Format idea

[hucktyson]

Why not qualify everyone and divide into heats as usual and then pull an invert pill of 6,8,10 and then do passing points if you insist on that absurdity ?? Even 2 rounds of that ?? Pulling numbers out of a hat makes for radically different strength levels of each heat race and isn't fair for guys towing 10 hours. To prevent sandbagging make the fast 2 times locked in on the front row like the old dtwc format !!

[plunks7]

Just do it the way I-80 does it. No time trials to deal with. Which would also save the track.

[hucktyson]

How do you get even strength heat races without time trials ??

[plunks7]

Huck. just look at there format. You race to get in. All passing points. Two heats for all drivers. Invert heats so you race against different drivers and positions. Top 16 to 20 in passing points locked in the first night.

[onlyfacts]

Knoxville by far has the best format.. Points for Quailifing then heats are top 8 invert with points for finish of heat then top 8 in points from Quailifing and Heats get invert for Prelimary feature with points for that... Add Quailifing, heat and Feature points together and that is how they line up the 100 lapper... Best format period. I am sure someone can explain it more in detail but what you don't get at Knoxville is heat, prelimary or A Main with stacked or unstacked because of pill draw. If you haven't made the trip put it on your bucket list because Knoxville is the best track with the best format with some of the best racing anywhere.

[plunks7]

The only part that I don't like is Qualifying. It sucks!!!! Straight up racing to get in.

[onlyfacts]

The only part that I don't like is Qualifying. It sucks!!!! Straight up racing to get in.Quailifing is necessary to eliminate stacked and unstacked heats... Pill draw doesn't work. Eldora had some heats loaded and some were really weak because of pill draw group Quailifing.

[plunks7]

Quailifing is necessary to eliminate stacked and unstacked heats... Pill draw doesn't work. Eldora had some heats loaded and some were really weak because of pill draw group Quailifing.

Re-Read post #4 please. Not arguing with you. But it certainly helps out with the Lower funding Teams. Race your way in!!!! Not by Timing. It is racing right? It's beginning to be like Nascrap. There is only about 7 to 10 guys that win. If you take these guys and have their own feature. It would be a Great show. If you take the next 25 to 30 that would be one FANTASTIC race. It would be much harder to pick a winner out of the 2nd group. Not many people would know who they are!!!!

If you go back to when racing was racing. With none of this chassis B.S. and Tire Crap. And when any driver would help out his fellow competitor. The fastest car started in the BACK. Now you have the so-called big shots crying because they don't want to race there way in. They rely on timing. What a joke!!!!! So as I see it the real racers came from back in the GLORY days. Those drivers Never said a thing starting in the back. Those were the drivers that were very proud starting in the back. Because they knew they were the top Dawg for that night. How proud was that driver starting 24th and winning. Compared to timing fast and starting out front. LONG LIVE THE GOOD OLE DAYS!!!!!!!!! Sorry had to vent a little bit. I've been having a rough go for the last couple of weeks.

[tb1545]

Back in the good ol days you also had guys that stunk up the field. They would start in the back and lap the field. And there were still 5 or 6 guys that did the winning. You had 40 cars show up for a late model race and 15 of them would be pure stocks, 15 of them would be superstocks and 10 of them would be redneck engineered late models that hoped this weeks 8th grade geometry/physics experiment leads them to victory. We forget as time goes on the bad parts of the good ol days.. We don't get reminded of them because 4m and Facebook haven't been around long enough to rub it in our faces every throw back Thursday. Believe it or not there is better competition throughout the field and more drivers with a shot at winning now days even with less cars in the fields than there was 20-30 years ago.

[onlyfacts]

Re-Read post #4 please. Not arguing with you. But it certainly helps out with the Lower funding Teams. Race your way in!!!! Not by Timing. It is racing right? It's beginning to be like Nascrap. There is only about 7 to 10 guys that win. If you take these guys and have their own feature. It would be a Great show. If you take the next 25 to 30 that would be one FANTASTIC race. It would be much harder to pick a winner out of the 2nd group. Not many people would know who they are!!!! If you go back to when racing was racing. With none of this chassis B.S. and Tire Crap. And when any driver would help out his fellow competitor. The fastest car started in the BACK. Now you have the so-called big shots crying because they don't want to race there way in. They rely on timing. What a joke!!!!! So as I see it the real racers came from back in the GLORY days. Those drivers Never said a thing starting in the back. Those were the drivers that were very proud starting in the back. Because they knew they were the top Dawg for that night. How proud was that driver starting 24th and winning. Compared to timing fast and starting out front. LONG LIVE THE GOOD OLE DAYS!!!!!!!!! Sorry had to vent a little bit. I've been having a rough go for the last couple of weeks.Guess we might as well make dirt late racing a democratic Obama platform. Where we take from the rich or better teams and give to the poor or less prepared teams. Great plan. Might as well do handicaping as well Davenport proably at -2 laps handcap in 100 lap races that way it will make things more fair. The Democratic Obama Dirt Late Model Series. DODLMS

[hucktyson]

So you think a low buck team going to a race and having a stacked heat where 3 or 4 national stars end up in the b main is helping them out ??? Having an even amount of fast cars in every heat is the most fair thing you can do to help out the little guy.

[hucktyson]

With this stacked heat mega invert format it's entirely possible that the fastest car doesn't even make the show. Under a sane format of having even strength heat races as established by qualifying most of the super fast guys transfer through their heat which gives the " low buck " guy a much better chance in the b main. Under your concept you might have 6 superstars in a b main that were fast enough to transfer through the heat but started too far back ... I'm a conservative so I want equal opportunity where clearly you are a radical leftist and you want equal results ...

[huskerdirt]

Double heats with passing points is the way to go. Your second heat is inverted by how you STARTED the first heat. Also they mix it up so there is different competition in each heat. Your first heat might by stacked, but your 2nd won't be and vice versa. Some guys struggle with it, but most don't.

If you win one of your heats, you are in the show basically. In the 5 years for the SDN. A heat winner has never not qualified for the A main. A few have had to run the b main, but they were usually on the front row anyway.

The key to this format working is having the right track to race on. You can't take this format anywhere in the country and expect it to work. Mostly because tracks don't know how to prep for it and some tracks aren't racey no matter how you slice it.

[buster83]

what do u call a lower funding team if they are showing up to race with national touring race cars they are there to race. so they should have plenty of tires and shocks or least being handed down other then that nobody has any sympathy for them, but they happy there giving it there best.

[hucktyson]

I didn't say give anyone a fuking handout !!! I said equal opportunity by having even strength heat races !!! That's all !!! Pulling numbers out of a hat results in uneven heat races . How are you people soo fuking stupid as to not understand that basic concept ???

[huskerdirt]

I didn't say give anyone a fuking handout !!! I said equal opportunity by having even strength heat races !!! That's all !!! Pulling numbers out of a hat results in uneven heat races . How are you people soo fuking stupid as to not understand that basic concept ???

No heat race ever will be even strength for you.

Now go let your rage out by lifting some weights and b!tching about how the help you hire can't hack it.

[hucktyson]

A heat race that is lined up by going down the qualifying list from
Top to bottom as has been done for generations by definition creates even heat races. Granted some fast guys may qualify poorly on a given night and they may slightly skew some but that would be the exception. And you are correct that the guys I hire can't " hack it " a guy half as good and half as productive as me would make 150k working here and that's unheard of in residential construction. But in bam bams America people don't want to work because their radical islamofascist leader told them they don't have to work ...

[hucktyson]

And it's 7:51 fella ... I left the gym an hour ago ...

[TALON75]

Know your history or your doomed to repeat it! The reason you have the format like it is now is because qualifing 100 plus cars always gave the advantage to the early draws. Now they group qualify so the track is relatively the same for your group. Your system would not work out the way you describe, it would still come down to the luck of the draw for qualifing order.

I say they keep it the same except the final night heats need to be straight up. Everyone has spent two days earning there spots, no need to invert at that point.

[lmfan71]

Why would a top tier team want to start in the back, and have to risk tearing his equipment up. Can't blame them one bit, having to pass the slower out of control cars. Just like at Eldora the slower cars are a hazard, nothing against them for trying it once, but it is dangerous.

[Barbecueboy]

A heat race that is lined up by going down the qualifying list from
Top to bottom as has been done for generations by definition creates even heat races. Granted some fast guys may qualify poorly on a given night and they may slightly skew some but that would be the exception. And you are correct that the guys I hire can't " hack it " a guy half as good and half as productive as me would make 150k working here and that's unheard of in residential construction. But in bam bams America people don't want to work because their radical islamofascist leader told them they don't have to work ...
So who told you that you didn't have to race but could still call yourself a racer???

Vroom , vroom,vroom,..........watch out for the pushmower and weed whacker while your garage hotlappin this morning.

They are both pissed you ran them into the shovel and rake last race.

[25drtrkr]

Know your history or your doomed to repeat it! The reason you have the format like it is now is because qualifing 100 plus cars always gave the advantage to the early draws. Now they group qualify so the track is relatively the same for your group. Your system would not work out the way you describe, it would still come down to the luck of the draw for qualifing order.

I say they keep it the same except the final night heats need to be straight up. Everyone has spent two days earning there spots, no need to invert at that point.

Listen up.....that's a racer/crew member talkin! Good post Talon!

[Barbecueboy]

Listen up.....that's a racer/crew member talkin! Good post Talon!

Talon speaks the truth..........hucky speaks aloof.

[onlyfacts]

Know your history or your doomed to repeat it! The reason you have the format like it is now is because qualifing 100 plus cars always gave the advantage to the early draws. Now they group qualify so the track is relatively the same for your group. Your system would not work out the way you describe, it would still come down to the luck of the draw for qualifing order. I say they keep it the same except the final night heats need to be straight up. Everyone has spent two days earning there spots, no need to invert at that point.You must be talking A and B group type of format. Not heat group Quailifing big difference. A and b group is half the field qualifing against each other which is a good system... Group Quailifing by heat race draw is completely different... Your are only Quailifing against the cars that drew in order for that heat... This doesn't not work because heats end up with cars by luck of draw. 12 hears at Eldora some had 5-6 cars within .2 tenths of each other and some had fast time guy .5-6 tenths better than the next and the next guy .5-6 tenths better than the next. But you are correct if you are referring to A and B group Quailifing that system seems to work. Formats like I-80 only works if the track is prepared right and the track is shaped to be one groove... Unfortunately not all tracks are that way.

[plunks7]

Why would a top tier team want to start in the back, and have to risk tearing his equipment up. Can't blame them one bit, having to pass the slower out of control cars. Just like at Eldora the slower cars are a hazard, nothing against them for trying it once, but it is dangerous.

See that's the difference between a top "Tear" driver to me. If your so fricking good start in the back and pass cars. Show me your driving skills.

[TALON75]

You must be talking A and B group type of format. Not heat group Quailifing big difference. A and b group is half the field qualifing against each other which is a good system... Group Quailifing by heat race draw is completely different... Your are only Quailifing against the cars that drew in order for that heat... This doesn't not work because heats end up with cars by luck of draw. 12 hears at Eldora some had 5-6 cars within .2 tenths of each other and some had fast time guy .5-6 tenths better than the next and the next guy .5-6 tenths better than the next. But you are correct if you are referring to A and B group Quailifing that system seems to work. Formats like I-80 only works if the track is prepared right and the track is shaped to be one groove... Unfortunately not all tracks are that way.


I think at a big race like that(car count, and track) that even two group A and B qualifying favors an early draw. Eldora can lose more than half a second in fifty cars sometimes . I still hate PDPP(pill draw, passing points), as much as the fans enjoy it , I don't like handicapping professional sports, weekly racing at the local track is fine, show me another pro sport that handicaps for competitors that may not be as good. It really just becomes a game of dodging the Hucktysons(or Papichs) that are rolling roadblocks at ttimes, that's not racing to me, it's more demo derby.

[onlyfacts]

I think at a big race like that(car count, and track) that even two group A and B qualifying favors an early draw. Eldora can lose more than half a second in fifty cars sometimes . I still hate PDPP(pill draw, passing points), as much as the fans enjoy it , I don't like handicapping professional sports, weekly racing at the local track is fine, show me another pro sport that handicaps for competitors that may not be as good. It really just becomes a game of dodging the Hucktysons(or Papichs) that are rolling roadblocks at ttimes, that's not racing to me, it's more demo derby.Finally someone that has an idea. These cars are expensive and anyone that likes the pill draw points handicap systems is not paying any bills on a car . When the time comes that the people paying the bills has had enough (and that is a trend right now) there will be fewer cars so the heats won't have as many cars for the ones that were able to survive the financial task of running one of these cars.

[buster83]

sometimes the invert puts slower cars on front row and it`s all some drivers can do to keep from running into them or taking their self out.

[Bubstr]

Seems the racer don't want to have to pass cars to qualify because they pay the bills. Seems the race fan doesn't want to see a race with out passing, because they pays the bills. Seems the track promoter doesn't want to put forth enough effort, in some cases, to make a track that races well for the whole night, because he pays the bills.

Put it anyway you wish, but the fan pays the bill, $20 to $30 a ticket. If the fan ain't happy, no one is happy. When they stop paying for dull races, they will go away. The different formats work for different tracks, some better than others, but the most exciting races all have at least one thing in common, a well prepared track, that has multiple grooves. If not, they at least have the ability to throw sliders to pass. The track I won't go to is the low side locked down track. No matter what is done, you can't make a silk purse out of a Sow's ear.

[dirtdobber45]

Why not jus give the fastest qualifier a cash bonus or a free pass to the A main. I understand that its a lil boring with jus qualifing sumtimes but who wants their car to get tore up cause a bunch of wanna bes that start ahead of em suddenly have a pile up in front of them and they cant get slowed down in time to avoid it

[onlyfacts]

Seems the racer don't want to have to pass cars to qualify because they pay the bills. Seems the race fan doesn't want to see a race with out passing, because they pays the bills. Seems the track promoter doesn't want to put forth enough effort, in some cases, to make a track that races well for the whole night, because he pays the bills.Put it anyway you wish, but the fan pays the bill, $20 to $30 a ticket. If the fan ain't happy, no one is happy. When they stop paying for dull races, they will go away. The different formats work for different tracks, some better than others, but the most exciting races all have at least one thing in common, a well prepared track, that has multiple grooves. If not, they at least have the ability to throw sliders to pass. The track I won't go to is the low side locked down track. No matter what is done, you can't make a silk purse out of a Sow's ear.Without car owners those fans are going to be wondering what happened to the cars and not happy watching a few rich teams play with their toys. You can not use a handicap pill draw system and make it work nation wide... It worked at I-80 but that doesn't mean it will work at every race track across America. And as far as the best races I have ever seen has come from straight up formats like Faibury, eastbay, Volusia or Knoxville with their point system which I s by far in a different league than any other invert, pill draw, passing points, heat group Qualifing BS. No other form of major league Motorsports has these handicap systems.

[let-r-eat]

I like the group qualifying. They just need to have more groups. Each heat race count should be a group. A race with 36 cars and 4 heats should have 4 groups. Qualify and line up the heat races on where a driver finishes within that group.

Let the fast time from each group choose a pill for which heat they will be in (1,2,3,4) Cars 2-9 will fall from there and one for the inversion *inversion # can only be as high as the transfer positions for that night, IE 3 transfer from heats then inversion can't be over 3..... The overall fast time means a last place starting spot in the feature guarantee only.

Passing points should be used for provisional positions ONLY. So if you are a fast qualifier and get caught up in the inversion and pass but don't qualify in the heat you accumulate points for doing so. Not qualifying in the B main would then go back to points for the provisional's, combined points from heats/b mains. I don't believe in giving anyone anything for making the trip or being a part of the series. You must race your way into one of my features. That would also give the local guys the additional chance to transfer. Highest point getting in the series that failed, highest home track point car that fails to qualify doesn't deserve anything but a bus ride home like all the others who fail to qualify the night of the race. IMO.

You can pull an invert for the feature with a # that can be no higher than the number of heats that night. That means that no individual heat winner gets an advantage based on which heat they win. The field lineups will be based on those inverts.

[Bubstr]

Without car owners those fans are going to be wondering what happened to the cars and not happy watching a few rich teams play with their toys. You can not use a handicap pill draw system and make it work nation wide... It worked at I-80 but that doesn't mean it will work at every race track across America. And as far as the best races I have ever seen has come from straight up formats like Faibury, eastbay, Volusia or Knoxville with their point system which I s by far in a different league than any other invert, pill draw, passing points, heat group Qualifing BS. No other form of major league Motorsports has these handicap systems.

Fairbury inverted 4 for the PDC this year. Volusia runs WOO rules and there is a invert of 4 for the features. Knoxville inverts 8 for the qualifying heats on both qualifying nights, used to be a 10 invert. And East bay uses LOLM strait up starts and pretty much puts on mostly snoozers and a big reason, I skip them when down for speed weeks. Notice, every track you mentioned is a very racey track, except one. I80's format worked well for PRP special. Put it back on my bucket list.

We already have owners pulling out, because the pay outs aren't enough. No fans equals not enough money for bigger pay outs. All I can say, is the tracks, owners and fans need to at least support the good shows so they don't fade away.

[Barbecueboy]

Without car owners those fans are going to be wondering what happened to the cars and not happy watching a few rich teams play with their toys. You can not use a handicap pill draw system and make it work nation wide... It worked at I-80 but that doesn't mean it will work at every race track across America. And as far as the best races I have ever seen has come from straight up formats like Faibury, eastbay, Volusia or Knoxville with their point system which I s by far in a different league than any other invert, pill draw, passing points, heat group Qualifing BS. No other form of major league Motorsports has these handicap systems.

True racers will always find a race to race in and I will always find a way to be a part of it.....if the owners want to price themselves out of business then go ahead, I'm perfectly fine with it.

I'll just the find the real racers........they will be racing somewhere in something........racing is a lifestyle and in some cases a family tradition, it's not going anywhere.
Wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to watch Saturday nights full of great hobby stock or sportsman racing.

To bubsters point, as soon as the the big time racing guys ( all facets)realize that they need us more than we need them touring racing will become instantly better and as a crew chief friend of mine says" more better than good".

[Baddboy1]

True racers will always find a race to race in and I will always find a way to be a part of it.....if the owners want to price themselves out of business then go ahead, I'm perfectly fine with it.

I'll just the find the real racers........they will be racing somewhere in something........racing is a lifestyle and in some cases a family tradition, it's not going anywhere.
Wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to watch Saturday nights full of great hobby stock or sportsman racing.

To bubsters point, as soon as the the big time racing guys ( all facets)realize that they need us more than we need them touring racing will become instantly better and as a crew chief friend of mine says" more better than good".

Great post. My family has been racing since 1958. We are in the 5th generation of drivers.We have raced dirt street stocks,bombers(cage and stock engines),4 cylinders, Modifieds(currently UMP),Super Late Model,Sportsman, and dirt trucks. I enjoy an Saturday night at Fairbury for a regular show as much as a special.Great racing and plenty of action.I have not gone to a big show in 5 years and don't miss them at all.Too many out spending the others.I enjoyed the build it all yourself days.Had much more fun and was less stressful.