CT 525 Late models. Where do they belong?

[Skinny64]

I wanted to get the forums opinion on this. Where do you guys think the 525 Late models belong? My local track thinks they belong with our steel head guys. The 525's are stinking up the show pretty good week after week. The steel head cars can run 362ci max and 23 degree only. Weight penalty for roller cam, dry sump, and pop up pistons. I'm seeing these 525 ' s out run open motors at some tracks and I'm sure alot has to do with over powering the track but I still think the 525 cars belong in a super class with some weight breaks and possibly a big spoiler. What do you think?

[j1s]

Here is how it should work:
Crate vs. Crate
Spec vs. Spec
525 vs. 525
Super vs. Super
Any engine (no spoiler breaks or weight breaks) with late model chassis and body vs. Super

Next question you should ask is; "when they run street stocks against Super Late models how can we hadicapp the field"?

The have classes for a reason. The reason is so drivers/teams can find a class that fits there budget and race.

[W2Racing09]

Here is how it should work:
Crate vs. Crate
Spec vs. Spec
525 vs. 525
Super vs. Super
Any engine (no spoiler breaks or weight breaks) with late model chassis and body vs. Super

Next question you should ask is; "when they run street stocks against Super Late models how can we hadicapp the field"?

The have classes for a reason. The reason is so drivers/teams can find a class that fits there budget and race.

I disagree, I think adapting to the times is the key to allowing dirt racing to survive.

The CT525 is a viable option for the SLM division, just as the 604 Crate is a viable option in the LLM/Steel Block division. Neither will be totally up to speed without some breaks. Nobody is saying they should add 200lbs to the SLM cars, just that the CT525 cars should get to weigh less. The average fan will not know the difference between the engines, but they will notice the extra cars it could potentially produce.

Mel Minnick runs at Roaring Knob with a CT525. He gets a 100 lb weight break (2150 instead of 2250) along with additional spoiler height and side spoiler, optional spillboard on the nose and 10" max setback.

He finished second his first time out this year and had a win last year. The fans do not suffer as a result of this rule, and if more tracks embraced it more drivers would go this route and more people would make the decision to run SLM over LLM and Crate which would be good for the division.

I've attached a picture of his car so that you can see it does not look like the batmobile as everyone says cars do when they get the big spoiler.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Aluminium Block]

Here is how it should work: Crate vs. Crate Spec vs. Spec 525 vs. 525 Super vs. Super Any engine (no spoiler breaks or weight breaks) with late model chassis and body vs. Super Next question you should ask is; "when they run street stocks against Super Late models how can we hadicapp the field"? The have classes for a reason. The reason is so drivers/teams can find a class that fits there budget and race. We do not need 4 classes of late models! These cars can be mixed together with spoilers and weights. That has been proven. As for the original subject, the 525 in a limited late class would put an aluminum block motor in that class. Not sure if it belongs there. Definitely works with the Supers.

[W2Racing09]

We do not need 4 classes of late models! These cars can be mixed together with spoilers and weights. That has been proven. As for the original subject, the 525 in a limited late class would put an aluminum block motor in that class. Not sure if it belongs there. Definitely works with the Supers.

Agreed, to me there is not reason to have more than two classes.

604/602 Crate
SLM (With CT525 Option)

I can't figure out why anyone bothers running Steel Blocks. The motors cost a lot (more than crates) and the pay is usually less. Those with a Steel Block car could just as easily afford a CT525 to run in the SLM class (and get more to finish last in SLM than you would to finish 5th in the Steel Block class, not that they would finish last).

Thanks,
Jeff.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I disagree, I think adapting to the times is the key to allowing dirt racing to survive.

The CT525 is a viable option for the SLM division, just as the 604 Crate is a viable option in the LLM/Steel Block division. Neither will be totally up to speed without some breaks. Nobody is saying they should add 200lbs to the SLM cars, just that the CT525 cars should get to weigh less. The average fan will not know the difference between the engines, but they will notice the extra cars it could potentially produce.

Mel Minnick runs at Roaring Knob with a CT525. He gets a 100 lb weight break (2150 instead of 2250) along with additional spoiler height and side spoiler, optional spillboard on the nose and 10" max setback.

He finished second his first time out this year and had a win last year. The fans do not suffer as a result of this rule, and if more tracks embraced it more drivers would go this route and more people would make the decision to run SLM over LLM and Crate which would be good for the division.

I've attached a picture of his car so that you can see it does not look like the batmobile as everyone says cars do when they get the big spoiler.

Thanks,
Jeff.

That is way too much help for an all aluminum engine that makes respectable power, at most tracks.

[Bubstr]

Here is how it should work:
Crate vs. Crate
Spec vs. Spec
525 vs. 525
Super vs. Super
Any engine (no spoiler breaks or weight breaks) with late model chassis and body vs. Super

Next question you should ask is; "when they run street stocks against Super Late models how can we hadicapp the field"?

The have classes for a reason. The reason is so drivers/teams can find a class that fits there budget and race.

X 2 There is no adequate way to handicap different rules packages. The promoters need to decide what classes they wish to run and maybe collaborate with surrounding tracks so they have enough of each class to put on a decent show. Small field of cars for a class, is no good for the fan, racer or track. Just too many classes now. It waters down the fields and limits where the racers can run in some cases. We need fewer classes and standardized rules.

[W2Racing09]

That is way too much help for an all aluminum engine that makes respectable power, at most tracks.

I disagree, Mel Minnick jr. is an experienced racer who has been very competitive. He has not dominated since going the CT525 route. As I said he has a 2nd place finish this season, and to my knowledge one win last season and mostly top fives otherwise. There are other drivers all over the country running this motor with the SLM division and I've yet to hear of anyone rattling off 10 wins in a row or anything.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Clayton_Wetter]

And of course you need to make the track as dryslick as possible, to slow the SLM's down and create false equality!!

[W2Racing09]

And of course you need to make the track as dryslick as possible, to slow the SLM's down and create false equality!!

I think you can prepare the track as is currently. Tracks are different every week. Some times it may produce an advantage for the Crate and other days it may produce an advantage for the Open Motor. That creates parity, and that is one thing Late Model racing is sorely lacking in most places.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[fastford]

Here is how it should work:
Crate vs. Crate
Spec vs. Spec
525 vs. 525
Super vs. Super
Any engine (no spoiler breaks or weight breaks) with late model chassis and body vs. Super

Next question you should ask is; "when they run street stocks against Super Late models how can we hadicapp the field"?

The have classes for a reason. The reason is so drivers/teams can find a class that fits there budget and race.

this is how I feel as well, but here is a thought, lets have one crate class, let the 525s weigh 2600lbs and 8in spoiler, then let the 604s weigh 2400lbs and a 10in spoiler and the 602s weigh2200lbs and a 12in spoiler. so there you have it, a super class where you run what you brung and no special breaks, then you have the crate class where all the crates are treated fairly with breaks and so forth and a limited class for people like me that still want to build there own stuff, wouldn't this make everyone happy? how ever if you did this and a 602 got lucky and won a race, I would bet the 525s would start crying about to much of a advantage given to the 602s...

[GRT32]

2600 pds is not only crazy it is dangerous. You never hear the open motors cry when the track is hammerdown but let it get slick enough for a small motor to win and the world has came to an end. For slm to survive the promotors better give enough to the 525 motors to make them very competitive.

[25drtrkr]

Down here in the deep South, the 525's run with the steel block llm's. Our steel blocks are allowed to run the Brodix spec alum head. The 525's have to add 50lbs in front of bellhousing. From what I've seen, their equal as far as performance, but the steel blocks cost TWICE as much.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I disagree, Mel Minnick jr. is an experienced racer who has been very competitive. He has not dominated since going the CT525 route. As I said he has a 2nd place finish this season, and to my knowledge one win last season and mostly top fives otherwise. There are other drivers all over the country running this motor with the SLM division and I've yet to hear of anyone rattling off 10 wins in a row or anything.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I have watched 525s win with no help or maybe weight help. All that aero help is ridiculous.

[Okfine]

I disagree, I think adapting to the times is the key to allowing dirt racing to survive.

The CT525 is a viable option for the SLM division, just as the 604 Crate is a viable option in the LLM/Steel Block division. Neither will be totally up to speed without some breaks. Nobody is saying they should add 200lbs to the SLM cars, just that the CT525 cars should get to weigh less. The average fan will not know the difference between the engines, but they will notice the extra cars it could potentially produce.

Mel Minnick runs at Roaring Knob with a CT525. He gets a 100 lb weight break (2150 instead of 2250) along with additional spoiler height and side spoiler, optional spillboard on the nose and 10" max setback.

He finished second his first time out this year and had a win last year. The fans do not suffer as a result of this rule, and if more tracks embraced it more drivers would go this route and more people would make the decision to run SLM over LLM and Crate which would be good for the division.

I've attached a picture of his car so that you can see it does not look like the batmobile as everyone says cars do when they get the big spoiler.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I agree with this post...........did your friend ever run an open motor, and if so, how did he do vs. the slm guys , was he a factor with equal power plant?

The reason I'm asking, is that some guys just can't get a handle on the open motor, but do very well with the crate or 525 option.

And I have to ask, is that a picture josh Richards on his wall???? Couldn't tell because it was a little blurry.

[fastford]

2600 pds is not only crazy it is dangerous. You never hear the open motors cry when the track is hammerdown but let it get slick enough for a small motor to win and the world has came to an end. For slm to survive the promotors better give enough to the 525 motors to make them very competitive.

yea , lets all kiss gms azz and help them sell engines, I hear there about broke again any way, and by the way east Alabama has had a limited class with 2600 min for years, I guess they like living dangerously , but you missed my point , let the crates race crates, if the supers and limited fall to the wayside, then so be it but I would bet the crates go first..

[Skinny64]

I also forgot to mention that once the 525 was entered into the steel head class they started qualifying to set the field for the feature. Now they are up front before the feature even starts. You guys have some good input on this. I just don't understand some of the post that say you could easily afford a 525 if you run steel head now? If a guy has been loyal to his track year after year running steel head how is it that you think they can just pull out a $10,000 motor and sit it on the ground to go buy a $9,000 525 to please the track and be competitive? I just think it's a stupid idea.

[Drop Shock]

Zack Dohm's wearing most of the super late guys in the Ohio Valley out with his. Even on a hammer down track if the straightaways are short enough. Put them in there own class? That would be good way to kill them off. The appeal of these motors is that there are no freshen up costs, and they are an advantage when the track slows down. Really don't know why more people aren't getting these motors.

[Drop Shock]

yea , lets all kiss gms azz and help them sell engines, I hear there about broke again any way, and by the way east Alabama has had a limited class with 2600 min for years, I guess they like living dangerously , but you missed my point , let the crates race crates, if the supers and limited fall to the wayside, then so be it but I would bet the crates go first..

What is the harm in letting a 604 run with a limited and a 525 run with an open motor? Do you scold people who save money at the grocery store too?

[Skinny64]

Correct Drop Shock.... but key word in your post was Super late. Not Steel Head.... 525 belongs in a Super class. imo....

[GRT32]

The 525s run with the steel heads around here and win very few races

[poolcuemaster]

They have never even been close to the steel head limited's here in the carolinas and the fuel series 525's is a 1 and done for my racing group. Went to the first one at Carolina speedway last year and it was my last one follow the leader no passing. Spend my money on limiteds or supers.--Leonard

[fastford]

What is the harm in letting a 604 run with a limited and a 525 run with an open motor? Do you scold people who save money at the grocery store too?

not a thing, as long as no one gets any special privileges, if your gone enter your crate engine in a class other than your class , then you should abide by the same rules as every one else in that class, no special breaks, and if you don't like it STAY IN A CRATE CLASS..

[25drtrkr]

2 questions: 1) How much hp does a fresh 525 make?, 2) In your area, how much hp does a steel block? In my area, a steel block, flat tappet, 23' heads, wet sump, makes about 600. That would be a top of the line costing around $25k.

[fastford]

I think 25k is a little extreme, I can make 550 for under 8k , which is probably comparable to the 525 hp wise , the problem is my engine weighs 150lbs or more than the 525, if you don't think that's a huge advantage in the slick, then we don't need to discuss any farther..

[25drtrkr]

I think 25k is a little extreme, I can make 550 for under 8k , which is probably comparable to the 525 hp wise , the problem is my engine weighs 150lbs or more than the 525, if you don't think that's a huge advantage in the slick, then we don't need to discuss any farther..

The well funded teams around here are spending that (from certain engine builders in Ky). Also, they are using the Brodix alum spec head.

[fastford]

here its all steel, now my spec head engine with roller is making over 600, but it has to run super, and has to pull 50lbs more than the 525, still 75lbs more up front though and that's fine, but there's no way a regular basis, an all steel can compete with an all aluminum when hp is equal. if you took bloomquist,s all aluminum out and put in an all steel macking the same hp, you can bet, he wouldn't be in the race.

[25drtrkr]

here its all steel, now my spec head engine with roller is making over 600, but it has to run super, and has to pull 50lbs more than the 525, still 75lbs more up front though and that's fine, but there's no way a regular basis, an all steel can compete with an all aluminum when hp is equal. if you took bloomquist,s all aluminum out and put in an all steel macking the same hp, you can bet, he wouldn't be in the race.

Schlieper ran awfully well several years ago at East Bay with an all steel motor. If my memory is correct, Lucas changed the weight rule the next year.

[fastford]

yea, seems like I remember that, which on a tacky , hooked up track, it very possible, but in the slick with the shocks and suspension we have today, weight and weight placement means a lot more than it use to.

[slmcrewchief99]

If I remember right this SAME kind of question was asked a month or so back. Still going to get the same answers. Crate cars are gonna whine that they can't keep up with a super. Well guess what. That's why they are a "limited" late model. If you want to run your 525 with us supers then so be it. Happens quite often around here. Even have a few 604's tag the back too. Just quit whining that you can't keep up and want special privilages. YOU are asking to run with us remember. We aren't dropping back a class to run with 525's. If you don't think that big spoiler and a weight break gives an advantage, then you need to stick to bowling. If you want to step up and play, then play.

[W2Racing09]

If I remember right this SAME kind of question was asked a month or so back. Still going to get the same answers. Crate cars are gonna whine that they can't keep up with a super. Well guess what. That's why they are a "limited" late model. If you want to run your 525 with us supers then so be it. Happens quite often around here. Even have a few 604's tag the back too. Just quit whining that you can't keep up and want special privilages. YOU are asking to run with us remember. We aren't dropping back a class to run with 525's. If you don't think that big spoiler and a weight break gives an advantage, then you need to stick to bowling. If you want to step up and play, then play.

You think the big spoiler and weight break gives the advantage to a crate car over a super? I don't think there are many that would agree with that. There are several tracks allowing the CT525 engine with weight breaks and aero benefits but I don't see them cleaning the floor with the open motor cars. In fact more often than not they only pick up wins when the track is super slick.

I don't think it is any type of advantage to get a weight break, and nobody as asking you to change your Super at all. Just let the CT525 engines run with their rules package. If you are arguing that it shouldn't happen you have already lost because it happens every week at several tracks all over the country.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[slmcrewchief99]

Yes I know for a fact that spoiler, weight break, and engine setback is an advantage. I'm not new to racing. I've been here LONG before the inception of the Communist GM crate class started. I don't care if they are cleaning the floor or not. The fact is you are wanting to run a crate with us and give YOU a break. If you need all those "crutches" to make you fast then run the crate class with all the other crates. If you want to run with a super, then step up and run like a super.

[hygty]

ct 525 run pretty good with supers around UMP as long as its a bull ring

[hygty]

lucas and woo will not allow the ct 525 run can we ask why

[Drop Shock]

lucas and woo will not allow the ct 525 run can we ask why

Coil packs

[fastford]

Yes I know for a fact that spoiler, weight break, and engine setback is an advantage. I'm not new to racing. I've been here LONG before the inception of the Communist GM crate class started. I don't care if they are cleaning the floor or not. The fact is you are wanting to run a crate with us and give YOU a break. If you need all those "crutches" to make you fast then run the crate class with all the other crates. If you want to run with a super, then step up and run like a super.

you are 100% correct in my book, the only thing I would add to your comment in another post above about running them with the limiteds is the 525s should have to add enough weight in front of motor plate to be fair to the steel engines . also to the ones on here that think weight breaks and weight placement does not matter obviously has not done much with a late model, especially in the slick.

[FlatTire]

So to the haters that think a 12" spoiler is too much downforce, then what about the added drag it produces? How come none of you ever mention that?

And have any of you sat down and figured out the power/weight ratios of these engines before you started pecking away at the keyboard? I'm just wondering how you guys formulate your opinions?

Here are some common weights/power numbers for these engines:

Engine: 602-604-525-Spec-Open
HP :350-400-525-615-800
Weight:2200-2300-2250-2200-2300
HP/LBS:0.16-0.17-0.23-0.28-0.35

I've raced against all of these engine types before. Every one of them has a time and a place. Just like a shock.....you need the right shock for the right track, you need the right engine for the right track. Also, the torque/hp curves of these engines have a lot to do with how they perform on different conditions.

There was a race in Lousiana a few weeks ago and there was basically no difference in the lap times between the fastestd spec car and the fastest crate. With my spec motor I've been beat by crate cars and 525's. I've also beat open motor cars. The only place the open motors have a true advantage is on the big tracks(4/10mile, 1/2mile) but thats not to say races can't be won with less.

Didn't Steve Francis come from the rear to the front at East Bay this year on 7 cylinders? He would have been down around 100hp. William Thomas and Ronnie Johnson have won against open motors utilizing far less.

If you can't hook it up then its no good to you! I think most are too quick to blame lack of power rather than driver/setup ability as why they got out ran.

[W2Racing09]

Yes I know for a fact that spoiler, weight break, and engine setback is an advantage. I'm not new to racing. I've been here LONG before the inception of the Communist GM crate class started. I don't care if they are cleaning the floor or not. The fact is you are wanting to run a crate with us and give YOU a break. If you need all those "crutches" to make you fast then run the crate class with all the other crates. If you want to run with a super, then step up and run like a super.

It is an advantage over having nothing, but it certainly does not give them an edge over an open motor car. If it did then guys like Bloomquist, or Richards would be running them at Eldora or any other non WoO or Lucas series race. They do not have an advantage over Open cars no matter what you give them for breaks.

If you want the class to survive there needs to be a way to enter it at a price point lower than $20,000 and sustain it at a price point less than $2-$3k every year for a rebuild. I especially can't understand the push back when nobody is asking you to change your car. It is simply an issue of giving another type of car a chance to run at the back in all but the most slick conditions or on smaller tracks. You can see the problems, with several tracks having dropped the SLM division in my area, and others (like Potomac and Winchester) getting 15 cars for a $3k to win event. Are you telling me that nothing needs to be done to prop the division back up?

It probably wouldn't even take hold in the South where there are plenty of CT525 divisions racing. Here in the North East and in the Central States there is no CT525 series, I'm not aware of any place you can run the motor other than in an SLM.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[j1s]

When I was kid I had shirt that said "If you can't un with the BIG DAWGS then stay on the porch". I guess that kinda stuck with me, because I feel the exact same way today. Or as Rick Flair says "To be the man you gotta beat the man, and you gotta walk down that aisle stylin' and profilin' ". Face it, crates and 525s ain't stylin' and profilin', but Supers are.

[W2Racing09]

When I was kid I had shirt that said "If you can't un with the BIG DAWGS then stay on the porch". I guess that kinda stuck with me, because I feel the exact same way today. Or as Rick Flair says "To be the man you gotta beat the man, and you gotta walk down that aisle stylin' and profilin' ". Face it, crates and 525s ain't stylin' and profilin', but Supers are.

Serious question, have you ever witnessed a CT525 in a race?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Bubstr]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

[W2Racing09]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

That argument I can't stand. The cost is certainly an advantage, but using that argument I might as well not race because that is a huge cost savings over racing. Nobody will consider it if it does not get breaks to be competitive.

You would expect someone to buy a $10k motor, and a $20k car to put it in and then happily wave at the leaders as they get lapped for the third time and say well at least I didn't spend as much as them... No they will just quit racing.

If it does not have any effect on the other cars in any way then there is no reason not to give the CT525 some breaks to allow it to compete. Nobody is asking for it to be dominant, just for it to have a chance. If there is a way to get the CT525 to be able to run similar lap times to the Open LM then what is the harm in it?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

The advantage a 525 gets, has already been claimed in the cost of purchase and operating expense. If they wish to run with the open late model, let them run, as long as they meet the rules. There needs to be a start up class, but there doesn't need to be 5 of them. If you lump all the start up classes together and handicap, it opens a big can of worms for tech and the ability for racers to race at more than one track.

I feel, we have too many classes. Hornets, street stock super stock, A mod, B mod Econo mod, mini mod, big block mod, touring mod, UMP mod, super mod, limited LM, steel block LM, steel head LM, crate LM, 525 crate LM, IMCA LM, SLM, open LM and use these tires here but those there, these shocks here and those there, chips here and no chips there. None of them are cheap and a 10 car field is a bummer.

Over the years racers and touring groups and tracks, have got together and standardized rules so racers can run anywhere. It might be time for that to happen again.

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

[hucktyson]

Jeff the problem is that if guys don't have money to rebuild the motors they already have where would they get the 12k to get a 525 in their car ???

[fastford]

So to the haters that think a 12" spoiler is too much downforce, then what about the added drag it produces? How come none of you ever mention that?

And have any of you sat down and figured out the power/weight ratios of these engines before you started pecking away at the keyboard? I'm just wondering how you guys formulate your opinions?

Here are some common weights/power numbers for these engines:

Engine: 602-604-525-Spec-Open
HP :350-400-525-615-800
Weight:2200-2300-2250-2200-2300
HP/LBS:0.16-0.17-0.23-0.28-0.35

I've raced against all of these engine types before. Every one of them has a time and a place. Just like a shock.....you need the right shock for the right track, you need the right engine for the right track. Also, the torque/hp curves of these engines have a lot to do with how they perform on different conditions.

There was a race in Lousiana a few weeks ago and there was basically no difference in the lap times between the fastestd spec car and the fastest crate. With my spec motor I've been beat by crate cars and 525's. I've also beat open motor cars. The only place the open motors have a true advantage is on the big tracks(4/10mile, 1/2mile) but thats not to say races can't be won with less.

Didn't Steve Francis come from the rear to the front at East Bay this year on 7 cylinders? He would have been down around 100hp. William Thomas and Ronnie Johnson have won against open motors utilizing far less.

If you can't hook it up then its no good to you! I think most are too quick to blame lack of power rather than driver/setup ability as why they got out ran.

if you were running the supr spec then of course your gone get beat, 60cc heads and flat top pistons and steel block are no match for a 525 , plus you have to pull more weight, whats fair about that? or maybe you love these generic box engines so much you don't care. I am a spec motor person and switched to the sas spec where I can at least run a dome piston, but still have more front end weight and have to pull 50 more lbs. and your example of francis at east bay means nothing to me, an all aluminum engine going from 850 t0 750hp probable helped him. my opinion of the 525 is yes they can run super if they want but I stand by my idea of no special privileges , I don't consider that hating, but being fair, kind of sounds like your hating on the supers , the ones that can afford to buy an open engine and the ones like me that are loyal to my brand and have to build my own, so take it how ever you want. oh, and in my opinion, what happened to asphalt short track racing was a crate engine, example ASA .

[W2Racing09]

Jeff the problem is that if guys don't have money to rebuild the motors they already have where would they get the 12k to get a 525 in their car ???

I think this would be director more as a cost effective way for new people to enter the sport. If a current driver is tapped out to the point that they cannot afford to refresh their motor then there is not much they can do at that point aside from moving down to 604 Crates or something. Racing is expensive, I think the CT525 program could help to mitigate some of the costs, but it definitely wont make it cheap.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

if you were running the supr spec then of course your gone get beat, 60cc heads and flat top pistons and steel block are no match for a 525 , plus you have to pull more weight, whats fair about that? or maybe you love these generic box engines so much you don't care. I am a spec motor person and switched to the sas spec where I can at least run a dome piston, but still have more front end weight and have to pull 50 more lbs. and your example of francis at east bay means nothing to me, an all aluminum engine going from 850 t0 750hp probable helped him. my opinion of the 525 is yes they can run super if they want but I stand by my idea of no special privileges , I don't consider that hating, but being fair, kind of sounds like your hating on the supers , the ones that can afford to buy an open engine and the ones like me that are loyal to my brand and have to build my own, so take it how ever you want. oh, and in my opinion, what happened to asphalt short track racing was a crate engine, example ASA .

On your ASA comment: You can make the same argument about open motors. Hav-A-Tampa, Three State Flyers, and other open series which fell by the wayside. Lack of support happens everywhere. It is probably more difficult to start an all crate series up, you are asking people to invest in a car that they can only race in one place. Aside from that we are not saying start a CT525 series (although that has already been done in your area) but rather to include the CT525 cars in as a more affordable option for the hyper-expensive Super Late Modesl that currently exist.

How is it not fair? If you take a 500hp motor, a 600 hp motor and a 800 hp motor and run them all under the same rules the 800 hp motor is going to win 9.9/10 times. That is not competition, that is the 800 hp cars racing and avoiding some moving roadblocks at the same time. There need to be some additional changes made to allow the 500hp car and the 600hp car to race with the 800hp car. That is just how it is. If you don't do that you are going to have a division of 500hp cars with 10 cars, a division of 600hp cars with 10 cars and a division of 800hp cars with 10 cars. Three low car counts instead of one race with 30 cars.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[fastford]

sorry jeff, you don't have the credentials yet to argue with me about this subject , your making a hypothesis's, which is an educated guess, when you have some real world experience in DLM racing , check back with me. and by the way, I think there are more super series now than there was during the havatampa day.

[taylor2727]

My question or problem is when someone takes the 525 rebuilds it and now has 700+ and is claiming they still have a 525 and still deserve the breaks u want them to have

[fastford]

oh no, are you saying a crate racer would cheat????? lol

[Bubstr]

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

The simple fact is, they are not a open motor and if someone wants to save money and run with the open LMs, They should be welcome, as long as they fit the rules. Do you think that guy that paid 4X as much for a engine, cares if they want a weight break, more spoiler or even a head start? They belong with the crate racers, not with the big boys. The big boys series aren't going to tear down a crate to see if it was legal. They're all legal. It's open motor. That's why it's the premier class with largest pay outs. It's get tough or get out. This is one of the few sports, that Joe Blow can come to any event and be allowed to compete in the top division. Try that in any other sport. It isn't going to happen. Try taking a Nag to the Kentucky Derby and talking them into allowing you to use drugs to make it fast. The purse money would go away PDQ, even though the Nag was cheaper.

[Clayton_Wetter]

http://www.sharingmachine.com/prodimages/seal-litebox.jpg

[Matt49]

Scenario: An average Joe driver like me is offered two cars to choose from to race on a shiny black slick race track. Car A has a crate motor and 12" spoiler. Car B has an open motor and an 8" spoiler. The driver that chooses car A will be much better off.
The reason touring professionals would never take this package to the race track is for several reasons:
1) They are professional drivers and know how to manage the power in slick conditions
2) They are professional drivers and know how to manage traction without a 12" spoiler
3) They qualify on tacky tracks and you need all the power you can get in those conditions

[Clayton_Wetter]

18Fan{quote}

I grew up in Iowa and spent many hours during the summer driving a water truck around a race track. My dad, brother and I would put water on the track in the evening twice during the week and then spend all day Friday watering for Friday night races. If there was rain during the week that might alter those plans but that track was never dusty. I also spent a lot of Saturday nights watching sprint cars in Knoxville and when you walked to the pits after the races your feet stuck to the track like glue. I will say the clay content in the track has a lot to do with it's ability to hold moisture but is not an excuse for a dusty track. I always heard that Knoxville gets clay dug up from the bottom of the Mississippi river. Anyways here is to wet / tacky racetracks.

[W2Racing09]

My question or problem is when someone takes the 525 rebuilds it and now has 700+ and is claiming they still have a 525 and still deserve the breaks u want them to have

If you rebuild it then it wont have the seal, if it does not have the seals it does not get the weight break or other benefits.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

sorry jeff, you don't have the credentials yet to argue with me about this subject , your making a hypothesis's, which is an educated guess, when you have some real world experience in DLM racing , check back with me. and by the way, I think there are more super series now than there was during the havatampa day.

Good strategy for not losing an argument,

I don't really need to prove anything to you. I already know the CT525 can keep up with an SLM with the correct weight breaks and aero breaks. Seems there are many tracks that understand that considering they run by the rules I'm arguing for.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[hygty]

the ct 525 can run very competitive in fact lucas and woo outlawed said they were uinfair advantage with the coil pack bloomer won a race with it the ct525 runs great on the 1/5 th mile to 1/3 mile bullrings get any bigger and they are not plus they can run on pump gas

[ClampedUp]

If you rebuild it then it wont have the seal, if it does not have the seals it does not get the weight break or other benefits.

Thanks,
Jeff.

You can buy GM factory seals from various places.
Stan Lester from Fastrak swore up and down when he started Fastrak there was no way Joe racer or Joe engine shop could obtain factory seals.
He was proven wrong quite quickly.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Good strategy for not losing an argument,

I don't really need to prove anything to you. I already know the CT525 can keep up with an SLM with the correct weight breaks and aero breaks. Seems there are many tracks that understand that considering they run by the rules I'm arguing for.

Thanks,
Jeff.

It can win races without nose side boards and big spoilers. Guys like Zach Dohm and Ronnie Johnson would make a mockery of the races with the rules you are promoting.

[W2Racing09]

It can win races without nose side boards and big spoilers. Guys like Zach Dohm and Ronnie Johnson would make a mockery of the races with the rules you are promoting.

Not sure when Dohm started running a 525 but he has run at the Knob before (where the rules I'm advocating are in place) and I do not see anything in the win column for him by searching on google. He may have won before but it seems he has run there several times and not won as well. I don't think the aero benefits really amount to much, in fact just the set back and weight break probably account for enough, if that wasn't enough then the 12" spoiler would do it. No spillboards required.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

You can buy GM factory seals from various places.
Stan Lester from Fastrak swore up and down when he started Fastrak there was no way Joe racer or Joe engine shop could obtain factory seals.
He was proven wrong quite quickly.....

You are saying if someone takes a 500 or so hp motor and gets it to the point of making 700 hp nobody would notice? You could probably tell just by listening to it, that is aside from the obvious benefit of 200 more hp on track, even a driver sandbagging wouldn't be able to hide that.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Bubstr]

You are saying if someone takes a 500 or so hp motor and gets it to the point of making 700 hp nobody would notice? You could probably tell just by listening to it, that is aside from the obvious benefit of 200 more hp on track, even a driver sandbagging wouldn't be able to hide that.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Just give no handicaps and they don't have to check anything in the engine, just like it is now. Maybe the series will hire a good listener.

[Drop Shock]

Not sure when Dohm started running a 525 but he has run at the Knob before (where the rules I'm advocating are in place) and I do not see anything in the win column for him by searching on google. He may have won before but it seems he has run there several times and not won as well. I don't think the aero benefits really amount to much, in fact just the set back and weight break probably account for enough, if that wasn't enough then the 12" spoiler would do it. No spillboards required.

Thanks,
Jeff.
Roaring knob is not the only place trying to help the 525s. AMRA allows the same rules your claiming are nessecary to be competitive and Dohm wins at these little slick places in the Ohio valley like Skyline, I-77, and Beckley with an 8 inch spoiler and 2300 pounds. The spoiler and the weight would help for sure, but you also box yourself in when you do that. You can't take your car and go run anywhere outside your area.

[fastford]

Good strategy for not losing an argument,

I don't really need to prove anything to you. I already know the CT525 can keep up with an SLM with the correct weight breaks and aero breaks. Seems there are many tracks that understand that considering they run by the rules I'm arguing for.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I have not lost yet, prove me wrong....

[buster83]

hell u can get a small block 427 that puts out 800hp.

[j1s]

Try taking a Nag to the Kentucky Derby and talking them into allowing you to use drugs to make it fast. The purse money would go away PDQ, even though the Nag was cheaper.
I love this analogy!!!! My daughter competes in equestrian events. Since I have a limited budget she only has a pony, but she competes against kids with giant athletic sport horses. My daughter gets absolutely no breaks. She just has to work harder to be competitive with the "rich" kids. Occasionally we go to "pony only" shows and guess what; she wins... imagine that. When I can afford horse, she will get a horse. Until then she is becoming a better rider by having to work harder against those with better "equipment". The key is she gets no breaks due to my limited budget, and racers with limited budgets should not get breaks. If you want big boy then do what the big boys do, or get stomped!!!!

[W2Racing09]

I love this analogy!!!! My daughter competes in equestrian events. Since I have a limited budget she only has a pony, but she competes against kids with giant athletic sport horses. My daughter gets absolutely no breaks. She just has to work harder to be competitive with the "rich" kids. Occasionally we go to "pony only" shows and guess what; she wins... imagine that. When I can afford horse, she will get a horse. Until then she is becoming a better rider by having to work harder against those with better "equipment". The key is she gets no breaks due to my limited budget, and racers with limited budgets should not get breaks. If you want big boy then do what the big boys do, or get stomped!!!!

It isn't about the little guys asking for a break. It is more about adding a sustainable motor option for anyone looking to race these cars. I do not think the division is sustainable at its current $60k+ entry point (Car, Motor, Trailer, Tools, etc.). There needs to be a way to cut back some costs, and they are especially good if they do not have any effect on anyone else's car. Maybe a rule like this would bring in 4 or 5 new cars to a track like Potomac over three or four years. That is the difference between 11 cars and 15 or 16 weekly. I just don't see the point in being against it. You do everything exactly the same, you have the same motor, the same car, the same everything, you show up to the track weighing the same and doing the same stuff, you go out on the track and race the same way. It does not have any effect on you at all, it just allows others to run the division as well.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[j1s]

Let 'em run. No breaks. Just like my daughter gets to ride her pony with big horses, but she gets no breaks. What if MLB baseball let the guys with less natural power use aluminum bats? That would suck... right? Instead the less powerful guys have to fine tune there game if they want play in the majors or better yet they play in the minors for years with aspirations of one day making it to the show. The point is; if you want to be a big boy then do what it takes to be a big boy. Crying, complaining and asking for concessions is not what big boys do. Big boys face the challenge head on, and when they fail, they don't ask for break, they work harder and harder to get where they want to be. If racing a Super Late Model is what a racer wants to do, then a racer should work his tail off to make it to Supers. If that means racing a Crate for years then so be it.

[W2Racing09]

Let 'em run. No breaks. Just like my daughter gets to ride her pony with big horses, but she gets no breaks. What if MLB baseball let the guys with less natural power use aluminum bats? That would suck... right? Instead the less powerful guys have to fine tune there game if they want play in the majors or better yet they play in the minors for years with aspirations of one day making it to the show. The point is; if you want to be a big boy then do what it takes to be a big boy. Crying, complaining and asking for concessions is not what big boys do. Big boys face the challenge head on, and when they fail, they don't ask for break, they work harder and harder to get where they want to be. If racing a Super Late Model is what a racer wants to do, then a racer should work his tail off to make it to Supers. If that means racing a Crate for years then so be it.

That would be all well and good if there were not countless tracks all over the country starving for more cars. The big boys will have no place to race once tracks getting single digit car counts pull the plug on the division. I bet that any fan at a track that is forced to pull the plug would be happy to see 10 open LMs and 10 CT525 LMs racing rather than 604 Crates as the top division.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[j1s]

Well... It is America, no business venture is guaranteed to succeed. I like that!!! If you want to spread the wealth, then I am sure you can find an economy somewhere in the world that will gladly accept your way of thinking.

[fastford]

I love this analogy!!!! My daughter competes in equestrian events. Since I have a limited budget she only has a pony, but she competes against kids with giant athletic sport horses. My daughter gets absolutely no breaks. She just has to work harder to be competitive with the "rich" kids. Occasionally we go to "pony only" shows and guess what; she wins... imagine that. When I can afford horse, she will get a horse. Until then she is becoming a better rider by having to work harder against those with better "equipment". The key is she gets no breaks due to my limited budget, and racers with limited budgets should not get breaks. If you want big boy then do what the big boys do, or get stomped!!!!

very good analyses J1, if your pony cant compete with the big horses , then you enter it in the pony class. some on here, with out any substantial evidence to back it up, think the all mighty crate is gone save late model racing, lol , they think that a cheap engine and a break is gone let them be competitive with the " big boy,s" and there money. what they cant seem to understand is the ones with huge budgets will also buy these engines along with any thing else that will give them an advantage. so you crate lovers keep rite on fooling your self, but I have already witnessed this when the 602 crate first came out. it was supposed to be a low budget start up class. it lasted about a year and guess what, here comes Ronnie Johnson and several other experienced racers with more money and very expensive equipment and they pretty much dominated the crate class every where ever they went. cant blame them, they like to win to. its been proven over and over again, you cant restrict the ones with money with engines alone, they will find an advantage some where else. this is my last comment on this thread, you fellows on a budget, , like me , go buy you a 525 and jump right in and let us know a year from now how it worked out, good luck.

[W2Racing09]

Well... It is America, no business venture is guaranteed to succeed. I like that!!! If you want to spread the wealth, then I am sure you can find an economy somewhere in the world that will gladly accept your way of thinking.

Right, because this has anything to do with wealth redistribution.

Please.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

very good analyses J1, if your pony cant compete with the big horses , then you enter it in the pony class. some on here, with out any substantial evidence to back it up, think the all mighty crate is gone save late model racing, lol , they think that a cheap engine and a break is gone let them be competitive with the " big boy,s" and there money. what they cant seem to understand is the ones with huge budgets will also buy these engines along with any thing else that will give them an advantage. so you crate lovers keep rite on fooling your self, but I have already witnessed this when the 602 crate first came out. it was supposed to be a low budget start up class. it lasted about a year and guess what, here comes Ronnie Johnson and several other experienced racers with more money and very expensive equipment and they pretty much dominated the crate class every where ever they went. cant blame them, they like to win to. its been proven over and over again, you cant restrict the ones with money with engines alone, they will find an advantage some where else. this is my last comment on this thread, you fellows on a budget, , like me , go buy you a 525 and jump right in and let us know a year from now how it worked out, good luck.

Nobody is saying the big drivers can't go out and get the motor too. Nobody is asking for an advantage, just to make the motor an option FOR EVERYONE. I doubt it will ever be consistent or competitive enough that Bloomquist or someone would choose to use it over an open motor, but if it was nobody would blame them for it. The whole point is giving more people the ability to compete in the class which desperately needs more cars at the weekly level.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[MM90]

You can't have an "affordable" class have a "Super" LM payout and expect the money to stay out of the class.

[W2Racing09]

You can't have an "affordable" class have a "Super" LM payout and expect the money to stay out of the class.

I'm not saying the money should stay out of the class, it is the top non open wheel division in dirt racing. There is nowhere else for the money to go. With that said it isn't sustainable for the class to be open only to those who are rich. There are talented drivers that simply cannot afford the huge price to break into the division. If there were an option to get into the division at a lower price then that is good. They will still be competing against those with a lot more money and nobody would be complaining. It is just that right now those drivers run Steel Blocks or Crates while the Super counts dwindle. Separating them into secondary divisions does not help SLM car counts in fact it has done a whole lot to hurt them.

[j1s]

Jeff-- You are advocating for Super payouts to be shared among non-Super late models. You want promoters to distribute super payouts to non-super cars, in a sense you are promoting "redistribution of wealth". Racers who can afford to play in the big time worked their tails off to be able to do it... they have earned. If you want Super pay, get a Super. Just because someone has talent does not mean they are entitled to what someone less talented has. If someone has the talent, then they should work hard to reach their potential.

[Clayton_Wetter]

I agree with the part about all of the divisions, so how does it help to relegate the CT525 to its own division? Are you saying the motor should not be used in dirt track racing applications? A $10,000 crate motor that is capable of racing with the SLM division with a few breaks and has rebuild costs that are a fraction of that of an open motor should not be considered for dirt track racing?

No breaks for the CT525, that is not fair to those that spent the big bucks. The rules must be the same for all. Choosing to race in the SLM class or the Crate class are the options.

Does the guy with with shorter legs get to start ahead of the rest of the field in a foot Marathon?

[ClampedUp]

Nobody is saying the big drivers can't go out and get the motor too. Nobody is asking for an advantage, just to make the motor an option FOR EVERYONE. I doubt it will ever be consistent or competitive enough that Bloomquist or someone would choose to use it over an open motor, but if it was nobody would blame them for it. The whole point is giving more people the ability to compete in the class which desperately needs more cars at the weekly level.

Thanks,
Jeff.

What exactly do you want??? One post you're pushing for nose boards, 12" spoiler, and weight breaks and in this post you are saying no one is asking for an advantage.

All these crate deals remind me of is the old west snake oil salesmen selling their magical elixir that will solve all your worldly problems. And we know how that all worked out.....

[PushinTheLimit]

Would any of the big teams have a problem with the 525 being legal for WoO or Lucas if it had to meet the same rules as the open motor guys? Meaning, the 525 gets no extra spoiler, no reduced weight, etc... just have it open in the rules that you could run the motor.

If this was the case, the guy with the 525 could at least have the option of trying to make a super late race if they wanted to. If it's a night that the track is heavy and fast, they just won't keep up. If it's slicked up, then they have a chance to see what they can do. Just curious how those with supers would feel about that.

[Matt49]

Right, because this has anything to do with wealth redistribution.

Please.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I has EVERYTHING to do with wealth redistribution. Giving a handout (12" spoiler) to somebody because they can't afford an 800HP motor is racing's version of welfare.
I agree that the engines should be allowed (get rid of the coil pack rule) but to then give them a break is ridiculous.
I run a 604 crate motor and run mostly in the crate class but when we do go run with the opens we run under the same rules as them and don't complain one bit.
Our economic system is based on the idea of equal OPPORTUNITY not equal OUTCOME.

[FlatTire]

So what produces better car counts at ur local track on saturday night. The more expensive open engines or the lesser priced spec and crate options? That's what this is about. Let the WoO and Lucas keep their $45k open motors. Economically they make zero sense to me for a Saturday night racer. Feel free to convince me!

[Matt49]

Dolly Parton purses at local tracks hurts car counts. I don't think every kid deserves a trophy but 11th through 20th paying the same is kind of ridiculous. The winner deserves the lion's share for sure but don't flat-line the purse after 8th place or so.
My local track allows the 525 with the supers for weekly competition with NO breaks and I would do it in heartbeat if there were other tracks in the area that allowed it and if I could run the two Lucas shows that we have. Instead, I stay in the crate deal where we have good competition and decent pay.

[hygty]

join UMP the y allow it , woo is the same way as lucas what are they afraid of

[W2Racing09]

What exactly do you want??? One post you're pushing for nose boards, 12" spoiler, and weight breaks and in this post you are saying no one is asking for an advantage.

All these crate deals remind me of is the old west snake oil salesmen selling their magical elixir that will solve all your worldly problems. And we know how that all worked out.....

Nobody is asking for an advantage IE: 12" Spoiler, weight breaks, etc. will not give a car with a CT525 an advantage over a car with an 800hp open motor. Its not like I'm saying the cars with CT525 should get four tires and the open motors only three. That stuff makes a difference but on most track conditions it is still not enough to overcome a 300hp gap.

[W2Racing09]

Would any of the big teams have a problem with the 525 being legal for WoO or Lucas if it had to meet the same rules as the open motor guys? Meaning, the 525 gets no extra spoiler, no reduced weight, etc... just have it open in the rules that you could run the motor.

If this was the case, the guy with the 525 could at least have the option of trying to make a super late race if they wanted to. If it's a night that the track is heavy and fast, they just won't keep up. If it's slicked up, then they have a chance to see what they can do. Just curious how those with supers would feel about that.

I don't think that would really help. The motor would be basically pointless. You would need certain track conditions to even have a close to equal shot at winning. The point of this post is about making the CT525 a viable option so more people can run the SLM division (at no expense to the fans, who would not be able to tell the difference because the CT525 could keep up with the Open motors given the right breaks). If it has pretty much no chance to win nobody will ever buy one. The only place allowing them would do anything is in the South where they have their own division and people already have them. Here in the North East only a few tracks run them (most by the rules I've suggested or similar) and a few cars have them, but if more tracks would adopt, so would more drivers.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

Dolly Parton purses at local tracks hurts car counts. I don't think every kid deserves a trophy but 11th through 20th paying the same is kind of ridiculous. The winner deserves the lion's share for sure but don't flat-line the purse after 8th place or so.
My local track allows the 525 with the supers for weekly competition with NO breaks and I would do it in heartbeat if there were other tracks in the area that allowed it and if I could run the two Lucas shows that we have. Instead, I stay in the crate deal where we have good competition and decent pay.

So you are asking tracks to up the payout for their division with struggling car counts? Most tracks in the country don't break the 20 mark in the SLM division. Tracks have nothing to gain out of increasing the payout from 10th to 20th. It might make some drivers happy but I doubt $200 for 10th instead of $150 is going to be enough to convince someone to go out and drop $60k on an SLM operation.

[buster83]

the cream rise to the top, there are other engines out there that produce more hp then the crate engine and that hurts the class limited to a crate engine,and a dyno pretty well show they are junk, for them to stay up with the big boys would be smaller tracks,but on 1/2 mile tracks there a dead duck sitting in the water.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Nobody is asking for an advantage IE: 12" Spoiler, weight breaks, etc. will not give a car with a CT525 an advantage over a car with an 800hp open motor. Its not like I'm saying the cars with CT525 should get four tires and the open motors only three. That stuff makes a difference but on most track conditions it is still not enough to overcome a 300hp gap.

At any slick 1/4 mile to 1/3 mile deal, indeed you are.

[SnakeX3]

This may be a bit off topic, but I was just listening to the videocast with Todd Turner on DoD and it was mentioned that Ray Cook suggested having all types run together but have class/division winners within a race. This would be similar to what they do in the endurance series races. Depending on car counts you could run heat races for each type and advance as many to the feature from each class as would make sense. Everyone gets a chance to win the feature, but there would also be a race within a race with money paid to class winners as well.

[FlatTire]

That's a cool idea. Make it even more interesting for fans. Would help everyone.

[lcr50]

Iv raced at Ray Cooks track and he has 5 classes of car. Supers. Crates. Steel blocks. Street stocks super stock.

[lcr50]

This one is for Jeff about roaring knob did thy ever get the water truck fixed last week pump was still broke couldn't get water on track just around out side and does Mel race any other tracks?????

[j1s]

Jeff-- you are one clever son of gun. I just saw on twitter that Mel Minnick Jr. Won the feature at roaring knob. I guess we must all bow down to you now... Haha. The knob had 32 total cars in the pits across 4/5 divisions... That's a bummer right there. Guess they should let the 525 guys run in every class... Because they are saving the supers at the knob!!!

[Dante Toledo, OH]

So what produces better car counts at ur local track on saturday night. The more expensive open engines or the lesser priced spec and crate options? That's what this is about. Let the WoO and Lucas keep their $45k open motors. Economically they make zero sense to me for a Saturday night racer. Feel free to convince me!The tracks near me (Oakshade, Attica, Eldora) all run UMP super late models. No crates. Car counts are good, crowds are good.

[tgracing4]

The CT525 was built to race in super late model, and be competitive with open aluminum engines. I remember a couple of years ago, William Thomas went on a tear winning 4 or 5 races in a row with a 525, and was out running open motors on big half mile tracks where he should have been at a disadvantage. If a promotor or tech man thinks a car with spec super late model engine is equivalent a car running a 362 limited engine, they may be smoking something that they shouldn't be.

[W2Racing09]

Jeff-- you are one clever son of gun. I just saw on twitter that Mel Minnick Jr. Won the feature at roaring knob. I guess we must all bow down to you now... Haha. The knob had 32 total cars in the pits across 4/5 divisions... That's a bummer right there. Guess they should let the 525 guys run in every class... Because they are saving the supers at the knob!!!

They are not going to save anything until more tracks allow them. I don't know about you but I wouldn't build a car that could only run at one track in the area (especially if that track is Roaring Knob).

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Josh Bayko]

They are not going to save anything until more tracks allow them. I don't know about you but I wouldn't build a car that could only run at one track in the area (especially if that track is Roaring Knob).

Thanks,
Jeff.

You can run a 525 in supers at just about every super late model track in the country. It fits under super late model engine rules. They don't get concessions everywhere though, and that's the way it should be.

[HighMaintenance2007]

FUEL CT-525 LM SERIES Eyes Upcoming Georgia Swing At Hartwell & Screven Motor Sports Complex

FUEL Racing Series is more than ready to get back on track as the series gears up for back to back events in Georgia.

On May 30th, FUEL visits Hartwell Speedway (Hartwell, GA) for the 2nd Annual Wendell "Peanut Man" Rousey Memorial. On June 6th, the series invades Screven Motor Sports Complex (Sylvania, GA) for the GM CT525 Georgia Shootout. It will be the first visit for FUEL Racing Series to each of these venues and both events will offer a $3000 To Win/$300 To Start purse for the competitors.
Ross Bailes took the season opening event at Cherokee Speedway followed by Trent Ivey and Brett Hamm. Carter Stokes, Donald Bradsher, Ricky Weeks, Steve Banal, and others are looking to improve at Screven as several FUEL regulars and many regional teams are expected to make the Georgia Swing. Follow the FUEL series online (fuelracingseries.com) on Facebook (FUEL Racing Series) and on Twitter (@FUEL525SERIES) leading up each of these exciting events.

FUEL's visit to Hartwell will be a special visit as the series headlines the 2nd Annual Wendell "Peanut Man" Rousey Memorial. Hartwell Speedway is filled with tradition and for the series to be affiliated with the memory of one of Hartwell Speedway's patrons is a distinct pleasure and honor. Several of the areas drivers are expected to join the FUEL regulars for battle on a track that is known to produce some intense racing and exciting finishes. Other divisions scheduled to compete are: Limited Late Model, SECA Late Model, Hobby, Modified Street, Stock V8, Stock Four, & Up Front.

The June 6th trip to Screven Motorsports Complex has been circled on the calendar of many teams. Screven Motor Speedway is no stranger to high profile dirt late model events and the GM CT525 Georgia Shootout will be no different.

Screven is known for side by side racing and it will be interesting to see if the GM 604 crate engines can prevail against the CT525 engines. Screven's unique surface and banking combination offers the prime battlefield for these two engine combinations to compete. Other divisions scheduled to compete include: Super Streets, Road Warriors, Pure Stock V8, Mini Stocks, and Renegade 4's.

For more information about Hartwell Speedway, visit them online (hartwell-speedway.com), on Facebook (Hartwell Speedway), and on Twitter (@HartRacing)

For more information about Screven Motor Speedway and Screven Motorsports Complex, visit them online (screvenmotorsports.com), on Facebook (Screven Motor Sports Complex), and on Twitter (@Screven MSC)


Partners of FUEL Racing Series include: City Chevrolet Performance, Chevrolet Performance, Hoosier Racing Tire, State Water Heaters, Klotz Synthetics, Milwaukee Tool, FK Rod Ends, Heintz Performance, D&E Marine, Performance Tees, JRi Shocks, B&B Motorsports, Mega Plumbing of the Carolinas, Kenny Lamb Racing Engines, KRC Components, Renegade Race Fuels, Integra Racing Shocks, Beyea Headers, VP Racing Fuels, WP Racing Shocks, DRIVEN Oil, ARbodies, Superior Trailers, To The Point, Flag To Flag, Velocita, & Thomas Clarke Performance

[W2Racing09]

You can run a 525 in supers at just about every super late model track in the country. It fits under super late model engine rules. They don't get concessions everywhere though, and that's the way it should be.

Which is why nobody will run it, because you are trying to run a motor with barely more than 500 hp against 850 hp motors with everything else the same.

This particular thread is dead, clearly there are a bunch of people against it, and a bunch for it. Either way it does not matter what we think. The only people's who opinion really matters are those of the people who make rules at the tracks and series.

Thanks,
Jeff.