Madden at Charlotte ?!?!

[Matt49]

What in the world kind of car was that?!?!?

I just saw a picture of him passing Richards for the lead in a heat he won and I swear that car must be articulated. No "down links" from the roll bar to the rear clip and the entire center section of the frame is at a different attitude than the rear. You can clearly see the rear of the chassis through the LF wheel opening and there is no way that is directly attached to the center section of the car. Not to mention the LF is about 2 feet off the ground.
And you can see something UNDER the car that doesn't look normal.

See DoD slide show for the picture if you haven't seen it and chime in with ideas but this is some strange stuff.

[billetbirdcage]

What in the world kind of car was that?!?!?

I just saw a picture of him passing Richards for the lead in a heat he won and I swear that car must be articulated. No "down links" from the roll bar to the rear clip and the entire center section of the frame is at a different attitude than the rear. You can clearly see the rear of the chassis through the LF wheel opening and there is no way that is directly attached to the center section of the car. Not to mention the LF is about 2 feet off the ground.
And you can see something UNDER the car that doesn't look normal.

See DoD slide show for the picture if you haven't seen it and chime in with ideas but this is some strange stuff.

http://www.stlracingphotos.com/The-Dirt-Track-Charlotte/2015-World-Finals/World-Finals-Friday-11615/World-of-Outlaw-Late-Models/i-3CbPJds/X2

You don't see the bars cause of the angle it was taken from, longhorns bars only run down to the bar in front of the fuel cell not all the way back to the back of the car. I see nothing frame wise out of line, not sure what you're seeing.

That being said, I said there are some things going on. Going to be a really fun year next year, I'm really excited.

[Matt49]

Okay, I now see the optical illusion I was getting on the rear down-tubes.
But what about the "object" in front of the LR in the pic you provided. I think this is what I'm seeing in the picture I'm talking about. Is this part of Rumley's LR birdcage system? It's more vertically "aligned" with the axle than it is the frame.

[Austin34471]

That being said, I said there are some things going on. Going to be a really fun year next year, I'm really excited.
Me too. This is an exciting time to be in the sport. These next few years are going to really separate the innovators and the imitators

[billetbirdcage]

Okay, I now see the optical illusion I was getting on the rear down-tubes.
But what about the "object" in front of the LR in the pic you provided. I think this is what I'm seeing in the picture I'm talking about. Is this part of Rumley's LR birdcage system? It's more vertically "aligned" with the axle than it is the frame.

Madden doesn't have the Rumley devise, I'm pretty sure (about 99% sure) I know what that is on maddens car and it's not the Rumley devise.

[Matt49]

Well...I guess I'll wait for more pictures to come out :-)
I don't know what's more difficult: convicting a pro athlete of a crime or finding out what is going on under some of these guys' cars.

[Austin34471]

Well...I guess I'll wait for more pictures to come out :-)
I don't know what's more difficult: convicting a pro athlete of a crime or finding out what is going on under some of these guys' cars.
I think that's just the Longhorn lift bar mount on the rearend you are seeing. You can see it better in this pic. Those ears are sticking down pretty far in most pics of the longhorns.
http://www.stlracingphotos.com/The-Dirt-Track-Charlotte/2015-World-Finals/World-Finals-Friday-11615/World-of-Outlaw-Late-Models/i-JTLgK8s/X2

But what Mr. Billet is referring to I'm not sure. Ive been pretty far up underneaths Madden's car and didn't seen anything too exotic. But that doesn't mean there isn't more than what meets the eyes

[billetbirdcage]

Well...I guess I'll wait for more pictures to come out :-)
I don't know what's more difficult: convicting a pro athlete of a crime or finding out what is going on under some of these guys' cars.

We are past outside the box, I think the box got thrown away. Tons of people trying all sorts of stuff some of it silly some of it looks like a decent idea. I can tell you I have a least 400 hours in CAD work that I've done in the last 2 months. There are major changes coming.......

Rumley lite a fire under all of our azz's, like I said it's brought the fun back into racing least for me as I was so burned out it wasn't funny. We all got complacent

[billetbirdcage]

I think that's just the Longhorn lift bar mount on the rearend you are seeing. You can see it better in this pic. Those ears are sticking down pretty far in most pics of the longhorns.
http://www.stlracingphotos.com/The-Dirt-Track-Charlotte/2015-World-Finals/World-Finals-Friday-11615/World-of-Outlaw-Late-Models/i-JTLgK8s/X2

But what Mr. Billet is referring to I'm not sure. Ive been pretty far up underneaths Madden's car and didn't seen anything too exotic. But that doesn't mean there isn't more than what meets the eyes

If you find the pic matt is talking about you will see it's not the lift bar brackets on the rear end.

Edit: On 2nd thought, it could be after going over more pics. it's a little hard to tell distance initially I thought the brackets looked closer to the wheel then the center of the rear end. If they was towards the LR, then I have a pretty good idea of what it might be (reason I said I was 99% sure).

http://dirtondirt.com/photoGallery.php?id=5436 5th or 6th from the end

[Matt49]

^^^ Yes that is the pic that sparked my interest.
There are a lot of interesting things going on these days. All good for the sport if you ask me. Makes the thinkers think smarter, the builders build better, and the drivers drive harder.

[hucktyson]

Sounds like you guys have it all figured out .... Surely the next Lucas champion and world 100 winner is coming from the tech section of 4m ..... I need
To see if Vegas if taking odds so the 4m wizards of smart can make me some money !!!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Sounds like you guys have it all figured out .... Surely the next Lucas champion and world 100 winner is coming from the tech section of 4m ..... I need
To see if Vegas if taking odds so the 4m wizards of smart can make me some money !!!

I know for a fact there are people on this site that have and will again come up with worthwhile things. You certainly won't get any faster with Wang jokes and dismissing everyone.

Say I find a bolt on for my car that makes it 3 tenths faster. I am too slow, like you, for anyone to realize I have anything. Give it to a top tier driver, he wins most every race. It gets attention at that point.

[hucktyson]

You don't get what I'm saying ... It's the constant search for magic and people implying that they have the magic on here I it they won't tell you what it is lol. No doubt there is some useful info on here but also an insane amount of BS. I I'll tell you this there's a lot of car owners with really deep pockets that would pay a lot of money for the info people on here claim to have ... And if your that good your selling it to them not stroking off on a message board. When it comes to residential construction I'm on top of that game and charge crazy money for what I do as a result. and there's lots of message boards in that field and I post ZERO info about anything. If your good you sell your ideas and become rich as a result... Let me know who's car billet is wrenching on and when it wins a crown jewel in 2016 the very next day I will come on here and say I was wrong.

[bb14]

The smart guys have ideas behind the Rumley device. There are several iterations of it being tested. Penske's iteration is obviously pretty darn good but I feel Rumley uses his for more than just traction. He is ahead of the others, obviously, and has a system in place to allow the whole car to be adjusted beyond what we have done the past. Just .02.

[fastford]

all this thread sounds like to me is more cost across the board and less cars at the track. the days of finding something you can build with a cutting torch and a welder that will give you an advantage are about gone. just look what happened in the shock industry alone. 10 years ago , you could spend 7oo bucks and get a decent set up, now its 7000, or more. im not knocking innovation, its just for the elite now , just look at nascar, the days of the wood brothers are all but gone.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The smart guys have ideas behind the Rumley device. There are several iterations of it being tested. Penske's iteration is obviously pretty darn good but I feel Rumley uses his for more than just traction. He is ahead of the others, obviously, and has a system in place to allow the whole car to be adjusted beyond what we have done the past. Just .02.

Penske...

Are you talking about the spring rod or something else?

[bb14]

Penske...

Are you talking about the spring rod or something else?

They have a device that has been tested recently. They may deny it. One of my friends is in the HoF and he first denied it. Another friend liked it. Who knows but you can bet the farm there are some out there trying to duplicate it. And it is not for sale yet.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

They have a device that has been tested recently. They may deny it. One of my friends is in the HoF and he first denied it. Another friend liked it. Who knows but you can bet the farm there are some out there trying to duplicate it. And it is not for sale yet.

Been wondering how close the Zero was to having it.

[hucktyson]

Everyone is soooo convinced magic is happening .... Let
Me ask you this ... How many of the guys in here looking to the 4m gurus can pound the cushion on high speed race tracks anywhere near the same planet as davensnort ?? How many of
Those 22 races would
Davensnort have won using the traditional Bloomquist line instead of hammering the cushion ??? How many guys hammer the cushion anywhere near as well as davensnort ??? Bobby Pierce comes to mind but who else ??? A lot of guys run high but lack the finess to run the hub when it's dead slick.. I think the secret is that there is no secret..... I know billet has that cad designed front end that can make a U turn in the middle
Of 3 and 4 at eldora without sliding the back end or losing any speed .... It still comes
Down to once you spin the tires your done..... And the top guys do it way less than us hobby racers. And the real bottom line is being the best dirt late model driver in the world pays a small fraction of
Being the best in the world at (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) near any other profession. Keep searching for magic and the guys who are good will keep testing and adjusting and keep winning like it's always been.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Everyone is soooo convinced magic is happening .... Let
Me ask you this ... How many of the guys in here looking to the 4m gurus can pound the cushion on high speed race tracks anywhere near the same planet as davensnort ?? How many of
Those 22 races would
Davensnort have won using the traditional Bloomquist line instead of hammering the cushion ??? How many guys hammer the cushion anywhere near as well as davensnort ??? Bobby Pierce comes to mind but who else ??? A lot of guys run high but lack the finess to run the hub when it's dead slick.. I think the secret is that there is no secret..... I know billet has that cad designed front end that can make a U turn in the middle
Of 3 and 4 at eldora without sliding the back end or losing any speed .... It still comes
Down to once you spin the tires your done..... And the top guys do it way less than us hobby racers. And the real bottom line is being the best dirt late model driver in the world pays a small fraction of
Being the best in the world at (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) near any other profession. Keep searching for magic and the guys who are good will keep testing and adjusting and keep winning like it's always been.
You are right. Davenport would have won those races with a monoleaf. Engineering is useless.

[bb14]

You are right. Davenport would have won those races with a monoleaf. Engineering is useless.

There is a lot more money in engineering and chassis companies than building decks. You should try it.

While I agree with a lot of what you say I disagree with the way you came across with your replies. I only threw you a jab because of your reply.

There hasn't been any magic in quite some time. However, you must know your shocks, chassis, and probably most important your tires. You know that and we know that. No magic.

However new technology has made the cars faster and the 6 was the fastest car this year. All of the longhorns are fast.

Technology will make the cars faster next year and the next year. We all get it. Let's try to keep it positive. No one will learn how to win a race by reading this board. However there are some smart guys here for fun.

Keep it positive.

[bb14]

This reply was aimed at Huck

[Austin34471]

No decent tech discussion goes unpunished.

[zeroracing]

Billetbirdcage flat dominated the Midwest on hard tires for many years. The billet front end Shaw cars he was working on and with were outclassing the field and we're almost too nice to actually race. I would venture to say he makes good bank doing what he does now and any major team would love to have him on board to help, they either have not offered enough $$$ or he enjoys his current gig more.

[save the racers]

True statements Zeroracing.
What is this l/r device doing?Getting the car up but, not binding it.Allowing it to work like it is riding on the springs.Or changing the rear steer.

[Matt49]

I've often thought about how stiff the LR gets on full hike up. Great for dynamic wedge...not so great for dampening. The spring isn't doing much and the tire is essentially providing the only "cushion" between the race track and the chassis. This is where I've wondered if a spring rod in place of the LR upper bar might be beneficial.

[hucktyson]

Davensnorts car bounces all over the place on the LR. I never said engineering isn't very important , I'm just saying I think part of his 2015 dominance is due to his willingness and ability to hammer the piss out of the cushion for a 100 straight laps. And field engineers around you must make 15 times what they do around here ... You don't see Bloomquist pounding cushions like that ...

[hucktyson]

And as far as no good tech going unpunished the only thing that happens here are guys claiming they are Rumley squared while never answering anything and talking around in circles.

[billetbirdcage]

And as far as no good tech going unpunished the only thing that happens here are guys claiming they are Rumley squared while never answering anything and talking around in circles.

I'm assuming that most of this is directed at me

Think you misread/interpreted what I posted: You seem to think I have said something along these lines so show me anywhere in my posts where I said that:

1. That I personally have the Rumbley devise figured out and know everything about it
2. That I know everything about their set up
3. That having such a devise or other things (magic as you call it) will make an average team/driver compete consistently against the top tier teams.
4. That I was mainly talking about the rumbley devise and nothing else

I said:
1. There are several things people are trying, didn't say I know everything about all of them but what I do know some of them are very promising. I never said if or what I was doing and if it had anything to do with anything Rumbley is doing.
2. Nobody else that I know of has been running the Rumbley devise at a major race that anyone has seen, reason I said Madden didn't have it cause it wasn't on his car during the finals and no one had ever seen it on his car at a race.
3. That I spent a bunch of time on CAD: never said what I was working on or if it even pertained to anything anyone else is doing. I got motivated to work on some stuff, I never got around to and also to work on some stuff others are doing to help understand what it could help with or if it's applicable in another area.
4. Changes are going: I believe when some of this stuff eventually comes out, it will be the new standard similar to the LR behind was back when (again never said it was my stuff, but you seem to have taken it that way).

You can think I'm a hack if you want, but nowhere did I claim to be some guru and know it all. JD and his team no doubt are an extremely good team, but to say they don't have some mechanical advantage (big or small) is burying your head in the sand. Everyone at times gets them from time to time, but no one has been able to be that dominate for that long. Even a slight one can add up but like I said many times you have to be in the same ball park. A mechanical advantage isn't going to make guy win races that couldn't keep up, but give that small advantage to one of the top teams that are all bunched together and now they are a tenth quicker. Sometimes that is all it takes.

The Top Teams feel JD has a pretty fair mechanical advantage (They have said it many times in interviews), thus the reason guys are trying stuff they normally would try. They are all hunting really hard to find something.

[Matt49]

Davensnorts car bounces all over the place on the LR. I never said engineering isn't very important , I'm just saying I think part of his 2015 dominance is due to his willingness and ability to hammer the piss out of the cushion for a 100 straight laps. And field engineers around you must make 15 times what they do around here ... You don't see Bloomquist pounding cushions like that ...

You're 100% right...as someone else said...Davenport could win a leaf-spring car if that's the case.
Get a clue dude, Davenport is a good driver but he isn't that good.
If you don't think that they had something figured out on the LR this past season, you're either ignorant or fibbing to yourself.
And I never said they had a spring rod on the LR...my comment was part of what we call a DISCUSSION which you seem to know nothing about being a part of...
Now I'll sit back and wait for the typical sophomoric response that we've all come to expect from you.

[bb14]

You're 100% right...as someone else said...Davenport could win a leaf-spring car if that's the case.
Get a clue dude, Davenport is a good driver but he isn't that good.
If you don't think that they had something figured out on the LR this past season, you're either ignorant or fibbing to yourself.
And I never said they had a spring rod on the LR...my comment was part of what we call a DISCUSSION which you seem to know nothing about being a part of...
Now I'll sit back and wait for the typical sophomoric response that we've all come to expect from you.

Even though the car is jacked up the cars attitude is not held by the RF shock. He also has a shock similar to 90/10.

To me one of the keys ofthe device controls the attitude of the car. The front shocks are free to do what they are supposed to do. The attitude is also important because it uses the air so well. They are very smart so you have to look at the little things like the rear end placement and it's differences etc etc.

You guys are dead on in stating that the other guys will catch on. Some are already catching up. But a tenth is a tenth and adds up.

I for one don't care for the one shock per rule deal. This sport was built on innovation. Change can be good when we are not talking politics. Like billet said this can be as big as the shock behind.

[let-r-eat]

I would argue that technology has brought the fields closer together. The Rumley device looks to be just controlling the rotation of the cage and unlinking the relationship between the top and bottom links.

[TheJet-09]

In looking at pictures from Charlotte (prompted by this thread) I though it was obvious that Bloomquist had a dampner shock on the rearend. Just caught my attention as I am unaware of anyone running one anymore (at least around my parts).

[Matt49]

In looking at pictures from Charlotte (prompted by this thread) I though it was obvious that Bloomquist had a dampner shock on the rearend. Just caught my attention as I am unaware of anyone running one anymore (at least around my parts).

Something he added for that track condition, maybe???

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Something he added for that track condition, maybe???

He runs one all the time

[zeroracing]

He also had something green or green stripe on the LRF or that region.

[Necrosis]

He runs one all the timeOh really? Tell me more.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Oh really? Tell me more.

Correction. I have seen one on his car several times. I don't see him race every week

[fastford]

Davensnorts car bounces all over the place on the LR. I never said engineering isn't very important , I'm just saying I think part of his 2015 dominance is due to his willingness and ability to hammer the piss out of the cushion for a 100 straight laps. And field engineers around you must make 15 times what they do around here ... You don't see Bloomquist pounding cushions like that ...

Davensnorts, and you wander ,I guess, why people screw with you so much on here, then again you must like it.....ive known of him since he started and never herd that.

[Racer63]

I know Billet quit posting on here for years cause of a few bad apples. Hoping you guys don't let the dumb crap keep yall from commenting and trying to help out fellow racers.

[zeroracing]

Davensnorts car bounces all over the place on the LR. I never said engineering isn't very important , I'm just saying I think part of his 2015 dominance is due to his willingness and ability to hammer the piss out of the cushion for a 100 straight laps. And field engineers around you must make 15 times what they do around here ... You don't see Bloomquist pounding cushions like that ...

I don't know what type of engineers you typically deal with, most that do residential or do small building structural/deck structural are on the lower end of the pay scale. Higher end pay scale for heavy highway, industrial, electrical or mechanical. Other end of the spectrum for petroleum or highly specialized. Typically the cost for an engineer would be about a 2.0-2.5 multiplier (often more for smaller firms) for all the other stuff that comes along with the engineer. For example for a race team it would take software (ADAMS or Solid Works is not cheap), measuring equipment, calculation programs such as matCAD or Mathworks... Long story short to fire up an engineer with the backing needed to get the use you wanted out of them could easily run you north of $ 200,000. This includes benefits. $ 200,000 expense on top of everything else is a big step for somebody to make, Rumley did the jump but it was a gamble, most Engineers will stick to a solid 401k, stock options and payroll not based upon rocks in race tracks cutting a tire down.

[MADCAPRACING22]

This is an old thread but it caught my attention. I just want to say that I appreciate the input from some of the folks posting. I judge alot of personalities on here based on who would be fun to have in the shop working with you. It is easy to tell the bitter blowhards from the real deals. I hope Matt49, Mastersbilt Racer, Billetbirdcage and GRT74 keep thinking out loud on here! I respect their knowledge and I brainstorm right along with them although I post very little myself. There are other really good posters on here but those 4 stand out. I hope to experience this paradigm shift along with you guys!

[SuperEight]

I know for a fact there are people on this site that have and will again come up with worthwhile things. You certainly won't get any faster with Wang jokes and dismissing everyone.

Say I find a bolt on for my car that makes it 3 tenths faster. I am too slow, like you, for anyone to realize I have anything. Give it to a top tier driver, he wins most every race. It gets attention at that point.

Nail on the head as usual.