Is the crate killing imca mods

[jasjenh]

Just wondering whats happening around the country with the imca mods now that we have a few years with the crate. Our local track has lost cars because of it, just wondering if that's a trend or we are abnormal. We used to draw in 18 to 20 cars now we are down to 10 to 12.

I have tried to talk to the guys that quit and some said they wouldn't run a crate others quit because of cost of switching over, others said shock packages have gotten out of hand. I am not bashing the crate, something had to be done to control costs, but I think there is better options or the rules need tweaked to help out the open motor guys.

I am another one of those guys on the fence of quitting because I will never run a crate. Why its a principal thing. I could build that same motor for half the cost in my garage if the rules allowed.

Please lets try to keep this a good discussion not a bashing post. I know that will be hard. lol

[powerslide]

Are crates dominating the track you run? The same guys who won before the crate still winning?

[let-r-eat]

I agree that the engines shouldn't need to be sealed. Anyone should be able to get the parts that's on a 604 or 602 and build one and be legal.

Many think this is an avenue for cheating but at any real crate race they are inspecting the engines anyway.

[jasjenh]

try to run the north Dakota tour with an open motor or vegas or any big series, they are dominated by crates. why because they have an advantage. ask any big name driver that tried staying with the open motor then switched to the crate to keep up.

our track is 50/50 open vs crate but the top 5 are almost always crate. the guys that were in the back a couple years ago are in the front now with the crate. any veteran driver that has gave in to the crate is immediately back up front.

[oldtrackchamp4x]

Yea, saw the Jeff Taylor interview in North Dakota. He tried running a "crate killer" motor that Mullins built for him but he had to put his crate motor in after two or three races as he was not competitive. Think he won the next two features. JMO

[Lizardracing]

That's the problem. A racer never has to buy everything new. There are about a gazillion used but good shape parts where money can be saved. Cranks and rods and pistons prolly aren't good places but remember when everyone built their engines instead of buying from a catalog? I do. Remember when you repaired what you have instead of replacing everything? I do. With a crate, if something goes wrong its another $3500 instead of the cost of repair.
I don't have any real answers to the the why racing as a hobby perhaps someday gone or even outdated but I can tell ya it was a lot more fun building a car and competing your ideas against others than buying everything and assembling it per the instructions. Around these parts the 9:1 open engine and the crates seem real popular. Affordable and yet still fun.

[jasjenh]

When we all had 2 or 3 open motors lying around that we could freshen every year for a 1000 to 2000 dollars a piece and get a season out of them, it didn't seem that bad money wise. Unless you had a total failure. ouch. Now to keep up with the "jones" we have to run out and spend anywhere from 8000 to 10000 and start over with the motors. Yes them prices are real numbers from guys I talked to at the track.

Yes the next motor is a lot cheaper once you are set up but I have been hearing about a lot of failures in the first couple of nights of use. If you get past that they are supposed to be pretty reliable.

Yes everything has gone up in price no doubt about it. I agree with lizardracing it was a lot more fun when we built everything. I still try to do as much as I can which is a lot but you cant do everything yourself anymore and still be competitive.

Gould has some posts on facebook too about the issue. If guys with that kind of backing cant make it a go, how can us normal 9 to 5 guys make it work.

[ride height]

Crates are so cheated up. Nobody just runs an out of the box crate and wins. 10k crate motors are the norm. Its pretty much ruined. Sad to say.

[ask0329]

Pretty good article. Theres mention of IMCA style mods in it as well.

http://www.onedirt.com/features/the-ripple-effect/

[Confused?]

I find it funny with all the complaining about the crates, nobody is wanting to build 11:1 355s anymore. They still want the big hp motors and can't understand why they get beat by a motor that makes a little over 400hp and 400 lbs. of torque. I think the intent was to get everyone back to lower hp numbers and less expensive motors. My next one will not be any more that a 11:1 383, if that.

The guys winning down here were winning with open motors too. The crate won't make a 16th place driver, a winner. It takes more than that.

[jasjenh]

I disagree with confused on the 16th place guy going to the front. At our track the better drivers and veteran driver were reluctant to change at first. All of a sudden the guys that were getting lapped were starting to finish up front. Now the better drivers and veterans that switch to the crate are back up front. Just a fact from our track.

I agree with the smaller motors that's what most of us open motor guys are doing but it doesn't seem to be good enough.

I don't know gould at all. Just read some opinions of his and I tend to agree with him and taylor. I am not saying an open motor cant win. we have had our share of top fours this year but the wins are 90 percent crate guys.

stock car driver maybe you do have 32000 in your crate. I don't know you,but two of my good buddies have 8000 and 9000 in their crates respectfully. That was to get started from scratch. Best of the best of everything. I personally think they went overboard.

We bring two cars to the track every week, and I hate to penalize the track for quitting but until they do something about the situation its like bringing a gun to a knife fight.

[swartzman]

all I can say is Tim dohm, 20,000 wvms, straight out of the crate, no blue printing, no nothing..

[Dirtracer50]

Are guys running the same carb as they were on open motors or are they buying a crate specific carb? I've seen crate carbs selling for as much as $2,100. That would greatly add to the cost of running a crate if someone figured it was needed.

I build my own engines and don't plan to ever run a crate but I do believe the crates have an advantage. If there was no advantage to the crate engine I wouldn't see guys bringing two cars to the track and deciding which one to run based on track conditions.

I wish IMCA would have left the aerodynamics alone and given a 50lb weight break to a crate car instead of a spoiler. Just my opinion tho and I've probably been wrong a lot more than I have been correct.

[Confused?]

Was talking with a Crate driver last night. He told me that his set-up is everything exactly the same as Grabowski"s. He told me the headers were $900. There is room for exaggeration but I do know there are headers being used that are in excess of $700 for built motors. His complete set-up from lines to pulleys to headers was well over $10K. It's all of the bolt on stuff that is driving the costs up. A driver does not need to buy all of the high dollars parts, but there seems to be a lot of monkey see, monkey do. Those that have the money are going to spend it.

[jasjenh]

I agree confused. Probably dont need to spend that much but people that are winning are spending that. last night was 6 in a row for the crate at our track. While i was sitting in between rounds i had a light bulb go on. lol

We need imca to create a class called the drivers class. same cars as now but no smaller then a 400 cube motor. 12to1 or more compression,aftermarket heads only. roller cams a must. alcohol or e85 only no gas. no two barrels ,maybe even 2 four barrels. no power cutting devices. Now that would bring some fun back into the mix. lol

Any other suggestions?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I agree confused. Probably dont need to spend that much but people that are winning are spending that. last night was 6 in a row for the crate at our track. While i was sitting in between rounds i had a light bulb go on. lol

We need imca to create a class called the drivers class. same cars as now but no smaller then a 400 cube motor. 12to1 or more compression,aftermarket heads only. roller cams a must. alcohol or e85 only no gas. no two barrels ,maybe even 2 four barrels. no power cutting devices. Now that would bring some fun back into the mix. lol

Any other suggestions?
Rules to make engines bigger? Lol

[Confused?]

How about eliminating the 2" blade for the crates and put all of the Mods on 8" slicks. That would be interesting to say the least.

[Confused?]

I'm just stating what I was told by this driver. He has the coin to throw it away like that. Said he wanted everything the same as Grabowski. SCD, you may know this guy. He's been to Boone several times and like to party while he's there. He will be there this year too. I won't post his name on here though.

I personally wouldn't waste my money on a wrap, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

[Confused?]

Not him. I will go some time, but I won't take a car. May go as an official. Not sure yet.

[twisterf5]

we run a 602 crate class in nc. you can spend money on bolt on's to gain a little hp. but we run a basic set up v pullys holly ultra hp out of the box 200 dollar headers with a muffler and we make more hp on the dyno than any one running with us.monky see monky do is what drives up prices and even a 602 will out run a built motor at the right track we took are car to ny and finished 4th with it. we ran ump with a 421 that i could of bought 4 crates with what that thing cost. having more fun now with a crate wife get to go out more and took win #15 this year on friday i will never go back to an open motor.

[UltimateRaceCars]

Car counts up here in WI are staying the same if not growing, its making it an easier transition technically and monetarily for the sportmod guys to move up. I think its been positive for the class overall, I personally would like to see the spoiler gone though to even it up and a spec aluminum head just to see some parity between engine options like there is in the sportmods.
Like a previous poster stated I have yet to see someone that normally runs in the back of the pack bolt a crate in and start running up front. You need a good handling balanced car regardless of your engine choice.
I bought my 604 took it out of the crate, bolted on a JDR carb and put it in my car and was just as fast as the guys who spent tons of money on dyno tuning and hand picked engines. Total cost in my crate vs my claim engine setup was the same. The big savings for me was time, I didnt have to touch my engine all season other than oil changes.

[jasjenh]

Its good to hear its growing where you are at. I hate to see what is happening at our track but it was a single file crate train on Saturday. The stands are starting to reflect that also. boring racing equals no fans. The sportmods really put on a good show and its been 50/50 on crate vs claim so they have it right there.

We were joking around in the pits and thought that bigger motors would make as about much sense as the crate so why not. A good friend of mine put it this way when he went from open to a crate this year. "Its like having legal traction control"

[stockcar5]

sportmods have it right? you've got to be kidding. a 4 barrel on a vortec head 9.5 to 1 motor vs a 4412 on a 9-1 motor with smogger heads..

I cant remember the last time I saw a open motor sportmod win a race if even in the last 3-5 years.

We see them win around here. Last years national champ will be switching soon. Waiting on the rotating assembly to get balanced.

[jasjenh]

The guys around here figured it out with the claim motor. Boring is single file cant pass racing because its all about momentum on the high side. At least the sport mods can race two or three wide and can pass one another.

And yes he has won the last five races in a row. It is a little easier from the front half of the field but the point average is getting better now. In the lead by lap two and checks out.

[wadegarrett]

I agree confused. Probably dont need to spend that much but people that are winning are spending that. last night was 6 in a row for the crate at our track. While i was sitting in between rounds i had a light bulb go on. lol We need imca to create a class called the drivers class. same cars as now but no smaller then a 400 cube motor. 12to1 or more compression,aftermarket heads only. roller cams a must. alcohol or e85 only no gas. no two barrels ,maybe even 2 four barrels. no power cutting devices. Now that would bring some fun back into the mix. lol Any other suggestions? The crate deal is causing issues, I know of one place up north where a top running crate is somehow turning 8k...they blamed the msd box, and changed it out...but I dont buy it. Also hearing about lots of cheating going with cam changes not to mention the high dollar team buying multiple crates. Then you got the UMP bmods where they are forcing you to go to a crate and not even offering you an option for an open motor by imposing heavy weight rules. We wont run a crate and if thats the only option we will move on to another class or find another hobby.

[sirleafalot]

sportmods have it right? you've got to be kidding. a 4 barrel on a vortec head 9.5 to 1 motor vs a 4412 on a 9-1 motor with smogger heads.. I cant remember the last time I saw a open motor sportmod win a race if even in the last 3-5 years. you may want to check results at Fairmont MN open motors winning in sport mod class without issue.

[wadegarrett]

Are you talking about IMCA modifieds? How are they changing the cam? Why would they change the cam? the motors work fine stock. Why does it matter if a person buys multiple crates, I have two, big deal? fyi, They ALL dyno within 5-7 hp new and even out after a few nights. Why would they want to turn a crate 8000 rpm? I dont know you claim to be the crate expert on here you tell us why the big teams are buying numerous engines and dynoing them and selling the rest ? I doubt they are doing it for fun. If there is no advantage then why are they doing it ??? As far as the cam deal goes pretty simple to figure this one out, different cam more rpms more hp. way I hear it you drill a hole in the timing cover behind the water pump which is tough to see and knock out back plug and change cam, and viola ! But hey there is no need to tech these crate motors lol, they are all sealed up, lmao Glad you like the crate the trouble is the many of us do not want to be forced into running them, and the way things are shaping up racers are being forced into running them.

[Confused?]

The cams can be checked without pulling them. It takes more time than most tracks want to spend on tech. There are several tracks around the country that won't check them. That allows for cheating. The same would be true for any class not teched.

Oh, and SCD, just because it says 6400, doesn't always mean it measures 6400

[50j]

The boxes and rev limiters get checked regularly fwiw.

[Confused?]

Not everywhere

[wadegarrett]

where there is smoke there is fire. SCD why dont you try proving to us that crates are not being sold cheated up for 11to 13k ? then on top of all this there are IMCA tracks grooming the track to insure dry slick conditions to benefit the crates. There are way to many people pushing for crates...follow the money its really that easy.

[UltimateRaceCars]

Their may very well be cheated up crate engines out there but the point SCD is trying to make is that it isnt necessary. From my experiences in IMCA with both the 602 and 604 crate engine you are just fine buying the engine and putting it in your car. Their is no need to get a cheated up engine or buying a few and dynoing them and selling the "weak" ones. All the big races and most of the weekly races are being held on very slick tracks which with the IMCA tires can only hold about 350hp so why waste your money on a cheated engine?

[TS3g]

I'm with Ultimate and SCD on this one....although I see lots of claimer Sport Mods winning in KS (which includes the current national points leader), so I'm not a 100% behind SCD. But anyways...

Soooo, crates are killing IMCA modifieds because they have less horsepower and are easier to drive? But, cheated crates are even worse because they have more horsepower than a normal crate? So what then, normal crates are underpowered but fast, but a cheated crate has enough power to beat a normal crate, but not so much to overpower the tires like an open engine, thus are superduper fast? LOL, just LOL.

Racers I swear are the most egotistical and narrow-minded people ever. Rather than admitting their own shortcomings with regards to driving ability or car setup and spending time and effort to improve them, it's ALWAYS some trick part/engine/money/whatever that so-and-so has that makes them faster than they are. Want to know the real secret to going fast? Tune your car/driver to go faster through the corner and quit worrying about whats under the hood or what pullbar Joe Bob is using or what John Boy had for lunch. It really is that simple.

[ask0329]

I cannot verify this first hand but was told by someone who i feel is a trust worthy person that does their homework that you can buy a 604 from F_____n C_______t that has been "loosened up", ran on the dyno, blue printed and a host of other things and the stock seals put right back on it that puts out just in excess of 600hp. Whether these are ending up in IMCA mods or late models I dont know. He was talking in the context of putting one in his RUSH late model.

As for crate engines up here in the northeast. IMCA mods where a thriving class. We had jeez 9 tracks or so with 16-24 cars at each. Then DIRT went to the 602 engine in the NE DIRT Sportsman class. (not imca style mods). Well we are now at 4 imca tracks, none of which with full fields. The NE Dirt sportsman class is out of control. 30+ cars for a regular night. So much so that tracks have added a novice sportsman class cause they where sending too many cars home. The numbers are out of control and its now the biggest division in the north east.

So in that aspect, yes crates have killed imca mods. Atleast up in the NY/PA area.

[oldtrackchamp4x]

TS3g. Right on the money!!!!! JMO.

[25drtrkr]

Carroll Smith, longtime Chevy engineer, coined a famous saying: Tune your chassis and pick up 100hp.

Those who get this are the ones that win, week in and week out!

[wadegarrett]

When you start answering my questions I might consider answering yours. Until then your just slinging unfounded made up accusations like all the other whiners out there. I race every time out with "the big teams". My motors are straight out of the crate and I win now and then and beat them all here and there. no better or worse then your dying allegiance to the crate. the question is already answered for me enjoy the crates, got no issues other than the sanctions and tracks bending rules to support he crates and give them an advantage and then not doing tech, and trying to force out the open motors..

[wadegarrett]

I built a brand new open engine last winter. I've ran 50/50 crate open so far. I lwoukd rather race my open. it makes more noise and fries more tires!! But that doesn't make me want to sling mud lies and stupid accusations about the crate. Anyone can buy a crate they are cheap and reliable. you can come on here and say people are not cheating up crates but you cant prove that either, whatever, go by you another crate for all I care. The point is that the reason the crates are winning are not HP or a better motor its because of the rule changes. keep believing that no one is cheating up the crates.

[ask0329]

Stock Car Driver, The fella that told me about the 600HP Fresen Chevys has no reason to lie to me and would not make this stuff up. Where he got his info, I dont know.

If you read the title of the thread again it clearly states "Is the crate killing IMCA Mods" My reply about the NE sportsman is on par with this. I clearly showed how yes the crate killed the IMCA mods in our neck of the woods. Nowhere in that title does it state "is the crate in imca mods killing imca mods". so yes I accurately replied.

As for the seal bolts, this i have seen with my very own eyes and it is not rocket science. You, or anyone for that matter, can remove the Factory GM seals, do whatever you want to your engine and put them same exact seals right back in and with a little work it looks like they have never been removed. I have followed my buddys 602 from disassemble to a bare block, through full assembly and right back in his car with the very same stock GM seals from the factory. I could show you 10 engines 5 of which have had this done and I'd guarantee you could not pick out all 5. I can personally verify this as again, I have seen this done many times. Ever see the GM seals that are sold on Crate Insider? Tell ya what, our tech up here wasnt good enough to notice my generic $75 cheater seals so theres no way on gods green earth they would be able to pick out the $300 seals from crate insider as being illegal.

[ask0329]

Is that island on McConaughy Lake?

[wadegarrett]

I have a island in Nebraska I would sell you also.... I have no reason to lie so it must be true right?! ALL the seal bolts sold ALL OF THEM are not ss and will rust unlike the oem gm ones they are using now. Also they don't have the gm encryption anyone can id them from 3 feet away. They have caught guys removing the bolts here, they ALWAYS have a prick mark or punch mark from where you have to try and get them moving with a punch. I would think if friesen sold 600hp crates some of the guys I race with who are on Friesen deals would have them and they would then fly by my stock Mexican motor on the straights... so really what this amounts to is that if you are gonna say anything bad about crates, you better have pictures or sworn statements otherwise according to SCD its all lies and made mud slinging.

[wadegarrett]

gee all the folks on this post/board are liars too and no one is cheating up crate engines like SCD says http://www.outsidegroove.com/forum/index.php?topic=12741.0

[jasjenh]

Thanks ask0329 for the info, because that's what is happening in our neck of the woods. Because of the crate, guys are quitting or moving to different classes. That equals lower car count. I didn't want this to be about whos cheating a crate and who isn't.

The fact is I think you can win with a good legal crate but there is no denying the open motors have a disadvantage right now. Now I don't want the open motors to completely dominate either. But we need more parity.

[oldtrackchamp4x]

Make the crate guys put 60 lbs in front of the midplate. Let them keep the 2 in spoiler. As an open motor guy i would be ok with that. I believe the added weight would even things out. Oh, and i don't think crates are killing the class. JMO

[jasjenh]

I clearly understand his post. As I read it people are jumping ship. Same as what is happening at our track. doesn't matter where they go it just matters the numbers are down in our area. I talked with a few guys from some different regions this week and it is not happening all over.

The reason I started this post is to get a feel what is happening in other areas. I think the crate has a place in imca just not for me, as long as they even things out a bit I would consider still racing. I don't think it would take major changes but just some tweaks here and there.

Maybe its just our track, but when you watch the sport mods put on a hell of a show then watch the fans start to leave and watch a single file line of mods. I get it why people are leaving early. Maybe we should all just give in and run the crate to give the fans a good show again.

[jasjenh]

According to him, since imca went to the crate people jumped ship. obviously its not that they wont run a crate in another series. So why did they leave imca for another series if they both have crates? I am sure everyones reasons are different but the fact is they left.

A couple of years ago we had some of the best mod racing in our area. Why I think because of the claim. It kept people in check and yes it sucked when you got claimed but we didn't have people dominating all year long. Now a person can win every race in a season and there is nothing you can do about it except buy the same equipment or find someone that can build better. Either way that is not cheap.

Some of the best racing I seen recently is when they are all crate or all open except for the sportmods. Why because they are all on the same playing field. When you have 10 cars, 5 open and 5 crate, there is too much difference between them and it gets spread out. Right now I believe the crate has a slight advantage. But in the sportmods it seems to be pretty even where we are at.

[oldtrackchamp4x]

This isn't a number I came up with. The 60lb difference, according to the Karl Performance engine department, is about 20- 25lbs difference between Dart heads and GM camel hump heads. And about 35 lbs difference between a Dart Little M block and a GM 010 4 bolt main block. JMO

[DaveBauerSS6]

The Pendulum will swing back to the open motor. IMCA sport Mods softened the A Mod counts in Cali. Everyone but the hard core no crate guys are running well on the crate and enjoying it. The low fixed cost of the crate is enticing to a new guy coming to the class. Karl Chevy was the first to come out with a production volume crate killer and these motors will be refined as time goes on. I built my first crate killer and like the challenge. One positive is the price of a competitive motor went down with the crate. Imca will feed the sponsors by adjusting the rules and the claim motor will come back.

[ask0329]

SCD I understand what your getting at but again, in response to the original question, the crate being introduced in another class is one of the factors, if not the major factor for helping kill the imca mods in the northeast. We are both proving our point just from different aspects.

The second major factor being our regional director retired. Guess who replaced him? NOBODY. IMCA would not appoint another regional director. We now have a "series advisor" who is about as useful as tits on a bull. The tracks up here dont pay either. Generally $45 to start and $250 to win. Meanwhile the CRATE 602 NE DIRT Sportsman are getting $50-100 to start and up to $500-1K to win on a normal night. IMCA mods in the NE are a support class. A second tier class that really nobody sticks around to watch. Once the NE DIRT Big Blocks or the Sportsman run the grandstands empty out.

[modracr41]

READ SLOWLY, I know its hard to understand since its soooo far off topic and has zero relevance to IMCA modifieds..

BUT it clearly says DIRT went to 602 and THAT CLASS HAS become out of control with 30 plus cars..

His post would be exactly the same as a person saying..

yes the crate has killed the IMCA modifieds, the late model rules changed to allow a 602 crate and now that class has the most cars, its so affordable everyone likes it and is racing it.

The problem with the whole crate thing is you're forced to run a chevrolet. There are those of us who prefer other brands. I run Mopar. My buddy runs a Ford. With a Crate mandated class, you can't run either. Also, I beg to differ that a crate is cheaper. It's not. I can build my own open motor with accessories cheaper than you can buy a 604 and accessories. I also don't have to spend money every 8-10 nights on valve springs.

[jasjenh]

stock car driver, I don't see how you can say it has no relevance in imca when you lose cars and tracks. Yes both series have crates but they left to go to a different series for a reason. They obviously didn't like something about imca or the rules package or maybe it was just the payout.

I came up with a fitting name for guys like you. "cratehuggers" kind of like a treehugger but a little different. So are you going to chain yourself to your motor if they give some rules changes to the open guys?

[jasjenh]

Dave that is what happened here most guys quit or went sportmod. As for guys enjoying the crate here, that is not the case. out of the 10 to 12 that show up each week only 2 guys really like the crate. Most guys feel like they were forced into running one to be competitive

I do believe things go in cycles and the open may come back a little but only if some changes are made.

I applaud you for taking on the challenge of running an open because I know what you will be going through.

[RW57]

We have the same thing going on at our local track expect its not open wheel cars . we have a class called super bomber it is actually a sportsman type class late model 4 bar jig cars you can run a 602 and weigh 2350 or a built motor as its called factory vortech heads 2 vr forged pistons roller rockers no cc on heads at 2550 there are 2 cars running 602's one is pretty much winning every week the other is competitive but driver one has more experience. He is laughing all the way to the bank his motor cost 3400 or so the built motors are between 10 to 15 grand depending on who built it. We run in a class with tube back half camaro clipped front 3 link w\ quick change rears its a 15000 dollar car if someone builds you one we built our own.what we are looking at doing is buying a late model roller 3 to 6 thousand dollars a 602 and move up.My point is this we could not afford to do this if we had to build a" built" type motor as they call it.The reason I quit myself over 30 years ago was motor cost the crate would have been a lifesaver for me back then. if we do not move up we will probably buy a 602 even though it only gets a 100# wgt break in our class 2700 vs 2600 for a 602.

[Confused?]

The tech, or lack of, is a track issue. IMCA isn't bending or changing rules for the Crates. The ONLY thing a Crate Modified has that an open motor car doesn't, is the 2" blade. It used to be 3" but that gave the crates too much of an advantage so IMCA cut it down to 2". Who knows what they will change for next season.

At our track, there are only about 6-8 crates. Most guys run open motors. Three of the top four, last weekend were open motors. A crate won by .04 seconds and he started on the front row. FWIW, our track is a dry, 3/8 mile, medium banked track. The crates that run up front are driven by guys that were winning with open motors before. Some spend far more than was ever intended. Some spend less. IMO, the crates are NOT killing the IMCA Modified, and no, I do not support the crate idea. It has helped me realize that people are spending WAY too much on motors and building too big of motors.

There are about a half dozen things that can be checked on the crate by the tech teams. All it takes is a little time and a couple of tools totaling about $300. Not that big of expense for a track. It still falls on the tech team, not the sanctioning body. The body writes the rules and the track's tech team is supposed to enforce them. Ours does. I know this for a fact.

[RW57]

I know they have teched the 602s after the won a couple of championship races I guess they pull v\c to check rocker arms and seal bolts . actually there are 3 of them running and all 3 have won races on one of the cars the driver got back into racing after a lot of years away on count of cost he says he is not spending 10 grand or more on a motor he just wants to have fun.

[RaceTechKs]

Well I see SCD is still the only guy who knows anything. LMAO..... Yes you guys are correct, there are guys out there buying 3 or 4 engines and spending money on dyno time to get the best one. If you have ever checked the tolerance's that GM says they can have you would see why guys try to find the better ones. And yes there are guys out the spending WELL OVER $10.000 to get the Crates put in there cars. I have friend with a 602 that is sharing all the information he gets with his dyno time and all the money and parts he puts on his crate. Its amazing the money he spent to get 380 HP out of his 602. He even did some testing with a 4412 Holley for me just to find the crate only lost 33hp on the 2bbl vs 4bbl. So his Crate is still putting out 348 hp on a 4412 2bbl. And yes I think theres something we could look at and help take money out of the open/spec 2bbl Sportmod or BMods. And YES I have said from the very beginning, just give it time and the Crate will die....

[RaceTechKs]

SCD, Im not telling you nothing.......you are the one that believes everything IMCA or BUILDERS blow up your a$$. They even bought a dyno.....and then YOU believe what they say as far as HP out put....ARE YOU KIDDING ME.????? Anyone knows you can make a dyno read what you want it too...That I have seen with my own eyes. That's why you can put the same engine on 4 different dynos and get 4 different readings.....But you already know that....Right.? And G.M. has now changed the Crate what is it now, 4 times its been updated from Springs to Cams and Pistons and Rods, and every change has given it more HP. And I do believe that IMCA track owners have been told to keep them slick for the Crates to have the advantage. You get the Crates on heavy flat out hammer down tracks and they get theres a$$es handed to them. Also, The guy that shares all the info with me runs 602 and 604 engines. He buys new ones every year and has all the documented dyno time hes done from fresh out of the box with all the stuff the dealers tell you you need and then all the trick after market stuff sold.......yep keep telling yourself theres no difference, your a fool. And I can promise you hes got well over $12.000 in getting his 604 dropped in his car... Yep Crates are cheaper.

[RaceTechKs]

SCD......If you only knew....LMFAO.. Son if I taught you ever thing I knew in one day your head would explode. You don't have a clue. Guys spending real money on Crates are not using chassis dynos. And I do know what changes have been done to the crates.....I have made up nothing, its all fact. Soooo, Smart Guy what is the tolerance or the difference in camshaft lift alone that GM states could be different from one engine to the next. ??? Call them and ask, lets see if they tell you. I will give you a hint, its in print......LOL.

[rustymod]

SCD, Im not telling you nothing.......you are the one that believes everything IMCA or BUILDERS blow up your a$$. They even bought a dyno.....and then YOU believe what they say as far as HP out put....ARE YOU KIDDING ME.????? Anyone knows you can make a dyno read what you want it too...That I have seen with my own eyes. That's why you can put the same engine on 4 different dynos and get 4 different readings.....But you already know that....Right.? And G.M. has now changed the Crate what is it now, 4 times its been updated from Springs to Cams and Pistons and Rods, and every change has given it more HP. And I do believe that IMCA track owners have been told to keep them slick for the Crates to have the advantage. You get the Crates on heavy flat out hammer down tracks and they get theres a$$es handed to them. Also, The guy that shares all the info with me runs 602 and 604 engines. He buys new ones every year and has all the documented dyno time hes done from fresh out of the box with all the stuff the dealers tell you you need and then all the trick after market stuff sold.......yep keep telling yourself theres no difference, your a fool. And I can promise you hes got well over $12.000 in getting his 604 dropped in his car... Yep Crates are cheaper.

thanks for posting. all these crate lovers keep acting like crates are saving the world, the economy and bringing world peace. the truth is running a crate is no cheaper and the bolt on parts to compete with one are driving up the cost. SCD can keep telling everyone how great the out of box crate is but its not the case, not to mention tracks that are now catering to them with the surface being dry.\\

If you are using the almighty world saving crate why do you need to dyno at all ? If they are ALL the same as we keep hearing then whats the point in putting them on dyno, sounds like a HUGE waste of time and money....unless you are doing some changes that you want to monitor and compare.

they just win right out of the crate dont they ????

heck the way I hear it you win races by just having one in your garage and save BIG money, and use less fuel and global climate change is impacted too.

[brett4]

rustymod,do you own a car or pay 100% of the bills???? running a crate is much much cheaper....the coupler and headers are the only thing different...take your current carb and send it to your carb guy and have it calibrated for a crate and he will get you real close......in what world can you run a open motor 50-60 races and get 2 thirds of your money back.....or even run a open motor 50-60 nights with out digging into her????? i agree it suck's for the local machine shops....but how can you wrong with $5800,change the oil and look at the valve's once a month and not worry about her.....plus burn half the fuel......man this just terrible

[brett4]

rustymod,do you own a car or pay 100% of the bills???? running a crate is much much cheaper....the coupler and headers are the only thing different...take your current carb and send it to your carb guy and have it calibrated for a crate and he will get you real close......in what world can you run a open motor 50-60 races and get 2 thirds of your money back.....or even run a open motor 50-60 nights with out digging into her????? i agree it suck's for the local machine shops....but how can you go wrong with $5800,change the oil and look at the valve's once a month and not worry about her.....plus burn half the fuel......man this just terrible

[rustymod]

rustymod,do you own a car or pay 100% of the bills???? running a crate is much much cheaper....the coupler and headers are the only thing different...take your current carb and send it to your carb guy and have it calibrated for a crate and he will get you real close......in what world can you run a open motor 50-60 races and get 2 thirds of your money back.....or even run a open motor 50-60 nights with out digging into her????? i agree it suck's for the local machine shops....but how can you go wrong with $5800,change the oil and look at the valve's once a month and not worry about her.....plus burn half the fuel......man this just terrible

yeah got one and pay bills with open motor...assembled on my own after machine work. BTW did not change a single valve spring all year. All said and done might have 5k in motor total. running E85 no issues with fuel costs either. So tell me again how I would save money with a crate ? Ran fine all year long no issues and guess what when it needs rebuilt I will send parts off and do it all over again.....I dont need or want a crate.

[rustymod]

strange...every crate racer I know is changing valve springs every 10-15 nights, and if you look in the crate late section of this board you will even see a post where racers are doing to the same thing


http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?339813-602-valve-springs


SCD if you got 60 nights good for you. I can typically get 40 nights without a rebuild, unless there is an issue. have gone longer but prefer to go at the 40 point to be safe and for performance. In general I have no issues with the crates but I am seeing more and more tracks not using water as much and not grooming the tracks to keep things dry...and this does help those running a crate. This I do not agree with. I want the playing field to be even but from what I see the spoiler and dry track on 1/2 mile is an advantage for crates.

[rustymod]

Rusty this your link is to a thread about a 602 that is NOT the crate ran in IMCA modifieds this thread is about!!!

Heres a link to a thread about the actual crate used in IMCA modifieds.

http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?349906-how-often-to-change-behive-springs

Ive been on way way way more heavy tracks this season than dry, around Iowa. Maybe they didn't get the crate memo you guys are always claiming is going around for track prep?

I had 60 nights on that crate when I sold it with a car, it has about 100 on it now according to the new owner. And local late models around here that have ran the same crate but more rpm have ran them over 200 nights...


the guys we pit next too have been changing every 10 nights with there IMCA crate....so I guess someone needs to enlighten them....

I am happy with open motor and there are room for both in the class.

the real culprit to ruining it for everyone are the UMP bmods where they are FORCING you to run a crate, with no other option, thus we have run no more UMP.

[CsR41]

Local tracks are trying to get UMP to back off forcing us to run crates.. Lets hope it works out.

[sirleafalot]

Local tracks are trying to get UMP to back off forcing us to run crates.. Lets hope it works out. this is great to hear ! We ran the Hobby Mod class at FALS and really like it. all the tracks around us are running UMP B mods which require a crate which is silly. Would really like to see track promoters get UMPs attention on this deal, not everyone wants to run a crate.

[CsR41]

Our engine rules need a revamping IMO, some guys are 13:1 355ci.. But I agree, let us run crate or open.. and don't penalize the guys who want to run an open!

[sirleafalot]

Our engine rules need a revamping IMO, some guys are 13:1 355ci.. But I agree, let us run crate or open.. and don't penalize the guys who want to run an open! agreed, this UMP deal of adding more weight until all are forced into crates is just wrong, and glad to hear promoters are going to push back. UMP A mods are out of hand engine wise IMO, but crates only is not the answer either. at this point I am thrilled that FALS has an alternative at least.

[sirleafalot]

crates work great when you can install all the parts you need..here is how.but just ask anyone there is no cheating in the crates lmao http://www.ebay.com/itm/602-Crate-engine-bolts-/321912702609?roken=cUgayN

[Towers21]

The 4 link ruined modifieds!

[RaceTechKs]

You know..... You hear every year that the guys running Crates have guys waiting in line to buy these things..... IF AND I MEAN IF this was true, WITH all the crate users out there now and as long as the Crate has been being used in racing now.... That would mean everyone racing would have a Crate by now.......AND THEY DONT. And as for DYNO TIME.....the guys I am talking about spend a lot of money on Engine Dynos... They try several sets of Headers, Carbs, Ignition, Fuel, and others to find every ounce of power.....And Yes these guys win a lot of races. And anyone who knows anything, Knows they don't give that Dyno Time away.... And now they find a cheated crate in East Coast Mods..... But they have a TEAR DOWN RULE.... And that's what needs done with the crates, TEAR THEM DOWN..... Now let the crate babies start crying.....

[stpmotorsports]

RaceTechKs, your reference to guys spending a lot of money on dyno time in order to get everything out of their crate, is irrelevant. We have 2 open engines and 1 crate, all to run UMP b-mod, and we have spent just as much time on the dyno with the open engines as we have the crate. It doesn't matter which engine it is, we want to get the most out of it. I am not a fan of the crate personally, I do believe that the rules for us this season were pretty close with the 2 options. We won a lot of races with the open, but also got beat a few times by a crate.
I can also add, we bought our crate directly from Weir Chevrolet in Red Bud, IL. Box stock, out of the crate with a good willys carb, beyea headers and Jones setup on the front, we had about $6000 in everything. After tuning the carb and timing, went 370rwhp, which is right in the ballpark of most built 355s that I have worked with.

[let-r-eat]

Every racetrack you went to 25 years ago the track champion was an engine machine shop owner or someone who was in close cahoots with one. This brought on the buy it mentality. People wanted to compete and they couldn't because the guy building the engines was racing next to them every week. The "buy it to compete" era started.

The crate is a decent thing for people with the means to "buy it". I've seen more people win because they actually have talent since the crate has been brought into existence. The crate has been a good thing for the "BUY IT" racers but a bad thing for the "MAKE IT" racer.

[jasjenh]

Just a little update. I started this thread because I was seeing a trend at our local tracks. Now I know it is true in our area after the season wrapped up. Two years ago we had 18 cars on average. This season we started with a 12 car average. 50/50 crate vs open. By the end of the year we were down to 5 cars all crates. As a promoter I would be worried.

Basically what happened, one of the hold out veteran drivers finally bought a crate and won 12 in a row. With no claim or exchange or tech people got frustrated and just quit coming to the track. I get it at the big specials everyone runs a crate and that's fine but at a local level not everyone wants to run a crate and its killing the numbers around here.

Its sad to say but I hung up the helmet after 20 years. If you don't have a sliver of hope for a win why be there. When I talked to Root about it I was told to go to B-mods because that sounds like all I could afford. Well we are racing for 400.00 to win why should we need to spend 50000 a year to race locally. I get it on the big specials you are going to have heavy hitters that are going to spend what ever it takes to win.

Not sure what the answer is and I think the crate was the right choice short term to bring down engine costs but there needs to be parity between the open and crate. Its sure has turned into "buy it" class. When the mod class was developed it was to give an average guy a chance to race because late models got out of hand. Looks like history is repeating itself.

[dirtrace09]

What is "killing racing" is the changing of the times. There is less interest from the younger kids than in the past. I teach junior high students and have for many years. There is a definite switch in their activities and interests. There is also a major change in family dynamics. Couple that with a change in economic times for many families and you can see the change. Movie theaters, amusement parks, etc... have all seen a down turn in their economics. This isn't a "sky is falling" problem. There are still many local tracks that are thriving. We have lost some also. The fact is that if we have drivers "retire" or stop driving and we don't replace them with someone, the field shrinks. I can go on and on about factors that are supposedly killing our sport, but I will stop. It is simple and always has been. Some will be faster than others. Some will spend more than others. Some will complain more than others. Some will work harder that others. Some will learn more than others. And some will stop and blame others. That is life!

[rustymod]

Just a little update. I started this thread because I was seeing a trend at our local tracks. Now I know it is true in our area after the season wrapped up. Two years ago we had 18 cars on average. This season we started with a 12 car average. 50/50 crate vs open. By the end of the year we were down to 5 cars all crates. As a promoter I would be worried.

Basically what happened, one of the hold out veteran drivers finally bought a crate and won 12 in a row. With no claim or exchange or tech people got frustrated and just quit coming to the track. I get it at the big specials everyone runs a crate and that's fine but at a local level not everyone wants to run a crate and its killing the numbers around here.

Its sad to say but I hung up the helmet after 20 years. If you don't have a sliver of hope for a win why be there. When I talked to Root about it I was told to go to B-mods because that sounds like all I could afford. Well we are racing for 400.00 to win why should we need to spend 50000 a year to race locally. I get it on the big specials you are going to have heavy hitters that are going to spend what ever it takes to win.

Not sure what the answer is and I think the crate was the right choice short term to bring down engine costs but there needs to be parity between the open and crate. Its sure has turned into "buy it" class. When the mod class was developed it was to give an average guy a chance to race because late models got out of hand. Looks like history is repeating itself.

good post pointing out that not all is perfect in a crate world. The other thing that I keep hearing is that promoters are altering track conditions to help crates, like leaving the track dryer some weeks. As some others have mentioned the worst situation is UMP B mods where they are forcing the class into crates as the ONLY option. I predict this will come back to bite UMP. At least with IMCA the crate is still only an option.

[50j]

Those UMP tracks will lose cars and spectators with a rule like that. No spectators, no concession or ticket sales. The tracks may want to consider going IMCA or USRA. The crate should be an option but not the only option, and the rules should give both an equal chance of winning. People by nature like to have choices.

[stockcar5]

Car counts overall didn't change around here due to the crate. A track i race at struggled to get 8-10 mods. One show had a whopping 6 cars with 3 finishing the race. Motor is a small part of the expense of the mod.

[let-r-eat]

I hate seeing racing fall off and would basically support anything that brought more cars to the track and made it cheaper on a racer. Crates haven't been a bad thing but they are just a "buy it' solution. The days of going to the local junk yard and pulling out your SBC and taking it home and with a couple hundred bucks you have something to race with that could win are over. Has this been bad for the sport? Sure. Has it ruined the sport? heck no. People that want to race will find a way.

I would like to see it much easier to want to race. The lowest class at the track costing 10 or 15 thousand dollars minimum to be competitive is just killing the want because people can't even experience it to know they want to. These 50 and 100 thousand plus dollar cars are killing the sport more than any crate engine ever could IMO.

Back in the day a $1K set of heads would make you a top regional racer. Now everyone has that type stuff.

[powerslide]

Back in the day a $1K set of heads would make you a top regional racer. Now everyone has that type stuff.

Most castings cost that much now days.

[jasjenh]

stock car driver you can take your comments and shove them up your *ss. You don't know me or what I am worth. If you raced with me and had an attitude like that you would be hanging on the front stretch wall every night. all you do is talk down to people. enough talking to the problem.

I agree there are more reasons people are quitting but one big one in our area is guys don't want to switch to a crate. and its not a money problem. They are standing up for themselves and the local engine builders. I always built all my own motors and we always did quite well. top 4 is not a challenge but the win is a different story . when the leader checks out by a half lap on second place and he has a crate too something isn't right. But there is no tech on the crate. I was actually told by the tech guy this year one night I almost won, that if I won they were going to tear me down because I must be cheating to beat a crate. Yet they didn't even look at the winners car. Talk about frustrating.

Hopefully something changes (not just the motor rules) to get some numbers back. I am not the guy that writes the rules so I don't know what the answer is. maybe if people keep talking about it someone will have a good idea and we can get some numbers again. Its no fun seeing a sport I put so much time into over the years go down hill.

[50j]

It sounds to me like the rules or tech is bad in some places, not necessarily an engine related problem.

[let-r-eat]

I with ya Jasjenh on that. I think the crate should be just another choice in a catalog. If the racer wants to choose it then he can. No special treatment for anything is the best route IMO.

I always thought putting a gauge legal 2bbl on an open engine v/s putting a 4bbl on the crate was a crazy idea and very evident of the motivation behind such a move.

[rustymod]

Ha ha, I guess I was too close to the truth?? If your worth isn't enough to satisfy your racing wants now, then hanging me on the wall is a great solution, after a week or two of that you would spend more repairing your own car and in lost purse money to buy that MEXICAN Crate motor you are claiming has caused you to quit racing. No wonder you had to quit you aint too smart..

fyi- IMCA rules are out. no spoiler on crate that's the only meaningful change..

So you can buy a 450hp crate motor for $6000 or a built motor that weighs the exact same for 7-17,000 and have any amount of hp advantage you want!

if you are spending 7k on an open motor than shame on you no reason to. Crate is not the only option, happy to hear no spoiler for crates. Since the crates are so awesome and they are fixing the economy saving the planet from poverty and global warming then they dont need any breaks to be able to compete.

[rustymod]

A lot of real racers like myself assemble our own and dont have to rely on the crate. I like many others go to auctions and buy used parts or swap meets and enjoy the process of finding what I need and having it machined. I do not need or want a crate.

There are lots of other options to the crate.

Call Gade Motors no core needed $4500

(563)-452-3547

high time for the engine component aftermarket mfg's to get a hold of IMCA and UMP and tell them they are dropping any sponsorship monies if crate is the only engine offered or if the breaks for the crates are not creating a level playing field.

Recently there was a big money race up north where they discouraged the use of a crate offered not breaks and made engine rules the same for all and was sponsored by aftermarket parts companies.

The crate BS is getting out of hand.

[rustymod]

I think your talking about the aftermarket nationals, you must not really know anything about that race though since...... No crates were allowed period.

10k to win at marshalltown about 3 hours from me. How did you do there? What's your car number?

so you build better motors than Gade ? He seems to win a few races. Never said you were not a real racer, but if you want to get into a pissing contest I am up for it.

Order all parts new eh, great glad you can do so.

[sirleafalot]

I saw the advert for the NO crate race and I was glad to see it. Stock Car, I have no affiliation with you or Rusty but what your issue with Gade ? I am a customer of his and Brian is a good guy to deal with and we had zero issues with anything we have every gotten. I am not in IMCA country closest track is almost 3 hours. I am against the Crates because for B-Mods right now UMP is not offering another option they keep adding weight and mandating crates only and racers and promoters are starting to complain. I can also tell you that as some have posted on here, in IMCA country I am starting to here a lot of complaints about promoters not watering track to help out the crate cars.

[sirleafalot]

Numbers look good on dyno for the Ford deal, and I have yet to hear of one letting go.... You say you cant build a good motor for 4500..huh so I guess the magic number is the price of the crate then ??

[sirleafalot]

I saw the hp and torque numbers for the Ford crate deal that Gade is selling for $4500 and it looks good plus I am not hearing of any having issues. According to your post you cannot build a good motor for $4500. Is the magic price needed to build a good racing motor the same as the price for the crate ?

[rustymod]

$4500 won't buy the parts to build a decent engine. Period.

Last I knew they wanted 5500 for their ford supposed crate killer. With oem 302 block crap heads cast crank cheap parts.

Wow you are just a know it all. Wow what magazine are writing for these days ???? You really should be charging for your info on 4m.
Let us know when you will be holding your seminar and how much you will be charging.

The question remains since you have so much knowledge why do you need to run a crate. With all your superior racing knowledge everyone on 4m knows you could build an open motor than could out run a crate.
So why do you need a crate then.

Please oh wise one bless us with more of your BS.

[sirleafalot]

I wont speak for Rusty, not my beef and I do not have the dyno sheets for the $4500 motor. Brian is not hiding info the motor deal though. I do not own the crate killer package. I have a different setup, so I cant post what I dont own. best of luck. I will say that I think a good engine can be built for less than the crate, as I have done and ran all last year without engine issues. Crate is not the only answer.

[RaceTechKs]

Well, let me tell you a little story. We are starting to see exactly what some of us has said would happen with these crates.. and that's, FAILURE. I personally know of 5 604 crates that were used at two tracks that did not have more then 10 races on any of the 5 and they either blew up, broke or started pumping water. All of which came from Freison Chevrolet [sp] and every one of them was the racers fault....... Now my question is how in the hell is a blown head gasket the racers fault and the head surface only had .003 warp. AND then they want $4200.00 to fix it..... Are you freaking kidding me. And don't let SCD blow smoke up your back side. He wants to talk about good parts. I can promise you the Crates do not good parts in them........IF you think they do just turn them 7000 rpm for a short time on the track and you will see there junk. There is no way to compare a built engine to a crate engine as far as parts go..... And take your crate back and have it torn apart like you should and see what that cost you. And yes you can build a open for what you will have in a crate, and you can do the same thing with your open as they do with there crates and that's sell it every year and get a new one..... Stupid, LMAO. Compare Apples to Apples.... Don't listen to SCD because he will tell you Crates are the only way to go, IMCA is the only way to go......But I bet if he was to race on heavy hammer down tracks and not the slicked off dusty crap IMCA has asked for he would not be running crates.....What a joke..

[buzzxxx666]

fyi- the rules have been out since Friday, no spoiler on crate.

lets see how crates do with no spoiler. Last machinist I talked to said crate parts when torn down are far from good.
So if the crate cost you $5500, I feel confident that with a little effort and good investigation you can still build a decent program for the same money without going crate.

Have also heard several racers saying that for the right kind of bread you can get "upgrades " to your crate when its in for rebuild.

this deal is going to boomerang soon enough.

[buzzxxx666]

What sanction are you talking about? This thread is supposed to be about imca and imca doesn't allow rebuilds.

imca does not allow rebuilds....then what exactly does Speedway offer for IMCA engines...

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Featured/Racing-Engines

Besides you can buy sealing bolts, and do it yourself, no matter what IMCA rules and its happening...

[RaceTechKs]

SCD, I don't care where you race or what you race. I have never claimed to know you (only to know of you) and have only seen you race once. I don't care where you live or what you do for a living. The only thing I do care about is all the BS you spread on here. I can tell you there are a lot of people on here that are tired of you thinking YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT KNOWS ANYTHING. There area few on here that are pretty sharp and give help when needed, and not jump in an and tell them what they were just told was wrong and then put your two cents in. YOU ARE NOT the know it all you think you are. And the reason IMCA don't allow rebuilds is it costs them money because Sponsors that don't sell engines don't sponsor your series for very long. And why are people paying to break in engines, Guys buying crates can't do it them selves. Hell theres enough information on the web about crates that everyone knows what makes the most power as far as bolt-ons go, so get them, bolt them on and break it in. OH that's right the crates have a cam issue when breaking them in don't they, So then check your plugs tune it and go. OH and as far as Tampered Crates, I personally caught 2 this year and know of three more that were caught. And no we did not make it public and don't have to, just like IMCA kept the Illegal MSD boxes (3) they caught quiet that I know of. And yes the guys caught were dealt with as per the rules on the engines. So keep thinking its not happening....know it all. It may not be happening where you are, but that's only because there not looking for it and not teching like they should. OK..Your Turn and I can do this all day.

[50j]

SCD, well done with the built engine. For someone wanting the same hp and tq curve as the 604 but a little more power that looks great.

[CHRISTINE]

This is why mine are boke in on dyno

(4. People pay to have crate engines broken in because if it breaks on the dyno its still the dealers.)


This whole cheated crate stuff is getting old people cheat with open motors to lol. There might be cheated ones out there but just because a guy is fast with a crate doesnt mean its cheated.

Since the crates lost the spoiler whats gona be everyones excuse next? ive ran with no spoiler and just had to tighten my car up a lil on entry no biggie.

[buzzxxx666]

This is why mine are boke in on dyno

(4. People pay to have crate engines broken in because if it breaks on the dyno its still the dealers.)


This whole cheated crate stuff is getting old people cheat with open motors to lol. There might be cheated ones out there but just because a guy is fast with a crate doesnt mean its cheated.

Since the crates lost the spoiler whats gona be everyones excuse next? ive ran with no spoiler and just had to tighten my car up a lil on entry no biggie.

i am tired of pro crate crowd constantly crowing about how awesome they are, if so then zero rule breaks should be given oh and the promoters need to quick catering to the crates with the dry tracks.
Also just because it says CRATE, does not mean you get a free pass on tech either.
Other than that I dont care what the hell people do with crates. Crates are not the world saver as we keep hearing, are they an option sure. The constant political BS to push crates are just that. You want to run a crate super but no reason everyone else should be forced into it.

[rustymod]

i am tired of pro crate crowd constantly crowing about how awesome they are, if so then zero rule breaks should be given oh and the promoters need to quick catering to the crates with the dry tracks.
Also just because it says CRATE, does not mean you get a free pass on tech either.
Other than that I dont care what the hell people do with crates. Crates are not the world saver as we keep hearing, are they an option sure. The constant political BS to push crates are just that. You want to run a crate super but no reason everyone else should be forced into it.

One more thing. I know of a racer that runs in MN in the sport mod class against the 602 crate...twice this year there were issues with crate engines somehow turning 7200-7500 without a miss in the engine...racer blamed it on the MSd box, and promoter let em switch it out.....

602 has hyd cam, but hey no ones cheating up those crate right ????? dont believe it for once sec

[RaceTechKs]

Wait a second, I know for a fact that IMCA will allow the crates to be repaired. And I also know that IMCA does not have an official standing there when these engines are repaired. DO THEY Know it all..... I know for a fact of a 604 that was sent to Carl's Chevrolet and had to have two pistons replaced that only had 4 races on it, It also had to have the valves in those two cylinders replaced. It had to be completely taken apart, cleaned and reassembled. The engine was completely together when it was resealed with the IMCA cable seals...... NOT ONE TIME when this was done did an IMCA official check a single thing being done to this engine........... That's what one of the guys in the shop told the guy that owns the engine, He Said that with Carl's being a dealer and repair center approved by IMCA they hardly ever see anyone from IMCA..... So Smart guy whats really being done to those engines if its my buddy having something done..........I KNOW..... YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE.....But your going to tell everyone you do. Blow your smoke up someone else's back side and fog there vision with your BS but your not going to convince me with your BS....

[buzzxxx666]

Wait a second, I know for a fact that IMCA will allow the crates to be repaired. And I also know that IMCA does not have an official standing there when these engines are repaired. DO THEY Know it all..... I know for a fact of a 604 that was sent to Carl's Chevrolet and had to have two pistons replaced that only had 4 races on it, It also had to have the valves in those two cylinders replaced. It had to be completely taken apart, cleaned and reassembled. The engine was completely together when it was resealed with the IMCA cable seals...... NOT ONE TIME when this was done did an IMCA official check a single thing being done to this engine........... That's what one of the guys in the shop told the guy that owns the engine, He Said that with Carl's being a dealer and repair center approved by IMCA they hardly ever see anyone from IMCA..... So Smart guy whats really being done to those engines if its my buddy having something done..........I KNOW..... YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE.....But your going to tell everyone you do. Blow your smoke up someone else's back side and fog there vision with your BS but your not going to convince me with your BS....

thanks for jumping in RaceTech, I agree with your comments and have heard others complain. The Speedway site claims they can repair crates also.....and re-seal with approved seals. But as has been shown on here you can buy sealing bolts and do whatever you want.

[leadfoot_35]

I used to be against the crate engine because I used to build my own. I took 2015 off from racing but was still at the track every week with friends. Drove for a friend who had a crate and it was my first experience. Ended up winning the heat race and feature leading every lap in both. That was the 4th night out on the car ad my first time in a car all year. I will say I had to take back everything I ever said about the crate. The crate is pretty easy to drive. I would still prefer to build my own engines but in my class if you have the open motors you have to run a 2 barrel carb and weigh 200 lbs more. They are forcing our hands in getting the crates. I will be getting a crate.

[passingtime]

Every one should get to have the same body and weight rules. Period!!!!!After all it is a motor contest!!!!

[raceking26]

Passing time, what are you talking about??? In imca the body rules and weight rules ARE the same between crate and open! In the sportmod and a mod class....

[Racer111]

Crates are good for the sport I hear racers I want to build my own engine few garage builders can compete against a professional engine builder. Some say easy to cheat a crate .Its a lot easier to tech it then a open engine rules .No matter what the rules are some racers will try to cheat. Crate add ons cost more not true you can buy 2k set of headers for open or crate..same with carbs...If you believe all the hype about crates cost 10-20k BS your a fool..I have spent more money fixing a open engine then a crate cost. With a crates there no more wondering what does he have a 415 a 380 turning 9k rpm ???? Its the same story as always work on your chassis learn how to drive and you will win...Ive seen a lot of racers get out because of engine cost crate prob will save a few more from getting out..

[GavinHunyady187]

Passing time, what are you talking about??? In imca the body rules and weight rules ARE the same between crate and open! In the sportmod and a mod class....


FWIW in Michigan the crate motor never got a spoiler, AND has to add 50lbs of lead in front of the motor plate... and a crate won 8 races at the best prepared track in the state. Open motors won more at the track that was always dry and slick. Open motors have a 6800rpm chip rule and the claim is only $750. My take is that the same guys will run up front regardless, all the guys winning are good racers and are working hard on their stuff.

I race up here, I want to run some of the national races. I have some problems though. I DONT want to add lead for the crate, and I am not opposed to spending more for a better engine for big money races with you boys in Iowa.

Does it make sense to get a crate? or with this year's rules removing the spoilers, will the open engines have an advantage (lighter, more power, etc)

[GavinHunyady187]

Ive always known about your rules up there, not sure why those aren't the same ones here in Iowa.

seems to work, CMS gets ~30cars a night...

so same question... does the crate still seem to have an advantage without the spoiler?
(not a rhetorical question, I really want to know)

[passingtime]

Crate motors are lighter, Hence more rear percentage, if both have matching total weight after the race. Year end specials that ran both IMCA and USRA. The opens always had to add weight in front for aluminum heads. No matter what aluminum heads you were running. More if not running 23 degree heads.So removing the spoiler and adding weight in front of the mid shift plate evens out the field. JMHOProbably does not answer your question. But weight placement in the right places is a plus to get then to work right.

[GavinHunyady187]

Crate motors are lighter, Hence more rear percentage, if both have matching total weight after the race. Year end specials that ran both IMCA and USRA. The opens always had to add weight in front for aluminum heads. No matter what aluminum heads you were running. More if not running 23 degree heads.So removing the spoiler and adding weight in front of the mid shift plate evens out the field. JMHOProbably does not answer your question. But weight placement in the right places is a plus to get then to work right.

I'm onboard with that logic, its really the basis of my question, but the proof I trust is in results. What is happening in the races we've seen in NM and AZ so far?

FWIW I have no problem building a lightweight open motor that is lighter than the crate, but maybe thats not the answer? Maybe the roller cam makes the power where its needed? IDK, but I figured results are the best answer.

[GavinHunyady187]

Of course the crate is winning in az. There are 4-5 open and 50 crates there.

The advantage was the spoiler and the alum heads reducing the over all weight. The crate is easy to drive because of the low hp, low rpm, heavy rotating assembly.

If we had to add 50# in the rest of imca land I bet there would be more open engines racing.

I'll run both and stick with whatever I feel is faster for me.

That's a good point in regards to the mix of engines, I dont have any idea what that is like across the country.

If there weren't the 50# penalty I would just buy a crate, but I dont want to change my car that much to swap engines. (maybe I'm over thinking it)

My instinct is matching your statement about the spoiler being the big advantage. The easy answer is to buy both, but thats what I'm trying to avoid just because I would rather have the $6k in cash than engines.

[GavinHunyady187]

Are you winning with your open engine now?

I hold my own at my local track, won a few heats, run top 5's... can transfer out of B-mains at will if needed. This will be my first season focused on the IMCA mod, I ran a couple different classes last year.

I'm not expecting to buy wins, but I don't want to take a shovel to a gun fight either when I go to the nationals.

back to the lecture at hand, I liked your approach to making an open motor with the smooth torque curve and low RPM. I might employ that idea if I cant think of another reason for the crate to have an advantage... lots of variables to consider but I wish I could use a hyd roller profile.

[FourDeepInTheFluff]

When we will see the day that the CT525 is allowed in modifieds? I don't have enough knowledge to know the pros/cons on this so would someone enlighten me?

[Hemm]

USRA Modifieds allow CT525 crate

[powerslide]

USRA Modifieds allow CT525 crate

But require so much extra weight they are not competitive anymore.