Penalties For Tire Tampering- REVOLUTION Super Late Model Series

[Jimmy Henry]

Policing tires are going to be the backbone of this series.
Make no mistake, we are very serious about tire tampering and this series will only be as good as its teching.

Racers, since this is YOUR series, what are appropriate penalties for tire rules infractions?

Thanks,

Jimmy Henry
REVOLUTION Super Late Model Series
"For the racers, by the racers"

[153J]

so... what tracks?

[onlyfacts]

so... what tracks?I already asked that question and got no response.Maybe Dreamland or Pipe Dream Speedway.

[Jimmy Henry]

And I asked you what your name was...with no response.
Maybe not interested in letting people know who you are?

[153J]

and i asked , what tracks?

[Jimmy Henry]

We hope to have a working schedule released by mid-February.
Creating a new series is no easy undertaking, particularly getting a very late start.

It is a work in progress. The key is going to be racers letting the promoters know they will support this.

[Jimmy Henry]

Since you are short for words when asked your name onlyfacts, I will ask another question:

What is so unrealistic about the proposed purse structures and point fund we are trying to build?

[Austin34471]

policing tires are going to be the backbone of this series.
Make no mistake, we are very serious about tire tampering and this series will only be as good as its teching.

Racers, since this is your series, what are appropriate penalties for tire rules infractions?

Thanks,

jimmy henry
revolution super late model series
"for the racers, by the racers"
Burn them!!!

[pink floyd]

what part of the country will this series operate in??

[Jimmy Henry]

Looking at a 4-hour area from Morgantown,WV.

[Jim11h]

3 race suspension for driver & car owner, loss of pts & money, & most importantly let everyone know what exactly infraction was per rule....... Puplic humiliation can sometimes be the most severe penalty among your peers & fans.

[ClampedUp]

Lose all money from the event, all points money, and pay a fine (to be added to the points fund) equal to the first place winnings of the event you cheated in once the 1 year suspension is up if they want to race the series again.
1st offense = 1 year suspension
2nd offense = lifetime ban

If you can, get all your supporting tracks to honor the suspension at their regular shows and other special events too.

[Jimmy Henry]

I appreciate your input, guys.

Not only will this save racers thousands in tire bills, but the spec tire rule will also allow the underfunded teams a real opportunity to be competitive in the series.

[Austin34471]

I appreciate your input, guys.

Not only will this save racers thousands in tire bills, but the spec tire rule will also allow the underfunded teams a real opportunity to be competitive in the series.
The ONLY way to police tire prep is by taking lab samples. The sniffer and the durometer are extremely beatable.

If you wanna do it right, take samples from the winner, the pole sitter, and 1 name drawn out of a hat to take a sample after qualifying, and one random sample after the race.

[Jimmy Henry]

I agree, Austin34471...lab samples are the best way to police this issue properly and that is how it will be done.

[pink floyd]

Looking at a 4-hour area from Morgantown,WV.

that would be nice. start small and build it into something special so that all tracks will want to participate. best wishes to you.

[Jimmy Henry]

Thanks, pink floyd.

We are looking at building a regional brand..not trying to compete with the national tours.

[pink floyd]

Thanks, pink floyd.

We are looking at building a regional brand..not trying to compete with the national tours.

welcome buddy. hope you have all minimum 5k to win shows. you could and would build an incredible regional following that way.

[formercrewguy]

Some of these penalties mentioned above are too sever for a regional series. I would say, just a random sample each night after the A main. If it comes back positive, that car is dq'ed for the night and put on probation for 1 yr. Good luck with your new series.

[Jimmy Henry]

Thanks, I appreciate it. :)

[MidTnDirtFan]

I wish you luck getting this and any series started. I am not a tech man so this is a fans perspective. Send sample of winning car and the so called hard charger. If they test positive then suspend them for on month and include a fine. Word of mouth is a great equalizer in preventing the infraction from happening again so if you have a website post the rules infraction. That could be any infraction not just tires but safety, equipment. or whatever. A few years back there was a regional series that started out strong but fell into the hands of favoritism. You have to be fare with everyone. Don't let politics ruin your series!!!! Best of luck and thanks for asking.

[let-r-eat]

Normal durometer tests in the chute with a good machine! Pull one over on the long caution and stick it to it if there is probable cause! Sticks less than the chute send them to the pits.

Let everyone know it's at the series discretion and there is no recourse.

[RoundNrOUND]

By the comments it's VERY obvious most of you(including the promoter) don't have a clue about tire prep and or tires. First let's start with the famous "a spec tire rule will save racers money" bull. They don't save anyone money, they make the tire manufacturer more money and whomever the tire manufacturer is paying to make a said spec tire rule more money. Tires that are typically picked(and almost every tire for that matter) slow down dramatically after they are run. With this result you are going to have the same thing we have anywhere else and that's the teams with money with new tires every time winning.

Now onto the prep issue. NOT ALL PREPS MAKE THE TIRE SOFTER NOR WEAR OUT QUICKER. There are preps out there that will help the lower budget racer stay more competitive on a lower budget because they won't see the speed drop off as the amount of times the tire is run goes up. So instead of getting 1-2 nights out of a right rear(meanwhile the second time on the tire it dropped off a half second) these same guys can get 2-3-4 nights out of a right rear and the tire only drops off a tenth. The people that should be saying that tire prep costs them money is Hoosier because it causes less tire sales.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just some guy who's been able to make a living in racing being a driver, team owner and now just a crew guy on a nationally touring team. My advice to the promoter is to actually do your homework here and quit watching what all the other series are doing who are getting their pockets lined by the tire manufacturers.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

By the comments it's VERY obvious most of you(including the promoter) don't have a clue about tire prep and or tires. First let's start with the famous "a spec tire rule will save racers money" bull. They don't save anyone money, they make the tire manufacturer more money and whomever the tire manufacturer is paying to make a said spec tire rule more money. Tires that are typically picked(and almost every tire for that matter) slow down dramatically after they are run. With this result you are going to have the same thing we have anywhere else and that's the teams with money with new tires every time winning.

Now onto the prep issue. NOT ALL PREPS MAKE THE TIRE SOFTER NOR WEAR OUT QUICKER. There are preps out there that will help the lower budget racer stay more competitive on a lower budget because they won't see the speed drop off as the amount of times the tire is run goes up. So instead of getting 1-2 nights out of a right rear(meanwhile the second time on the tire it dropped off a half second) these same guys can get 2-3-4 nights out of a right rear and the tire only drops off a tenth. The people that should be saying that tire prep costs them money is Hoosier because it causes less tire sales.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just some guy who's been able to make a living in racing being a driver, team owner and now just a crew guy on a nationally touring team. My advice to the promoter is to actually do your homework here and quit watching what all the other series are doing who are getting their pockets lined by the tire manufacturers.

Boom! On the money! While I agree with pretty much all of this, I would prefer to see prep out of the picture and tire choice available. But, it is pretty tough to bust the good tire cheats.

[Jimmy Henry]

While I am fairly familiar with heat cycles, oil loss, etc., these are tire rules created by the racers. I have very little to do with it.

Thanks for your input, though...

[kidrock]

Lose all money from the event, all points money, and pay a fine (to be added to the points fund) equal to the first place winnings of the event you cheated in once the 1 year suspension is up if they want to race the series again.
1st offense = 1 year suspension
2nd offense = lifetime ban

If you can, get all your supporting tracks to honor the suspension at their regular shows and other special events too.

Any thing other then what ClampedUp proposed here is not really taking the problem serious.

[Bubstr]

This tire treating business has been going on for over 3 decades. No one has found a satisfactory answer for it. The spec tire usually ends with a tire that wears out or falls off after the first night and usually costs more. The main complaint about tire treatment is health issues, or you could just allow it. Seems the solution is to Tech for it and if caught using a toxic substance, the driver, owner and sponsors are put on a potential defendants list, in case anyone sues the track for damages.

It may not stop the practice but the Series, Promoters and the track will have someone to share the losses if there ever is a suit. Would you really risk, being on that list?

[GRT62]

I will add this if you are going use a lab, use one that specializes in rubber not just whoever is cheapest. By using the right lab you can pin point the chemicals being used therefor eliminating a guilty party from placing the blame on "simply green" or other tire cleaners. Send a benchmark sample in with the samples from the racers so there is not any gray area. Just my .02.

[let-r-eat]

Brand em' Make them run em until the promoter tells them they can change em. Make em bring their right rears to the drivers meeting and throw em in a pile and let the promoter hand them out.

[ONLY ON DIRT]

I have no dog in this fight, however when I worked for a touring asphalt series we required that any new tires for event be purchased at the track where a series official was present and the tires were mounted and kept in impound until the feature was ready to line up. The tires for qualifying and heats had to be from previous race. All tires were branded for the series and serial numbered. This was checked at every race, you had to turn in old tires when new purchased and #s were verified to be to that car/driver. It was a lot of work but seemed to help, we at least knew the money race was ran on unaltered tires. I know that it is probably unreasonable to expect to make everyone replace all 4 tires every race but might work if only allowed 1 new tire per night on vehicle. Just an idea.

[kidrock]

I have no dog in this fight, however when I worked for a touring asphalt series we required that any new tires for event be purchased at the track where a series official was present and the tires were mounted and kept in impound until the feature was ready to line up. The tires for qualifying and heats had to be from previous race. All tires were branded for the series and serial numbered. This was checked at every race, you had to turn in old tires when new purchased and #s were verified to be to that car/driver. It was a lot of work but seemed to help, we at least knew the money race was ran on unaltered tires. I know that it is probably unreasonable to expect to make everyone replace all 4 tires every race but might work if only allowed 1 new tire per night on vehicle. Just an idea.
And that would end it right there.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

And that would end it right there.

That would send all the low buck guys to the porch, for sure

[RoundNrOUND]

Yes it would. A one tire rule a night does not and will not work, it will only expose the lower budget guys even more.

[formercrewguy]

As usual on 4m.....this thread turned semi-insane. Stay tuned for full blown insanity.....

[kidrock]

That would send all the low buck guys to the porch, for sure

If they wanted to end tire doping that would be a way to do it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If they wanted to end tire doping that would be a way to do it.

It would eliminate all but quick application stuff. And keep a lot of guys at home.

[CGF]

Most use blue ridge lab,,,

[let-r-eat]

Just throwing out ideas that I've seen used on asphalt etc. This is a LATE MODEL series isn't it?

[Kromulous]

Reality is, nothing is as fast as a new set of cut and siped tires.

Only thing i could think of that may or probably wont work would be, to do like they do in Karting. When you go out for your heat race, your tires are marked, and that's what you run till the end. If you cut a tire, and need to put a new one on you go to the tail.

Roundnround nailed it thou, tire rules dont generally don't work because of my 1st statement. Your usually talking .3 to .5 tenths a lap with new tires over a tire with 5 to 10 runs on it.

Better tires that don't fall off as much?

Racing in general has a harsh reality, and if your looking for fair you probably need to look into another sport.

[Jimmy Henry]

You are exactly right, Kromulous.

Our tire rule will be,whatever you hot lap with is what you will run all night. Tires will be marked.

[zach51]

I honestly don't know much about tires, but if you make them run the same tires they hot lap with all night, wouldn't you also need to impound maybe 2 additional tires from each team at the drivers meeting to use in the event of a flat (or two) during the evening? That way they wouldn't be enticed to get a mystery pinhole right before the feature and ask to change a tire...?

[oldfart50]

This is only my opinion, BUT. You are 180 degrees off what I would do. I would pick a tire and say boys do what you want with it as long as its the series tire. Then you have an equal opportunity to compete. It is on the racer to prep them better than the next guy. Treated tires last longer, they do not wear out faster. That depends on the track surface. Put it in the racers hands. I would also make traction control legal. When you make things legal you no longer have to police it and the price comes down. You as a series cant afford to suspend drivers as they are your show. Before you say making tire prep legal is dangerous because of the chemicals I will remind you of two things. 1- guys are already doing it. 2- you sign a release for a reason, racing is dangerous and can kill you...

[Barbecueboy]

This is only my opinion, BUT. You are 180 degrees off what I would do. I would pick a tire and say boys do what you want with it as long as its the series tire. Then you have an equal opportunity to compete. It is on the racer to prep them better than the next guy. Treated tires last longer, they do not wear out faster. That depends on the track surface. Put it in the racers hands. I would also make traction control legal. When you make things legal you no longer have to police it and the price comes down. You as a series cant afford to suspend drivers as they are your show. Before you say making tire prep legal is dangerous because of the chemicals I will remind you of two things. 1- guys are already doing it. 2- you sign a release for a reason, racing is dangerous and can kill you...

Nice post..............never ever gonna happen, but nice post.

[oldfart50]

Nice post..............never ever gonna happen, but nice post. Thanks, but are you feeling OK? High Fever maybe?

[SuperEight]

Policing tires are going to be the backbone of this series.
Make no mistake, we are very serious about tire tampering and this series will only be as good as its teching.

Racers, since this is YOUR series, what are appropriate penalties for tire rules infractions?

Thanks,

Jimmy Henry
REVOLUTION Super Late Model Series
"For the racers, by the racers"

1 year suspension.

[Waldo]

I think Oldfart50 is right if you gave out all these suspensions, there would be nobody left to race, They will be lucky to get enough cars to race before someone is suspended.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

death penalty

[poolcuemaster]

I like Oldfart50s post (I like run what you brung) and it started me thinking since I never soaked a tire, lets hear a list of safe tire coumpounds and the maybe deadly ones that have been tried. Leonard

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I like Oldfart50s post (I like run what you brung) and it started me thinking since I never soaked a tire, lets hear a list of safe tire coumpounds and the maybe deadly ones that have been tried. Leonard

I have never treated a tire, but I am pretty sure some of the cars I have wrenched on have taken years off my life.

[SuperEight]

When i was kart racing I treated all my tires, but then I learned how bad ALL that stuff is for you. The last 2 seasons I kart raced I just bought all the compounds I needed and did nothing but clean the tires and keep them out of the sun and weather. I ran better and was doing less work. The part about treating not effecting the life of the tire is hogwash, it shortens the tires life and the treater. TC I'm not for, but I don't fear it either, it really only helps non-drivers and lazy chassis tuners be a little more consistent not necessarily faster. I like an open tire rule, but you've gotta race what you qualify on or maybe change a RR or something like that. I do not believe near as many racers are currently treating tires as some theorize. Liars never believe anyone else and cheaters tell themselves everyone else is doing it too so they'll feel ok about it.

[Kromulous]

Creasote, the black stuff they put on telephone poles, thinned out with lacquer thinner (highly carcinogenic) is the best i ever used. .5 tenths a lap on a dirt oval in a Kart back then. Oddly enough PB Blaster is good, the pentrant stuff, works pretty well. Simple green works well to clean tires and keeps them tacky.

Now days they have stuff made, goat pee ones is called LOL. If you ever want to see how bad tires can get, on a smaller scale, just go to a kart race (Dirt oval) them guys are crazy. They will take a new tire, and put it on a machine to tru it down, or cut it down, sand etc, right down to the cords. Treat it with goat pee, and then run em. There only good for 2 runs, and its about a second a lap faster, but costs you $250 bucks a crack or so. Its flat out crazy.

[formercrewguy]

Told ya it would get insane.........................

[GRT62]

Methylethylketone some bad stuff make a tire that punches 70 punch in the mid 40s but is some bad stuff extremely flammable and one whiff well give you a headache instantly just imagine what that stuff does to your lungs

[Clayton_Wetter]

PENALTY: DRAWN AND QUARTERED!!

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/03/185403-004-CB748828.jpg

[bayou tuff]

Since we've gone insane, I remember reading about a track out west that leveled the playing field by making their racers run the hardest ASPHALT tire made(economy tire they called it, $69.00) on the right rear. Grooving allowed, no siping. Seems it worked since they had different winners each week. Tire was sold at the track and was stamped. Usually was good for about 8-10 races with little or no drop off.

[SuperEight]

PENALTY: DRAWN AND QUARTERED!!

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/03/185403-004-CB748828.jpg

I like this idea or maybe 1st offense you lose a finger, cheaters choice as to which one. Second offense is the hand. I'm sure everybody will get in line pretty quick. If Ronnie Lott can take it, so can you.