper four bar I lenghtened it and it reaches the full drop. The front shock valving is a 0 on rebound 5 on compression The behind shock is a 14 on compression 3 on extension. The rear shock is a double adjustable jri. And the front is a non adjustable with a Schrader I adjust the gas with. The front shock I run 50 pounds the rear is 150.

[Matt49]

At least for the purpose of this discussion, I think it's important we establish the definition of "traction shock". That means a lot of different things depending on whom you ask.
I personally don't believe that any shock in front can enhance the ability of the LR to climb. There is no such thing as "0" valving rebound even with 200 PSI gas. I think the fools gold is that the shock in front holds the car up on entry and provides better LR thrust from the center off due to this. Just my opinion....good discussion brewing here.

[grt74]

there are a ton of factors here in the setup,I've seen 300 psi to 15 psi in the lrf shock,the rear shock I've seen as much as 200 psi,all i am saying is you can have a ton of forward drive with a shock(so called traction shock)but its all in your complete setup,another thing that racers get caught up in is the name of a shock,to me its just that, a name,my dyno #'s are what I'm looking for along with what I'm trying to do,i do agree with matt that there is no such thing as a zero valving shock,all shocks will have at least a small amount of resistance
with all that said if you put a shock on the lrf on a clamp bracket ,the car will get on the bars very fast and traction up quicker,again this all depends on the shock build
now with it on the birdcage,its not a noticeable difference(or huge difference)as far as the car jumping up on the bars,that is unless there is a ton of gas pressure,its just more of a fine tuning thing and does help if your a gas dumper,again this depends on the shock build
now for the answer of does a shock in the front give more traction,to me no,its just a timing devise,even when used on the clamp bracket,but the clamp bracket is the fastest timing of all of these,but keep in mind the torque(or twist)in the rearend is a factor here too
hope I've helped some in my explanation,there are probably some other terms or maybe a better way to explain it,but that is my experience
some call it traction,some forward drive,to me a shock is what it is,a timing devise,if your looking for traction your looking in the wrong place,now if your wanting to get traction quicker or to slow it down,now we are in the shock area
so in reading your post it sounds like you have slowed it down in some way or it has limited your lr drop in some way

[rakracing]

I've ran the traction shock on the birdcage and on a clamped bracket as your asking, was told to move it there by grt for more forward drive the theory was the shock helped put lr drive because it worked with the 5th coil when the rear twisted, it seemed to help a little but also seemed to drop more at entry then when on the cage. my overrail grt I had to run a traction shock because it really bounce around, but my underrail acually worked better with out a shock at all.

[gatorade]

okay, i believe that i can speak intelligently on this topic as i own a 2014 lazer and recently started a shock business. I have spent (last night i was tinkering with an integra lrf until 1am) 100's of hours in the shop analyzing what different brands of shocks do with different corners of the cars. In my opinion we as a racing community really need to stop talking with catch words like "traction shock" or "tie down" because much like a valving code that say "3-8" this could mean a million different things on a graph. Every racer needs to get graphs from there shock guy know where each shock is at the 0,3 and 10 inch/sec point on a graph. Racing is constantly improving in technology and this is just one area racers need to spend some time educating themselves. If you shock guy won't work with you on this, get a different shock guy.

Now to the topic at hand, a shock on the front can limit birdcage wrap a minimal amount, this will decrease some drive in given situations. HOWEVER, I agree 100 percent with the what has been illustrated on here by MB, Matt, and grt that it is almost negligible and that it also will never "pop" the car up, a shock is still a timing device. The gas pressure argument to me is a little comical because it equates to rod pressure, that's it. If you jack a bunch of gas into your shock thinking it will hold the car up more or the speed it gets back on the bars your have a serious misunderstanding how shocks work.

When clamping the shock to the rearend, you do get full birdcage wrap, so affectively you maintain the same drive as having no shock in front... the trick is getting the shock valved correctly to delay the car from dropping when letting off the gas. I believe this can be done but you need to have a shock built with an increased amount of "zero point" or lots of low speed so the shock will hold the car the instant it tries to drop. Lazer shock package isn't really conducive to this because they do not build a ton of zero into the left side shocks. They do this because they want you to run without anything in front an to not limit the birdcage rotation into the spring they keep the zero number on the lr low then ramp up the valving in the 5-10" range... Is this wrong? No, just wanting to illustrate to you the issue you might run into if you move the shock and are disappointed with the result. Jim and BRC know what they are doing, you just have to make sure your shocks allign with your setup package

Onto matt49 point that a shock wont hold the car up on entry... i disagree, you can build the zero number as such to hold the car the instant it changes direction.... Shock guys will argue the speed of the shaft at this given point (0in/sec, 10in/sec, 50inc/sec)... but i believe (an this is my opinion based upon what my a$$ feels when i am driving nikki lauda "God gave me an okay mind, but a great a$$ i can feel anything in a car") that if you keep the zero number up, you can hold the car for a given period on entry.

[Matt49]

okay, i believe that i can speak intelligently on this topic as i own a 2014 lazer and recently started a shock business. I have spent (last night i was tinkering with an integra lrf until 1am) 100's of hours in the shop analyzing what different brands of shocks do with different corners of the cars. In my opinion we as a racing community really need to stop talking with catch words like "traction shock" or "tie down" because much like a valving code that say "3-8" this could mean a million different things on a graph. Every racer needs to get graphs from there shock guy know where each shock is at the 0,3 and 10 inch/sec point on a graph. Racing is constantly improving in technology and this is just one area racers need to spend some time educating themselves. If you shock guy won't work with you on this, get a different shock guy.

Now to the topic at hand, a shock on the front can limit birdcage wrap a minimal amount, this will decrease some drive in given situations. HOWEVER, I agree 100 percent with the what has been illustrated on here by MB, Matt, and grt that it is almost negligible and that it also will never "pop" the car up, a shock is still a timing device. The gas pressure argument to me is a little comical because it equates to rod pressure, that's it. If you jack a bunch of gas into your shock thinking it will hold the car up more or the speed it gets back on the bars your have a serious misunderstanding how shocks work.

When clamping the shock to the rearend, you do get full birdcage wrap, so affectively you maintain the same drive as having no shock in front... the trick is getting the shock valved correctly to delay the car from dropping when letting off the gas. I believe this can be done but you need to have a shock built with an increased amount of "zero point" or lots of low speed so the shock will hold the car the instant it tries to drop. Lazer shock package isn't really conducive to this because they do not build a ton of zero into the left side shocks. They do this because they want you to run without anything in front an to not limit the birdcage rotation into the spring they keep the zero number on the lr low then ramp up the valving in the 5-10" range... Is this wrong? No, just wanting to illustrate to you the issue you might run into if you move the shock and are disappointed with the result. Jim and BRC know what they are doing, you just have to make sure your shocks allign with your setup package

Onto matt49 point that a shock wont hold the car up on entry... i disagree, you can build the zero number as such to hold the car the instant it changes direction.... Shock guys will argue the speed of the shaft at this given point (0in/sec, 10in/sec, 50inc/sec)... but i believe (an this is my opinion based upon what my a$$ feels when i am driving nikki lauda "God gave me an okay mind, but a great a$$ i can feel anything in a car") that if you keep the zero number up, you can hold the car for a given period on entry.

Great points. I didn't mean to say the the shock can't hold the car up but I can see in reading it again how it sounded that way.
What I was saying when I said, "There is no such thing as "0" valving rebound even with 200 PSI gas. I think the fools gold is that the shock in front holds the car up on entry and provides better LR thrust from the center off due to this. Just my opinion....good discussion brewing here."
Worded differently, it isn't really the low rebound or high gas pressure that GET the car up on the bars faster but rather it is already there due to the fact that the shock held that corner up.

[powerslide]

So a digressive LR will be better if we are trying to get that 0 number as high as we can.

[powerslide]

Any bilstein guys here tell me how much compression at 3inches is possible with standard bilstein pistons?

[gatorade]

i would, personally, build it with the diggressive model in mind...I would construct the 0 inch number based on your application (track size, motor, tire etc... not much difference, but belleville,il is different then eldora) I try to digress the shock at 10 inch so it would intersect with the "shock in the spring" at that point on the graph... Just my personal opninion, its what i would build for my self, there are alot of shock guys that could argue theory with me, but i have had success this way.

Zero point is really about bleed and shim preload and not so much about piston and shim stack design (which dictates more of the linear/digressive characteristics) so saying it has to be digressive is not entirely true... Big numbers are harder to hit sometimes on different pistons/platforms, but you really should be able to get in the ball park with either

And to say "as high as we can" is also a little over the top, we are still building timing devices not solid rods. :)

[gatorade]

cob piston? i have never built one over 850@0, but i dont think that it is out of the question, Cob deal is still really trick

[powerslide]

We dont have a COB at this time but have considered purchasing one. We just have standard off the shelf bilstein stuff. We have bought up alot of shocks and just use whats good off them.

Are you saying with the COB you havent been over 850, or with regular digressive or linear piston you havent?

We dont have a high dollar dyno so its tough to say for sure where we are but i'm thinking in the 500 range at 3inches. I have a guy near me i've worked with we plan on taking some stuff to to get a better idea of how mean we are getting them.

[Bcollins82]

If you want to slow down shaft speed by taking it off the BC, why not just run the shock on top of the LR axle like a Pierce? If you have it up front on a clamp bracket it will take some of your "crutch" away when you get out of the throttle because of axle wrap or "unwrap" lol That is right where you are wanting to hold the car up by your description.

[gatorade]

Powerslide- get a cob piston for it, it's just easy to build numbers with the by pass plate and spring that is in them. As a shock guy, the time I have in monkeying with numbers with a standard digressive piston to get it right (and I might not be able to) it would be more cost effective to throw a cob piston in it. Just my 2 cents... You may be surprised too, unless this shock is really old it probably has cob piston in it just no bypass plate

Dirtracer9x- I will take that as a compliment... My shock platform is a lot different than most I try to educate the racer as much as possible to open up lines of communication and to further there capability to tune there car. If that means I lose business get info stolen or get blasted for what I don't know so be it... All my guys will know where they stand. Guys make good living promoting magic in a bottle, I have always been a better racer when I have went about it quantitatively so that's what I do with my customers... Will it work? heck if I know, I have boxes of stuff show up all the time... Is it stupid, maybe but it's different... Another thing is that racers usually all have the jest of what to do.... I haven't seen a LM rf yet that hasn't had some form of tie down in it. What separates the pact is proper applicationand that is an art!

Bcollins- great point, that how ever does take a different length shock and a bump stop to cushion a big fall off the bars... But in theory makes perfect sense

[powerslide]

Thanks Gatorade I am positive we do not have a single shock with a cob. If you are a dealer and can get what we need to try it pm me. Thanks for the discussion