Milliken DQ'd 4/30 WoO

[Spongebob]

http://www.dirtondirt.com/dirtwire.php?id=3724

[zach51]

Dayum.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Tires?,........

[W2Racing09]

That really sucks... but congrats to Brian Shriley either way. That gives him his first WoO win of the season.

[W2Racing09]

Tires?,........

Yes, his tires didn't meet the benchmark in several lab tests.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[jlacey]

That really does suck, but atleast Shirley was 2nd so another win wasnt handed to anyone.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

There ya have it folks. $12,280 fine good job slick willie!

[dirtdobber45]

Sucks for him. Thout it was a lil funny he was pulling away from the pack but o well. Congrats to the squirrel

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Sucks for him. Thout it was a lil funny he was pulling away from the pack but o well. Congrats to the squirrel

It might not have even helped him, that's the sad part.

[TerryM]

So much for that feel good story ...

[racenut]

Willie Milliken Disqualified Following Failed Post-Race Inspection at Fayetteville

CONCORD, N.C. - May 19, 2016 - The World of Outlaws Craftsman® Late Model Series has disqualified Willie Milliken following a failed post-race inspection at Fayetteville Motor Speedway on Saturday, April 30, 2016.

Tire samples collected from Milliken's feature-winning car that were tested multiple times by an independent laboratory were found to be in violation of rules 15.11-G and 15.11-I. Those rules are as follows:

G.) The altering of any tire compound, by any means will not be permitted. Chemical alteration of the tread carcass and/or tread compound, such as tire 'soaking' and/or the introduction of tread 'softener' and/or physical defacement (removal, altering and/ or covering) of tire sidewall markings in any manner will not be permitted.

I.) Chemical alterations, vulcanizing, tire softening, defacing and/or altering the face of the tire lettering and/or tire stamping will not be permitted. Chemicals or tire softening is not permitted at any time. Tires may be inspected at any time.

Milliken's disqualification from the event includes a loss of all purse money, championship points and a fine for a total of $12,280. In addition to monetary fines and penalties, Milliken has been fined an additional 1,000 championship points, suspended from all World of Outlaws and DIRTcar sanctioned events until July 30 and placed on probation until the end of the 2016 season.

The win has been awarded to Brian Shirley.

[xray]

If willie wanted to beat the outlaws he needed to spend 300k on a hauler, 20 - 30 days testing a year and race 60+ nights. Shame on him for having a job and beating those kids

[xray]

They (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ed him even harder because hes not a WRG member he cant appeal. (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) woo

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

They (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)ed him even harder because hes not a WRG member he cant appeal. (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) woo

How do u figure?

Nothing to appeal.

Slick willie screwed himself!

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

If willie wanted to beat the outlaws he needed to spend 300k on a hauler, 20 - 30 days testing a year and race 60+ nights. Shame on him for having a job and beating those kids


No not true. All he needed is legal tires!

[W2Racing09]

If willie wanted to beat the outlaws he needed to spend 300k on a hauler, 20 - 30 days testing a year and race 60+ nights. Shame on him for having a job and beating those kids

He didn't beat them -- in order to do that he would of had to have been legal.

[xray]

Pry had take offs from Richards

[W2Racing09]

Pry had take offs from Richards

Yet Richards passes tech/tire testing every time he wins.

[zach51]

Keep in mind it isn't like he passed any cars. Does WOO automatically test the tires of the winner of every race or do they have to be protested?

[GA-DIRT]

Keep in mind it isn't like he passed any cars. Does WOO automatically test the tires of the winner of every race or do they have to be protested?

Shoot even Ray's series checks tires you know he caught Hippie👍

[W2Racing09]

Keep in mind it isn't like he passed any cars. Does WOO automatically test the tires of the winner of every race or do they have to be protested?

I'm pretty sure it is common for both of the top series to check tires of the top 3 at all events. I know it is pretty common place in a lot of series' as well. They probably duro the tires and if they fall outside of a certain range then they get sent to a lab.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[zach51]

Hey BB! I assumed they checked at least durometer and stamp in every series but I wasn't aware they do the whole "send off to lab" thing every time.

EDIT: Thanks for the info Jeff, I didn't see your post before I reposted.

[xray]

Yet Richards passes tech/tire testing every time he wins.



There is no transparency in the testing procedure. Just because he has not been penalized its not impossible that he has been caught......

[drano]

Hope he didn't spend the money already.

[W2Racing09]

There is no transparency in the testing procedure. Just because he has not been penalized its not impossible that he has been caught......

Right, I'm sure he is illegal every time he crossed the scales. Not only is WoO looking the other way - but LOLMDS, UMP Sanctioned Events, and even Unsanctioned events as well. He just gets a pass everywhere.

[xray]

Right because he only has one set of tires he runs everywhere....?!

[Josh Bayko]

Right because he only has one set of tires he runs everywhere....?!

This doesn't even make sense.

[Barbecueboy]

Right, I'm sure he is illegal every time he crossed the scales. Not only is WoO looking the other way - but LOLMDS, UMP Sanctioned Events, and even Unsanctioned events as well. He just gets a pass everywhere.
If think that perk only goes to dad.........but I could be mistaken.

[WisWildManFan]

Had a driver at Fairbury tell me that top teams get to hand pick tires from Hoosier and therefore are already ahead of everyone else in the tire game. Basically he said whoever spends the most throughout a year gets the best tires available. Anyone know if there is any truth to this or just an excuse to run behind them every week?

[W2Racing09]

If think that perk only goes to dad.........but I could be mistaken.

I don't think Mark Richards gets that perk either. Nobody does. Not Bloomquist, not Owens, not Davenport, not Richards, nobody. Its not some conspiracy to take down "the little guy". As Christman said -- it is bad for the sport for this type of stuff to happen, but even worse to let it go. I'm glad it was caught, it shows everyone from Davenport/Bloomquist/Richards all the way down the line to the local guy who runs a single race all year.. don't try to cheat.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

Had a driver at Fairbury tell me that top teams get to hand pick tires from Hoosier and therefore are already ahead of everyone else in the tire game. Basically he said whoever spends the most throughout a year gets the best tires available. Anyone know if there is any truth to this or just an excuse to run behind them every week?

Its probably true I'm sure. You want to keep your best clients happy. I doubt they go to Indiana and hand pick 500 tires in January or anything, but I'm sure Hoosier double and triple checks every tire that gets sent to Richards or Bloomquist or anyone else.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[drano]

[QUOTE=W2Racing09;2007652]I don't think Mark Richards gets that perk either. Nobody does. Not Bloomquist, not Owens, not Davenport, not Richards, nobody. Its not some conspiracy to take down "the little guy". As Christman said -- it is bad for the sport for this type of stuff to happen, but even worse to let it go. I'm glad it was caught, it shows everyone from Davenport/Bloomquist/Richards all the way down the line to the local guy who runs a single race all year.. don't try to cheat.

Thanks,
Jeff.[/Q
Don't fool yourself they all cheat in some way, its just tires are not a good area to easy to get caught.

[W2Racing09]

[QUOTE=W2Racing09;2007652]I don't think Mark Richards gets that perk either. Nobody does. Not Bloomquist, not Owens, not Davenport, not Richards, nobody. Its not some conspiracy to take down "the little guy". As Christman said -- it is bad for the sport for this type of stuff to happen, but even worse to let it go. I'm glad it was caught, it shows everyone from Davenport/Bloomquist/Richards all the way down the line to the local guy who runs a single race all year.. don't try to cheat.

Thanks,
Jeff.[/Q
Don't fool yourself they all cheat in some way, its just tires are not a good area to easy to get caught.

Oh I agree there for sure, if after every race you could take every car down to the frame and check everything you could probably compile several pages of rule infractions. As you said though, tires are probably one of the worst areas to cheat or try to gain an advantage (they are easy to tech and highly scrutinized). To me tires are one of the biggest deals in terms of cheating as well, so it is good that they check that on a regular basis.

[zach51]

Yep, the tires are the only thing that touches the ground (ideally)

[slide-skill]

Oh yea it helped , but not really

[derricklong38]

Then why do it if it didn't help

[Aces&Eights]

Sucks for him. Thout it was a lil funny he was pulling away from the pack but o well. Congrats to the squirrel

Could be as simple as they used "Simple Green" to clean the tires. I don't know the guy, he's been running good this season, almost won an Ultimate or Clash race at the same track just a few weeks prior. So I wasn't surprised to see him running up front. Hate it for him and his team if it was a simple goof with cleaner, but its happened to enough guys now they should've known not to use it, if they did. Now if they were doping tires and they got busted, then good, that's whats suppose to happen. If it was a "Simple Green" deal I don't believe it played a roll in the outcome of the race. JMO



Don't fool yourself they all cheat in some way, its just tires are not a good area to easy to get caught.
I'm curious what rules you think are being broken, since so much is open anyway? The engine is open, Fuel injection would be visible, Nitros woud be of little use except maybe in qualifying, you can see under the car so independent suspension is out. TC isnt the magic fix so many uselessly fear, so what area is it you imagine is the sweet spot? The bodies get tech'd prior to and after, shocks are scrutinized, so what is left? I think people that cheat usually believe everybody else is cheating too. Kinda like liars never believe anyone either...

[zach51]

Yes but still, if is softens the tire beyond specs, too bad. If a dog were to wander in the shop and piss on it, same thing. Driver's responsibility to know what is on/in their tires just like a pro-athlete is responsible for knowing what is in their bodies. Ignorance is not an excuse.

[Aces&Eights]

Yes but still, if is softens the tire beyond specs, too bad. If a dog were to wander in the shop and piss on it, same thing. Driver's responsibility to know what is on/in their tires just like a pro-athlete is responsible for knowing what is in their bodies. Ignorance is not an excuse.

They didn't say the tire were soft, the release says, "there were chemicals present that exceeded or were not part of the benchmark", NOT soft. Big difference.

[slmcrewchief99]

Spraying "Simple Green" on them to clean them won't get you. What gets you is if you spray it on them and leave it a day or 2. Spray it on them and wash them off and it will pass.

[CGF]

Its been stated by management at Eldora . That as much as 10g has been spent on tire testing for the world ... I may be off on the grand total but it was a bunch ..for some reason Im thinking it was 10 g

[dirtdobber45]

Im with ya on that crewchief99 those tires would have to soak rather than wipe on wipe off with that 'cleaner' idea. I hate that it happened..love seeing the lil guy beat the pants off the big boys

[MI Dirt Fan]

Im with ya on that crewchief99 those tires would have to soak rather than wipe on wipe off with that 'cleaner' idea. I hate that it happened..love seeing the lil guy beat the pants off the big boys
Not much of a lil guy if you've ever seen the setup they have. Nice hauler couple cars etc.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Not much of a lil guy if you've ever seen the setup they have. Nice hauler couple cars etc.


Yes they have nice equiptment and all.

[dirtdobber45]

The 'lil guy' was pertaining that he was a local or non-touring if we're being picky lol

[ksmitty79]

shame shame shame! Willie has won a lot of races around this area over the years. Makes you kind of wonder if he was doing this prior to driving for Mason Price.. He was dominate in the 32

[zeroracing]

I hate to rain on parades of people but treatment of tires is rampant at many levels. Many many many guys you would never think do. It is one of those things that most the time goes unchecked or gets past, sponsors pressure drivers for wins, so drivers make the jump to do it in order to stay current.

Sad that it comes to it but a fact of our sport at almost any level, mods or late models.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

shame shame shame! Willie has won a lot of races around this area over the years. Makes you kind of wonder if he was doing this prior to driving for Mason Price.. He was dominate in the 32


Smitty I was wondering the same thing. Hes tough at fayettville and is this why?

[a25rjr]

Shoot even Ray's series checks tires you know he caught Hippie

LOL Mr. B.....I think its funny no 4m experts have googled Mr. Mallory. He made a nice living in the "chemical" business before joining Bloomer, and Stick was his protégé!

[gumby_32d]

I don't know if the guy is juicing his tires or not, but if it is the" simple green " excuse, why can't a guy use a little high pressure water and a blow gun to clean them up after grinding and siping. No off the wall chemicals there. One more question, why is it some guys shrink wrap their tires? They are going to get dirt and debris on them before they hit the track with them?

[zeroracing]

Wrap to keep the oils from the factory in them longer and keep that surface from vulcanizing more. That's what happens as they age/glaze etc. so you wrap them to cut down on the time they are exposed to the air and slowly vulcanizing.

High pressure water does work but will shove pebbles down into sipes at times, not end of the world. Tire guys make the claim that high pressure water embeds more small particles into the face of the tire.

[gumby_32d]

Thank you zero racing. I learn something new every day.

[zeroracing]

If it makes a difference or we actually embed dust into the tire is another question but wrapping makes us feel better :).

[Barbecueboy]

I don't think Mark Richards gets that perk either. Nobody does. Not Bloomquist, not Owens, not Davenport, not Richards, nobody. Its not some conspiracy to take down "the little guy". As Christman said -- it is bad for the sport for this type of stuff to happen, but even worse to let it go. I'm glad it was caught, it shows everyone from Davenport/Bloomquist/Richards all the way down the line to the local guy who runs a single race all year.. don't try to cheat.

Thanks,
Jeff.
Not talking about this specific race only Jeff...........don't read more into it than what's there.

To believe that the most loyal supporter of woo since its inception doesn't get a few preferential looks and nods here and there is absolutely ridiculous...........

And to be honest ,if I were he ...........I would expect a couple extra myself.

No different than Clemmens getting a questionable strike call to go his way, Richards is a legend in the sport and most times if everything else is even , he will get the nod.

Has absolutely zero with the milliken woo scenario........hate to see it for the local guys and am hoping if turns out more like the Autry /Carolina crown deal and the lab turns out to be incorrect.

[Barbecueboy]

If it makes a difference or we actually embed dust into the tire is another question but wrapping makes us feel better :).

And it's hard to beat confidence...........if you guys are confident it helps to wrap them then it probably is......even if it may not be.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Pry had take offs from RichardsI can getcha some KY for the chapped a$$. They can afford a Longhorn, they can afford tires. Is anyone legal, probably not, but don't cheat tires. You know dam well they check them.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

I can getcha some KY for the chapped a$$. They can afford a Longhorn, they can afford tires. Is anyone legal, probably not, but don't cheat tires. You know dam well they check them.

There ya have it cnb.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Its not cheating unless you get caught???

[Barbecueboy]

shame shame shame! Willie has won a lot of races around this area over the years. Makes you kind of wonder if he was doing this prior to driving for Mason Price.. He was dominate in the 32

The 32 guys put out a nice piece........there is a youngster winning in it now.

I'm just struggling more with why even fool with it........guy has a billion laps around Fayetteville, deluxe equipment under him now, is a shoe anyway and has the whole Cinderella story potential.

I just can't make myself admit that they purposely cheated on this deal.........makes absolutely zero sense.

Everybody in the place ( except for the woo regulars) knew he had a shot to win or do well that night..........it's just a tough pill to swallow.

[a25rjr]

He aint the first Slick Willie to get caught........CHEATIN! :)

[old fan]

lmao maybe willie need to run for office lol

[tsand]

The 32 guys put out a nice piece........there is a youngster winning in it now.

I'm just struggling more with why even fool with it........guy has a billion laps around Fayetteville, deluxe equipment under him now, is a shoe anyway and has the whole Cinderella story potential.

I just can't make myself admit that they purposely cheated on this deal.........makes absolutely zero sense.

Everybody in the place ( except for the woo regulars) knew he had a shot to win or do well that night..........it's just a tough pill to swallow. doesn't say if he was caught for the race or time trials .I know woo also take a sample of the fastest car. How Fayetteville gets hard and locked down for the main I don't see the advantage of soaking for the race but time trials is another ball game.

[toyracer]

Probably didn't soak to soften but to condition for the hard surface & wear.

If not mistaken I think his fastest lap of the main was 1 of the last couple of the race. Not something you see on an abrasive surface after 50 laps.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Probably didn't soak to soften but to condition for the hard surface & wear.

If not mistaken I think his fastest lap of the main was 1 of the last couple of the race. Not something you see on an abrasive surface after 50 laps.
Actually, that was the case for everyone. Probably took rubber.

[Aces&Eights]

Spraying "Simple Green" on them to clean them won't get you. What gets you is if you spray it on them and leave it a day or 2. Spray it on them and wash them off and it will pass.

The dudes at the lab say using any of the "Simple Green" type cleaners is a risk. As to how much or how long it takes to cause illegality is debatable. Unless you've done an hourly test in a lab to see how long it takes to become illegal this is all conjecture. I'm opposed to tire treating, but I'll concede innocent people can get caught in the trap. Did Milliken intentionally dope his tires, maybe. The press release didn't read like it was a case of gross treatment but more of a borderline situation. Whats done is done, no going back, I just think it doesnt make sense to attempt it with the big guys and everyone knows they test...

Several years back we use to soak our tires down in Simple Green when we washed the car. Not for softening purposes but I'd wager they were soaked with it for at least an hour before rinsing. Pull wheels and tires and spray with SG, let them sit while we'd clean the rest of car/trailer. Then rinse everything...


I don't know if the guy is juicing his tires or not, but if it is the" simple green " excuse, why can't a guy use a little high pressure water and a blow gun to clean them up after grinding and siping. No off the wall chemicals there. One more question, why is it some guys shrink wrap their tires? They are going to get dirt and debris on them before they hit the track with them?

One of two reasons. One is it helps keep rubber from drying out and losing the natural oils in the rubber. The second is treating and trying to keep chemicals on tire surface longer so they don't evaporate as fast. One possibility is smart, the other is cheating.

[Minny Lakes]

A $12,000 fine would make me think twice about tire doping. That's a lot of money.

[cgrace]

thye don't care what it is. Tire could have rolled through somehting in pits. doesnt mean he did it on purpose

[Josh Bayko]

Tire could have rolled through somehting in pits.

That excuse is even lamer than claiming all you did was was wash them and wrap them.

[cgrace]

all i'm sayin is he maybe didnt do anything to it

[zach51]

He must have just happened to park in the pit area where somebody the week before wasn’t happy with their tire dope so they dumped it out. Give me a break. Apparently none of the other guys (if they do indeed tech the top 3) ran through the mystery sauce. He’s a cheater. Period.

[a25rjr]

I dunno Zach.....he's got that politicians answer....DENY,DENY,DENY!

So it MUST have been something in the pits or on the track! (or in the rotisserie) lol

[MI Dirt Fan]

thye don't care what it is. Tire could have rolled through somehting in pits. doesnt mean he did it on purpose

This might be the funniest thing ever posted on here EVER.

Yep I bet there just happened to be a puddle of it somewhere in the pit area and he just happen to drive through and win the race.

[Highside Hustler25]

Kind of funny how after this kid won, lots of folks that had seen him race, were not surprised at all that he won. He's fast at that track, He's in really good equipment, heck of a wheelman!

And now, after a lab test says his tires didn't meet the benchmark, He had to have cheated. Hmmm:confused:

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Kind of funny how after this kid won, lots of folks that had seen him race, were not surprised at all that he won. He's fast at that track, He's in really good equipment, heck of a wheelman!

And now, after a lab test says his tires didn't meet the benchmark, He had to have cheated. Hmmm:confused:

Might b why he runs good there.

[ksmitty79]

The 32 guys put out a nice piece........there is a youngster winning in it now.

I'm just struggling more with why even fool with it........guy has a billion laps around Fayetteville, deluxe equipment under him now, is a shoe anyway and has the whole Cinderella story potential.

I just can't make myself admit that they purposely cheated on this deal.........makes absolutely zero sense.

Everybody in the place ( except for the woo regulars) knew he had a shot to win or do well that night..........it's just a tough pill to swallow.

Dalton Wilson is driving the wheels off of the 32. The kid has talent for sure!

I am having a hard time believing he cheated up tires! Out of all nights the WoO night? Im thinking they might have put on the wrong tires. Maybe some tires they run @ clr or clarys!

Never really been a Willie fan but, that night I was pulling for him. David vs. Goliath

[MI Dirt Fan]

Either way regardless. I'm pretty sure they dont allow tire soaking anywhere.

[WisWildManFan]

WoO doesn't like outsiders winning.

[blncfn57]

The dudes at the lab say using any of the "Simple Green" type cleaners is a risk. As to how much or how long it takes to cause illegality is debatable. Unless you've done an hourly test in a lab to see how long it takes to become illegal this is all conjecture. I'm opposed to tire treating, but I'll concede innocent people can get caught in the trap. Did Milliken intentionally dope his tires, maybe. The press release didn't read like it was a case of gross treatment but more of a borderline situation. Whats done is done, no going back, I just think it doesnt make sense to attempt it with the big guys and everyone knows they test...

Several years back we use to soak our tires down in Simple Green when we washed the car. Not for softening purposes but I'd wager they were soaked with it for at least an hour before rinsing. Pull wheels and tires and spray with SG, let them sit while we'd clean the rest of car/trailer. Then rinse everything...



One of two reasons. One is it helps keep rubber from drying out and losing the natural oils in the rubber. The second is treating and trying to keep chemicals on tire surface longer so they don't evaporate as fast. One possibility is smart, the other is cheating.


Just so I understand..... They wrap tires to keep them from drying out and losing the natural oils, but they wash them with simple green which is a degreaser? Seems rather odd.

[a25rjr]

Just so I understand..... They wrap tires to keep them from drying out and losing the natural oils, but they wash them with simple green which is a degreaser? Seems rather odd.

Yep, we all did, until we realized what were doing. Most don't now, but Im sure some still do.

[Flathead]

Four pages on this topic and nobody has brought up the fact that these series don't never seem to throw out none of their regular competitors. This guy races with the WoO once a year gets thrown out. Two years ago Robert Baker was thrown out at wheatland after finishing second behind Bloomquist, Hunter Rasdon was thrown out of a Mississippi states race earlier and he doesn't run that series but a couple times a year. There's a few more but does anyone else see a pattern here.......

[a25rjr]

Four pages on this topic and nobody has brought up the fact that these series don't never seem to throw out none of their regular competitors. This guy races with the WoO once a year gets thrown out. Two years ago Robert Baker was thrown out at wheatland after finishing second behind Bloomquist, Hunter Rasdon was thrown out of a Mississippi states race earlier and he doesn't run that series but a couple times a year. There's a few more but does anyone else see a pattern here.......

Yeah.....they're buying their prep from the wrong person! lol

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Four pages on this topic and nobody has brought up the fact that these series don't never seem to throw out none of their regular competitors. This guy races with the WoO once a year gets thrown out. Two years ago Robert Baker was thrown out at wheatland after finishing second behind Bloomquist, Hunter Rasdon was thrown out of a Mississippi states race earlier and he doesn't run that series but a couple times a year. There's a few more but does anyone else see a pattern here.......


Chris ferguson won both woo races last yr

[Flathead]

Sliding Sideways, I wasn't saying every guy that wins a race that isn't a regular on a series was guilty. I was just saying it looks kinda fishy to me. This sport needs more local and regional racers winning and having good runs against that level of competition.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Sliding Sideways, I wasn't saying every guy that wins a race that isn't a regular on a series was guilty. I was just saying it looks kinda fishy to me. This sport needs more local and regional racers winning and having good runs against that level of competition.

Its all good I agree its nice to see locals win when the big dogs are in town.thats what I meant when i stated fergy did nothing against your post

[Highside Hustler25]

Four pages on this topic and nobody has brought up the fact that these series don't never seem to throw out none of their regular competitors. This guy races with the WoO once a year gets thrown out. Two years ago Robert Baker was thrown out at wheatland after finishing second behind Bloomquist, Hunter Rasdon was thrown out of a Mississippi states race earlier and he doesn't run that series but a couple times a year. There's a few more but does anyone else see a pattern here.......

Oh, they're s a pattern alright:rolleyes:

[MI Dirt Fan]

Curtis Roberts won here in MI cleanly against WoO at I96 a couple yrs ago. He doesnt even race much at I96. Although that car he was in could probly run top 5 if not Top 3 weekly in WoO or LOLMS. Its owned by Finleys out of Lansing. They have deep pockets. Mostly run asphalt LM (Which I think they moved the operations to NC). The dirt car is hardly ever raced ( may not even own it anymore because its hardly ever seen at a track). Dona Marcoullier drove to a track championship at Oakshade 3-4 yrs ago. Dona had a 2013 very exact copy of the Rocket house car for sale end of last year. Not sure if it sold or not.

[Aces&Eights]

Just so I understand..... They wrap tires to keep them from drying out and losing the natural oils, but they wash them with simple green which is a degreaser? Seems rather odd.

Yes and no. There are multiple schools of thought on tires, I personally wouldn't use simple green or anything like it on "my own" tires, because it does pull the natural oils out of the tire, no doubt about it. If you've ever gotten it on your skin you know this. The tires I mentioned washing weren't mine, I was just following orders.

The initial problem with "new" tires is the release agent used at the factory to keep the tire from sticking to the mold. Some racers use the SG type cleaners in an effort to remove this release agent. Now if its a used tire that still has tread left, some use the SG to clean the dirt off the surface of the tire after racing. Leaving the dirt/clay on the surface of the tire would have the same effect as a mud mask on a woman's face, it draws the oils out. Like I stated earlier I wouldn't use SG on any of "my own" tires, ever. To me SG cleaners are bad news all the way around for tire performance, but I've known racers who did this.

Second school of thought, "The Wrappers". What happens in this situation is you grind or buff the surface of the tire to remove the release agent and open up the surface of the tire for maximum performance. Once the tires are sufficiently buffed/ground you wrap them up till race time so they are at their dead level best just before you hit the track. This way to me is the best "Legal" way to maximize your tires potential, but its a lot of work and why some still try to use SG cleaners instead.

Third school of thought, "The Cheaters" group, they take buffing/grinding/wrapping a step further and just before they wrap the tires they run them in a rotisserie to cheat up the tires with a chemical treatment. This can be done to achieve different results, either softening or strengthening the rubber. Once complete the wrapping keeps the treatment on the surface longer for enhanced results.

Now understand I'm not saying I think Milliken didn't cheat, he very well could have and it may be exactly why he was such a standout for so long, I dunno. I'm just saying there is room for the possibility. Now if they want to release the lab results and they demonstrate that it was gross treatment of the tires, then I say nail him to the wall.

[blncfn57]

Yes and no. There are multiple schools of thought on tires, I personally wouldn't use simple green or anything like it on "my own" tires, because it does pull the natural oils out of the tire, no doubt about it. If you've ever gotten it on your skin you know this. The tires I mentioned washing weren't mine, I was just following orders.

The initial problem with "new" tires is the release agent used at the factory to keep the tire from sticking to the mold. Some racers use the SG type cleaners in an effort to remove this release agent. Now if its a used tire that still has tread left, some use the SG to clean the dirt off the surface of the tire after racing. Leaving the dirt/clay on the surface of the tire would have the same effect as a mud mask on a woman's face, it draws the oils out. Like I stated earlier I wouldn't use SG on any of "my own" tires, ever. To me SG cleaners are bad news all the way around for tire performance, but I've known racers who did this.

Second school of thought, "The Wrappers". What happens in this situation is you grind or buff the surface of the tire to remove the release agent and open up the surface of the tire for maximum performance. Once the tires are sufficiently buffed/ground you wrap them up till race time so they are at their dead level best just before you hit the track. This way to me is the best "Legal" way to maximize your tires potential, but its a lot of work and why some still try to use SG cleaners instead.

Third school of thought, "The Cheaters" group, they take buffing/grinding/wrapping a step further and just before they wrap the tires they run them in a rotisserie to cheat up the tires with a chemical treatment. This can be done to achieve different results, either softening or strengthening the rubber. Once complete the wrapping keeps the treatment on the surface longer for enhanced results.

Now understand I'm not saying I think Milliken didn't cheat, he very well could have and it may be exactly why he was such a standout for so long, I dunno. I'm just saying there is room for the possibility. Now if they want to release the lab results and they demonstrate that it was gross treatment of the tires, then I say nail him to the wall.

I was kinda being a smart aleck. I had a guy I raced against use simple green and he could never understand why he was fastest when he had new, untouched tires on his car and then they slowly went away over the next few races.
I'm fairly certain that most the top guys have tires treated, it's just that they have connections that know how to do it without being caught. The "little guy" generally does not have the connections and uses chemicals that work, but get them caught.

[dirtdobber45]

How do labs test these samples? Do they use a spectrometer? Jus curious to see how and what they use to test

[blncfn57]

Four pages on this topic and nobody has brought up the fact that these series don't never seem to throw out none of their regular competitors. This guy races with the WoO once a year gets thrown out. Two years ago Robert Baker was thrown out at wheatland after finishing second behind Bloomquist, Hunter Rasdon was thrown out of a Mississippi states race earlier and he doesn't run that series but a couple times a year. There's a few more but does anyone else see a pattern here.......

as I stated in another reply, I'm fairly certain that most the top guys have treated tires, it's just that they have connections that know how to do it without being caught. The "little guy" generally does not have the connections and uses chemicals that work, but get them caught.

[Aces&Eights]

as I stated in another reply, I'm fairly certain that most the top guys have treated tires, it's just that they have connections that know how to do it without being caught. The "little guy" generally does not have the connections and uses chemicals that work, but get them caught.

I dunno if I agree with this theory, its kinda like the people who can't understand why the local guy gets beat by the traveler, 95% of the time. Could it be that since the traveling guys face, "the best of the best" every night and run upwards of 100+ times a season and are hip to the latest advances that maybe experience counts more than "little guy" thinks? Iron sharpens Iron, which means if you want to run like the best, you better be rubbing up against the best, every night.

Now could a series look the other way sometimes when one of the devoted followers gets outside the lines sometimes? Sure, its possible. I just think people assume, "home field advantage" is more valuable than it is. The travelers have seen every track configuration and surface this country has to offer, multiple times. They work closely with the tire company learning what works and what doesn't, getting that much better every night. Mean while little guy keeps buzzing around the same one or two tracks every week, hoping what he is doing will be enough. Only a regional traveler, that's really on top of his game stands a chance against the national tour guys. There are lots of talented people racing, some are better funded than others, but nothing replaces experience. It takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, how many hours does "Little Guy" have in comparison to the, "Traveler"?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to anger you and I'll admit that occasionally someone will surprise the tour guys and everything will happen the way it needs to for him to find victory lane. Its kinda insulting to all those guys doing what they do, to not recognize the fact that they are better in more ways than just driving ability.

"Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance." - David Mamet
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/davidmamet478663.html

[a25rjr]

9 out of 10 times, the local drivers don't race on the same tires the natl drivers do. Big difference between the two. It would surprise us all how many natl drivers are treating their tires. Good example, look at the background of Bloomers "crew chief". Not saying he's doing it, but it def wouldn't surprise me.

[Aces&Eights]

9 out of 10 times, the local drivers don't race on the same tires the natl drivers do. Big difference between the two. It would surprise us all how many natl drivers are treating their tires. Good example, look at the background of Bloomers "crew chief". Not saying he's doing it, but it def wouldn't surprise me.

Who is his crew chief? From appearances they seem to be a collection of ruffians he picked up at a dive bar on the way to the track.

[a25rjr]

Who is his crew chief? From appearances they seem to be a collection of ruffians he picked up at a dive bar on the way to the track.

Cody, I think....that's why I put quotations around it. His prep won a ton of big go kart races! Stick and I worked on the same team for a little while. He was a heckuva tire guy!

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Who is his crew chief? From appearances they seem to be a collection of ruffians he picked up at a dive bar on the way to the track.

Lmfao good answer Ace. Now thats funny right there.

Do you know if he has any crew from waffle house?

[zyoung25]

Cody Mallory is his name. I remember it being said over the loud speaker at Eldora last year. You Google his name, you'll find out he wasn't very well liked in the Karting world. Seems he was known to be a dirty driver.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Cody Mallory is his name. I remember it being said over the loud speaker at Eldora last year. You Google his name, you'll find out he wasn't very well liked in the Karting world. Seems he was known to be a dirty driver.

I guess he kinda fits in then!

[Highside Hustler25]

Who is his crew chief? From appearances they seem to be a collection of ruffians he picked up at a dive bar on the way to the track.

That's a pretty good assessment there. Remember, they are only temporary. Bloomer goes through crew guys like a newborn goes through Pampers'

[onlyfacts]

I dunno if I agree with this theory, its kinda like the people who can't understand why the local guy gets beat by the traveler, 95% of the time. Could it be that since the traveling guys face, "the best of the best" every night and run upwards of 100+ times a season and are hip to the latest advances that maybe experience counts more than "little guy" thinks? Iron sharpens Iron, which means if you want to run like the best, you better be rubbing up against the best, every night.Now could a series look the other way sometimes when one of the devoted followers gets outside the lines sometimes? Sure, its possible. I just think people assume, "home field advantage" is more valuable than it is. The travelers have seen every track configuration and surface this country has to offer, multiple times. They work closely with the tire company learning what works and what doesn't, getting that much better every night. Mean while little guy keeps buzzing around the same one or two tracks every week, hoping what he is doing will be enough. Only a regional traveler, that's really on top of his game stands a chance against the national tour guys. There are lots of talented people racing, some are better funded than others, but nothing replaces experience. It takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, how many hours does "Little Guy" have in comparison to the, "Traveler"?Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to anger you and I'll admit that occasionally someone will surprise the tour guys and everything will happen the way it needs to for him to find victory lane. Its kinda insulting to all those guys doing what they do, to not recognize the fact that they are better in more ways than just driving ability. "Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance." - David MametRead more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/davidmamet478663.htmlGreat Post. Might be the best theory ever posted of national guys vs locals.

[Barbecueboy]

Dalton Wilson is driving the wheels off of the 32. The kid has talent for sure!

I am having a hard time believing he cheated up tires! Out of all nights the WoO night? Im thinking they might have put on the wrong tires. Maybe some tires they run @ clr or clarys!

Never really been a Willie fan but, that night I was pulling for him. David vs. Goliath
We think a lot alike .........

[Barbecueboy]

Who is his crew chief? From appearances they seem to be a collection of ruffians he picked up at a dive bar on the way to the track.

Thanks.........coffee now dripping from nose!!!

[blncfn57]

I dunno if I agree with this theory, its kinda like the people who can't understand why the local guy gets beat by the traveler, 95% of the time. Could it be that since the traveling guys face, "the best of the best" every night and run upwards of 100+ times a season and are hip to the latest advances that maybe experience counts more than "little guy" thinks? Iron sharpens Iron, which means if you want to run like the best, you better be rubbing up against the best, every night.

Now could a series look the other way sometimes when one of the devoted followers gets outside the lines sometimes? Sure, its possible. I just think people assume, "home field advantage" is more valuable than it is. The travelers have seen every track configuration and surface this country has to offer, multiple times. They work closely with the tire company learning what works and what doesn't, getting that much better every night. Mean while little guy keeps buzzing around the same one or two tracks every week, hoping what he is doing will be enough. Only a regional traveler, that's really on top of his game stands a chance against the national tour guys. There are lots of talented people racing, some are better funded than others, but nothing replaces experience. It takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, how many hours does "Little Guy" have in comparison to the, "Traveler"?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to anger you and I'll admit that occasionally someone will surprise the tour guys and everything will happen the way it needs to for him to find victory lane. Its kinda insulting to all those guys doing what they do, to not recognize the fact that they are better in more ways than just driving ability.

"Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance." - David Mamet
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/davidmamet478663.html


I understand what you are saying, the touring guys are generally just better. Experience is a huge advantage! My point was strictly about tires and the fact that the non touring regulars are the only ones that seem to get caught.

[Aces&Eights]

I understand what you are saying, the touring guys are generally just better. Experience is a huge advantage! My point was strictly about tires and the fact that the non touring regulars are the only ones that seem to get caught.
Maybe Non-Tour drivers feel they need an extra edge to hang with the big guns and reach for the special sauce. Maybe cheating on tires isn't as rampant on the tour as some would lead you to believe... Just maybe the game isn't as rigged as some thought. Maybe they are just that good.

We had a guy that ran super late model at my track growing up, who was an older gentleman. Very low budget, car was several years old, never contended for the win, was usually the first to get the move over flag. Well the promoter ponied up the dough to have, "Sterling Marlin" come and race with the track regulars in the Super division. Now this was probably 87' or 88' so Sterling was in his prime, but he didn't have a car of his own to run. So the older gentleman I mentioned gladly offered to let Sterling drive his car in the feature. No special prep, no super secret setup before hand, he just showed up and drove this guys car. It was like night and day, I've never seen that car run that fast, I didn't think it could.

Sterling had never raced at this track before and he qualified in the top ten. Then he had them make some changes he wanted to the car and went out to run the feature. Within 5 laps he was challenging for 3rd when the motor scattered at the end of the back strait. Wow! I remember everyone looking around in disbelief that just switching the driver had made that car so much faster. Being a stand up guy, Sterling paid to have his engine rebuilt. The reason some are regularly faster than others, isn't always the result of cheating.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Thanks.........coffee now dripping from nose!!!

Well at least whats coming outa ur nose is legal!

[a25rjr]

Maybe Non-Tour drivers feel they need an extra edge to hang with the big guns and reach for the special sauce. Maybe cheating on tires isn't as rampant on the tour as some would lead you to believe... Just maybe the game isn't as rigged as some thought. Maybe they are just that good.

We had a guy that ran super late model at my track growing up, who was an older gentleman. Very low budget, car was several years old, never contended for the win, was usually the first to get the move over flag. Well the promoter ponied up the dough to have, "Sterling Marlin" come and race with the track regulars in the Super division. Now this was probably 87' or 88' so Sterling was in his prime, but he didn't have a car of his own to run. So the older gentleman I mentioned gladly offered to let Sterling drive his car in the feature. No special prep, no super secret setup before hand, he just showed up and drove this guys car. It was like night and day, I've never seen that car run that fast, I didn't think it could.

Sterling had never raced at this track before and he qualified in the top ten. Then he had them make some changes he wanted to the car and went out to run the feature. Within 5 laps he was challenging for 3rd when the motor scattered at the end of the back strait. Wow! I remember everyone looking around in disbelief that just switching the driver had made that car so much faster. Being a stand up guy, Sterling paid to have his engine rebuilt. The reason some are regularly faster than others, isn't always the result of cheating.

You talking about GIS, when Sterling and Mikey hopped in late models!

[Aces&Eights]

You talking about GIS, when Sterling and Mikey hopped in late models!

No. This was Seven Flags speedway, west of Atlanta.

[blncfn57]

Maybe Non-Tour drivers feel they need an extra edge to hang with the big guns and reach for the special sauce. Maybe cheating on tires isn't as rampant on the tour as some would lead you to believe... Just maybe the game isn't as rigged as some thought. Maybe they are just that good.

We had a guy that ran super late model at my track growing up, who was an older gentleman. Very low budget, car was several years old, never contended for the win, was usually the first to get the move over flag. Well the promoter ponied up the dough to have, "Sterling Marlin" come and race with the track regulars in the Super division. Now this was probably 87' or 88' so Sterling was in his prime, but he didn't have a car of his own to run. So the older gentleman I mentioned gladly offered to let Sterling drive his car in the feature. No special prep, no super secret setup before hand, he just showed up and drove this guys car. It was like night and day, I've never seen that car run that fast, I didn't think it could.

Sterling had never raced at this track before and he qualified in the top ten. Then he had them make some changes he wanted to the car and went out to run the feature. Within 5 laps he was challenging for 3rd when the motor scattered at the end of the back strait. Wow! I remember everyone looking around in disbelief that just switching the driver had made that car so much faster. Being a stand up guy, Sterling paid to have his engine rebuilt. The reason some are regularly faster than others, isn't always the result of cheating.

Haven't Owens, Bloomquist and a few other big names been caught with juiced up tires in the past? Yes, they are exceptional drivers, but for some reason they felt they needed to do it....... by me saying that, it does not mean I think they cheat every night they race.

[Barbecueboy]

Think Milliken won this weekend fwiw.........

[powerslide]

If you have ever felt a tire washed with simple green vs not washed with it you will understand. Spray it on just like a soap let it sit a few minutes then power wash it off. It helps open the pores and bring oils to the surface. Those pro's don't run tires more than once or twice. They are looking for sheer speed and don't care if it lasts. If he has a well funded team (which it looks he does) they may very well be treating tires. Next time out, go by bloomers pit and pick up some rubber send it in see if it matches any benchmarks.

[blncfn57]

If you have ever felt a tire washed with simple green vs not washed with it you will understand. Spray it on just like a soap let it sit a few minutes then power wash it off. It helps open the pores and bring oils to the surface. Those pro's don't run tires more than once or twice. They are looking for sheer speed and don't care if it lasts. If he has a well funded team (which it looks he does) they may very well be treating tires. Next time out, go by bloomers pit and pick up some rubber send it in see if it matches any benchmarks.

yes I have felt tires washed with simple green. They feel the same as washing them with a good hot water pressure washer or dawn dish soap TBH. I'm not saying they perform any better or worse, just saying they feel the same.
We've heard this simple green excuse tons of times when people get caught with tires that don't meet benchmarks. If it really does make your tire fail the lab tests and everyone knows this.... then why would anyone use it? Because it's just that, an excuse.

Years ago at our local track, the guy winning most of the races swore he was washing his tires in gasoline to get the oil off of them, today everyone wants to keep it in.

[Aces&Eights]

Haven't Owens, Bloomquist and a few other big names been caught with juiced up tires in the past? Yes, they are exceptional drivers, but for some reason they felt they needed to do it....... by me saying that, it does not mean I think they cheat every night they race.

Sure, several years ago it was much more prevalent, most teams were doing something with softeners and strengtheners, before the testing ramped up. Nowadays its much harder to sneak that by and since the tire companies are submitting "benchmark" samples for comparison, so much more so. The days of going to Home depot and buying some xylene and mixing it with creosote and diesel are over. Open tire rules are always better, much less incentive to try to steal a victory, just put on the right tire. This horse is dead.

[Aces&Eights]

Milliken won @ Fayetteville in the Clash race. If he passes tech I guess he's redeemed some what from the ones who speculated he'd always cheated.

[Barbecueboy]

Pretty sure He passed tire tests in a couple touring races that came pre woo race too........when you look at his record the last 3 or 4 months woo seems to be the only tire test they can't pass.

Odd.

[W2Racing09]

Pretty sure He passed tire tests in a couple touring races that came pre woo race too........when you look at his record the last 3 or 4 months woo seems to be the only tire test they can't pass.

Odd.

I wouldn't expect him to be treating his tires again after failing at the WoO race. That would just be stupid, knowing full well they will be checking tires again and probably putting some extra attention toward his considering that he was recently caught.

[King1]

The fee you pay to be a WRG member also secretly buys immunity from tire testing. The wrap keeps the smell down when the put the stuff on the outside.

[zach51]

I've known a couple of cats to soak them from the inside too, then bake them in a powdercoat oven for a little bit and let the juice spread from the inside out. Not sure if it helps or not, but I've seen it.

[Barbecueboy]

I wouldn't expect him to be treating his tires again after failing at the WoO race. That would just be stupid, knowing full well they will be checking tires again and probably putting some extra attention toward his considering that he was recently caught.

He also passed a few touring tire tests prior to the woo result...........they were clean too.

As I said, woo is the only test they can't pass apparently.

[Aces&Eights]

I've known a couple of cats to soak them from the inside too, then bake them in a powdercoat oven for a little bit and let the juice spread from the inside out. Not sure if it helps or not, but I've seen it.

Help or hurt it shows up in the test.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Pretty sure He passed tire tests in a couple touring races that came pre woo race too........when you look at his record the last 3 or 4 months woo seems to be the only tire test they can't pass.

Odd.


You might b on to somthing there BBQ. Its funny how all that works

[W2Racing09]

He also passed a few touring tire tests prior to the woo result...........they were clean too.

As I said, woo is the only test they can't pass apparently.

I have not seen him finish top 3 in the LOLMDS or WoO in the past, I thought they only test the top 3 or 5?

I have a lot more respect for you than to think you will believe that a business (that wouldn't survive without the support of local drivers) would go out of their way to fabricate a fake lab result which ends in the best story of their season so far turning into one of the most negative. This does not help the WoO in any way, in fact all it has effectively done is create topics such as this. The lab wouldn't risk their reputation on going along with a lie either.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have not seen him finish top 3 in the LOLMDS or WoO in the past, I thought they only test the top 3 or 5?

I have a lot more respect for you than to think you will believe that a business (that wouldn't survive without the support of local drivers) would go out of their way to fabricate a fake lab result which ends in the best story of their season so far turning into one of the most negative. This does not help the WoO in any way, in fact all it has effectively done is create topics such as this. The lab wouldn't risk their reputation on going along with a lie either.

As a person who has run a laboratory, certainly you would never falsify a report. But, pass/fail criteria is determined by the customer if no testing specification exists.

[W2Racing09]

As a person who has run a laboratory, certainly you would never falsify a report. But, pass/fail criteria is determined by the customer if no testing specification exists.

I don't think there is any type of conspiracy here. They submitted the benchmarks provided to them by Hoosier (or whichever tire manufacturer is involved) of that I am sure. I don't understand what is so difficult to believe about it. He is not the first to treat tires, and certainly won't be the last. If he says he didn't then the only other explanation is that his tires came into contact with a chemical that had an effect on them.

Last season countless locals/regional drivers won WoO races and all of them made it through tech. Ogle Jr. at Tazwell, hell Ferguson won both of the WoO races on the NC swing last season and passed both times. If they wanted to falsify lab results and DQ someone for no reason they would have done so when JD (A Lucas driver) was making all the WoO drivers look like fools last season. At least then they would have had a motive..

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

I have not seen him finish top 3 in the LOLMDS or WoO in the past, I thought they only test the top 3 or 5?

I have a lot more respect for you than to think you will believe that a business (that wouldn't survive without the support of local drivers) would go out of their way to fabricate a fake lab result which ends in the best story of their season so far turning into one of the most negative. This does not help the WoO in any way, in fact all it has effectively done is create topics such as this. The lab wouldn't risk their reputation on going along with a lie either.

I've never once said or implied that it's some sort of mega conspiracy theory......just saying he passed a clash and a fuel tire test prior to the woo deal, and has subsequently passed the testing done for the big limited race he won and now apparently another touring series big win test that he will pass.

Just seems odd that he would fail the woo test when he came back clean before in some pretty big races and now after in some pretty big races.....

All I'm saying is, people make mistakes, that lab has made mistakes and the milliken team has absolutely no way to appeal it..............oh, and to my knowledge They have passed every single tire sample testing procedure except for the woo race fwiw......limited, 525 and super.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't think there is any type of conspiracy here. They submitted the benchmarks provided to them by Hoosier (or whichever tire manufacturer is involved) of that I am sure. I don't understand what is so difficult to believe about it. He is not the first to treat tires, and certainly won't be the last. If he says he didn't then the only other explanation is that his tires came into contact with a chemical that had an effect on them.

Last season countless locals/regional drivers won WoO races and all of them made it through tech. Ogle Jr. at Tazwell, hell Ferguson won both of the WoO races on the NC swing last season and passed both times. If they wanted to falsify lab results and DQ someone for no reason they would have done so when JD (A Lucas driver) was making all the WoO drivers look like fools last season. At least then they would have had a motive..

Thanks,
Jeff.
I didn't say there was a conspiracy. I am saying that sometimes, IMO, the wrong conclusion is drawn from data. That is all. I have no idea what happened here.

[W2Racing09]

I didn't say there was a conspiracy. I am saying that sometimes, IMO, the wrong conclusion is drawn from data. That is all. I have no idea what happened here.

My apologies, I have a problem replying with quotes sometimes. My response was not directed at you specifically.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

I've never once said or implied that it's some sort of mega conspiracy theory......just saying he passed a clash and a fuel tire test prior to the woo deal, and has subsequently passed the testing done for the big limited race he won and now apparently another touring series big win test that he will pass.

Just seems odd that he would fail the woo test when he came back clean before in some pretty big races and now after in some pretty big races.....

All I'm saying is, people make mistakes, that lab has made mistakes and the milliken team has absolutely no way to appeal it..............oh, and to my knowledge They have passed every single tire sample testing procedure except for the woo race fwiw......limited, 525 and super.

That certainly is true, I know Jimmy Owens got caught by the NDRL and has since (and previously) passed tech all over the place with LOLMDS, WoO and everything else. That does not mean for sure that he A) Didn't treat tires before that incident, and it does not mean B) He does not treat them now. It just means on that night he was running tires that tested positive for tire treatment. The tires are essentially disposable so if he tries it, gets caught he probably won't take the chance again.

As far as the lab making a mistake, I believe the DoD article said they ran the tests several times and each time they came back positive. It is unlikely the lab made the same mistake more than once.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

That certainly is true, I know Jimmy Owens got caught by the NDRL and has since (and previously) passed tech all over the place with LOLMDS, WoO and everything else. That does not mean for sure that he A) Didn't treat tires before that incident, and it does not mean B) He does not treat them now. It just means on that night he was running tires that tested positive for tire treatment. The tires are essentially disposable so if he tries it, gets caught he probably won't take the chance again.

As far as the lab making a mistake, I believe the DoD article said they ran the tests several times and each time they came back positive. It is unlikely the lab made the same mistake more than once.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Its easy to make the same mistake more than once............especially if the data going in is incorrect.
Ask Scott Autry how that lab made the same mistake multiple times ........and then changed their mind.

Why do you suppose they tested the same sample three different times???.....If it's so accurate , why test more than once?

Why? Because maybe a couple of the tests came back inconclusive ???


You have Willie and crew all but hung, when in fact he hasn't even gotten a fair trial......and shame on them for not being a member so it could be appealed.

[W2Racing09]

Its easy to make the same mistake more than once............especially if the data going in is incorrect.
Ask Scott Autry how that lab made the same mistake multiple times ........and then changed their mind.

Why do you suppose they tested the same sample three different times???.....If it's so accurate , why test more than once?

Why? Because maybe a couple of the tests came back inconclusive ???


You have Willie and crew all but hung, when in fact he hasn't even gotten a fair trial......and shame on them for not being a member so it could be appealed.

They probably tested it three times so that they could say they double checked to the countless people who would immediately reply demanding that the results be checked again.

I'm not saying its impossible that they are innocent. What I am saying it is WoO vs Milliken word of mouth basically but WoO also has an independent lab backing up their side. The evidence is highly stacked on one side. Everyone wants to make WRG/WoO out to be the bad guys here but they would have nothing to gain from falsely screwing over Milliken.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[huskerdirt]

Here's how the Autry deal went down.....


https://www.dirtondirt.com/story_5455.html

[Barbecueboy]

They probably tested it three times so that they could say they double checked to the countless people who would immediately reply demanding that the results be checked again.

I'm not saying its impossible that they are innocent. What I am saying it is WoO vs Milliken word of mouth basically but WoO also has an independent lab backing up their side. The evidence is highly stacked on one side. Everyone wants to make WRG/WoO out to be the bad guys here but they would have nothing to gain from falsely screwing over Milliken.

Thanks,
Jeff.

An independent lab that has made mistakes establishing what a benchmark actually was for a tire........that same independent lab?

There has been precedent set , that lab got it wrong before , and admitted it.........but only after appeal........which the milliken team aren't allowed to do because of a technicality.

It's highly doubtful they got it wrong, but certainly not out of the realm or impossible as you have ruled.............the whole tire testing thing is sucky anyway, let em run open tire rules.

[Barbecueboy]

Here's how the Autry deal went down.....


https://www.dirtondirt.com/story_5455.html


Yep........just like that.

Lab had bad info to test against.

That could never happen again.

[Snake X3]

They probably tested it three times so that they could say they double checked to the countless people who would immediately reply demanding that the results be checked again.

I'm not saying its impossible that they are innocent. What I am saying it is WoO vs Milliken word of mouth basically but WoO also has an independent lab backing up their side. The evidence is highly stacked on one side. Everyone wants to make WRG/WoO out to be the bad guys here but they would have nothing to gain from falsely screwing over Milliken.

Thanks,
Jeff.

What does WoO/WRG have to gain? One thing would be a series regular gets the prestige of finally winning a race and also gets the money. Another thing would be the perception that a local guy couldn't whip their best. Sure...Fergy beat the WoO guys in NC last year, but Milliken ain't Fergy, (No offense to Willie) he's a local guy. Outside of NC even people that follow the sport closely didn't know who he was.

Do I think there is some sort of conspiracy? Nope. My point is that some people could think WoO/WRG had something to gain. The bigger question is why people are so suspicious of WoO/WRG? Having a rule that denies non-members the right to appeal only gives conspiracy theorists more fuel to throw on the fire. If there is nothing to hide, why not allow him to appeal? If it's such a feel good story then I'd think they'd want to do everything in their power to give the guy a fair shake. What better way to shut up people that think WoO/WRG plays favorites towards their own than to allow an outside the same privileges as a member? If it's the cost of testing, let Milliken appeal if he is willing pay.

Maybe I'm outside the norm, but if it was me in WoO's shoes I would rather let a guilty party fail to prove their innocence than let my integrity be questioned.

[Barbecueboy]

What does WoO/WRG have to gain? One thing would be a series regular gets the prestige of finally winning a race and also gets the money. Another thing would be the perception that a local guy couldn't whip their best. Sure...Fergy beat the WoO guys in NC last year, but Milliken ain't Fergy, (No offense to Willie) he's a local guy. Outside of NC even people that follow the sport closely didn't know who he was.

Do I think there is some sort of conspiracy? Nope. My point is that some people could think WoO/WRG had something to gain. The bigger question is why people are so suspicious of WoO/WRG? Having a rule that denies non-members the right to appeal only gives conspiracy theorists more fuel to throw on the fire. If there is nothing to hide, why not allow him to appeal? If it's such a feel good story then I'd think they'd want to do everything in their power to give the guy a fair shake. What better way to shut up people that think WoO/WRG plays favorites towards their own than to allow an outside the same privileges as a member? If it's the cost of testing, let Milliken appeal if he is willing pay.

Maybe I'm outside the norm, but if it was me in WoO's shoes I would rather let a guilty party fail to prove their innocence than let my integrity be questioned.

That was pretty well spoken right there........


And fwiw, I appreciate the intent of keeping it all fair for everybody ............just don't think the answer is " independent" lab testing.

Two best or easiest answers I see right now are open tire or series issued rubber..........everything after that is just a big stfu and there will always be questions.

I vote for stfu and do either and concentrate on the rest of the rampant DLM cheating that everybody theorizes about.

[toyracer]

Something I don't think has been mentioned. Are the test conducted for WOO & Clash & Fuel the same test?

I for one don't know. Could WOO be paying for a more extensive test than other smaller series?

Again I don't know but would like to know if that can be answered.

[Snake X3]

That was pretty well spoken right there........


Thanks. :)




Two best or easiest answers I see right now are open tire or series issued rubber..........everything after that is just a big stfu and there will always be questions.

I vote for stfu and do either and concentrate on the rest of the rampant DLM cheating that everybody theorizes about.

I was going to reply to your comment about the open tire rules earlier, but I wore myself out writing that long post. LOL As with almost everything in life, my opinion is the less rules the better. I'm firmly in the "run what ya brung" camp. I don't know how an open tire rule would work, but it sounds good to me. I thought part of the reason for the testing was EPA regulations.

[toyracer]

I have to call BS on the epa thing but I do agree that is the excuse tracks are using.

I think it is the tire companies putting pressure on tracks to tire test or not get kick back from the tire company.

If it were an EPA worry there wouldn't be a Go Kart track open anywhere in the country.

The tire companies know if the local racer can buy a hard tire & treat them they can get a full season out of a couple sets of tires.

Just my opinion

[RCJ]

Do sanctioning bodys send known illegal tires to the lab to be tested,So they will know what chemicals to look for?I would hate to be DQ for baby powder.They should be doing their homework, if common shop supplies are getting guys DQ how about sharing that info.If the guys are cheating tires, own up to it and stop blaming it on simple green.

[Barbecueboy]

Do sanctioning bodys send known illegal tires to the lab to be tested,So they will know what chemicals to look for?I would hate to be DQ for baby powder.They should be doing their homework, if common shop supplies are getting guys DQ how about sharing that info.If the guys are cheating tires, own up to it and stop blaming it on simple green.

Another very fine post......

[W2Racing09]

What does WoO/WRG have to gain? One thing would be a series regular gets the prestige of finally winning a race and also gets the money. Another thing would be the perception that a local guy couldn't whip their best. Sure...Fergy beat the WoO guys in NC last year, but Milliken ain't Fergy, (No offense to Willie) he's a local guy. Outside of NC even people that follow the sport closely didn't know who he was.

Do I think there is some sort of conspiracy? Nope. My point is that some people could think WoO/WRG had something to gain. The bigger question is why people are so suspicious of WoO/WRG? Having a rule that denies non-members the right to appeal only gives conspiracy theorists more fuel to throw on the fire. If there is nothing to hide, why not allow him to appeal? If it's such a feel good story then I'd think they'd want to do everything in their power to give the guy a fair shake. What better way to shut up people that think WoO/WRG plays favorites towards their own than to allow an outside the same privileges as a member? If it's the cost of testing, let Milliken appeal if he is willing pay.

Maybe I'm outside the norm, but if it was me in WoO's shoes I would rather let a guilty party fail to prove their innocence than let my integrity be questioned.

I get the argument about the appeal process for sure. However from a business perspective there is one thing that needs to be considered. The benefits of being a UMP Member need to be worthwhile enough to make people want to register. If you don't receive any benefits beyond what a regular non registered driver gets then you will not register. The biggest way WRG benefits out of this mess is that I'm sure a lot more of these local guys will consider registering to get a right of appeal.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Do sanctioning bodys send known illegal tires to the lab to be tested,So they will know what chemicals to look for?I would hate to be DQ for baby powder.They should be doing their homework, if common shop supplies are getting guys DQ how about sharing that info.If the guys are cheating tires, own up to it and stop blaming it on simple green.

On the flip side, an older tire will not meet the benchmark because the peaks on the mass spectrometer readout will be lower for elements lost during aging. By the book, those tires don't meet benchmark either. Does common sense prevail in that case?

[Snake X3]

I get the argument about the appeal process for sure. However from a business perspective there is one thing that needs to be considered. The benefits of being a UMP Member need to be worthwhile enough to make people want to register. If you don't receive any benefits beyond what a regular non registered driver gets then you will not register. The biggest way WRG benefits out of this mess is that I'm sure a lot more of these local guys will consider registering to get a right of appeal.

Thanks,
Jeff.

I don't know, man. That sounds like negative reinforcement. An appeal shouldn't be a perk. It should be the right of any racer. Of course if thems the rules, the drivers don't have to race with them either.

I'll have to read the dang rules now.

[Barbecueboy]

On the flip side, an older tire will not meet the benchmark because the peaks on the mass spectrometer readout will be lower for elements lost during aging. By the book, those tires don't meet benchmark either. Does common sense prevail in that case?

It did in one instance that's been mentioned in this thread already.........after an appeal.

To make a guy follow the wrg rule book while racing with them but can't take advantage of the same rule book to appeal after the race is done is just crazy.

Now there is a rule that needs to be re written.......

[Snake X3]

To make a guy follow the wrg rule book while racing with them but can't take advantage of the same rule book to appeal after the race is done is just crazy.



That's a pretty solid point. You should represent Willie at the trial. LOL

[Barbecueboy]

That's a pretty solid point. You should represent Willie at the trial. LOL

Haha.........no trial needed.......he is guilty.......like the independent lab results said he was after 3 try's.

[tsand]

As someone how uses a spectrometer on a daily bases the peaks and valleys would look the same no matter how old a tire is as long as the chemical makeup is the same . The percentage of the chemical make change but the graph will still over lay. How I understand they are not looking for trace chemicals but significant changes in the graph. And for additional charge they can break down the components and identify any forigen chemicals.

[Barbecueboy]

And for an additional charge, lol............but wait, there's more.

I really understand how all this goes and the lab says he's guilty so he's guilty and all that, but if his Q tire is good.......his heat race tire is good.....his race tire is just a couple points short of concrete .its Fayetteville and one lane-ish that night.......and it's Willie ( I've turned a billion fast laps around FMS) Milliken and tonight is probably gonna be my night.

It just makes no sense, zero,nadda for him to want , need or have to cheat them up to win it......but lab says he's guilty......no appeal equals " suck it up"and move along.......hope he laps the field in a couple weeks just to give em the bird.

Guy has earned a little respect and gotten very patient in that super pretty quick...........a far cry from early modified days when he would sail it in there on the first lap and wipe out half the field......or at least the half our guy was in,lol.

I hope it pans out for them teamwise and they handle themselves accordingly as the wins come.......wouldn't hurt my feelings to see them roll into eldora on this current hot streak.......oh, wait.

[Krooser]

30+ years ago when tire softeners just hit the market some of us were BS'ing and the subject of the chemical make-up of these softeners came up... we all wondered what was in 'em. One of the guys wives told us she could find out in 20 mins.

This gal was a registered nurse. She got the phone number of one of the outfits making a softener (maybe Ball's?) and called the company. She said she was an ER nurse and they had a patient that had ingested some of their tire softener and she told them she needed the chemical make-up of product... BINGO! Hung up the phone and walked in the shop with the formula. Now we had could make a five gallon pail of the stuff for $10.00 instead of paying $30/quart.

This was before MSDS info was required.

[Snake X3]

30+ years ago when tire softeners just hit the market some of us were BS'ing and the subject of the chemical make-up of these softeners came up... we all wondered what was in 'em. One of the guys wives told us she could find out in 20 mins.

This gal was a registered nurse. She got the phone number of one of the outfits making a softener (maybe Ball's?) and called the company. She said she was an ER nurse and they had a patient that had ingested some of their tire softener and she told them she needed the chemical make-up of product... BINGO! Hung up the phone and walked in the shop with the formula. Now we had could make a five gallon pail of the stuff for $10.00 instead of paying $30/quart.

This was before MSDS info was required.

LOL! That story should be in a book.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

As someone how uses a spectrometer on a daily bases the peaks and valleys would look the same no matter how old a tire is as long as the chemical makeup is the same . The percentage of the chemical make change but the graph will still over lay. How I understand they are not looking for trace chemicals but significant changes in the graph. And for additional charge they can break down the components and identify any forigen chemicals.

If you add the right compounds, you are good then.