i want to know more about the device

[andy16]

Need more info, with only this picture i cant work out in my head or graph paper how this works. maybe if i saw it from the side view? im gonna say what i see if you wanna say what you see great, if you wanna pm me great. im not a millionaire this is the best way i can learn about this i know its dirty to post pics of other peoples car but its no secret anymore we all seen it on fb by now so lets get to the bottom of it. people say its a cantilever. i know old school cantilever its different not as simple. people say oh its old tech there just doing a modern take. maybe but i been looking at cars a long time. this aint no "spring rod" and it aint as simple as a rayburn or howe cantilever. soooo lets start. first look at the picture i have pinned. there are numbered lines drawn to the parts i see.
#1 looks like a threaded short shock body of some kind cant see what it is connected to or its purpose but it looks to be above or in front of the axle tube so maybe a limiter or something not sure what you think?
#2 also seems to be some sort of cusioned limiter? looks to be bolted in where it top rod would bolt? hard to tell? is there a top rod on this setup? is it a 3 link ls/4 link r/s with this thing hooked in there?
#3looks like some sort of lever prob where the cantilever stuff comes in but how is it connected to that cushoned mount (#2) looks like it has tape on it is it a chain? is it some long threaded thing hard to see
#4 well is some sort of hydralic control devise. with bumps on it.appears to be fully collapsed in the std ride height position so can say it extends as lr drops? is it a dampener or does it use hydralic pressuer to push or pull something we can see it has a line going to a canister? gas pressure canister? almost looks like a schrader valve on it but also looks to be mounted into the birdcage system maybe?
#5 looks to be the bottom bar of 4 link mounted in a normal position?

-where is the top bar?
-How does lr drop start the device moving?
-Stacked lr spring to alow spring preload at all times seen it before but not quite like that.
-is it on a floated bird cage or is it locked out like a 3 link?

ill go ahead and apologize to the rumleys for posting and asking but i am curious and im nobody that wins all the time or can afford to buy"knowlege" so how else will i learn until its lapping me.

[andy16]

pic w diff format

[Austin34471]

Helps it turn in better and have more forward bite

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

When you get it, Team Zero wants to know!

[Lizardracing]

Confucius say "Those who look at others cars will always be behind them"

Ok maybe he didn't say that exactly but because the pics didn't work, and math and geometry isn't a top secret government thing, I'd say the driver/team has figured a way to manipulate rear steer dynamically.

[andy16]

evidently the pics are jammed nobody can see them? i dont see what the big deal is its been shared on facebook by prettymuch everyone the cat was out of the bag weeks ago. ive gained quite a bit of inspiration from studying it but lets face it the 4 link works pretty darn good, i dont have the time or money to test anything really so im not going down that road but im just a small time racer who wanted to understand what it was, talk about ,it and really admire the intelect and balls it took to move from something that worked so well into somethinh unknown.

[Necrosis]

If you have enough money, I'll tell you EXACTLY what it is/does. Call my bluff.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If you have enough money, I'll tell you EXACTLY what it is/does. Call my bluff.

What is your PRI booth number?

[Matt49]

I started a similar thread a couple of months ago and was told by many that there is nothing to see here.

There IS a top bar but it is hard to see. Assuming you're looking at the same picture that we all have, start at the top left of the picture. "Behind" the bump rubber (what I believe to be the actual travel limiter) you can see a red heim joint. Then from that, below the right side of the horizontal tube securing the bump rubber assembly to the frame, you can see the black hex tube running down to the birdcage. Its pickup point on the birdcage is covered up by the shock and canister for the shock that we are all interested in.
I could be wrong (for enough money Necrosis can tell us) but I think the intent of the device is to increase loading of the LR as the LR moves away from the frame. It's using forward thrust to amplify anti-squat above and beyond just what the 4-bar system alone would provide. JMO...like you said, a side view image would provide anybody with a mechanical background with enough to understand exactly how it works.

[andy16]

Matt49
we are looking at the same photo and i see what your talking about, i can stop thinking about half of what i thought it might be, i see the top rod now. this is the last im posting about it unless more is revealed later. apparently its a touchy subject so ill leave it alone. thanks for the replys

[Matt49]

Matt49
we are looking at the same photo and i see what your talking about, i can stop thinking about half of what i thought it might be, i see the top rod now. this is the last im posting about it unless more is revealed later. apparently its a touchy subject so ill leave it alone. thanks for the replys

Welcome to the world of "reverse engineering". Despite all of the "innovation" talk you may hear. Reverse engineering is what has kept racing alive in our genre. You just find something someone else is doing and copy it and/or make it "better" by changing one small thing. Patents and intellectual property are apparently not things dumb old racers think about....nor their lawyers. Just wait...It'll get REAL when the money rolls in and the mythical "next level" arrives.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Welcome to the world of "reverse engineering". Despite all of the "innovation" talk you may hear. Reverse engineering is what has kept racing alive in our genre. You just find something someone else is doing and copy it and/or make it "better" by changing one small thing. Patents and intellectual property are apparently not things dumb old racers think about....nor their lawyers. Just wait...It'll get REAL when the money rolls in and the mythical "next level" arrives.
Kinda hard to go see if some other racer welded up some stuff to look like yours at one of the hundreds of dirt tracks in the country. That could get pretty expensive.

[zeroracing]

There is one picture floating around Facebook and people have been trading around for a while. There are more picture(s) but they are not being shared. The side view picture is the harder to get ahold of one.

[Lizardracing]

So this thing is something like a telescoping rod that goes from the LS birdcage upper mount to the frame somewhere near the upper link mount on the frame? I'm picturing a brake floater....mounted from frame to birdcage, can telescope and has adjustable travel limiting via bump stops.

[zeroracing]

Double posted sorry

[RacerX10]

you're welcome !

:)

http://www.rtach.com/pics/the_thing.jpg

[TheJet-09]

Is that a small dampner/shock (black threaded body) running vertically from the chassis to the J-Bar? It might be just behind it.

[RacerX10]

The whole thing looks like somebody walked around the shop, picked up a bunch of crap laying around and started bolting it on the car :)

I'm dubious.

[RW57]

I am no engineer but wait I work on race cars so maybe I am. Looks like to me in simple terms it increases load on the left rear wheel as the bird cage rotates. A friend of mine talked to Chris Madden about his Longhorn and Madden told him it is hands down the best racecar he has ever sat in he could not believe a car would be that good.Now the person he told this is no johnny come lately who once built race car himself. Just thought I would throw this out there.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I am no engineer but wait I work on race cars so maybe I am. Looks like to me in simple terms it increases load on the left rear wheel as the bird cage rotates. A friend of mine talked to Chris Madden about his Longhorn and Madden told him it is hands down the best racecar he has ever sat in he could not believe a car would be that good.Now the person he told this is no johnny come lately who once built race car himself. Just thought I would throw this out there.

But Madden doesn't have that contraption.

[fastford]

when its available for purchase, it will probably cost more than my whole car,lol. this is starting to make the one shock per corner rule look better and better..........

[Lizardracing]

Has way too many moving parts to be very reliable. It would require constant attention. Like every other part on your race car isn't already!

[fastford]

I don't know SCD, that looks like a small canister shock hooked to it to me.

[fastford]

I think your right, probably a way to adjust bite from within the car. but, wouldn't that be illegal ?

[Kromulous]

I think Stock Car Driver nailed it, cantilever birdcage. Separates the two bars, after the top bar bottoms out against the stop, and then it begins to compress the little shock contraption on the birdcage.

It Explains why JD's car's LR is hiked a foot higher than most others on the track. You can look at photos from Florence's North South and see it.

Also, get a load at how much preload that LR spring has on it, gees is it a 100lb spring or what?

[Kromulous]

Still thinking out loud here, but could then intent be to take out rear steer via the LRL bar being head to a certain drop dimension. Then separate the top bar, and allow the rear end to "over index" and create a lot of LRU bar angle, the little shock controls this indexing.


This is very interesting ! thanks for that pic.

[TS3g]

So something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/t6OCTNeh.png
http://i.imgur.com/t6OCTNe.png - For full size

Green = Frame
Yellow = Trailing Rods
Cyan = Birdcage
Red = Cantilever
Orange/Yellow = Cantilever Hike Shock
Gray/Purple = Cantilever Compression Dampener
Pink = Coil-over

Obviously not drawn to exact angles/sizes/whatnot. And there's some more going on in the pic on top of the cantilever, but I can't tell what it is

[RW57]

Did not know Madden did not have that on his car.Maybe on Davenport car that's what they want you see so you won't see what is really going on.I have done this myself before to keep people from seeing what I am really doing.That'sa pretty good statement looks like a bunch of crap they had laying around and just welded it up. Two different people who saw Madden at Cleveland were telling me how Maddens car kept the nose flat all the way thru corner and down straightaways.They said there was not another car there that looked like his and it looked like his car turned with the front end and was not all dumped over on.RF That's the same thing as Davenport has done all year.I had another friend who got to measure a Longhorn bare chassis he said it not a lot different than any thing else out there.He did say though the lower a frames were different than anything else out there he said they do not flex and have extra bars thru out the chassis.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I think you have it, TS3g. Looks like what I saw.

[25drtrkr]

Why the two heims mounted to the bottom of the birdcage? I know one is the trailing arm, but what is the other attached to? Looks like theres a bracket welded to both tubes.

[rakracing]

what interests me is the stacked lr spring , and the lrf shock location and mounting

[QQQQ]

http://i66.tinypic.com/slgp4y.jpg

[rakracing]

look past the head of the lr shock, theres a threaded body there not shur what im seeing. original picture

[colt45]

Cantilever setup where you can control steer and hike independently? Maybe Im wrong but I think this is what they are doing.

[RW57]

Does anybody remember the custom chassis cantalever set up that Freddy Smith used to dominate with years ago he was just about unbeatable for a while with it.I think its the same type deal but more refined.

[Austin34471]

http://i66.tinypic.com/slgp4y.jpg
....anyone see the jbar in this pic? I don't

[Necrosis]

....anyone see the jbar in this pic? I don'tBecause a J-bar is not necessary. There is more than one way to skin a cat. The biggest thing anyone can learn from this, is not what the device is/does, but that you shouldn't let linguistics define the box that you think in. And for that, we are all guilty. Bottom line, your time is spent best not copying, but by removing any and all barriers in your thought process. This includes language. Dirt cars don't speak English, they speak the same language engineers do. Physics.

[rakracing]

great post Necrosis, I believe I see a jbar in the first picture directly behind the spring steel .

[hucktyson]

Davensnort didn't win every race with this contraption and the races he lost were lost to guys running regular 4 links. Davensnort wouldn't have won half as many if he wasn't one of the top 3 guys in the country at hammering the cushion. There's stupid speed in the cushion if you hit it right and a junk race car if you don't . He's VERY good at running the cushion. I can see a lot of people wasting a lot of time and money tying to copy this ...

[Lizardracing]

...as far as the J bar goes.....some sort of lateral locating device is required unless it's a triangulated four link.

The recipe for success is a good equipment, quality financial backing, and a good driver. All those guys on the premier level have the first two. In order to compete at the top level a number some of the things are required. Sacrifice of your life, competitive drive, willingness to let it kill you, focus, natural ability, and refined skills from practicing perfectly. I'd say it more likely that Davenport biggest advantage is some combination of the above rather than a bolt on device. I think it looks like a travel limiter to me with a damper.

[Punisher88]

I think the lr front shock is attached either to the j bar or pinion..

[Austin34471]

Because a J-bar is not necessary. There is more than one way to skin a cat. The biggest thing anyone can learn from this, is not what the device is/does, but that you shouldn't let linguistics define the box that you think in. And for that, we are all guilty. Bottom line, your time is spent best not copying, but by removing any and all barriers in your thought process. This includes language. Dirt cars don't speak English, they speak the same language engineers do. Physics.
Must be running a Mumford link

[stevo]

This looks like the thing LeCroy ran on his Rayburn that he won hundreds of races in. He used swing arm when wet and when track slowed down he went to 4 bar behind with this, in the Discovery race at Spring city I helped him that nite and when feature came he put it on because they were not going to water track before feature,then at last minute they watered it, but it was August and he left it on. Works best when you are hunting traction. But he had several rubber round things not a hock,he says rubbers are springs.

[SuperEight]

Does anybody remember the custom chassis cantalever set up that Freddy Smith used to dominate with years ago he was just about unbeatable for a while with it.I think its the same type deal but more refined.

When I first started helping a friend of mine, his father had one of those reverse cantilever cars, but those are different animals than this. The custom deal looked like this picture below.

[Len72P]

Interesting angle on the 4 bars. I know its a picture , but they look within 5 degrees at top 45 bott. 40. On my computer software the fwd. steer is almost the same as std. bar positions if I shorten the bottom rod 1 1/2 inch. HMMM?

[billetbirdcage]

Things/ideas like this is why many people don't want the proposed rules changes, since it's obvious to me the series don't have a clue to what they are trying to outlaw they are making rules with such a broad envelope that they are basically going to take away anything that isn't a basic 4 link suspension. If they want to stop this devise, fine but don't eliminate everything new suspension wise, do your research instead of blindingly making rules that eliminates innovation and make the proper rules.

I know many don't know or haven't been told what the rules will likely be, but basically they are talking like you can't do anything different then a STD 4 bar. Too Quote a series lead tech official (the one that makes the rules) when I asked to define what you call STD or clarify some wording his response was classic: "IF I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT AND DON'T LIKE IT, YOU CAN'T RUN IT." WTF, kind of rule is that?

Keep in mind that whatever lucas/Woo does most other series are going to follow, so these new rules are going to effect pretty much everyone including Modifieds as USMTS and USRA and others are most likely going to follow.

[Matt49]

Straight from Rumley's FB page:
"I feel like I'm being persecuted for having an education. The left rear device was using common sense to solve an obvious problem, no real engineering used at all. When a rule is blindly created that's when it gets expensive. It's going to take $36k to do the same thing within the proposed rules. That's about how much it would take to design a mono-leaf to function as a current 4-link. See where I'm going with this?"

And I agree with him 100%. You show me the size of a rule book and I'll tell you how much it will cost to be competitive in that class. NASCAR has rule books the size of an NYC phone directory and you aren't getting your foot in the door without a 8-figure budget. All because of rules that were intended to keep costs down but instead forced people to do more with less and ultimately spending more money in engineering to do it.
Innovation and engineering are NOT the same thing. If the people that wrote the rules understood that, we'd all be a lot better off.

[25drtrkr]

What do yall think about this? Since Rumley has contractual ties to Longhorn, I wonder if Lucas officials thought this device was too "self-serving"? In other words, shouldn't they have been selling it to other Longhorn owners instead of "hoarding" it for themselves? Im pretty sure none of us knows the details of his contract with Longhorn. Something just dont add up to me, when supposedly Davenport had the only one.

[fastford]

I think it is a way to control and dampen left rear drop , which also controls rear steer , from inside the car. His statement " The left rear device was using common sense to solve an obvious problem" speaks volumes. I have not read all the rules, but some say you can only have a brake bias adjuster inside the car. they may consider this to be like the on board weight jacking device and not allow it. just thinking out loud but it would be nice to control rear steer from inside the car. no matter what, its given me and a lot of others something to ponder.........

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

What do yall think about this? Since Rumley has contractual ties to Longhorn, I wonder if Lucas officials thought this device was too "self-serving"? In other words, shouldn't they have been selling it to other Longhorn owners instead of "hoarding" it for themselves? Im pretty sure none of us knows the details of his contract with Longhorn. Something just dont add up to me, when supposedly Davenport had the only one.

Its simple. They have 10 series regulars crying foul. That is all.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

36k $ to do the same thing within the proposed rules... thats just plain stupid talk. To believe anyone would quote it much less believe it is entertaining. It wouldn't cost 36 grand to convert a leaf car to a 4 link car, for 36 grand you could buy how many new chassis?

Usra and USMTS changed or clarified suspension rules last year because someone with a cantilever set up for a pull bar won half the races. It already should have been illegal, but either way the guy still won most of the races he ran this year with a conventional set up.

I think his point went over your head. He is talking about engineering "solid" links to behave as springs. As part of a more complex system. It was tongue in cheek, but has nothing to do with a leaf spring to 4 link conversion.

[zeroracing]

Also in high end tour quality late models $36 grand will buy you about 3/4 of a full roller.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Materials engineering and testing is very expensive. It is my business.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If the rules are solid links, then I guess he should thank them for saving him 36 grand.

Everything on earth has a spring constant. It is cheaper to just let a guy run the spring he wants. If he can't, he spends 36 grand to circumvent the rule.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

It's yet to be proven he can circumvent the rule.

I can circumvent the rule. And he is a God. Lol

[FlatTire]

Over the years ive learned that when you add traction to one corner you need to add it to another to keep things balanced and headed in the intended direction. So with rumleys device adding additional traction to the LR, did this facilitate the need to put the RR in the cushion to get the car to turn? JD seemed to run better on tracks with a good top side than he did on those with a dominant slicked off lower groove.

[hucktyson]

Everyone on this board knows more about how to make the rumley left rear work than rumley does. And everyone on this board has won more money In a year than rumley has also .... Just ask them and they will tell you.... The funny thing is they don't want it banned because they think they figured it out not realizing that rumley has probably moved on to something better already anyway lol

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Everyone on this board knows more about how to make the rumley left rear work than rumley does. And everyone on this board has won more money In a year than rumley has also .... Just ask them and they will tell you.... The funny thing is they don't want it banned because they think they figured it out not realizing that rumley has probably moved on to something better already anyway lol
I was at the same track as Davenport (to race) twice this year. I don't care what he has.

I finally got my head out of the sand and realized I had the ability to do some things. My budget wasn't as limiting as I once thought it was.

[FlatTire]

Huck, why u such a hater? Some ghetto hooker shart when you were doing the deed?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Huck, why u such a hater? Some ghetto hooker shart when you were doing the deed?

He is salty that he declined to take the pictures because he thought it was smoke and mirrors.

[powerslide]

Hucky at PRI

[JJ128]

Nothing went over my head. That's the point he is talking out his azz. His example was cost to make a mono leaf car work like a link car of todays standards, it was his stupid example not mine.

If 36 grand is 3/4 of a roller then you have made my point.

The way I understood his comment was using a mono-leaf or "half leaf" or some type of flexible / spring steel material in place or the LRU link rod, if a rule was put in place to make the spring rod/biscuit/shock contraption illegal. Not making a leaf car work like a 4 bar. As far as the 36k, maybe he thinks it would cost a grand in track rental, tires, fuel, engine wear, and prototype pieces to try each material, and it would take 36 tries to find the best one. Or maybe that cost estimate was pulled out of the azz........

[hucktyson]

Let him spend that 36k then just mandate the 4 link rod material and specify a range of allowable angles .

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Let him spend that 36k then just mandate the 4 link rod material and specify a range of allowable angles .

Maybe Lucas can just bring 24 cars to the track, have Kenny Kenneda set them up, and then they race. Sounds fun!

[moonshine]

If they want to really save teams money, a tire rule would save twice the money.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If they want to really save teams money, a tire rule would save twice the money.

They already have that. A piece of junk with Lucas badging that wears twice as fast as the economy equivalent.

[Kromulous]

Looking at the device, and how he drives the car.

I think the LR chain, and the little shock portion are clamped to the axle. Using the chains connection to the BC / Clamp device as the pivot point. When he gets on the gas, it uses axle wrap to add more top bar indexing in, via separating the top bar portion from the chains pivot point. Once the traction and axle wrap decrease the little shock makes sure the rear end doesn't over index, and returns back to its neutral, as well as dampens the entire action.

Over Indexing is the common problem with a 4 bar car, well, getting enough travel to over index with std shock lengths and bar lengths. You can run short bars and over index easy, and have abrupt traction, and then loose. So uses longer bars, longer duration of traction, and cant get enough index / bar angle.

Reduce drop on the LR will keep the rear end more square in the car, and you can drive it straighter coming off the corner, but if its tight off you can throttle thru it. Plus its using the axle wrap on the LR to help keep the car up on the LR and RF down at all times.

Basically using the force of the rear end to pry up the LR of the body / car. Also i think thats why he has so much pre-load in that LR spring, keeps the car up against the chains pivot point at all times on the track, and apply throttle as needed to steer, thru the corners.

Just guessing, fun to look over and figure out.

[Matt49]

Kevin Rumley was using an argument known as "reductio ad absurdum". For those that think I'm ill-witted for having quoted it or agreeing with him, I suggest picking up a logic textbook. Or watch reruns of Big Bang Theory until you figure it out.
Kevin Rumley is a smart guy. His attempt at humor and proving a point simultaneously falls on deaf ears to the majority of the people in our sport. It's a shame.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

bahaha.. only you and masterbuilt are smart enough to get it hahaha..

Logic tells me you two are not rocket scientists or innovators !

Don't need to be a Rocket scientist. I am a racer and an engineer. That is enough.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Aww and you prove my point!

"my attempt at humor and proving a point simultaneously falls on deaf ears to the majority of the people in our sport who think they are smarter than the rest of us commoners. It's a shame."


Says you, where do we go to see the things you make, sell, build and have designed for the racing industry?

I have a day job. I don't build things to sell. I make things for myself.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Aww man your engineer degree must have shorted you on the basic reading and comprehension education.

You answered you don't "sell".. ok Ill re word the above question for you to simplify it and wait on the edge of my seat for your reply!!

"Says you, where do we go to see the things you make, build and have designed for the racing industry?"
You are slow. If I don't sell, I don't show.

[RacerX10]

Probably the most important question to ask about this gadget .... "will we be talking about it a year from now ?"

I doubt it, but I've been wrong before :)

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Yes I know Im slow compared to you and matt, we all are according to you guys.

Sprinkle some more big words into your post next time so you can say I need to look up some definitions again why don't ya!

Never said I was smarter. Just that you missed Rumley point.

[Dirtmod13]

Yes I know Im slow compared to you and matt, we all are according to you guys. Sprinkle some more big words into your post next time so you can say I need to look up some definitions again why don't ya!Dude, chill!Remember everyone, including billet, saying how they stopped replying on these boards?!Speak your mind/ opinion on the subject at hand and leave the emotion for the high school girls. I'm not on here much and I even get sick of hearing this crap. Get over it.

[Matt49]

Wow...I don't recall saying anybody was stupid or that I was smarter than anybody else.
If something I said offends somebody, I guess that's somebody's problem but it sure isn't mine.
I have nothing to sell so therefore nothing to lose by not making friends on a message board.

And yes, Dirtmod13, very good point. You get on here and try to discuss ideas and somebody is always willing to cut you down and do it in such a way that the argument seems to be that being ignorant is superior to attempt to learn or understand something.

[keeks]

I really like MBR's responses to may topics. He answers cryptically sometimes, making you think about it rather than giving away everything. He is a valuable resource for us racers.

[fastford]

Wow...I don't recall saying anybody was stupid or that I was smarter than anybody else.
If something I said offends somebody, I guess that's somebody's problem but it sure isn't mine.
I have nothing to sell so therefore nothing to lose by not making friends on a message board.

And yes, Dirtmod13, very good point. You get on here and try to discuss ideas and somebody is always willing to cut you down and do it in such a way that the argument seems to be that being ignorant is superior to attempt to learn or understand something.

your absolutely correct matt, and if you look back, its usually always the same one........its ok to argue, some times you learn that way, but its the way one argues, the name calling and degrading needs to be kept in the gossip section......

[old17ford]

I really like MBR's responses to may topics. He answers cryptically sometimes, making you think about it rather than giving away everything. He is a valuable resource for us racers.

I have known Mastersbuilt Racer for years he has helped us a lot over the years . He is a lot smarter than i am but he is always willing to help. Some times he gets over my head im old school racer things are not like 4o years ago . How is that Rayburn doing MBR ?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have known Mastersbuilt Racer for years he has helped us a lot over the years . He is a lot smarter than i am but he is always willing to help. Some times he gets over my head im old school racer things are not like 4o years ago . How is that Rayburn doing MBR ?

She is about 0.8 seconds a lap faster than she was a year ago.

[25drtrkr]

She is about 0.8 seconds a lap faster than she was a year ago.

Whats the connection mbracer between your username and actually racing a rayburn?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Whats the connection mbracer between your username and actually racing a rayburn?

I have mostly owned and raced Mastersbilt. That is what I had when I joined 4m centuries ago. I have been helping a friend with a Rayburn this past season. I have not driven for a number of years.

[old17ford]

Whats the connection mbracer between your username and actually racing a rayburn?

Im trying to convert him over to a RAYBURN and FORD !

[25drtrkr]

I have mostly owned and raced Mastersbilt. That is what I had when I joined 4m centuries ago. I have been helping a friend with a Rayburn this past season. I have not driven for a number of years.

Did you ever race in Florida besides Speedweeks?

[TGoulet1113]

I do agree with one thing. First off, let me give props for Mr. Rumley being a genius and thinking outside the box. THAT IS HIS JOB. He did it well. We are where we are because of technical advances and people working hard to do their homework. If it weren't for these guys, our latemodels would be Model Ts. I never believed in punishing a guy who was just being smart and worked hard with spending thousands of dollars. Remember when twisting a frame on a street stock and then welding the cage on was the big thing? Well, it took a guy willing to work hard and be smart. IT DIDN'T COST A (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) THING. Now Rumley put together something that costed less than it costs to rewrite the rule books. Shame on the powers that be who want to punish Davenport Rumley for hard work. That is all.