Modern 4-Bar Suspension History Question

[vintagewedge]

What year(s) did the 4-bar suspension cars, with the extreme weight transfer/body roll, become dominant? Was this the Rocket chassis around 2000? I guess asking the same thing a different way, what was the last year that cars with more “conventional” suspension (that maintained a flat suspension/body attitude) win the big shows. (Hope this is okay to post in the Tech section.) Thanks in advance.

[zeroracing]

Grt started spring behind in the late 90's was my understanding.

[TheJet-09]

My memory of that time is a little foggy (even foggier nowadays), but I recall it being around 2000/2001. I'm sure there are many that might lay claim to the first LR behind set-up but my understanding was that Skip Arp won some national event (or comparable) and garnered everyone's attention. He was a GRT guy. Even then, from what it was in it's infancy to now are two different things.

[bullittwrench]

Wasn't it Skip Arp at the 97 Pittsburgher 100 in a GRT?

[zeroracing]

My first real late model was a 99 swartz and it had the spring behind mounts in it, I assume it came that way, the mounts matched my later year cars.

[MBR Performance]

You are correct on Skip Arp and the 98 Swartz didn't come with the mount but shortly into the season he sold a weld in mount.

[25drtrkr]

Our team was pretty tight with Skip at that time. He started testing the lr behind in June/July of 1997.What led to it was the fact that the GRT's were having to run 300lb lr springs to get enough drive on slick tracks.

[billetbirdcage]

A bit of history here:

1. 1997 Skip Arp did the LR behind spring
2 He ran 3rd with it the first time he used it in a race
3. It basically it took him one race to get a baseline and figure it out in race conditions and then won the next 3 Hava Tampa races in a row (2nd thru 5th time it was used)
4. By the 5th time it was used all the regular touring guys had copied it and were trying it and it took them the same 1 race to get a baseline, then Skip didn't win another Hava Tampa race again for a while or ever not really sure.
5. In early 1998, it was available part wise from many manufacturers but you had to know about it and ask for it as it wasn't just given out easily.
6. By the 1999 models it was standard on most all chassis. I know that was the first year the actual LR behind upper shock mount was put on the GRT's as standard.

I'm getting too old and my memory ain't what it used to be, but I'm pretty sure that is accurate.

[25drtrkr]

A bit of history here:

1. 1997 Skip Arp did the LR behind spring
2 He ran 3rd with it the first time he used it in a race
3. It basically it took him one race to get a baseline and figure it out in race conditions and then won the next 3 Hava Tampa races in a row (2nd thru 5th time it was used)
4. By the 5th time it was used all the regular touring guys had copied it and were trying it and it took them the same 1 race to get a baseline, then Skip didn't win another Hava Tampa race again for a while or ever not really sure.
5. In early 1998, it was available part wise from many manufacturers but you had to know about it and ask for it as it wasn't just given out easily.
6. By the 1999 models it was standard on most all chassis. I know that was the first year the actual LR behind upper shock mount was put on the GRT's as standard.

I'm getting too old and my memory ain't what it used to be, but I'm pretty sure that is accurate.

That sounds about right,bbc! Actually, it was at the June 1997 Havatampa race at Dixie where Skip told us he would be testing the lr behind in a couple of weeks.

If Skip/Joe would have only patented that idea, where would dlm racing be now? LOL

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That sounds about right,bbc! Actually, it was at the June 1997 Havatampa race at Dixie where Skip told us he would be testing the lr behind in a couple of weeks.

If Skip/Joe would have only patented that idea, where would dlm racing be now? LOL

You can't get a patent on something like that. Lol

[Austin34471]

A bit of history here:

1. 1997 Skip Arp did the LR behind spring
2 He ran 3rd with it the first time he used it in a race
3. It basically it took him one race to get a baseline and figure it out in race conditions and then won the next 3 Hava Tampa races in a row (2nd thru 5th time it was used)
4. By the 5th time it was used all the regular touring guys had copied it and were trying it and it took them the same 1 race to get a baseline, then Skip didn't win another Hava Tampa race again for a while or ever not really sure.
5. In early 1998, it was available part wise from many manufacturers but you had to know about it and ask for it as it wasn't just given out easily.
6. By the 1999 models it was standard on most all chassis. I know that was the first year the actual LR behind upper shock mount was put on the GRT's as standard.

I'm getting too old and my memory ain't what it used to be, but I'm pretty sure that is accurate.
And this^ is why you should keep your mouth shut if you do come up with something innovative and better. Even in a time with no Facebook and no texting/cellphone pics, it took 3 races for word to spread throughout the entire dlm world and for the guy who thought of it to get passed up by everyone else.

[25drtrkr]

You can't get a patent on something like that. Lol

Im pretty sure if they had hired a patent attorney, they could have gotten one.

Just think if they would have. GRT would have been the dominate chassis. They would have cost 100k to get one and there would be a 1 year waiting list. LOL

[Bubstr]

A patent on something like this, is almost worthless. The cost involved is not it obtaining the patent, but in court costs trying to enforce the intellectual property rights. Unless a big car company put it on millions of cars, it's a lost cause going to court to fight infringements. You can't get blood out of a turnip, but the lawyers want paid in blood.

[billetbirdcage]

And this^ is why you should keep your mouth shut if you do come up with something innovative and better. Even in a time with no Facebook and no texting/cellphone pics, it took 3 races for word to spread throughout the entire dlm world and for the guy who thought of it to get passed up by everyone else.

While it may have only been 3 races, but remember the only ones that knew about it where the regulars on the series which was about a dozen of them. Most of the rest of the world it took way more then a year to know about it. The regulars got/seen it early cause they raced and traveled with Skip and where probably around his car all the time in the pits so not overly hard to see it. So it's hard to keep anyone from seeing it for long, not sure how much trouble Skip when to hide it. It also wasn't overly complex to figure out, pretty easy to see the coil spring on the back.

Now about early 98, the more known and good national/regional type racers started to get wind of it and where using it during 98 but had large covers over the LR. Chassis manufactures where still not telling people about it, just their clients that where "IN with them". Toward the end of 98, most of the other racers had seen it or saw something was being covered by the bigger racers and started asking questions. Then by 99 it was Std issue for most cars.

So it actually took a long time for it to get around to the average racer. I doubt you could keep it that secret that long now with social media like you said.

Some things get out cause of loose lips and others just from people seeing glimpses of what you got. A lot boils down to how complex it is and how much you have to see to figure out what they are doing. Skips idea was pretty simple but still took almost 1.5 years to be standard issue.

I see a lot of changes coming in the next few months or year. So many people working on completely out of the box stuff right now, someone might actually hit on something soon.

[25drtrkr]

Just think where this, less than a c-note, invention has led us to!

[Matt49]

And it's just a matter of time before everybody figures out the Rumley LR birdcage. I have a picture of it (as many of us probably do) and that is NOT a simple device. Due to the angle it was taken from, I can't make out all of it but I'm starting to put the pieces together.

[25drtrkr]

And it's just a matter of time before everybody figures out the Rumley LR birdcage. I have a picture of it (as many of us probably do) and that is NOT a simple device. Due to the angle it was taken from, I can't make out all of it but I'm starting to put the pieces together.

"starting to put the pieces together"......literally or figuratively? LOL

[Matt49]

"starting to put the pieces together"......literally or figuratively? LOL

I don't mean I'm physically constructing anything. I'm just trying to figure out how it works. The purpose of the additional shock and bump rubber is pretty obvious (to me anyway) but how it is controlled is a little less clear from the picture I have. It appears to be a cantilever system attached to a somewhat modified travel limiter chain.

[Krooser]

Why is the shock behind so much better? What does it do to improve forward bite?

[TheJet-09]

^^^ My reasoning is because with the original design (spring in front) the upper and lower shock mounts moved in opposite directions (away from each other) during rebound which greatly reduced the load on the LR. With the spring behind the mounts at least move in the same direction helping to reduce that loss.

[SuperEight]

Conventionally setup cars were still winning the "Big Shows" thru till the end of 1998. LR hike up cars were around in 97' & 98' but were far from dominant, more like wild and crazy. It took the better part of 12-15 years for them to calm down with the help of $5K shock packages and bump stops. The LR shock/spring behind was a violent, vulgar and difficult to predict setup for many years, but they became popular so here we are. This setup in many ways is a series of crutches, kinda like a medication with awful and ugly side effects.

[Krooser]

So, Super Eight, you're saying I'm going to have a fun time with my ancient mid-90's Mastersbilt as I re-start my career in my never ending attempt to attain DLM "legend status" in 2016?

Wave that green flag!

[SuperEight]

So, Super Eight, you're saying I'm going to have a fun time with my ancient mid-90's Mastersbilt as I re-start my career in my never ending attempt to attain DLM "legend status" in 2016?

Wave that green flag!

No, the car you bought, in my opinion is easier to drive and cheaper to setup, if you run it the way it was built to run. Now, if you try to hybridize it and run with the LR behind the axle you'll may get frustrated trying to manage it. The modern cars are designed with the "Hike up" in mind. Todays cars have different geometry, frame rails and cross members raised, flexible chassis and on and on. All in an effort to corral the modern beast. The "Hike up" setup helps a sloppy driver to be competitive, I think thats why they caught on, you can catch the car better with the throttle. The older cars like you have are still fast, but require more finesse and smoothness to be quick. A friend of mine took a 96' Walter Newman car to the national 100 back in the early 2000's that had been on mothballs for several years before being pressed into service. By this time nobody was running in front of the axle anymore, but we did all year and won 15 races at like 5 different tracks with a home built engine. We went to EAMS for the National and we were the only car not hiking up and running very quick. We made a mistake on tires and didn't transfer from our heat, but manage to outrun several tour guys and Steve Francis came and looked under the car because he couldn't believe how we were pulling him off the corner and we weren't all jacked up. I have no doubt you can be fast in your car, but it was designed to run on different technology than todays. Joe Garrisons first dirt late model book would probably be a big help to you. If you decide to run, "On The Hook" well good luck with it. I have 2 other friends who still run leaf cars and win, one in Kentucky and one in Australia. The guy in Australia is the 2 time defending v8 super sedan series champion, which is a dlm with a tail piece. Let me know how you do.