Free up entry

[RSS]

How to free up entry when up on bars without loosing drive off? Trying to change driving habit and keep car up on bars, but now car won't rotate in middle of corner. Only way to turn is to drop throttle and roll middle of corner. Thanks in advance

[Matt49]

Softer LF spring
Stiffer compression in RR shock
Softer rebound in 5th coil shock
Stiffer compression in LR shock
Stiffer 6th coil
Softer RR spring
Flatten J-bar
Increase LR bite

The last 3 could also give you more drive off the corner.

[RSS]

Springs now LF 550, RF 325, LR 200, RR 225. Only LR behind shock with chain, got traction shock just havnt put it on yet. Car rolls into rf hard on entry but pushes up at mid corner. All help appreciated.

[dirtdobberrr]

If the car is turning in o.k., you might lengthen the passenger side wheelbase 1/4" to 1/2".Matt49 mentioned flattening the j-bar, I agree, but if you are on the bottom of the pinion with the j-bar, you may need to come up some.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Springs now LF 550, RF 325, LR 200, RR 225. Only LR behind shock with chain, got traction shock just havnt put it on yet. Car rolls into rf hard on entry but pushes up at mid corner. All help appreciated.

I typically associate mid corner with j bar. Unless you are getting back in gas...

[RSS]

I'm just below pinion on j-bar, and I would consider it getting back on gas as I'm trying not to lift had and drop off bars.

[Matt49]

Let's try it a different way. Are you decelerating or accelerating when you have the loose condition.

[RSS]

Not a loose condition, driving car into corner on bars,(maybe half throttle) get to middle of corner(on RF frame rail) and car pushes up if I don't drop throttle to rotate. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but trying not to get beat in and through middle as bad

[dirtdobberrr]

How many inches of rake in your j-bar?

[MBR Performance]

Raise your LR bottom rod 1 hole on frame.

[powerslide]

He wants to know how to get the car to turn like davenport does on entry with the LR still hiked up i believe he is trying to trail brake. Davenport looks like he never lifts a lot of the time. I'm sure he's lifting some but the rear of the car doesn't set down and the car still turns when he gets to the center. I've tried it on occasions and when its heavy it does just like he has said get to the center and won't turn.

What track are you at i think that plays a big part.

[RSS]

I'll have to measure jbar rake tonight, normal track for us is 1/2 mile, medium banking at best. Softened LF spring, to try something.

[hucktyson]

If your having to " drop " the car to get it to rotate the car is too tight .

[stock car driver]

stiffer rr spring will free it up ON the gas into and thru the corner

[hucktyson]

Exactly SCR ... The guy is complaining that his car won't rotate the center and the crate superstar no one has ever heard of suggests a softer RR spring .... I would just weld a 225 on there and adjust something else.

[hucktyson]

Powerslide , davenport staying on the bars with the car at the perfect attitude is what MAKES it turn ... You make it sound as if that prevents it from turning ...

[RSS]

So hucktyson, your recommendations to adjust something else are?

[powerslide]

Thank you RSS.

I was describing what he is wanting the car to do. He was having a hard time putting it in words so I gave an example of what he is trying to do. Some drivers have the davenport style some are more the bloomer/moyer style.

When I try to drive like "davenport" or "Richards" with any moisture the car will stay on the bars but gets to the center and wont turn. Mine is a mod not a late model. In the same night I tried driving like "davenport" in the heat/qualifier and the car wouldn't turn, I went back to lifting and the car turned and we won, didn't change a thing except the way I drove it. If I could figure out how to get it to turn while staying somewhat in the gas we would win more. I'm still green behind the wheel so I learn something every time we go out.

[HuckleberryB4]

I'm thinking it was directed towards Matt and not you Powerslide.

[stock car driver]

Thank you RSS.

I was describing what he is wanting the car to do. He was having a hard time putting it in words so I gave an example of what he is trying to do. Some drivers have the davenport style some are more the bloomer/moyer style.

When I try to drive like "davenport" or "Richards" with any moisture the car will stay on the bars but gets to the center and wont turn. Mine is a mod not a late model. In the same night I tried driving like "davenport" in the heat/qualifier and the car wouldn't turn, I went back to lifting and the car turned and we won, didn't change a thing except the way I drove it. If I could figure out how to get it to turn while staying somewhat in the gas we would win more. I'm still green behind the wheel so I learn something every time we go out.


a stiffer rr will free it up on the gas and it will turn if not then left lower bar up one hole will free it up all around it takes a free car to drive on the gas all the way around

[dirtracr33]

up on rr lower

[25drtrkr]

The simplest thing to do is roll the rr back 1/4" and see if that helps. Then you could stiffen rr spring and/or raise left lower bar. IMO

[rakracing]

always found the rr lower link played a big roll in entry and middle, had a warrior that did the same thing and we raised both right side links and moved the rr back 1/4 , could almost run it flat out.

[rakracing]

rss, from center off is it loose, or goes where its pointed when full throttle.

[billetbirdcage]

This is probably going to get long winded but I’ll try to keep short: However if you really want the best shot of fixing your issue, we need a ton more info:

For starters yes, trail braking will substantially change the handling of the car as that is part of the whole point of it. While it can make the car turn better at times by keeping the car up and steering, it will just as often make the car way way tighter for most people. This was written a long time ago by me and is really old and needs some updating and has stuff left out but gives a person the basic understanding of trail braking and what it can do for you.

@@@I have had a couple of requests to explain this, so I'm putting this here:

This is probably one of the least understood aspects of driving. This is incredibly hard to learn and do effectively after you have been racing a while. Be prepared to spend a lot of time learning this as it isn't something you’re going to learn in a couple of races.

One thing is you should be easing off the gas similar to the way you would apply it in the slick. Now if it is tacky you can throw a lot of this out the window as it not as big a deal.

The idea is to remove some or all of the engine braking from the car. "Engine Braking”: The deceleration of the car thru the rear tires causes by the engine. This is just the engine (shut throttle) slowing the car down. If you where to stay in the throttle (partially) enough to match the RPM of the engine to the rate of deceleration, you can remove some or all of the deceleration force from the engine. Basically the car is free wheeling into the corner with no deceleration from the engine.

You don't necessarily go into the corner harder or faster, but since you have removed a large force of deceleration (engine braking) you will likely need to use more brakes to slow the car down to the speed at which you want to enter the corner.

So how does this help?: First, staying in the throttle some and removing some engine braking will noticeably tighten the car on entry. Engine braking is 100% thru the rear tires, so if you remove some of it and then use more brakes (which are not ever 100% rear) you have reduced the total amount of slowing by the rear tires. This will tighten entry. The big benefit comes from being able to vary the amount of engine braking by varying the throttle. If the car is too tight on entry you just get out of the throttle more to loosen entry or if the car is loose you try to stay in the throttle and remove all of the engine braking. It also allows you to make the car tighter or looser at any point on corner entry. This just means I could trail brake more early entry (tightening car) and then closer to the middle trail brake less (loosening car) to make the car rotate.

This is something that if you are not doing, you are leaving something on the table. You are never going to have perfect car every night, ever wonder why the big guys never seem to show really big handling problems. This is because they can adjust driving to make the car do what they need to. It also allows you to have a larger sweet spot for the car, as the driver can adjust entry one way or the other if needed as the track changes.

This is harder to do on some tracks then other and does take a while to learn and use on a regular basis. If you don't think this makes a lot of difference, sometime on a practice night turn the idle up the engine to 3500 RPM and go right back out and you see how much tighter the car is on entry. Once you are able to do this you will likely have the car freed up on entry a fair amount from what you used to run because you will be tightening the car with the trail braking.

That's the best way I can think of to describe it.

Billet@@@

Ok, back to your issue. When you say it’s tight in the middle (be specific here if you can and mention if your not 100% sure).

1. Is the car decelerating at the time of the problem? Or is it more maintaining speed or is it slightly accelerating? This is going to have a big determination on what is needed to fix the problem.
2. How much brake are you using? (sort of relates to above) Where are your brakes adjusted too? Heavy rear or more equal? Are you on 3 wheel brakes also? If you are not heavy towards the rear and on 4 wheel brakes is it possible you are sliding/locking up the RF tire?
3. What type of car? Open or crate?
4. You said (“on RF frame rail”)? Was that a term or do you think the RF is actually hitting the ground? And is it touching when the problem occurs?

Try to answer those questions the best you can and be sure to answer all of them and if not 100% on the answers say so.

As matt alluded too, we really need to know if the car is decelerating, coasting or accelerating, even though you are still in the gas. This is where confusion comes in, even though you are still in the gas and using the brakes the car can be doing either of the 3 and needs to be treated differently depending on the case.

As a general rule, if you start trail braking and don’t change your set up you will likely be tighter on entry and most noticeable in the middle (like I said early there are times this isn’t the case, but for people just starting to trail brake it will most likely be the case). So you are typically going to have to free up you base set up, this could be as easy as raising RRL bar or a J-bar adjustment and sometimes it’s more extreme (again depending on where the issue is decel, coast, or accel) .

[let-r-eat]

The art of decelerating a race car separates the men from the boys. Very difficult to do properly. I equate it to not everyone being able to play NBA basketball. Takes natural talent that can't be taught.

[RSS]

1) I would say it's at the maintain part just before accelerating that it pushes RF, couldn't ke times I did feel rf dig in if I came in to hard2)4 she'll brakes favoring rear3)360 steel block w/alum heads on 30 hoosiers4)if I lift and let it turn in the middle of corner it will drive off fairly well, some to be gained there, but have been told to fix entry first, also this is around bottum of track, top is usually used up by time lates get on track

[billetbirdcage]

The art of decelerating a race car separates the men from the boys. Very difficult to do properly. I equate it to not everyone being able to play NBA basketball. Takes natural talent that can't be taught.

I know this is sort of getting off subject but worthy mentioning and talking about

Look at this telemetry from F1: Each line is roughly 5 meters, both in same car and same corner just different drivers. You will see that Schumacher stays full throttle almost a full 10 meters more then Barrichello and is at least 30% brake before he starts to come out of the throttle when Barrichello is not on the brakes at all before he lifts. Schumacher also isn't on the brakes till around 3 meters later then Barrichello and maintains around 15% throttle compare to Rubens closed throttle. Micheal is only completely off the throttle for roughly 5 meters where Ruben is off for 60 meters or more. Micheal also picks up the throttle a meter or 2 sooner then Ruben and is wide open a meter before him.

Sorry thought this was worth mentioning since let-r-eat brought it up

[billetbirdcage]

Back to your issue:

Your reply was a little hard to understand but think I got most of it.

Is this a earlier mastersbilt? Check your RF shock marker and see how close you are to bottoming it out as a 325 on the RF on many of those older cars will bottom the RF frame. You will need to address this issue in some manner, depending on how bad the RF rail dragging is. While you may feel it sometimes, it may still be dragging and losing weight on the RF tire not helping your issue. You may need to address that first and make sure that isn't the main cause of your issue.

A couple other things to look for since you said the track was at the bottom, there are a few pretty common occurrences that can easily be addressed sometimes. See if you aren't turning the car twice, meaning it's common for guys to turn initially like at 9 O'clock then sort of drive in a straight line to the middle of the corner and try to turn again. Keeping more of an arc all the way to the center will solve this a lot of times and is usually caused the way the inner barricades/Ute-tires are layed out. Moving away from the 2nd tire (if there is roughly 3 to the center) by 2 or 3 feet and arcing more will usually clear up a slight push issue in the middle.

You might also ask your crew if the LF is accepting more load at the point which the push happens (basically is the LF settling some at this point on the track), if the answer is yes then softening the LF spring down to a 500 may fix your issue. However if the LF isn't really settling down in that area of the track it isn't likely to help you, but may make the car more maneuverable for the times in heavy traffic.

Also going to 3 wheel brakes is likely to help you depending on what your doing with the brakes at that point, it's common to have to use 3 wheel brakes when you're trail braking. Also just varying the amount of trail braking your doing at the point of the problem can solve this issue also. You might try rolling up on the throttle some but not all the way out like I assume you having to do to make it turn at that point, say like 1/4 throttle if you been 1/2 throttle before. I know you said your more in coast at this point so I assume you still on the brakes a reasonable amount at this point and when this happens? Also if you could get a crew guy down in the corner on the outside to make sure you not locking up the RF tire, that would be a big plus. It's not uncommon to lock the RF tire up when trail braking with 4 wheel brakes, especially on slower tracks and at the bottom where the RF is in the slick.

It's also possible you're driving a tad to straight for the conditions, does your crew think your driving overly straight compared to the others at the same track? Are you countersteering at all when this happens?

If none of those apply to you, then I'd simply loosen up the car some on entry with the RRL bar or raise the J-bar slightly on the pinion. I'd be way more inclined to do the RRL bar, if the track is fairly slow. If it's a faster track then I'd go more for the J-bar, but don't be surprised if this actually makes it worse. J-bar can be really track dependent sometimes

[billetbirdcage]

One last item: You wouldn't happen to have the RR caliper floated on the birdcage would you?

[rocket1*]

Rss what brand of car and what year? How many years of experience in the car?

[RSS]

Bullet and rocket1 I'm Pm'd you

[RSS]

3yr old Pierce

[fast_crew]

Sounds like you need more stagger or more rear steer

[fox1162002]

Pin the LF down like the RF and go to a 400 lb spring on LF. She will turn then on or off gas.

[reddog]

Will a 400 on LF with a lot of tie down still be tight enough on entry ? Will it work when track gets slow and slick ? Thanks

[keeks]

I was just doing some reading tonight and came across this thread. Billet asked if he was floating the caliper on the birdcage on the RR. What is the effect on the car if you do this?

[m_stagev]

I was just doing some reading tonight and came across this thread. Billet asked if he was floating the caliper on the birdcage on the RR. What is the effect on the car if you do this?
when braking the right rear rotor loads the right rear caliper and pushes up on the top bar and loads the right rear tire more.

[Matt49]

when braking the right rear rotor loads the right rear caliper and pushes up on the top bar and loads the right rear tire more.

Correct...which results in tighter entry while braking.
Most cars today provide so much side bite that this is a setup of the past.

[mod88s]

Go to 475 LF spring and raise RRL bar up a hole, both will help if your running the bottom of the track

[HRT2332]

Does anyone know how to get in touch with hucktyson? Under his name says banned.

[powerslide]

Does anyone know how to get in touch with hucktyson? Under his name says banned.

Brian Gray has his number i believe...

[Matt49]

Brian Gray has his number i believe...

I knew someone would hit it of the tee.

Seriously though, Google Hodgkiss Construction. That's his outfit.

[a25rjr]

Brian Gray has his number i believe...

......or Sergio! :)