Black Front needing help in the slick

[wildman31]

Driving an 05 black front 2" frame Rocket with 604 motor on gas adjustable shocks. Car is running great in tacky conditions, but terribly loose from center off when the track dries out. Here's my current setup: 54.4% Left, 51.7% Rear, 81 Pounds Bite, 425LF 300RF 225LR 225RR, JBar 8 1/2" on frame, All bars standard length, RR Lower bar up one hole, all other bars in standard holes. Running a banked quarter mile. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

[phenom08]

Couple things to try increase rear % to 53-53.5, 200 lr spring, lower the bottom rr bar back to std

[grt74]

if the cars is that good in the beginning of the night,just drop the lr lower one hole,or take out some stagger

[PushinTheLimit]

I 2nd adding some rear weight. That's pretty low for a slick track.

[talclipse]

Is the car loose off or just lacking forward drive off? As the track slicks off are you making any adjustments or is this where you are at once the track dries out?

The first thing I would do is get the rear percentage up between 53% - 54%. What was your reasoning for going up to a 225 LR? It's been a while since I messed with the black front stuff but from what I remember 300# was a pretty stiff spring back in the day on those cars.

If you are truly loose off (RR trying to pass the RF and counter steering) I would look at rolling the RR forward a couple turns and see how you like that.

How is your entry in the slick? A stumble on entry will cause you to trip and fall on exit.

[wildman31]

It's what you're describing, rear is trying to outrun the front when I get back in the gas. This is the setup I tried in the dry. When the track is heavy, I have both right side bars in the upper holes and it's running great. I'm also working on braking strategy on entry to help the problem.

[Drop Shock]

I would try raising left side rods and shortening the left top rod 3-4 turns. Also wouldn't run the right bottom rod up in the slick.

[N2Racin]

I have a Black front car that is also loose and no drive. Loose entering corner. I have 550 LF 375 RF 200 RR 250 RR I noticed in Wildman setup the LF and RR are softer than mine. Will that tighten car? I can't even hardly give it any gas on restarts. I have a limited all steel motor not 604. 5th coil is 300lb on gas shock 54 left 54 rear with driver in car

[DEKconsulting]

Way to stiff on the rf u need to be from a 275 to a 250. I never had any luck running using the left front to help free the car up just seemef like it wanted to lay over on rr. But 500 lf or 550, 275 rf to start then go to a 250 for feature, 175 lr, 225 rr 250 if on a momentum type track. Start bars off at standard and jbar std. Start with puttin jbar angle in as track slicks off. Then rock up left side for feature normally i would go anywhere from 4 to 6 turns on the lf and 6 to 8 on lr. Then if more is needed drop rrl bar down a hole. 54.0 to 54.5 left side% 54.5 to 55% rear% anywhere from 100 to 130 lbs of bite. And then drive the guts out of that bitch u cant lallegag around with thrm black front cars.

[RacerX10]

Way to stiff on the rf u need to be from a 275 to a 250. I never had any luck running using the left front to help free the car up just seemef like it wanted to lay over on rr. But 500 lf or 550, 275 rf to start then go to a 250 for feature, 175 lr, 225 rr 250 if on a momentum type track. Start bars off at standard and jbar std. Start with puttin jbar angle in as track slicks off. Then rock up left side for feature normally i would go anywhere from 4 to 6 turns on the lf and 6 to 8 on lr. Then if more is needed drop rrl bar down a hole. 54.0 to 54.5 left side% 54.5 to 55% rear% anywhere from 100 to 130 lbs of bite. And then drive the guts out of that bitch u cant lallegag around with thrm black front cars.


Does all this apply to a blue/grey car too ?

Thanks !

[DEKconsulting]

Not quite dont need too be quite as soft on rf and alot of other stuff

[brett4]

DEK... What do mean by rock up the left side????

[RacerX10]

DEK... What do mean by rock up the left side????

I was wondering about this too, because I see two different things mentioned about this .. "rock" and/or "tilt"

He seems to be going with raising the left side by putting rounds in both LF and LR, but I've also heard of, and the rocket book says, put turns IN the LR but OUT of the RF.

[DEKconsulting]

Turns in lf and lr just go a cpl more on lr. We r only taking turns out of the rf if is the 375to 350.

[Matt49]

Old trick but still a good one...especially if you don't have adjustable shocks for fine tuning. We call it "tilting" the car.
When the track gets slick, add 6 turns to the LR, add 4 turns to the LF, and take 3 turns out of the RF.

[DEKconsulting]

Yeap oldy but goody. Like i said before only go in small steps cause more times than so u will over tighten and be screwed do small steps and u will get there. If u make a bunch of changes for the feature and u are way to tight u wont know where to start backing out but if u make small changes u can go foward with another adjustment rather than chasing ur tail all night we've all done it and its not fun.

[RacerX10]

Old trick but still a good one...especially if you don't have adjustable shocks for fine tuning.

.. or if you DO have them and don't know wtf you are doing (i'm looking at me)

:) :) :)

[N2Racin]

Done a little testing, I think my first issue was to much gear. Question on softer RF. It seems as though I lost traction/drive as we got softer.

[RacerX10]

It seems as though I lost traction/drive as we got softer.

You definitely lost traction as you got softer on RF unless you did something else to compensate.

[HMS27]

I run a 425 LF 375RF 175LR and 200RR. I am not allowed to run stacked springs or bump stops. I'm pretty happy with this setup. My question is when your talking about a 250 or 275 RF are you talking about a stacked spring or do you really run that soft with a straight up spring?

[DEKconsulting]

Yes we run a barrel type when i get that soft just so im not coil binding but yes we do grt that soft on a std spring. Yes we did have to compensate for lack of drive other places in setup.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have successfully run a 175# rf on a modified Rayburn.

[HMS27]

I've thought about going softer on the RF but haven't yet.

[DEKconsulting]

Yea we usually run barrel springs if that low to keep from coil binding

[CCHIEF]

No barrel springs on front. Hperco makes a 275 spring that will work.....good luck getting one right now. You will need a well selected/fitted bump to have any drive. And it will be tight as a frogs ass getting in. And with a black car , even with a raised rail, it will put the rail and cross member on the ground. Stick with old school deals on black cars.

[DEKconsulting]

Good luck keeping up with all the new school technology running the old school setups. If its eorking for ya keep on getting it.

[CCHIEF]

Good luck keeping up with all the new school technology running the old school setups. If its eorking for ya keep on getting it. Give a few examples of a black fe DLM rocket winning on a slick track....recently. And how to make a black car go with the lf down.... in the slick. The black front end was not designed to work with that much travel.

[CCHIEF]

Yes we run a barrel type when i get that soft just so im not coil binding but yes we do grt that soft on a std spring. Yes we did have to compensate for lack of drive other places in setup. How do you compensate for lack of drive. Not being an ass, but tell it all or don't talk!

[Matt49]

You compensate for lack of drive by doing the opposite of what you did to get rid of it but somewhere else on the car. You kill forward bite when you soften the RF spring because you have LOST dynamic wedge. So you need to do something to get dynamic wedge BACK. But almost all of those things come with unwanted consequences on corner ENTRY. Which means you need to go do something to compensate for that which could have unwanted consequences on corner EXIT. So you end up with a series of changes that you need to make to get the overall balance you're looking for back in the car. A lot depends on driver. A lot depends on track configuration. There is not a "tell it all" secret formula that is a one-size-fits-all setup for a soft RF spring setup.
I'll provide an example:
You go to a softer RF spring and obviously you've lost dynamic wedge and therefore lost forward (LR) bite coming off the corner. So we need to get it back. Let's drop the RR upper bar on the chassis. Now we've decreased RR drive which increases LR drive so now we've got our forward bite on exit back. But we also decreased birdcage indexing on the RR which will free corner entry. So now we need to tighten corner entry...naturally we go and stiffen the LF spring because that will have the least effect on exit. Problem solved right? Not really because we don't know how much to move the RR upper bar and then how much to stiffen the LF spring. That takes testing and depends on the driver and nobody is going to just open up their setup book revealing what they spent many hours and many $$$ figuring out the hard way.

[DEKconsulting]

Exactly what matt said i cant sit here and tell u what to do to make ur car win exactly without seeing it run only make suggestions chief. As matt said again ur defintly not goin to get my note book from the past ten yrs ur gonna have to spend ur own time making ur own book like everyone else does. Sorry that i didnt have ur secret setup to share with you all. But once again the ones looking for the secret setup that everyone is running is usually the ones running mid pack and getting lapped cause their is "NO" MAGIC SETUP.

[DEKconsulting]

Not being an ass or anything

[CCHIEF]

Not being an ass or anything Your not, and I have no intent either. So that is gone and we agree we are going to give productive help to others out there. There is a certain amount of responsibility when you speak of running that soft on the RF on older cars. You know how bad that car will be with all else the same. I'll add when I have more time.

[N2Racin]

Well I stiffened rr to a 275 thinking it would plant RR. 550 lf 375 rf 200 lr 53.2 left, 54.4 rear, both bottom bars low as they go, top bars standard middle holes, ,This thing was terrible free on a slck track. Black Rocket

[DEKconsulting]

If u dont mind me asking what is ur reasoning for ur lrlbar to be all the way down

[N2Racin]

Trying to tighten car, it is very loose

[DEKconsulting]

You are takin away all ur thrust angle out of ur lr bar. What type track or what track u run. Not sayin u are but without me seein u on the track my guess would be that u are way to tight on ur entry and breaking the car loose to turn the center.

[DEKconsulting]

Or u have something bound up or bent

[MBR Performance]

Message me I don't mind sharing my notebook.

[grt74]

Well I stiffened rr to a 275 thinking it would plant RR. 550 lf 375 rf 200 lr 53.2 left, 54.4 rear, both bottom bars low as they go, top bars standard middle holes, ,This thing was terrible free on a slck track. Black Rocket

if you dropped the lr bottom bar,you'll need to make sure it didn't cam over,it will kill your drive

[N2Racin]

GRT 74 I think that is what happened.

MBR Performance gave me some good info on things to check on LR drop and bar angles. I also moved right front shock in1 inch at top for clearance of the shock. Ran a lot better. Cross member and tie rod bolt on ground now.