Final appeal

[Dirt Racing #1]

Set for tomorrow.

[Hovlane]

I think this is a first, no one has ever gone to the second and final appeal. They have always went to the first and settled for what ever was decided. I suspect the outcome won't be any different than the first one, I don't think this is going to be the end of this.

[Dirt Racing #1]

At best. May shorten the suspension. But I don't the appeal will change anything at all. Just have to wait and see what happens.

[427c.i.]

I'm wondering if the teams in question, together or individually, won't file an injunction of some sort or pull some type of legal maneuvering right around World 100 time.
Stranger things have happened...

[Dirt Racing #1]

I know that B Shepp, Bloomer and Owens will be appealing. Not sure on Thorton and Satterlee

[wfo2007]

Satterlee tweeted that he is on his way to WRG final appeal. What happens in this process? Are they going for it to be overturned or maybe minimizing the sentence? Just curious what would have changed since the first appeal they lost?

[Dirt Racing #1]

Thanks for adding the info on Satterlee. I would think that they would love to all get the suspension dropped. But I am sure they would settle for shortened suspension. But there is several big races before the world. That they would miss. U.S Nationals etc

[Dirt Racing #1]

I figure will know Tuesday. What the final verdict is.

[HoosierDirtFan]

Steve Sheppard told me on Facebook if this doesn't go right you can guarantee Attorney's will be getting involved fairly quickly. Like the previous poster said will probably know by Tuesday afternoon / Tuesday Evening what the situation is moving forward.

[Dirt Racing #1]

i heard bloomer will be doing the same thing. He may already have hired one.

[tb1545]

From what I've read from the wording of the official statements, and I could be wrong in my comprehension of their posts, is the failed five can only appeal the suspensions terms and NOT appeal the actual results of the tests for why they're suspended.
To me this whole thing reminds me of the Tom Brady NFL suspension. Appeals then courts getting involved to ultimately be told that when you sign on the line to play on their track you agree to their rules no matter how wrong or shady they are. The only way I see this stuff getting anywhere is if there's proof of some magical criminal wrongdoing by UMP.
So my opinion any money spent trying to fight this any further would be better spent organizing some sort of "drivers union" to fight for some transparency in testing and an actual legitimate appeals process throughout the major late model events/sanctions.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Ha ha good luck. Undetectable formula got busted!

[GregA12]

Thanks for adding the info on Satterlee. I would think that they would love to all get the suspension dropped. But I am sure they would settle for shortened suspension. But there is several big races before the world. That they would miss. U.S Nationals etc

I hope they overturn the suspensions. The tracks that chose that sanctioning body are getting penalized for their biggest show of the year by banning people from running the race THEY are putting on. (FALS/Cedar Lake)

[old fan]

Ha ha good luck. Undetectable formula got busted!must've used more than 6 drops lol but really what kind of proof would the racer have to change the suspension

[pickersparadise]

If you appeal and you are denied then they should extend there suspension!!!!!! cheating bastards got what they deserve!!!! Theres no big conspiracy here they cheated and got caught!!!! nuff said!!!!

[cgrace]

agree w post aboout drivers union. drivers do not have rights under currentprocess since its all dirtcar. dirtcar wont admit their processis wrong. but hoping it is improved.

[Barbecueboy]

They're all cheaters.......nothing wrong with the process at all.......ho hum..........nothing to see here.

And by all, I mean every single one of them...........it's been verified on this site.

[Pennsboro23]

Their suspension will be shortened, I can almost guarantee it. I've been saying it the whole time, there's no way that Bloomer, Owens won't be at the biggest race of the year.

[zyoung25]

Their suspension will be shortened, I can almost guarantee it. I've been saying it the whole time, there's no way that Bloomer, Owens won't be at the biggest race of the year.

This place will blow up if it's shortened.

[jog49]

Do the crime, do the time. Independent test results say they did the crime. There's nothing to dispute. Offer some evidence that you didn't do anything because scientific tests say you did!

[blncfn57]

This place will blow up if it's shortened.

I don't think it will be as bad on here as it will in the racing world. Drivers and teams that don't wanna play the tire game have been screaming about this for the last 4 years. I know it was going on before that, but the big blowup with the teams and the sanctioning body that I remember was in 2012 so I'm going by that.
IF one or all of these teams are truly innocent, I feel they should be putting their time and energy into figuring out what caused the problem and getting it corrected rather than just saying "I didn't cheat" and leading the fans to believe the enforcer is crooked. The sanctioning body is trying to enforce rules that the whole pit area knows are being broken. They are trying to find things in which the drivers are being told are "undetectable" by the folks who supply the chemicals. If this was a hoosier problem (5 out of 32, it's not likely) than hoosier needs to make it right with the teams, not WRG/UMP.
I hate to see this happen to anyone and I do not want to believe these 5 guys cheated up their tires, but more times than not, things are just as they seem. I did not want to believe OJ murdered anyone. I am the guy that reads a horrible story of a possible drunk driver causing a fatal accident and I pray that he was not drunk...... because I do not like seeing bad things happen to people. I'm not generally the guy that believes everyone that is charged is guilty and I have been raked over the coals for supporting people that I was proved wrong about in the end, it happens.

The question I have is, everyone knows this tire doping is happening, so if these guys are not doing it, then who are the ones that have everyone stirred up about it? I have been vocal on here and for the sake of these 5 guys I hope I am wrong, but as hard as I try I can't ignore the fact that not only did these 5 samples come back bad against the benchmark, they came back bad against the other 27 tires tested also.
I think we may see some sort of compromise between these drivers and the sanctioning body. I don't think UMP/WRG wants to ruin anyone's reputation, but I think they want to hold their ground so everyone knows they are serious about this tire stuff also. Maybe a reduction of the suspension? I think that may be an option. I do not think that the sanctioning body is going to do anything to cast doubt upon their process, a process the drivers all agreed to when they signed in at the back gate.

[Barbecueboy]

Do the crime, do the time. Independent test results say they did the crime. There's nothing to dispute. Offer some evidence that you didn't do anything because scientific tests say you did!

They are all cheaters.........they have all been vetted and determined to be cheaters by the highest court in the land.

[Barbecueboy]

I don't think it will be as bad on here as it will in the racing world. Drivers and teams that don't wanna play the tire game have been screaming about this for the last 4 years. I know it was going on before that, but the big blowup with the teams and the sanctioning body that I remember was in 2012 so I'm going by that.
IF one or all of these teams are truly innocent, I feel they should be putting their time and energy into figuring out what caused the problem and getting it corrected rather than just saying "I didn't cheat" and leading the fans to believe the enforcer is crooked. The sanctioning body is trying to enforce rules that the whole pit area knows are being broken. They are trying to find things in which the drivers are being told are "undetectable" by the folks who supply the chemicals. If this was a hoosier problem (5 out of 32, it's not likely) than hoosier needs to make it right with the teams, not WRG/UMP.
I hate to see this happen to anyone and I do not want to believe these 5 guys cheated up their tires, but more times than not, things are just as they seem. I did not want to believe OJ murdered anyone. I am the guy that reads a horrible story of a possible drunk driver causing a fatal accident and I pray that he was not drunk...... because I do not like seeing bad things happen to people. I'm not generally the guy that believes everyone that is charged is guilty and I have been raked over the coals for supporting people that I was proved wrong about in the end, it happens.

The question I have is, everyone knows this tire doping is happening, so if these guys are not doing it, then who are the ones that have everyone stirred up about it? I have been vocal on here and for the sake of these 5 guys I hope I am wrong, but as hard as I try I can't ignore the fact that not only did these 5 samples come back bad against the benchmark, they came back bad against the other 27 tires tested also.
I think we may see some sort of compromise between these drivers and the sanctioning body. I don't think UMP/WRG wants to ruin anyone's reputation, but I think they want to hold their ground so everyone knows they are serious about this tire stuff also. Maybe a reduction of the suspension? I think that may be an option. I do not think that the sanctioning body is going to do anything to cast doubt upon their process, a process the drivers all agreed to when they signed in at the back gate.

They are all cheaters......think you said so yourself.

Let's just go wit that.

And fwiw, the promoters don't need to cast doubt on their process, that ship has already sailed.......

[Barbecueboy]

And if it's so cut and dry like you and the other hangmen have all said, why would they even consider reducing any kind of penalties, fines, suspensions, etc...........if they are trying to make a point about tire doping that is.

I can promise you it's not out of the goodness of their heart...........my guess, it's not so cut and dry.

[blncfn57]

And if it's so cut and dry like you and the other hangmen have all said, why would they even consider reducing any kind of penalties, fines, suspensions, etc...........if they are trying to make a point about tire doping that is.

I can promise you it's not out of the goodness of their heart...........my guess, it's not so cut and dry.



I couldn't care less what happens. I believe that the big group of drivers, car owners and crew guys who discuss this topic know what they are talking about. I only said that a reduction may be an option to a compromise. I really wouldn't consider it a "win" for either party tho. If the evidence against them was not sufficient, I think we would have seen a different outcome in the first appeal.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I don't think it will be as bad on here as it will in the racing world. Drivers and teams that don't wanna play the tire game have been screaming about this for the last 4 years. I know it was going on before that, but the big blowup with the teams and the sanctioning body that I remember was in 2012 so I'm going by that.
IF one or all of these teams are truly innocent, I feel they should be putting their time and energy into figuring out what caused the problem and getting it corrected rather than just saying "I didn't cheat" and leading the fans to believe the enforcer is crooked. The sanctioning body is trying to enforce rules that the whole pit area knows are being broken. They are trying to find things in which the drivers are being told are "undetectable" by the folks who supply the chemicals. If this was a hoosier problem (5 out of 32, it's not likely) than hoosier needs to make it right with the teams, not WRG/UMP.
I hate to see this happen to anyone and I do not want to believe these 5 guys cheated up their tires, but more times than not, things are just as they seem. I did not want to believe OJ murdered anyone. I am the guy that reads a horrible story of a possible drunk driver causing a fatal accident and I pray that he was not drunk...... because I do not like seeing bad things happen to people. I'm not generally the guy that believes everyone that is charged is guilty and I have been raked over the coals for supporting people that I was proved wrong about in the end, it happens.

The question I have is, everyone knows this tire doping is happening, so if these guys are not doing it, then who are the ones that have everyone stirred up about it? I have been vocal on here and for the sake of these 5 guys I hope I am wrong, but as hard as I try I can't ignore the fact that not only did these 5 samples come back bad against the benchmark, they came back bad against the other 27 tires tested also.
I think we may see some sort of compromise between these drivers and the sanctioning body. I don't think UMP/WRG wants to ruin anyone's reputation, but I think they want to hold their ground so everyone knows they are serious about this tire stuff also. Maybe a reduction of the suspension? I think that may be an option. I do not think that the sanctioning body is going to do anything to cast doubt upon their process, a process the drivers all agreed to when they signed in at the back gate.Can't believe I'm saying this, but nice post. Only thing that says not completely guilty is why keep pushing the issue? They usually let it go after that first appeal.

I think they are fighting it and trying to get another lab to look at it. We shall see how it shakes out. I'd guess a shorter suspension honestly.

[Umpdirt1]

Read the registration that every driver signs, there is no legal action any driver can take. They basically sign a waiver cut n dry. End of story.

[powerslide]

And if it's so cut and dry like you and the other hangmen have all said, why would they even consider reducing any kind of penalties, fines, suspensions, etc...........if they are trying to make a point about tire doping that is.

I can promise you it's not out of the goodness of their heart...........my guess, it's not so cut and dry.

If they do shorten the sentence it will look exactly as you said. I don't think they can do it without losing further respect from the racers. P-off 5 racers or the other 80?

[W2Racing09]

They are all cheaters.........they have all been vetted and determined to be cheaters by the highest court in the land.

You might as well flip it around, because the reverse is also true.

The drivers/teams have been declared innocent by Barbecueboy, there is no way they could be guilty. Barbecueboy was personally at all five of their shops (simultaneously) for two weeks leading up to the Dream and has been able to confirm with 100% certainly that none of the tires could possibly be illegal in any way.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[blncfn57]

Can't believe I'm saying this, but nice post. Only thing that says not completely guilty is why keep pushing the issue? They usually let it go after that first appeal.

I think they are fighting it and trying to get another lab to look at it. We shall see how it shakes out. I'd guess a shorter suspension honestly.

If it wasn't for the big races the suspension involves I think they prolly would let it go. I also think that it says alot about how confident UMP/WRG is with their process. A decision to suspend a couple of the biggest names in the sport from some of the biggest races in the sport I bet wasn't taken lightly. This is all JMO, for what it's worth.

[Aces&Eights]

If you appeal and you are denied then they should extend there suspension!!!!!! cheating bastards got what they deserve!!!! Theres no big conspiracy here they cheated and got caught!!!! nuff said!!!!

Another keyboard "Know-It-All". Everybody is lying, everybody cheats and his wife is boinking the neighborhood!!!!

[oldfart50]

Yes they cheated and if you think your wife hasnt boinked someone other than you, then you and BBQ are sharing IQ points and he doesnt have many to share...
Another keyboard "Know-It-All". Everybody is lying, everybody cheats and his wife is boinking the neighborhood!!!!

[Barbecueboy]

You might as well flip it around, because the reverse is also true.

The drivers/teams have been declared innocent by Barbecueboy, there is no way they could be guilty. Barbecueboy was personally at all five of their shops (simultaneously) for two weeks leading up to the Dream and has been able to confirm with 100% certainly that none of the tires could possibly be illegal in any way.

Thanks,
Jeff.

And had I ever said anything remotely close to that , then you could make that point....

But I didn't , and you can't.


Unlike all the rest of you that have screamed at the top of your lungs, they all cheat, they all do it..........I never ever once implied anything of the sort about who may or may not have cheated and nothing even close to what you dreamt up about me being at the shops.

My issue is the process...........and the doubt it leaves.

[Barbecueboy]

Read the registration that every driver signs, there is no legal action any driver can take. They basically sign a waiver cut n dry. End of story.

Waiver worth the paper it's written on............even you know that.

[Barbecueboy]

Yes they cheated and if you think your wife hasnt boinked someone other than you, then you and BBQ are sharing IQ points and he doesnt have many to share...

Is it hard to type while laying flat on your back on the sidewalk?????

[Barbecueboy]

If they do shorten the sentence it will look exactly as you said. I don't think they can do it without losing further respect from the racers. P-off 5 racers or the other 80?

I think all the racers would prefer that they just get it right..............and make 100% sure that there is no doubt......zero.

[Barbecueboy]

I don't think it will be as bad on here as it will in the racing world. Drivers and teams that don't wanna play the tire game have been screaming about this for the last 4 years. I know it was going on before that, but the big blowup with the teams and the sanctioning body that I remember was in 2012 so I'm going by that.
IF one or all of these teams are truly innocent, I feel they should be putting their time and energy into figuring out what caused the problem and getting it corrected rather than just saying "I didn't cheat" and leading the fans to believe the enforcer is crooked. The sanctioning body is trying to enforce rules that the whole pit area knows are being broken. They are trying to find things in which the drivers are being told are "undetectable" by the folks who supply the chemicals. If this was a hoosier problem (5 out of 32, it's not likely) than hoosier needs to make it right with the teams, not WRG/UMP.
I hate to see this happen to anyone and I do not want to believe these 5 guys cheated up their tires, but more times than not, things are just as they seem. I did not want to believe OJ murdered anyone. I am the guy that reads a horrible story of a possible drunk driver causing a fatal accident and I pray that he was not drunk...... because I do not like seeing bad things happen to people. I'm not generally the guy that believes everyone that is charged is guilty and I have been raked over the coals for supporting people that I was proved wrong about in the end, it happens.

The question I have is, everyone knows this tire doping is happening, so if these guys are not doing it, then who are the ones that have everyone stirred up about it? I have been vocal on here and for the sake of these 5 guys I hope I am wrong, but as hard as I try I can't ignore the fact that not only did these 5 samples come back bad against the benchmark, they came back bad against the other 27 tires tested also.
I think we may see some sort of compromise between these drivers and the sanctioning body. I don't think UMP/WRG wants to ruin anyone's reputation, but I think they want to hold their ground so everyone knows they are serious about this tire stuff also. Maybe a reduction of the suspension? I think that may be an option. I do not think that the sanctioning body is going to do anything to cast doubt upon their process, a process the drivers all agreed to when they signed in at the back gate.

Compared to the stance you took in the other threads about this, what I'm reading above looks like a giant kettle full of backpeddle stew..........

What happened to .......they're 100% guilty.....get what they deserve......all cheaters.....no doubt about lab results and collection process and all of that????


You got any crackers to go with that?

[Highside Hustler25]

If they do shorten the sentence it will look exactly as you said. I don't think they can do it without losing further respect from the racers. P-off 5 racers or the other 80?

my thoughts as well.

[cgrace]

i hope process gets changed. youall assume guilty but dont know whats the differences of results are? all results the same w each drivers tires? are theydifferent? how different is an oldtire vs new? too many whatifs? they should be tested before racing. the outcome of everyrace could have been diff if they didnt race that night. not fair all way round. are they going back and uppin pay of each other driver in their races that night?

[Barbecueboy]

i hope process gets changed. youall assume guilty but dont know whats the differences of results are? all results the same w each drivers tires? are theydifferent? how different is an oldtire vs new? too many whatifs? they should be tested before racing. the outcome of everyrace could have been diff if they didnt race that night. not fair all way round. are they going back and uppin pay of each other driver in their races that night?

For so many of 4ms judge Judy club to have made their ruling on absolute guilt in this matter.........

There sure does seem to be a lot of question and uncertainties lingering around months later........
Strange considering the tests are 100% accurate and the process is so cut and dry.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Guilty or not this is just a messed up deal.

[Barbecueboy]

Wouldn't be so messed up if it were as cut and dry as all of the appeal-ogists are saying........

Too many questions.........too many doubts..........not enough answers or transparency.

[Dirtfan04]

I hope they overturn the suspensions. The tracks that chose that sanctioning body are getting penalized for their biggest show of the year by banning people from running the race THEY are putting on. (FALS/Cedar Lake)

These tracks should be pissed at the drivers who CHOSE to cheat. They are the ones that are hurting the tracks by making a deliberate decision to disobey the rules that they all agreed to abide by when they CHOSE to race with that sanctioning body.

You don't blame the police for catching a criminal. Oh well wait a minute, maybe that is exactly what is happening this day and time. Maybe that is why so many are standing up for the cheaters and portraying them as victims of the system instead of having then own up to their own decisions and accept the consequences.

What would impress me is if any of the drivers caught would just admit that they made a mistake, own up to it, pledge not to let it happen again, and accept the punishment. If so, then I might just order a shirt or do something else in support of that driver just for being a man in the childish world of today and acting like an adult and doing the right thing. Definitely a rarity these days. I don't think I would be alone. I think others would show their support as well.

But who am I kidding, that will never happen in today's world where the motto is never admit any wrongdoing, just hire a lawyer and fight it till the end.

Ridiculous!

[kidrock]

If they reduce the penalty then they will lose creditability in my opinion. if they are on the up and up as far as the testing goes and they are confident these drivers cheated then stick to your guns and the length of the penalty to let them and the rest of the drivers know this is what happens when you cheat.

[Barbecueboy]

There are a bunch of ifs.........aren't there?

[golddirt]

Few years back feger admitted what he done and it was an honest error but he did not deny it was just a mistake on his part

[kidrock]

There are a bunch of ifs.........aren't there?

Are you asking me or telling me because I wouldn't have a clue if there is a bunch of if's.

[Barbecueboy]

These tracks should be pissed at the drivers who CHOSE to cheat. They are the ones that are hurting the tracks by making a deliberate decision to disobey the rules that they all agreed to abide by when they CHOSE to race with that sanctioning body.

You don't blame the police for catching a criminal. Oh well wait a minute, maybe that is exactly what is happening this day and time. Maybe that is why so many are standing up for the cheaters and portraying them as victims of the system instead of having then own up to their own decisions and accept the consequences.

What would impress me is if any of the drivers caught would just admit that they made a mistake, own up to it, pledge not to let it happen again, and accept the punishment. If so, then I might just order a shirt or do something else in support of that driver just for being a man in the childish world of today and acting like an adult and doing the right thing. Definitely a rarity these days. I don't think I would be alone. I think others would show their support as well.

But who am I kidding, that will never happen in today's world where the motto is never admit any wrongdoing, just hire a lawyer and fight it till the end.

Ridiculous!

What's ridiculous is the police anology..........

They do a full fledged investigation prior to arresting someone ( unless they witness the crime in progress)

And then after that there are facts brought up from both sides to either prove or disprove.........in a court of law.

The system is broken......it's not working......yet it's policed the same way.

But your right, they are all a bunch of cheaters...............why?because Heinz 57 says so.

[Barbecueboy]

Are you asking me or telling me because I wouldn't have a clue if there is a bunch of if's.

You had two just in your short paragraph alone.......

[kidrock]

You had two just in your short paragraph alone.......

I see what your saying and yes they may not be on the up and up that I wouldn't have clue about.

[Dirtfan04]

What's ridiculous is the police anology..........

They do a full fledged investigation prior to arresting someone ( unless they witness the crime in progress)

And then after that there are facts brought up from both sides to either prove or disprove.........in a court of law.

The system is broken......it's not working......yet it's policed the same way.

But your right, they are all a bunch of cheaters...............why?because Heinz 57 says so.


Correct or not, that system is the same system that was in place before the event. It is the system that everyone of those competitors chose to compete under. It was all fine until they got caught. I'm not saying that there isn't a better system, but don't be a hypocrite and cry and complain and say how unfair it was because you were the one who got caught for cheating. They broke the rules that were in place at the time of the event that they had agreed to abide by. Maybe there will be a better system in the future, but that is the system that they agreed to at that race.

[Barbecueboy]

Correct or not, that system is the same system that was in place before the event. It is the system that everyone of those competitors chose to compete under. It was all fine until they got caught. I'm not saying that there isn't a better system, but don't be a hypocrite and cry and complain and say how unfair it was because you were the one who got caught for cheating. They broke the rules that were in place at the time of the event that they had agreed to abide by. Maybe there will be a better system in the future, but that is the system that they agreed to at that race.

I don't think anyone of them said it was unfair..............just that it was incorrect.

[Umpdirt1]

http://www.dirtcarump.com/points/dirtcar-membership-form/

[Barbecueboy]

These tracks should be pissed at the drivers who CHOSE to cheat. They are the ones that are hurting the tracks by making a deliberate decision to disobey the rules that they all agreed to abide by when they CHOSE to race with that sanctioning body.

You don't blame the police for catching a criminal. Oh well wait a minute, maybe that is exactly what is happening this day and time. Maybe that is why so many are standing up for the cheaters and portraying them as victims of the system instead of having then own up to their own decisions and accept the consequences.

What would impress me is if any of the drivers caught would just admit that they made a mistake, own up to it, pledge not to let it happen again, and accept the punishment. If so, then I might just order a shirt or do something else in support of that driver just for being a man in the childish world of today and acting like an adult and doing the right thing. Definitely a rarity these days. I don't think I would be alone. I think others would show their support as well.

But who am I kidding, that will never happen in today's world where the motto is never admit any wrongdoing, just hire a lawyer and fight it till the end.

Ridiculous!

I think I know the answer to this but am going to ask it anyway.........

If someone accused you of doing something that you know for a fact you did not do.....would you just accept what they said as fact or would you try and prove your innocence?

[Barbecueboy]

http://www.dirtcarump.com/points/dirtcar-membership-form/

Love the last sentence in section number 5.........pretty much sums up and puts to rest the fairy tale about ump not being able to be sued or challenged in court because of the waiver signed..............and it starts out with the word, IF..............imagine that.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Says plain as day , the Person bringing the suit must pay for umps legal fees to represent their side of the story.............if I'm the guy being charged with cheating and know I'm innocent.......no problem paying for the ump representation, I'm going to ask for that much if not more in damages anyway.

They will end up in a real court to get a real decision..........not a peanut gallery of one sided accusers that wouldn't admit they are wrong if the room was on fire and they held the match.

[victorylane]

The only people who are crying about the process being flawed are ones who were caught recently or in the past plus some of the keyboard jockeys on here. The only thing I would like to have made public is what was in or missing from the tire. But I'm pretty sure the drivers accused/caught were told what was wrong with the samples and they also have not said publicly what the problem was other than Bloomquist saying something was missing from the sample. Maybe UMP feels the only ones that need to know is them and the accused. If that is there stance and would come out and say that then I would be ok with that.

Also trying to bully UMP by saying that lawyers will be getting involved is funny to me. That tactic might work against the smaller sanctions but not UMP, WOO or LUCAS.

[Dirt Racing #1]

If someone accused you of doing something you didn't do? You need to prove your not guilty. With some sort of evidence. May be difficult in this case.

[Barbecueboy]

If someone accused you of doing something you didn't do? You need to prove your not guilty. With some sort of evidence. May be difficult in this case.

So how exactly are they given the opportunity to prove that they are innocent?

The one sided appeal board that ump puts together???
Retesting the same piece of rubber at the same lab???


Will be difficult if not impossible the way the process is set up..............and that is my beef.

Could care less about the personalities involved..

[Barbecueboy]

If someone accused you of doing something you didn't do? You need to prove your not guilty. With some sort of evidence. May be difficult in this case.

And fwiw..........if this gets to a court of law.

About the only evidence needed to get it tossed out would be to follow the chain of custody of the tire........if they can track the tire from production to when it's sold to the team then there would be no question if the tire came into contact with a contaminant like tire dope as to who introduced it into or onto the tire.......but they can't because such a log and check and balance doesn't exist.

I think it's referred to as reasonable doubt.

And does it really matter?......they are all cheaters......every single racer on the planet......4m and Heinz 57 says so.

[Dirt Racing #1]

I do believe nearly ever driver is breaking the rules. In some sort of way. Not all doping tires.

[Dirt Racing #1]

So how exactly are they given the opportunity to prove that they are innocent?The one sided appeal board that ump puts together???Retesting the same piece of rubber at the same lab???Will be difficult if not impossible the way the process is set up..............and that is my beef.Could care less about the personalities involved..Could request to have another lab do the test

[Barbecueboy]

Could request to have another lab do the test

I don't know that sending a piece of rubber that has already been tested once to another lab would make a difference after the first test was run.

Maybe it's time for the owners to carve out two samples at the time ,handle them exactly the same with the evidence bags et al and send it off to another " independent lab" just for back up.
If they both come back dirty........done deal.
If they both have different results, Houston we have a problem,

Sounds more and more like a drivers Union of sorts wouldn't be all that bad..........



OR

JUST RUN THE OPEN TIRES

[old fan]

From what I've read from the wording of the official statements, and I could be wrong in my comprehension of their posts, is the failed five can only appeal the suspensions terms and NOT appeal the actual results of the tests for why they're suspended. To me this whole thing reminds me of the Tom Brady NFL suspension. Appeals then courts getting involved to ultimately be told that when you sign on the line to play on their track you agree to their rules no matter how wrong or shady they are. The only way I see this stuff getting anywhere is if there's proof of some magical criminal wrongdoing by UMP. So my opinion any money spent trying to fight this any further would be better spent organizing some sort of "drivers union" to fight for some transparency in testing and an actual legitimate appeals process throughout the major late model events/sanctions.ask nascar how the drivers union worked years ago

[Barbecueboy]

ask nascar how the drivers union worked years ago

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Anybody remember that old Chaka Kahn song " tell me something good"?

Just plug in the words " can you fall down now" in place of " tell me something good"

And sing in silence until the laughter comes.

[Barbecueboy]

ask nascar how the drivers union worked years ago

Worked about as good as NASCAR is working now.......but it got some folks attention.

Which is kind of where we are today in DLM racing.

[kidrock]

How about ump taking 2 samples and sending them off to 2 different labs

[old fan]

then again why not sounds good lol http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/shake-and-bake/nascar-and-unions-a-tumultuous-history-070714

[old fan]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/07/AR2007020701607.html

[old fan]

would be nice if lucas would do a tire test sometime in the near future

[blncfn57]

Compared to the stance you took in the other threads about this, what I'm reading above looks like a giant kettle full of backpeddle stew..........

What happened to .......they're 100% guilty.....get what they deserve......all cheaters.....no doubt about lab results and collection process and all of that????


You got any crackers to go with that?

It's nice that you took time away from the black lives matter protest to reply.

You're saying I'm back peddling from an earlier post where I said they were guilty? When did I say they were not? I said above that I have been vocal about the topic and for the sake of the 5 drivers, I hope I am proved wrong. I said you may see a compromise.... that's not uncommon between 2 parties.

If I remember correctly, you kept saying while waiting for the results of the first appeal that changes were coming. That's been a month ago and there have been no changes........ guess your inside info didn't pan out this time.

[Barbecueboy]

It's nice that you took time away from the black lives matter protest to reply.

You're saying I'm back peddling from an earlier post where I said they were guilty? When did I say they were not? I said above that I have been vocal about the topic and for the sake of the 5 drivers, I hope I am proved wrong. I said you may see a compromise.... that's not uncommon between 2 parties.

If I remember correctly, you kept saying while waiting for the results of the first appeal that changes were coming. That's been a month ago and there have been no changes........ guess your inside info didn't pan out this time.

A compromise is very uncommon when you have somebody dead to right.........have you ever heard of a prosecutor making a deal with somebody that they had 100% indisputable evidence against??? ever?.......unless it was to turn states evidence and rat on somebody.

And you are 100 percent correct that I said changes are coming............you did notice that not a single tire sample was collected during the whole month full of hell tour racing didn't you????unless there were some done at the end that haven't been reported on.

Has that ever happened before?doesnt appear they have done a ton of testing in any woo events since then either..........I'm sure all that is just coincedence though, right.

No need to change a thing......and they're not, just leave it alone says wonder mutt .(insert eye roll here)

[kidrock]

A compromise is very uncommon when you have somebody dead to right.........have you ever heard of a prosecutor making a deal with somebody that they had 100% indisputable evidence against??? ever?.......unless it was to turn states evidence and rat on somebody.

And you are 100 percent correct that I said changes are coming............you did notice that not a single tire sample was collected during the whole month full of hell tour racing didn't you????unless there were some done at the end that haven't been reported on.

Has that ever happened before?doesnt appear they have done a ton of testing in any woo events since then either..........I'm sure all that is just coincedence though, right.

No need to change a thing......and they're not, just leave it alone says wonder mutt .(insert eye roll here)

How do you know they haven't done any tire testing? I'm just curious

[Barbecueboy]

It's nice that you took time away from the black lives matter protest to reply.

You're saying I'm back peddling from an earlier post where I said they were guilty? When did I say they were not? I said above that I have been vocal about the topic and for the sake of the 5 drivers, I hope I am proved wrong. I said you may see a compromise.... that's not uncommon between 2 parties.

If I remember correctly, you kept saying while waiting for the results of the first appeal that changes were coming. That's been a month ago and there have been no changes........ guess your inside info didn't pan out this time.

It's nice that you bring up the black lives matter movement.........I guess everything is working just peachy for them too.
How dare they shed light on being falsely accused, ridiculed and targeted by someone in authority that you are supposed to be able to trust.

They should just suck it up and deal with it...........seems to be working fine , right?

[chupp n bloomer fan]

If it wasn't for the big races the suspension involves I think they prolly would let it go. I also think that it says alot about how confident UMP/WRG is with their process. A decision to suspend a couple of the biggest names in the sport from some of the biggest races in the sport I bet wasn't taken lightly. This is all JMO, for what it's worth.Agreed. If it was just them two, I wouldn't bat an eye. They've been there, done that, literally.

Was told by someone who has been tested, that the lab that WoO uses isn't nearly as respected in that line of work as the one Lucas uses. And is under half the price, or at least was. Not that that necessarily means everything.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Read the registration that every driver signs, there is no legal action any driver can take. They basically sign a waiver cut n dry. End of story.Them waivers, lol, they stop nothing. A good lawyer would have, has had, a field day with them.

[Barbecueboy]

How do you know they haven't done any tire testing? I'm just curious

A friend .......that was there.

They may have at oak shade or a couple at the end........but I don't think so at them either.

[Barbecueboy]

Agreed. If it was just them two, I wouldn't bat an eye. They've been there, done that, literally.

Was told by someone who has been tested, that the lab that WoO uses isn't nearly as respected in that line of work as the one Lucas uses. And is under half the price, or at least was. Not that that necessarily means everything.

Dang c and b.........the guys have all but wrapped up the case against the fast five and you have to go and bring this up?????

Not a dang thing wrong with the way they are doing it and the lab they use to do it with.....Heinz 57 has spoken.

[Barbecueboy]

Them waivers, lol, they stop nothing. A good lawyer would have, has had, a field day with them.

Unless ump gets it right and has their stuff together to be indisputable..............WILL HAVE........just sayin.

[slmcrewchief99]

Guess I'll be part of the minority. I've said before that our team has never had a problem with any of the regional series that have checked us. I feel they did it as well as can be done at the track and have no problem with that part of the process. I will agree that part of the process needs to be tweaked but for the most part it is fine. If there was a problem with the process at the dream then ALL the tires from the 30+ samples would have came back dirty. Only 5 did and this is what we have. All 5 of those samples didn't meet the benchmark and were dq'd. Like it or not that was the results of the lab test. After the World, those guys can go right back to racing UMP/WoO like nothing ever happened. Those of us that have been checked and have passed won't have a problem with your return.....

[RW57]

Here is my problem with this tell them what was wrong with tire this is bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) saying it did not meet benchmark what the hell does that mean .Why all the secrecy if you know what's wrong lay it out in black and white.

[oldfart50]

They know what was wrong with the tires. They knew it while they were soaking them...
Here is my problem with this tell them what was wrong with tire this is bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) saying it did not meet benchmark what the hell does that mean .Why all the secrecy if you know what's wrong lay it out in black and white.

[oldfart50]

I did not know you were a supporter of Black Lives Matter. That explains everything...
It's nice that you bring up the black lives matter movement.........I guess everything is working just peachy for them too. How dare they shed light on being falsely accused, ridiculed and targeted by someone in authority that you are supposed to be able to trust. They should just suck it up and deal with it...........seems to be working fine , right?

[dirtdobber45]

I don't know that sending a piece of rubber that has already been tested once to another lab would make a difference after the first test was run.Maybe it's time for the owners to carve out two samples at the time ,handle them exactly the same with the evidence bags et al and send it off to another " independent lab" just for back up.If they both come back dirty........done deal.If they both have different results, Houston we have a problem,Sounds more and more like a drivers Union of sorts wouldn't be all that bad..........ORJUST RUN THE OPEN TIRESI agree with ya BBQ. Why not run open tires? If they wanna soak em go ahead no one would have an advantage so we all win lol

[old fan]

because maybe they want racers stay in business you what major sanctioning has total open tire rule

[dirtdobber45]

Wheres the proof? Why cant we see a hard copy of the results? Like it was said before everybody normally might use that first appeal but rarely the second, there might be something to this. Or maybe like its been said a lower sentence. But it be nice if the public could see the results

[plunks7]

Woo and Ump make enough money to have a lot more officials to do tire testing before they race. The only way to get somebody these days is with DNA!!!! They all cheat in one form or another. I really don't think either of these 2 have a very good Tech guy to be honest. The only thing they seem to check is tires. WTF Run Open tires, anything goes for everybody.

[Vettemaker]

would be nice if lucas would do a tire test sometime in the near future

Lucas does random testing. I know that Bloomer, Landers, Francis, and Lanigan were tested at Portsmouth Forth of July weekend.

[NormP]

It's nice that you bring up the black lives matter movement.........I guess everything is working just peachy for them too.
How dare they shed light on being falsely accused, ridiculed and targeted by someone in authority that you are supposed to be able to trust.

They should just suck it up and deal with it...........seems to be working fine , right?

You're pretty good at making jokes. Because I know you can't be serious with all that black lives matter bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word).

[Umpdirt1]

You mind friend either can't f n read or don't want to believe that the driver registration is a binding contract n no I'm not a lawyer and I (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) sure know you aren't. But just so happens have a friend whose dad was a states attorney. I showed him the drivers registration, guess what. Drives have no recourse it's in f n black n white.

[Barbecueboy]

Guess I'll be part of the minority. I've said before that our team has never had a problem with any of the regional series that have checked us. I feel they did it as well as can be done at the track and have no problem with that part of the process. I will agree that part of the process needs to be tweaked but for the most part it is fine. If there was a problem with the process at the dream then ALL the tires from the 30+ samples would have came back dirty. Only 5 did and this is what we have. All 5 of those samples didn't meet the benchmark and were dq'd. Like it or not that was the results of the lab test. After the World, those guys can go right back to racing UMP/WoO like nothing ever happened. Those of us that have been checked and have passed won't have a problem with your return.....
OH no you don't.........I'm the minority in the room chief........everybody else here knows for 100% certain they are all cheaters.

Or at least the rrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaalllllll smart ones do..........and who you kidding, y'all are all cheatin up your stuff like a bunch of mofos too......surely you've read about it.🤘

[Barbecueboy]

I did not know you were a supporter of Black Lives Matter. That explains everything...

It doesn't really explain why you just suck at being a human being..........and all lives matter by the way...............except yours of course.

[Barbecueboy]

because maybe they want the tire barons to over profit , share through sponsorship and stay in business ( any jibberish after this sentence I can't take credit for in this post,BBQ)..............you what major sanctioning has total open tire rule

Fixed ^^^^^^^^^

[Barbecueboy]

Wheres the proof? Why cant we see a hard copy of the results? Like it was said before everybody normally might use that first appeal but rarely the second, there might be something to this. Or maybe like its been said a lower sentence. But it be nice if the public could see the results

Nahhhhh......lets just trust em.......nobody really needs to know.......the system is flawless.......... Been using it for years,what could possibly go wrong ?

[Barbecueboy]

You're pretty good at making jokes. Because I know you can't be serious with all that black lives matter bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word).

All lives matter.............except for oldfart50 as otherwise noted........and I'm sticking too it.

[blncfn57]

OH no you don't.........I'm the minority in the room chief........everybody else here knows for 100% certain they are all cheaters.

Or at least the rrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaalllllll smart ones do..........and who you kidding, y'all are all cheatin up your stuff like a bunch of mofos too......surely you've read about it.落

Now who is back peddling? the guy says they have not and don't have a problem with the process. says maube it could be tweaked but no real issues. How do you agree with him when you keep saying the system is all wrong and needs overhauled?

[Barbecueboy]

You mind friend either can't f n read or don't want to believe that the driver registration is a binding contract n no I'm not a lawyer and I (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) sure know you aren't. But just so happens have a friend whose dad was a states attorney. I showed him the drivers registration, guess what. Drives have no recourse it's in f n black n white.

and let me guess.........your friend?.........holiday inn express regular?

Oh well, there you have it folks and you heard it here first........the courts can dismiss all the contractual disputes being litigated today and moving forward..........ump dudes friends dad says so!

[blncfn57]

Here is my problem with this tell them what was wrong with tire this is bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) saying it did not meet benchmark what the hell does that mean .Why all the secrecy if you know what's wrong lay it out in black and white.

You or I do not know the communication from the sanctioning body to the drivers and owners. Just because we haven't been told does not mean the ones involved haven't been.

[blncfn57]

And you are 100 percent correct that I said changes are coming............you did notice that not a single tire sample was collected during the whole month full of hell tour racing didn't you????unless there were some done at the end that haven't been reported on.

Has that ever happened before?doesnt appear they have done a ton of testing in any woo events since then either..........I'm sure all that is just coincedence though, right.




You're wrong again, Piercefan or one of them guys close to that camp posted that Bobby had his tires checked every night of the tour early on. guessing you missed that discussion.

[old fan]

Fixed ^^^^^^^^^ wrong totally wrong the tire barons would make more money on a open tire rule and put every low buck team out of business congrats another passion for many would be gone

[Barbecueboy]

Now who is back peddling? the guy says they have not and don't have a problem with the process. says maube it could be tweaked but no real issues. How do you agree with him when you keep saying the system is all wrong and needs overhauled?

recognizing humor and sarcasm also part of your expertise I see..............nice.

[Barbecueboy]

You or I do not know the communication from the sanctioning body to the drivers and owners. Just because we haven't been told does not mean the ones involved haven't been.

Yep, nobody that posts on this site knows or ever talks to any of them............ever.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

You mind friend either can't f n read or don't want to believe that the driver registration is a binding contract n no I'm not a lawyer and I (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) sure know you aren't. But just so happens have a friend whose dad was a states attorney. I showed him the drivers registration, guess what. Drives have no recourse it's in f n black n white.He was an attorney, so as an attorney, he knows, that different courts will interpret things differently. Happens every day.

[blncfn57]

recognizing humor and sarcasm also part of your expertise I see..............nice.

lol don't you have some pork to go pull or something?

[a25rjr]

Cochrans dead, Kardashians dead.......Surely one of pimp daddy OJ's dream team of lawyers can help these boyz out!

You better speak up Mr. Rigsby, or your ppv's are going to take a serious hit come W100 time!

[Barbecueboy]

You're wrong again, Piercefan or one of them guys close to that camp posted that Bobby had his tires checked every night of the tour early on. guessing you missed that discussion.

Is that right?

I must have missed that completely......care to find it and repost?

I'm kind of a see for myself kinda guy, would like to read that one.

If my memory serves correctly,I believe there was some discussion about it in one of the tire gate threads and there was some duplicate verification of minimal if non existent testing during the summer nationals up to that point.

But you go right on ahead........I'm wrong.......they all cheat.....and you have the floor goob.

[Barbecueboy]

You mind friend either can't f n read or don't want to believe that the driver registration is a binding contract n no I'm not a lawyer and I (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) sure know you aren't. But just so happens have a friend whose dad was a states attorney. I showed him the drivers registration, guess what. Drives have no recourse it's in f n black n white.

And I like how you called me your " mind friend" ........that's a cool fraudianism.

Thanks

[Highside Hustler25]

lol don't you have some pork to go pull or something?

Sorry BBQ, yer good folk, but that was a good one:D

[old fan]

bbq has something to pull on not sure if its pork maybe that's what he calls it

[Barbecueboy]

wrong totally wrong the tire barons would make more money on a open tire rule and put every low buck team out of business congrats another passion for many would be gone

Chaka Kahn........Chaka Kahn.......Chaka Kahn.

[old fan]

go pull your pork lmao

[Umpdirt1]

So a former states attorney doesn't know the f n law n you do. Your f n out of your f n mind know it all f n smarta**. Your so full of sh**t it's coming out of your eyes. Your have a bullsh**t opinion on everything. You fat fuc*

[Barbecueboy]

He was an attorney, so as an attorney, he knows, that different courts will interpret things differently. Happens every day.

There was this album back in the day...........title was " stop making sense......bands name escapes me.

[Highside Hustler25]

You or I do not know the communication from the sanctioning body to the drivers and owners. Just because we haven't been told does not mean the ones involved haven't been.

by now I would have expected one of them to make a tweet or FB post on it. guess we wait till tomorrow.

[Barbecueboy]

lol don't you have some pork to go pull or something?

Sure do Arnold.......I'm pulling some at the ziffle farm as we speak.

[Barbecueboy]

So a former states attorney doesn't know the f n law n you do. Your f n out of your f n mind know it all f n smarta**. Your so full of sh**t it's coming out of your eyes. Your have a bullsh**t opinion on everything. You fat fuc*

Let's see.......I have an opinion.....I'm on a site that declares it to be the most opinionated on the net.......and you're so mad that the potty mouth has taken over.

Yep, game over..........and nice touch with body descriptor too.

Mad bro?

[Barbecueboy]

by now I would have expected one of them to make a tweet or FB post on it. guess we wait till tomorrow.

They did.....it said that we're all very sorry for cheating and they asked that everything concerning tires and series racing remain the same.

They also asked for all their fellow cheaters to come clean and just admit that to be a racer you have to cheat......it's part of the code.

[Barbecueboy]

Sorry BBQ, yer good folk, but that was a good one:D

Dude, that's nothing.......I got scumdirt giving me the full on stink eye, potty mouth and hair pulling all at the same time.

[Barbecueboy]

So a former states attorney doesn't know the f n law n you do. Your f n out of your f n mind know it all f n smarta**. Your so full of sh**t it's coming out of your eyes. Your have a bullsh**t opinion on everything. You fat fuc*

And really it has more to do with thinking you're full of shiyot than it does your buddies dad knowing better than to say what he did without knowing the facts of the potential case.

So yep, you're just full of shyte..........you're story as you told it never happened.

[slmcrewchief99]

Dang BBQ, sounds like Umpdirt1 don't like you. I don't agree with you on this subject but I do value your opinion. Appears somebody needs to spit in their hand and relieve a little pressure. lol

[dirtdobber45]

because maybe they want racers stay in business you what major sanctioning has total open tire ruleHate to admit it but I understood what meant...sorta
wrong totally wrong the tire barons would make more money on a open tire rule and put every low buck team out of business congrats another passion for many would be goneYou dip soaking the tire(s) make them last longer so that means more races on em which means the low buck teams wouldnt have to buy more tires each race...it would save the low buck teams not run them off

[dirtdobber45]

Sure do Arnold.......I'm pulling some at the ziffle farm as we speak.Thats 'SOME PIG' bbq lmao

[non driving fool]

So a former states attorney doesn't know the f n law n you do. Your f n out of your f n mind know it all f n smarta**. Your so full of sh**t it's coming out of your eyes. Your have a bullsh**t opinion on everything. You fat fuc* I hate it when someone holds back just to be polite, why not tell em what you really think?

[Work2race]

In other news, Anyone get the beat down of the disrespectful, mouthy, narcissistic little pansy ass Cody Mallory put on him by one of Bloomquist's own crew? First it was Tommy Hicks choking him with his knife out then, old man Randy Sweet had him by the throat pinned up to the hauler. How long is Scott going to let this disruptive little prick continue to ruin everything around him? Yes he's winning, but in spite of this drug addict. Look at how screwed up the operation is. Late every week, dq'd, all Scott' friends abandoned him and alienated all due to one sociopath mental burn out drug addicted A-hole. Scott won a lot of races before that A-hole. Time for a change

[fryefan]

I hope they overturn the suspensions. The tracks that chose that sanctioning body are getting penalized for their biggest show of the year by banning people from running the race THEY are putting on. (FALS/Cedar Lake)

IF, and I repeat, IF they were illegal tires, then there is NO WAY that the suspensions should be overturned. There will be plenty of good drivers with, or without them at the events you mentioned.

[fryefan]

I don't think it will be as bad on here as it will in the racing world. Drivers and teams that don't wanna play the tire game have been screaming about this for the last 4 years. I know it was going on before that, but the big blowup with the teams and the sanctioning body that I remember was in 2012 so I'm going by that.
IF one or all of these teams are truly innocent, I feel they should be putting their time and energy into figuring out what caused the problem and getting it corrected rather than just saying "I didn't cheat" and leading the fans to believe the enforcer is crooked. The sanctioning body is trying to enforce rules that the whole pit area knows are being broken. They are trying to find things in which the drivers are being told are "undetectable" by the folks who supply the chemicals. If this was a hoosier problem (5 out of 32, it's not likely) than hoosier needs to make it right with the teams, not WRG/UMP.
I hate to see this happen to anyone and I do not want to believe these 5 guys cheated up their tires, but more times than not, things are just as they seem. I did not want to believe OJ murdered anyone. I am the guy that reads a horrible story of a possible drunk driver causing a fatal accident and I pray that he was not drunk...... because I do not like seeing bad things happen to people. I'm not generally the guy that believes everyone that is charged is guilty and I have been raked over the coals for supporting people that I was proved wrong about in the end, it happens.

The question I have is, everyone knows this tire doping is happening, so if these guys are not doing it, then who are the ones that have everyone stirred up about it? I have been vocal on here and for the sake of these 5 guys I hope I am wrong, but as hard as I try I can't ignore the fact that not only did these 5 samples come back bad against the benchmark, they came back bad against the other 27 tires tested also.
I think we may see some sort of compromise between these drivers and the sanctioning body. I don't think UMP/WRG wants to ruin anyone's reputation, but I think they want to hold their ground so everyone knows they are serious about this tire stuff also. Maybe a reduction of the suspension? I think that may be an option. I do not think that the sanctioning body is going to do anything to cast doubt upon their process, a process the drivers all agreed to when they signed in at the back gate.

You raise some excellent points.

[fryefan]

These tracks should be pissed at the drivers who CHOSE to cheat. They are the ones that are hurting the tracks by making a deliberate decision to disobey the rules that they all agreed to abide by when they CHOSE to race with that sanctioning body.

You don't blame the police for catching a criminal. Oh well wait a minute, maybe that is exactly what is happening this day and time. Maybe that is why so many are standing up for the cheaters and portraying them as victims of the system instead of having then own up to their own decisions and accept the consequences.

What would impress me is if any of the drivers caught would just admit that they made a mistake, own up to it, pledge not to let it happen again, and accept the punishment. If so, then I might just order a shirt or do something else in support of that driver just for being a man in the childish world of today and acting like an adult and doing the right thing. Definitely a rarity these days. I don't think I would be alone. I think others would show their support as well.

But who am I kidding, that will never happen in today's world where the motto is never admit any wrongdoing, just hire a lawyer and fight it till the end.

Ridiculous!

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

[fryefan]

If they reduce the penalty then they will lose creditability in my opinion. if they are on the up and up as far as the testing goes and they are confident these drivers cheated then stick to your guns and the length of the penalty to let them and the rest of the drivers know this is what happens when you cheat.

I agree with this assessment.

[fryefan]

The only people who are crying about the process being flawed are ones who were caught recently or in the past plus some of the keyboard jockeys on here. The only thing I would like to have made public is what was in or missing from the tire. But I'm pretty sure the drivers accused/caught were told what was wrong with the samples and they also have not said publicly what the problem was other than Bloomquist saying something was missing from the sample. Maybe UMP feels the only ones that need to know is them and the accused. If that is there stance and would come out and say that then I would be ok with that.

Also trying to bully UMP by saying that lawyers will be getting involved is funny to me. That tactic might work against the smaller sanctions but not UMP, WOO or LUCAS.

You raise some excellent points.

[fryefan]

Guess I'll be part of the minority. I've said before that our team has never had a problem with any of the regional series that have checked us. I feel they did it as well as can be done at the track and have no problem with that part of the process. I will agree that part of the process needs to be tweaked but for the most part it is fine. If there was a problem with the process at the dream then ALL the tires from the 30+ samples would have came back dirty. Only 5 did and this is what we have. All 5 of those samples didn't meet the benchmark and were dq'd. Like it or not that was the results of the lab test. After the World, those guys can go right back to racing UMP/WoO like nothing ever happened. Those of us that have been checked and have passed won't have a problem with your return.....

Thanks for sharing that.

[old fan]

my question how many times can a team get caught and just get a slap on the wrist

[Barbecueboy]

IF, and I repeat, IF they were illegal tires, then there is NO WAY that the suspensions should be overturned. There will be plenty of good drivers with, or without them at the events you mentioned.

I completely agree.........

[Barbecueboy]

I hate it when someone holds back just to be polite, why not tell em what you really think?

Yep , normally during a heated conversation..........when someone starts making it personal and cussing and stuff...........they know they have lost the argument and its all they got.

I saw that too, poor Sam.

[Barbecueboy]

You're wrong again, Piercefan or one of them guys close to that camp posted that Bobby had his tires checked every night of the tour early on. guessing you missed that discussion.

I'm guessing you haven't been able to find any of the posts that you speak of above......huh?

I wish I wasn't wrong......again....so much.lmao

[blncfn57]

I'm guessing you haven't been able to find any of the posts that you speak of above......huh?

I wish I wasn't wrong......again....so much.lmao

I have not looked, smarty. I'm not old a crusty, I still have other things to do beside check 4m all the time. I just now seen your request, I will look for the post.

[Barbecueboy]

I have not looked, smarty. I'm not old a crusty, I still have other things to do beside check 4m all the time. I just now seen your request, I will look for the post.

Thanks for indulging me..........I truly must have missed it and heard it completely different.......from someone that was there most nights, on the grounds.

I know we both have differing opinions on the tire rule disaster and most likely won't ever agree , but I appreciate the dialogue and it's good for the sport.

Gets things out in the open and what's on people's minds......and if we are lucky..........somebody that reads it or stumbles across it that can make a difference will share the frustrations from a paying fan or sponsors perspective to someone that will matter........and something better will come out of it.

[Barbecueboy]

I have not looked, smarty. I'm not old a crusty, I still have other things to do beside check 4m all the time. I just now seen your request, I will look for the post.

Did you really just call me " smarty"?

When is recess,lol?

[jensenracing18]

I'm guessing you haven't been able to find any of the posts that you speak of above......huh? I wish I wasn't wrong......again....so much.lmao I know they took samples at Merrit and Oakshade also pretty sure I saw them pulling samples at Peoria, Macon and Farmer city as well

[Barbecueboy]

I know they took samples at Merrit and Oakshade also pretty sure I saw them pulling samples at Peoria, Macon and Farmer city as well

10/4........wasn't real sure about the events at the end of the series.


They weren't testing Jack after the dream announcement and first couple weeks of the series though.........was strange.

[jensenracing18]

yea it has been kind of quiet lately you usually at least see a quick post somewhere that all samples collected passed or met the guidelines required

[blncfn57]

Thanks for indulging me..........I truly must have missed it and heard it completely different.......from someone that was there most nights, on the grounds.

I know we both have differing opinions on the tire rule disaster and most likely won't ever agree , but I appreciate the dialogue and it's good for the sport.

Gets things out in the open and what's on people's minds......and if we are lucky..........somebody that reads it or stumbles across it that can make a difference will share the frustrations from a paying fan or sponsors perspective to someone that will matter........and something better will come out of it.

LOL
Here is the link, it's post 62

http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?359313-Summer-Nats&p=2019085#post2019085

[Barbecueboy]

Thats 'SOME PIG' bbq lmao

Indeed........

[Barbecueboy]

LOL
Here is the link, it's post 62

http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?359313-Summer-Nats&p=2019085#post2019085

Turns out he was incorrect, huh.............they weren't checking ( or hadn't been ) up to that point and at that time in the series.

But in your defense.......you did read it from a non racing poster on 4m.......so, must be true?

Thanks for indulging me and showing he made that post, but I think I'll stick with the info from folks that were actually at the tracks anyway if youre ok with that, lol.

[blncfn57]

Turns out he was incorrect, huh.............they weren't checking ( or hadn't been ) up to that point and at that time in the series.

But in your defense.......you did read it from a non racing poster on 4m.......so, must be true?

Thanks for indulging me and showing he made that post, but I think I'll stick with the info from folks that were actually at the tracks anyway if youre ok with that, lol.

I generally don't go to the races to watch what the officials are doing. All I said was that it was posted on here and I provided where I read it. I did not see where his post was proved to be wrong. Nonetheless, they did check during the summer nationals as I did happen to see it as I was leaving one night and several others have posted that it was being done. My question for you is, did they change the process? It sure doesn't sound like it.
I don't understand why you get so uptight when someone shares a different opinion than you? Yes, I think these 5 are guilty, as much as I'd like to believe they are not, I just can't fall to the level of believing a screwed up system only caused 5 bad samples. It's not a personal thing with you, I just don't agree with your theory on the subject. Heck, if the system was so shady, I don't think the drivers would WANT to participate in any events associated with that sanction. Brandon went right back to entering the events afterwards. That tells me the system used is not the problem. That's just the way I see it and my opinion, I've been known to be wrong before....... my ex wife says anyway.

[rageman]

I don't get this because if someone is using tire prep on there tires and the conditions are hot dry and abrasive track ,well being involved in karting for years and yes we prepped tires but they were usually used only in heat races and for the features we would keep a set of 4 virgin tires and my point is that it doesn't mean these drivers are guilty ,some one else could have been using prep and when these cars that got supposedly caught could have very well picked the prep up from the track that someone else layed down on the track ,just some thing that has been on my mind so don't call them cheaters until they make a ruling ,but I still have my doubts that these guys were cheating

[turnleftandgasit]

Taking a sample during the manufacturing process won't hold up in a court of law. The tires are not delivered in a sealed container, any number of people had access to them before being sold to a driver. Do I think these drivers cheated, most likely, but they have a very strong case in my eyes. Unless you have a sample of the tire from the day they took possession of it, you can not prove they altered it or that it wasn't altered before they got it.

[blncfn57]

I don't get this because if someone is using tire prep on there tires and the conditions are hot dry and abrasive track ,well being involved in karting for years and yes we prepped tires but they were usually used only in heat races and for the features we would keep a set of 4 virgin tires and my point is that it doesn't mean these drivers are guilty ,some one else could have been using prep and when these cars that got supposedly caught could have very well picked the prep up from the track that someone else layed down on the track ,just some thing that has been on my mind so don't call them cheaters until they make a ruling ,but I still have my doubts that these guys were cheating

I suppose if you wanna go by that theory that's up to you, but I would have a hard time believing that only 5 of the 32 manged to pick up the said prep from the racetrack. They have made a ruling, they also stood by that ruling at the first appeal and most likely will at this final appeal.

[blncfn57]

Taking a sample during the manufacturing process won't hold up in a court of law. The tires are not delivered in a sealed container, any number of people had access to them before being sold to a driver. Do I think these drivers cheated, most likely, but they have a very strong case in my eyes. Unless you have a sample of the tire from the day they took possession of it, you can not prove they altered it or that it wasn't altered before they got it.

It is only the sanctioning body's job to say whether or not a tire used in competition was legal or not. They can't give free passes because someone 3 handlings ago prepped it.... imagine the mess that would create. If a crate guy buys a truckload of used tires from someone that had been running prepped tires and they get caught with them, the tires are still illegal whether they "knew" or not.
I'm fairly certain, as big $ as the the sport has become, that there are people in business either offering tire prepping service or actually buying the tires themselves and pepping them to resell. That's why UMP/WRG can't go by anything other than if the tires used were legal or not.

[Barbecueboy]

I generally don't go to the races to watch what the officials are doing. All I said was that it was posted on here and I provided where I read it. I did not see where his post was proved to be wrong. Nonetheless, they did check during the summer nationals as I did happen to see it as I was leaving one night and several others have posted that it was being done. My question for you is, did they change the process? It sure doesn't sound like it.
I don't understand why you get so uptight when someone shares a different opinion than you? Yes, I think these 5 are guilty, as much as I'd like to believe they are not, I just can't fall to the level of believing a screwed up system only caused 5 bad samples. It's not a personal thing with you, I just don't agree with your theory on the subject. Heck, if the system was so shady, I don't think the drivers would WANT to participate in any events associated with that sanction. Brandon went right back to entering the events afterwards. That tells me the system used is not the problem. That's just the way I see it and my opinion, I've been known to be wrong before....... my ex wife says anyway.

I think you have uptight confused with " a different opinion".......just because my opinion differs doesn't mean that i don't have the same right as you to state my opinion and give reasons as to why.

I don't think the system used is as much shady as it is outdated, inaccurate and loaded with potential places for errors to occur...........I'm of the belief that there should be absolutely no doubt.........and as it is, and you can say it's only BBQBOY bitching about it if you want, but there are many many people that work on, drive, own, sponsor and attend this traveling circus we all go too that have doubts in the way things are done.

If it were just me, then sure........I'm the lunatic in the room.......fine.

So we can just disagree and btw if you've ever noticed.......I'm virtually never the guy that makes the aggressive post first......check for yourself.

I may be the noisiest and the most pointed in the room once it gets going, but rarely ever do I fire the first salvo.............( litey and oldfart50 maybe being the exception)

And fwiw........they didn't test a soul in the early weeks following the dream announcement at the Summer Nats.......maybe a driver or SAMs mouthpiece on here can set me straight on it.

[Barbecueboy]

I don't get this because if someone is using tire prep on there tires and the conditions are hot dry and abrasive track ,well being involved in karting for years and yes we prepped tires but they were usually used only in heat races and for the features we would keep a set of 4 virgin tires and my point is that it doesn't mean these drivers are guilty ,some one else could have been using prep and when these cars that got supposedly caught could have very well picked the prep up from the track that someone else layed down on the track ,just some thing that has been on my mind so don't call them cheaters until they make a ruling ,but I still have my doubts that these guys were cheating

Doubts you say?????

[Barbecueboy]

Taking a sample during the manufacturing process won't hold up in a court of law. The tires are not delivered in a sealed container, any number of people had access to them before being sold to a driver. Do I think these drivers cheated, most likely, but they have a very strong case in my eyes. Unless you have a sample of the tire from the day they took possession of it, you can not prove they altered it or that it wasn't altered before they got it.

I've heard that somewhere else before..........you bring up a good point.

[Barbecueboy]

I suppose if you wanna go by that theory that's up to you, but I would have a hard time believing that only 5 of the 32 manged to pick up the said prep from the racetrack. They have made a ruling, they also stood by that ruling at the first appeal and most likely will at this final appeal.

i suppose???? Have a hard time believing???most likely???

All statements that seem to open the window of uncertainty.

The right guy in the right situation representing the right person will have a field day with that type of chatter.........there should be no mights, maybes or we are 90 % sures.

[Barbecueboy]

It is only the sanctioning body's job to say whether or not a tire used in competition was legal or not. They can't give free passes because someone 3 handlings ago prepped it.... imagine the mess that would create. If a crate guy buys a truckload of used tires from someone that had been running prepped tires and they get caught with them, the tires are still illegal whether they "knew" or not.
I'm fairly certain, as big $ as the the sport has become, that there are people in business either offering tire prepping service or actually buying the tires themselves and pepping them to resell. That's why UMP/WRG can't go by anything other than if the tires used were legal or not.

Imagine the mess it WOULD create???? As if the mess we have now is ok???

[Bubstr]

I don't think World Racing group, really cares who doped the tires. You can dope thousands of tires, but until you race on them, you have broken no rules. They only care if the benchmark was solid and that these tires didn't match that benchmark. End of story. Black and white. Not knowing the tires where doped is not a measure of innocents, just a measure of ignorance.

We all know that lots of them cheat some, we just have to wonder how many escaped this round of witch hunt. I kinda feel sorry for these guys, because they where probably told this stuff is undetectable, just like the ones that didn't get caught this time.

I will miss a couple at PDC and Cedar Lake, not that they always win, but they make the prize of winning so much bigger.

[NY DIRT]

Drop the suspension from 90 days to 60 days. But since the final appeal was July 18th, the suspension should start July 19th and end Sept. 16th. There you have it from the voice of reason...

[Barbecueboy]

I don't think World Racing group, really cares who doped the tires. You can dope thousands of tires, but until you race on them, you have broken no rules. They only care if the benchmark was solid and that these tires didn't match that benchmark. End of story. Black and white. Not knowing the tires where doped is not a measure of innocents, just a measure of ignorance.

We all know that lots of them cheat some, we just have to wonder how many escaped this round of witch hunt. I kinda feel sorry for these guys, because they where probably told this stuff is undetectable, just like the ones that didn't get caught this time.

I will miss a couple at PDC and Cedar Lake, not that they always win, but they make the prize of winning so much bigger.

If it were black and white.......nobody would still be talking about it.

[turnleftandgasit]

If you are gonna make the racer responsible for having an untreated tire, the manufacturer should be required to provide the driver with a tire in a package that is sealed. Again, I do not think the drivers are innocent, I just couldn't convict them in a court of law. UMP and Hoosier can not prove that a brand new tire, hasn't been doctored, or came into contact with chemicals, before the racer receives it. Once it leaves the factory, all bets are off. Truck driver, people at the warehouse, UPS driver, chemicals.............Too many variables. Do I think that is what happened? No, I don't, but you can't prove it didn't!

[huskerdirt]

If it were black and white.......nobody would still be talking about it.

It is pretty black and white actually. The only reason this came up was because of the final appeal aka a Hail Mary. A final appeal doesn't make it all of sudden any less black and white. If they couldn't prove there case in the first appeal. What makes you think it's gonna happen this time around?

Most of this topic is you arguing, blabbering out gibberish and contradicting yourself. Like when you said a "friend" told you they weren't taking tire samples. But when somebody said that wasn't the case. You stated that you are a "see for yourself kinda guy".

You and you only are the reason this topic is 8 pages. Not because people are talking about it. Child, please.

[Cardirt0]

Its not that the ones that did it were caught.. Its what if the ones they say did it Did not....Now you are a Cheat when you are NOT.... Thats a WRONG that will never be made right.....There is nothing worst then knowing they say you did something Wrong when YOU know you did not.... I spoke too Jason and he told me... They call me a Cheat, and I know I did nothing WRONG, you dont know how much that $ucks..............

[Barbecueboy]

If you are gonna make the racer responsible for having an untreated tire, the manufacturer should be required to provide the driver with a tire in a package that is sealed. Again, I do not think the drivers are innocent, I just couldn't convict them in a court of law. UMP and Hoosier can not prove that a brand new tire, hasn't been doctored, or came into contact with chemicals, before the racer receives it. Once it leaves the factory, all bets are off. Truck driver, people at the warehouse, UPS driver, chemicals.............Too many variables. Do I think that is what happened? No, I don't, but you can't prove it didn't!

Your going to be labeled a pig puller if you keep that up^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Don't really think I could have said it better if I tried..........and believe me, I've tried.

[Barbecueboy]

It is pretty black and white actually. The only reason this came up was because of the final appeal aka a Hail Mary. A final appeal doesn't make it all of sudden any less black and white. If they couldn't prove there case in the first appeal. What makes you think it's gonna happen this time around?

Most of this topic is you arguing, blabbering out gibberish and contradicting yourself. Like when you said a "friend" told you they weren't taking tire samples. But when somebody said that wasn't the case. You stated that you are a "see for yourself kinda guy".

You and you only are the reason this topic is 8 pages. Not because people are talking about it. Child, please.

Actually I said " somebody that was there told me they weren't taking samples during the begnning of the summer nationals ( right after the dream announcement).

And they weren't........your man Heinz 57 took a post from a pierce fan 4 m member that said Bobby was being checked during that period......he found it and posted it.........truth is , he was wrong, nobody got checked, just as my buddy who was there said.

I also stated that I wasn't sure about any races at the end of the series being checked......that has since been verified that there were samples collected at the last few races by someone who was actually there.

It's been far from black and white from the beginning.............but in your mind, I'm the only guy questioning it , even though there are multiple examples in this very thread that show others aren't real comfortable with the process either........again, guys that actually go to the track more than a couple times a year.

You should try it.......you may learn something about racing instead of learning how to get wireless to work in moms basement so you can post.

[blncfn57]

Your going to be labeled a pig puller if you keep that up^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Don't really think I could have said it better if I tried..........and believe me, I've tried.

Again, it is not the sanctioning bodies job to figure out when a tire became illegal or who knew about it. It is only their job to enforce the rules. All they care about, and should care about, is if an illegal tire was ran in competition at one of their events.

[Barbecueboy]

It is pretty black and white actually. The only reason this came up was because of the final appeal aka a Hail Mary. A final appeal doesn't make it all of sudden any less black and white. If they couldn't prove there case in the first appeal. What makes you think it's gonna happen this time around?

Most of this topic is you arguing, blabbering out gibberish and contradicting yourself. Like when you said a "friend" told you they weren't taking tire samples. But when somebody said that wasn't the case. You stated that you are a "see for yourself kinda guy".

You and you only are the reason this topic is 8 pages. Not because people are talking about it. Child, please.
And nice aunt ester impersonation ......big dummy.

[turnleftandgasit]

If you can't prove you delivered a legal tire to the racer, how can you penalize the racer?

[Barbecueboy]

Again, it is not the sanctioning bodies job to figure out when a tire became illegal or who knew about it. It is only their job to enforce the rules. All they care about, and should care about, is if an illegal tire was ran in competition at one of their events.

Right......they shouldn't care about labeling the guys that get the bills paid as cheaters.

We don't care how they may have been contaminated or at what level of custody they could have been tainted......lets just assume like you have all said, they are all just cheaters

Let's just turn a blind eye to the almost unlimited potential of who , how and why and let's just hang it on the drivers.........they have no recourse anyway, correct?

Seems logical

[Cardirt0]

Again, it is not the sanctioning bodies job to figure out when a tire became illegal or who knew about it. It is only their job to enforce the rules. All they care about, and should care about, is if an illegal tire was ran in competition at one of their events.

But if Hoosier sells me a tire that is illegal, I should be able too sue them.....If I was them, and did not Dope my tire, I would sue them... Then Hoosier have too prove they did not.......

[turnleftandgasit]

Would you take medicine from a bottle that wasn't sealed? Why not? They took a sample of it at the factory.

[Barbecueboy]

If you can't prove you delivered a legal tire to the racer, how can you penalize the racer?

Stop making sense.......this conversation has no place for it......especially with huskerdirt and oldfart50 in the room.

[vande07]

If you can't prove you delivered a legal tire to the racer, how can you penalize the racer?

Last I checked, UMP, WRG, Lucas, MLRA, etc.,etc. don't sell or delivery any tires. They are the ones enforcing their rules (which is the tire samples must meet the benchmark provided by the tire manufacturer).

If this was Hoosier or Goodyear doing the testing, then yes I agree that they should be able to prove that they delivered a legal tire to the racer.

But, just like I was told when I was much younger by a police officer when I broke a law, "Just because you don't know you were breaking a law(rule) it doesn't change the fact that you broke it. You have to pay the price. Ignorance is not an excuse."

[Barbecueboy]

But if Hoosier sells me a tire that is illegal, I should be able too sue them.....If I was them, and did not Dope my tire, I would sue them... Then Hoosier have too prove they did not.......

Endless possibilities..........I've said from the beginning, somebody that doesn't mind throwing a little money at it is going to make an example out of somebody.

That's when the serious changing of the tire rule will get done.......

In due time , not a matter of if but when.........wrong guy is going to get accused and something will get done.......write it down.

[huskerdirt]

If you can't prove you delivered a legal tire to the racer, how can you penalize the racer?

If you can't prove you didn't alter the tire after delivery. Then why should the manufacturer prove they delivered a legal tire.

[Cardirt0]

Stop making sense.......this conversation has no place for it......especially with huskerdirt and oldfart50 in the room.

Cant be leave I am with turnleft on this, But hes right, If they cant prove that they were given a Clean tire, Then UMP cant prove that it was not clean be for they got it......

[Barbecueboy]

Last I checked, UMP, WRG, Lucas, MLRA, etc.,etc. don't sell or delivery any tires. They are the ones enforcing their rules (which is the tire samples must meet the benchmark provided by the tire manufacturer).

If this was Hoosier or Goodyear doing the testing, then yes I agree that they should be able to prove that they delivered a legal tire to the racer.

But, just like I was told when I was much younger by a police officer when I broke a law, "Just because you don't know you were breaking a law(rule) it doesn't change the fact that you broke it. You have to pay the price. Ignorance is not an excuse."

True , but the police officer has a much more defined set of rules and circumstances that determine your guilt 100 % most of the time.......that or they saw you break the law.

Neither of which applies to this tire fiasco........nobody saw them......they deny it and the testing policy.....and it's possible that the tires could have been tainted completely without their knowledge in shipping ,manufacturing,etc.......

I agree with your theory of ignorance is no excuse..........there is a difference in not knowing the law, and not knowing your buddy dropped his weed under your seat that you couldn't have possibly known about.

[Barbecueboy]

If you can't prove a delivered tire was illegal. Then how can you prove that the manufacturer made/delivered you an illegal tire????
By the benchmark silly.......they can have it sent to the blue ridge labs.......oh wait?

[Barbecueboy]

Cant be leave I am with turnleft on this, But hes right, If they cant prove that they were given a Clean tire, Then UMP cant prove that it was not clean be for they got it......

Oh y'all stop it.......husker says I'm the only one on the planet that has a problem with the tire rule.

Just ask her.

[huskerdirt]

Oh y'all stop it.......husker says I'm the only one on the planet that has a problem with the tire rule.

Just ask her.

Nope.. Didn't say that. I said you are the only reason this topic is 8 pages long. Just look how many times you posted in this thread. Never once referenced the tire rule at all in my post. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[blncfn57]

Oh y'all stop it.......husker says I'm the only one on the planet that has a problem with the tire rule.

Just ask her.

yea, now hoosier let 5 tires leave their factory wrong. lol I have to bow out of this conversation as the level of common sense has sunk to an all time low. 5 tires were wrong.... its not a process problem, it wasn't a distribution problem...... it was an issue of the racers having at least a 75% chance of not getting caught, but they did.

[Cardirt0]

Here is something to think about... I have seen a driver go get a tire and say it needs too be at 78in in to be the right stager.. so its at 77in so they pump it up to 90 pounds of air ... gave it 20 min then drop it to 8 pounds were they start the race at if it is 78 in they go with it, if it dont they go get a new tire and do it all over agen....Tires is a art you may run a smaller tire on the left to get the right Stager.. One night you may want 3in stager the next you may want 6in stager...This makes tire more EX$ cause it may take 3 tires too get the one you want.....Then you have too hope they say its Clean Bull$hit.....

[Cardirt0]

Here how you stop this 10 20 30 40 Use all 4 and then you dont need to dope them.......Why dope a tire to a 30 if you can buy one......

[huskerdirt]

yea, now hoosier let 5 tires leave their factory wrong. lol I have to bow out of this conversation as the level of common sense has sunk to an all time low. 5 tires were wrong.... its not a process problem, it wasn't a distribution problem...... it was an issue of the racers having at least a 75% chance of not getting caught, but they did.

People refuse to believe that those guys legimately got caught. Whether it was unintentional or not. They still got caught. 2 of them have a track record of being tire dopers. If people honestly think that the tire could've been chemically altered by any other way than the actual process of doing it. Sadly that's not the case. Tire doping is a process that occurs before they even get the track.

As Jim Moon says.... 7 ounces gets you caught, 6 ounces you are good.

[Cardirt0]

People refuse to believe that those guys legimately got caught. Whether it was unintentional or not. They still got caught. 2 of them have a track record of being tire dopers. If people honestly think that the tire could've been chemically altered by any other way than the actual process of doing it. Sadly that's not the case. Tire doping is a process that occurs before they even get the track.

As Jim Moon says.... 7 ounces gets you caught, 6 ounces you are good.
Use to unload the car.. Its all dirty, I spray it down with a cleaner and let it sit a hour. Were at a Red clay track so its all stained so I spray it down good ... Come back and wash it off with the power washer.. Will I just Doped the Tires......

[huskerdirt]

Use to unload the car.. Its all dirty, I spray it down with a cleaner and let it sit a hour. Were at a Red clay track so its all stained so I spray it down good ... Come back and wash it off with the power washer.. Will I just Doped the Tires......

And most people take the tires off the car before washing.

[Cardirt0]

And most people take the tires off the car before washing.

Not if the tires are cover in red clay.. or you set them next too the car but you still use a Cleaner on them.. we did for years...I have washed the car and tires on and off over a 100 times.. used Cleaner on both every time......
Or you have 1 hour to clean the car cause you heading out to race sat after a fri night...

[vande07]

True , but the police officer has a much more defined set of rules and circumstances that determine your guilt 100 % most of the time.......that or they saw you break the law.

Neither of which applies to this tire fiasco........nobody saw them......they deny it and the testing policy.....and it's possible that the tires could have been tainted completely without their knowledge in shipping ,manufacturing,etc.......

I agree with your theory of ignorance is no excuse..........there is a difference in not knowing the law, and not knowing your buddy dropped his weed under your seat that you couldn't have possibly known about.

The tire rule is pretty defined; No altering of tire, must meet manufacturer provided benchmark by an independent laboratory.

Unless the teams (and sanctioning body) get to the point where the tires are in the possession of Hoosier, mounted by Hoosier and then immediately put on cars and the cars go on the track, there will always be some kind of question. But, that means racing will be much more expensive (payroll for people to take care of the tires at the track, teams will have to buy new tires for every event instead of using them for multiple events, and odds are they would go to one tire compound period and no tire size differences). That series already exists and it's called NASCAR....

[Cardirt0]

The tire rule is pretty defined; No altering of tire, must meet manufacturer provided benchmark by an independent laboratory.

Unless the teams (and sanctioning body) get to the point where the tires are in the possession of Hoosier, mounted by Hoosier and then immediately put on cars and the cars go on the track, there will always be some kind of question. But, that means racing will be much more expensive (payroll for people to take care of the tires at the track, teams will have to buy new tires for every event instead of using them for multiple events, and odds are they would go to one tire compound period and no tire size differences). That series already exists and it's called NASCAR....
Will if you want a rule like this then you will have too do it like them...The only tire that matters is the right rear.. for what hoosier charges may be they should mount it for the same price...

[Barbecueboy]

Nope.. Didn't say that. I said you are the only reason this topic is 8 pages long. Just look how many times you posted in this thread. Never once referenced the tire rule at all in my post. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I would advise you to do the same.......that and take a few reading comprehension classes at cornhusker tech.

[huskerdirt]

I would advise you to do the same.......that and take a few reading comprehension classes at cornhusker tech.

I'll save you a seat.

[Barbecueboy]

yea, now hoosier let 5 tires leave their factory wrong. lol I have to bow out of this conversation as the level of common sense has sunk to an all time low. 5 tires were wrong.... its not a process problem, it wasn't a distribution problem...... it was an issue of the racers having at least a 75% chance of not getting caught, but they did.

Who said anything about it being implicitly Hoosiers fault?

You can small picture it any way you want too, but the process is messed up and the room for error as to indicate where the problem comes from ( other than the obvious) in the tire is huge.

Especially if you are going to imply a specific individual is a cheater.

As I said before.......this is far from over( the tire rule fiasco).....and when things start developing to support what I've been saying as to change, you will be the first to get a pm.

Deal?

[victorylane]

This process of checking tires is not complicated. Only a few people want to try to make it out to be rocket science. It's very simple. Take the sample, put it in a sealed package, send it to lab, lab tech opens and puts in machine and gets the results. It is not the lab, Hoosier, UMP, or anybody else's job to prove who altered the tire. If the tire was used on accused drivers car then they are DQ'ed. There is a benchmark it has to match and if it don't the lab says so. The lab does not say this driver is a cheater or that he himself altered the tire. They just say the tire did not match. These drivers broke a rule not a law.

No matter what tire checking process is used someone will say it is flawed. If they try to improve the one they are using now or not is up to them. I am fine with the current one.

[D. Tidrow]

The tire rule is pretty defined; No altering of tire, must meet manufacturer provided benchmark by an independent laboratory.Unless the teams (and sanctioning body) get to the point where the tires are in the possession of Hoosier, mounted by Hoosier and then immediately put on cars and the cars go on the track, there will always be some kind of question. But, that means racing will be much more expensive (payroll for people to take care of the tires at the track, teams will have to buy new tires for every event instead of using them for multiple events, and odds are they would go to one tire compound period and no tire size differences). That series already exists and it's called NASCAR....First off this isnt NASCAR! Second it's the Process of testing. There is a better way. It's not the testing its the proceedings.

[Barbecueboy]

Use to unload the car.. Its all dirty, I spray it down with a cleaner and let it sit a hour. Were at a Red clay track so its all stained so I spray it down good ... Come back and wash it off with the power washer.. Will I just Doped the Tires......

Sure did...........

[Barbecueboy]

And most people take the tires off the car before washing.

But the ones that don't.........ok to just label them cheaters I guess.

[D. Tidrow]

I know how I feel about this tire doping bs. There is facts and bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word), like I said in past posts. I know for a fact that those I know and let me remind certain (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)s that never met us. Accused us of tire doping. These same people may be posting, but they know (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word).

[cgrace]

ijust wish they could check before the race not after

[D. Tidrow]

I know how I feel about this tire doping bs. There is facts and bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word), like I said in past posts. I know for a fact that those I know and let me remind certain (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)s that never met us. Accused us of tire doping. These same people may be posting, but they know (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word).This is nothing to take away from bbqboy, I think it's great to call these false idols out.

[D. Tidrow]

This is nothing to take away from bbqboy, I think it's great to call these false idols out.Now how do you feel about my favorite band DOWN?

[Car Biz]

Not if the tires are cover in red clay.. or you set them next too the car but you still use a Cleaner on them.. we did for years...I have washed the car and tires on and off over a 100 times.. used Cleaner on both every time......
Or you have 1 hour to clean the car cause you heading out to race sat after a fri night...

+1 I bet I doped tires to and didn't even know it. We used orange solve and g900 to get all mud of the cars and tires. That orange stuff was the only thing that took the black streaks off the hauler. Hell maybe we also gained two tenths qualifying too樂

[Barbecueboy]

The tire rule is pretty defined; No altering of tire, must meet manufacturer provided benchmark by an independent laboratory.

Unless the teams (and sanctioning body) get to the point where the tires are in the possession of Hoosier, mounted by Hoosier and then immediately put on cars and the cars go on the track, there will always be some kind of question. But, that means racing will be much more expensive (payroll for people to take care of the tires at the track, teams will have to buy new tires for every event instead of using them for multiple events, and odds are they would go to one tire compound period and no tire size differences). That series already exists and it's called NASCAR....
That's one way of doing it.........and your right, it would be expensive......but there are others that have been mentioned that are a much more plausible example.

I just want to clear this up once and for all.........I know what the rules say......I also know that people dope tires and do other nefarious stuff to their cars in an effort to cheat.
I am not nor have I ever said that I'm naive to any of that stuff going on........what my issue is with all of this is that there is big room for a list of doubt and what ifs when it comes to tires.

And if you are going to call somebody out on something then you better be dam sure you are doing it right.........it's not like stuffing a camera down the intake or doing a pump test where you can see right away if someone is cheating in a certain class.

Do I think that some of those drivers at the dream pushed the envelope and got caught.....yep.

Do I think all 5 of them did? No way in hell.

The tire rule itself .........it's pretty clear what it says and what is allowed, that part is definitely cut and dry or black and white.
You just can't have a rule that has so many what ifs in the scenario.........and then be so certain in the results to where you slander a guys name and the way he makes his living if you turn out to be wrong.

What if the tire comes into contact with something in shipping from Hoosier.....from the distributor( who has multiple contaminants around at any given time in proximity to the tires if they are like most fuel/tire distributors.

What if it comes into contact with something in the pits somebody has dumped out last week.......ground into the tire on the track from another tainted tire that laid the rubber down.....was washed with the wrong detergent at the track or shop.

What if the tire company sent the wrong benchmark to the testers.......

What if somebody like a Scott Autry were never allowed to appeal some bad info that was sent to blue ridge labs by the tire manufacturer.

What if the collector of the sample had something on his hands or body could have gotten on the tire.......( do you or any of us really know what will set off a tire as hot , other than the obvious)

What if the measuring instruments at the only lab they use aren't cleaned , purged or maintained properly?

What if you have someone who is less than ethical in the mix and just has a hard on for somebody.......it's not like the results are published with what was wrong with the tire and what they found or didn't find in it............did not meet benchmark could mean multiple things.......and like in Scott autrys case, it meant appeal it , get some people involved that knew better and then go collect 30k after the mistake was discovered.

All the above are unlikely ( except for the Autry example), but they are all very possible and I think it's just wrong to hang that dirty rotten cheater label on someone without being 100% sure.

I guess it's just me?

[Barbecueboy]

This process of checking tires is not complicated. Only a few people want to try to make it out to be rocket science. It's very simple. Take the sample, put it in a sealed package, send it to lab, lab tech opens and puts in machine and gets the results. It is not the lab, Hoosier, UMP, or anybody else's job to prove who altered the tire. If the tire was used on accused drivers car then they are DQ'ed. There is a benchmark it has to match and if it don't the lab says so. The lab does not say this driver is a cheater or that he himself altered the tire. They just say the tire did not match. These drivers broke a rule not a law.

No matter what tire checking process is used someone will say it is flawed. If they try to improve the one they are using now or not is up to them. I am fine with the current one.

Do they wear gloves every time........where does the sample go after its taken,does it go right away or does it sit around in the trailer or in some bodies glovebox until they decide to mail it in?
Is it possible that the evidence bags are contaminated? Are they kept sterile at all times?where are they stored and or purchased at?

Are the spectrometers at the lab purged and cleaned from the previous samples that have been tested in it?

The mechanics of it are exactly like you say...........the science of it is a little more complicated.

I will never ever subscribe to the theory that all racers are cheaters like the players in this debate have indicated.............it's just not true.

[Barbecueboy]

ijust wish they could check before the race not after

They can, but that would require tweeking the system a little bit..........it's a suggestion that has been discussed over the years.

[ClampedUp]

To the guy that think waivers are the legal end all be all I suggest you ask the WoO how that waiver protected them when Doug Wolfgang took them to task after his accident and won big, or ask Lernerville Speedway how that waiver held up in court when they DQ'd a driver for being light on the scales after winning and he took them to task and won, and various other tracks and sanctions both local and national who have also lost even though that "waiver" was signed.

[Cardirt0]

To the guy that think waivers are the legal end all be all I suggest you ask the WoO how that waiver protected them when Doug Wolfgang took them to task after his accident and won big, or ask Lernerville Speedway how that waiver held up in court when they DQ'd a driver for being light on the scales after winning and he took them to task and won, and various other tracks and sanctions both local and national who have also lost even though that "waiver" was signed.

Wolfgang was My Driver when i use too go to Sprint races .. They said he had NO change too win ... And he Cleaned there Clocks...He more won on that there was not good enuff Fire eq.. at the track to be safe.. But the waiver, Was not close too stop him cleaning there Clock...

[dirtdobber45]

I don't think World Racing group, really cares who doped the tires. You can dope thousands of tires, but until you race on them, you have broken no rules. They only care if the benchmark was solid and that these tires didn't match that benchmark. End of story. Black and white. Not knowing the tires where doped is not a measure of innocents, just a measure of ignorance.As it has been stated if ever tom d1ck and harry have been in contact with that tire before a team gets them how does the team know what has been done to that tire? Are teams suppose to take samples and send them off before they use that tire? Or are teams going to have to buy their on spectrometer and test them theirselves before they race them? That would be ignorance. And the cost...wow no little team would survive

[dirtdobber45]

And obtw...all you bleeding hearts that are on here saying "they should confess" let me tell what a Senator once told me...Deny deny deny any wrong doing and if theres pictures involved...deny it even more!!! LMAO

[Barbecueboy]

I'll save you a seat.

I'll drive , you can have the seat on the shortbus all to yourself......like normal.

[Barbecueboy]

To the guy that think waivers are the legal end all be all I suggest you ask the WoO how that waiver protected them when Doug Wolfgang took them to task after his accident and won big, or ask Lernerville Speedway how that waiver held up in court when they DQ'd a driver for being light on the scales after winning and he took them to task and won, and various other tracks and sanctions both local and national who have also lost even though that "waiver" was signed.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....you're going to wake the chronically ignorant adult tooth fairy recipients.

And their pet unicorns too!!!!

[Snake X3]

And obtw...all you bleeding hearts that are on here saying "they should confess" let me tell what a Senator once told me...Deny deny deny any wrong doing and if theres pictures involved...deny it even more!!! LMAO

Bill Clinton was a Governor. They don't have pictures on Hillary yet. ;)

[Barbecueboy]

Bill Clinton was a Governor. They don't have pictures on Hillary yet. ;)

She looks like the part of the Polaroid you tear off????

[dirtdobber45]

Bill Clinton was a Governor. They don't have pictures on Hillary yet. ;)LMAO LMAO I hope they dont ever have any pics of her...scary LMAO

[dirtdobber45]

I wouldnt put her pic in my garden to scare off the crows...mite kill everything I got planted lol

[plunks7]

This process of checking tires is not complicated. Only a few people want to try to make it out to be rocket science. It's very simple. Take the sample, put it in a sealed package, send it to lab, lab tech opens and puts in machine and gets the results. It is not the lab, Hoosier, UMP, or anybody else's job to prove who altered the tire. If the tire was used on accused drivers car then they are DQ'ed. There is a benchmark it has to match and if it don't the lab says so. The lab does not say this driver is a cheater or that he himself altered the tire. They just say the tire did not match. These drivers broke a rule not a law.

No matter what tire checking process is used someone will say it is flawed. If they try to improve the one they are using now or not is up to them. I am fine with the current one.

Then why in the hell don't they ( WOO, UMP and LOLMS) have a traveling LAB. Find out that night!!! Now that would be SIMPLE.

[Cardirt0]

Then why in the hell don't they ( WOO, UMP and LOLMS) have a traveling LAB. Find out that night!!! Now that would be SIMPLE.

Now why would they do something that would work.....

[a25rjr]

She looks like the part of the Polaroid you tear off????

Where do I send the bill?

You just caused me to mess up my keyboard! LOL

[old fan]

more like used toilet paper , but yeah that was a good one

[hausman]

BB Boy - on behalf of almost all of us get off 4M...this world has plenty of know it alls...

[Barbecueboy]

Where do I send the bill?

You just caused me to mess up my keyboard! LOL

Wish I could take the credit man.......that's a Fred G Sanford original........it just seemed to fit.

The G stands for ...........GET the tire nonsense figured out FOOLS........btw.

[hausman]

here comes a great and really smart reply...ready?

[blncfn57]

They can, but that would require tweeking the system a little bit..........it's a suggestion that has been discussed over the years.

You guys realize that these chemicals are, for the lack of a better word, cooked into the tire? This is t some spray on Magic tire dope. Not to mention that it has been said that something is missing from the 5 tires that were deemed illegal. What do you suppose Sam could have on his hands to make a chemical disappear from a tires? I would follow along if there was a chemical found on them that shouldn't be, but there wasn't, there was something missing. You don't spill something on a tire and make part of the tires chemical makeup disappear Maybe they all thought they were good to go since they wouldn't find anything "added" idk.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

And obtw...all you bleeding hearts that are on here saying "they should confess" let me tell what a Senator once told me...Deny deny deny any wrong doing and if theres pictures involved...deny it even more!!! LMAO

Sounds like MOST, NOT ALL bloomer fans.

[hausman]

Cmon Genius..

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

You guys realize that these chemicals are, for the lack of a better word, cooked into the tire? This is t some spray on Magic tire dope. Not to mention that it has been said that something is missing from the 5 tires that were deemed illegal. What do you suppose Sam could have on his hands to make a chemical disappear from a tires? I would follow along if there was a chemical found on them that shouldn't be, but there wasn't, there was something missing. You don't spill something on a tire and make part of the tires chemical makeup disappear Maybe they all thought they were good to go since they wouldn't find anything "added" idk.

There ya have it. Thats there loop hole nothing was added so how could they b doping!

[hausman]

So how are tires tested so that a conspiracy doesn't become a result?

[hausman]

BBQ has the answer...no doubt

[victorylane]

checking them at the track would be great but then somebody would cry after they were caught because it wasn't sent to a lab. lol

K. Rumley had a pic on twitter of the same piece of equipment(spectrometer) they use at the labs and it was for sale on ebay for I think $5000. He was hinting at each series having their own with them at each event.

[Barbecueboy]

BB Boy - on behalf of almost all of us get off 4M...this world has plenty of know it alls...

And not a single one of them that can figure out with certainty how to deal with super late model tires.

So you speak FOR most of the people eh?............do they know?

[hausman]

If tires could be tested at the track right after race, and multiple teams see the test, its better than what we have now...

[hausman]

BBQ - go play with yourself..

[Barbecueboy]

You guys realize that these chemicals are, for the lack of a better word, cooked into the tire? This is t some spray on Magic tire dope. Not to mention that it has been said that something is missing from the 5 tires that were deemed illegal. What do you suppose Sam could have on his hands to make a chemical disappear from a tires? I would follow along if there was a chemical found on them that shouldn't be, but there wasn't, there was something missing. You don't spill something on a tire and make part of the tires chemical makeup disappear Maybe they all thought they were good to go since they wouldn't find anything "added" idk.

So there was something missing from all 5 tires you say??????

Strange.......I don't recall hearing it or remember reading it that way.......but I'm sure I'm wrong and you have the story correct.

So since it's only the baked in stuff that the testing gets, everybody is cool to go back to washing their tires and sheet metal with whatever can be rinsed off in the pits with a garden hose......should be cool with everybody involved I would think.

thanks for schooling us on that, I really had no idea the testing had become that accurate and are now targeting the baked goods only.

Well hell man, why have you been keeping it a secret........if you knew that the whole time I would have given up the fight for accuracy months ago.

All the bastards are guilty as sin after your revelation.........no doubt about it.

[hausman]

BBQ - here's my point: Apply the golden rule when you post. We all have points of view and most of us love LM Racing. Opinions matter - all of ours. It's OK to disagree but don't trash everyone's view and be a jerk about it..get it?

[Barbecueboy]

So how are tires tested so that a conspiracy doesn't become a result?

Let's just trust them......like everybody does the testing results.

[Barbecueboy]

checking them at the track would be great but then somebody would cry after they were caught because it wasn't sent to a lab. lol

K. Rumley had a pic on twitter of the same piece of equipment(spectrometer) they use at the labs and it was for sale on ebay for I think $5000. He was hinting at each series having their own with them at each event.

Some crafty owners will..........

[Barbecueboy]

If tires could be tested at the track right after race, and multiple teams see the test, its better than what we have now...

Having an experienced shop class look at them is better than what we have now......

[Barbecueboy]

BBQ - go play with yourself..

But I'm having so much fun playing with you..........it wouldn't be the same.

[Bubstr]

As it has been stated if ever tom d1ck and harry have been in contact with that tire before a team gets them how does the team know what has been done to that tire? Are teams suppose to take samples and send them off before they use that tire? Or are teams going to have to buy their on spectrometer and test them theirselves before they race them? That would be ignorance. And the cost...wow no little team would survive

It just might be prudent to buy your tires from a trusted source to cut expenses then or you could take two samples at the time of purchase, seal them, giving one to the distributor in case he wants to appeal the testing if you got caught with a doped tire. There is your A B A litmus test. It's even cheap if you never get caught. It could be very expensive for the distributor if they where sued for lost potential earnings, but do you believe a distributor would sell doped tires.

This still wouldn't change the rule or enforcement.You run a cheated tire you get penalized. The Series is the enforcer, not the tire company.

[old fan]

bbq - go play with yourself..got a put a bone around his neck for a dog will play him poor puppy

[Barbecueboy]

BBQ - here's my point: Apply the golden rule when you post. We all have points of view and most of us love LM Racing. Opinions matter - all of ours. It's OK to disagree but don't trash everyone's view and be a jerk about it..get it?
If by everyone you mean oldfart50......huskerskirt.....mister 57.....and umpskirt then I'm sorry , but that will never happen unless it's a face to face meeting with a handshake and understanding or a rasslin match in the pits.

They have been the most vocal with me and my stance on this subject , I've done nothing more than reciprocate..............I'm just a bigger dik about it......sorry, that's my nature.......I get jumped on , I jump back.

And before you ask, yes.....I've been punched plenty of times in my life for it.

I completely understand what you are saying , but I think if you really look and are honest..........I'm only a dik to a very small handful of people on 4m......and more times than not , they are in that group above.

[DarrellGoode]

Any news from the Appeal?

[Barbecueboy]

It just might be prudent to buy your tires from a trusted source to cut expenses then or you could take two samples at the time of purchase, seal them, giving one to the distributor in case he wants to appeal the testing if you got caught with a doped tire. There is your A B A litmus test. It's even cheap if you never get caught. It could be very expensive for the distributor if they where sued for lost potential earnings, but do you believe a distributor would sell doped tires.

This still wouldn't change the rule or enforcement.You run a cheated tire you get penalized. The Series is the enforcer, not the tire company.

That's a pretty good idea bubster.........I don't believe any distributor would sell doped or tainted tires on purpose fwiw.

I also didn't believe a tire company would send the wrong benchmark to a lab either........but it happened.....by mistake.

The fact that people are thinking about it and talking about it like you just did is exactly what needs to occur......

[Barbecueboy]

got a put a bone around his neck for a dog will play him poor puppy

#sidewalkslivesmatter

[dirtdobber45]

It just might be prudent to buy your tires from a trusted source to cut expenses then or you could take two samples at the time of purchase, seal them, giving one to the distributor in case he wants to appeal the testing if you got caught with a doped tire. There is your A B A litmus test. It's even cheap if you never get caught. It could be very expensive for the distributor if they where sued for lost potential earnings, but do you believe a distributor would sell doped tires.This still wouldn't change the rule or enforcement.You run a cheated tire you get penalized. The Series is the enforcer, not the tire company.As usual youve missed the point....let me ask ya something...Do you know for certain how those tires get from Hoosier to the dealer to the team? I know for a fact that my local dealer gets them from UPS. And that was the point I was making. You dont know how many people have touched(or spilled something on it) that one tire before that team gets it. The only guarantee way that everybody can be 'innocent' before the team gets it is to wrap that tire up and send it in a sealed plastic box. Then its all on the team.

[dirtdobber45]

#sidewalkslivesmatterYouve gota stop my sides are hurting LMFAO LMFAO!!!!

[dirtdobber45]

got a put a bone around his neck for a dog will play him poor puppyAre you having a flash back to your childhood?

[dirtdobber45]

Sounds like MOST, NOT ALL bloomer fans.Idk about them...but Ive lived by that motto from then on lmao

[dirtdobber45]

And how big is that spectrometer for 5k? The last on I used was worth 10 times more. Dont think Id trust it unless a certified tech went over it and okd it

[plunks7]

And how big is that spectrometer for 5k? The last on I used was worth 10 times more. Dont think Id trust it unless a certified tech went over it and okd it

Well that counts out WOO and UMP. They don't have one of those peeps!!!

[fryefan]

It is only the sanctioning body's job to say whether or not a tire used in competition was legal or not. They can't give free passes because someone 3 handlings ago prepped it.... imagine the mess that would create. If a crate guy buys a truckload of used tires from someone that had been running prepped tires and they get caught with them, the tires are still illegal whether they "knew" or not.
I'm fairly certain, as big $ as the the sport has become, that there are people in business either offering tire prepping service or actually buying the tires themselves and pepping them to resell. That's why UMP/WRG can't go by anything other than if the tires used were legal or not.

I recently saw an add in a racing magazine where the seller stated that it was undetectable.

[fryefan]

It is pretty black and white actually. The only reason this came up was because of the final appeal aka a Hail Mary. A final appeal doesn't make it all of sudden any less black and white. If they couldn't prove there case in the first appeal. What makes you think it's gonna happen this time around?

Most of this topic is you arguing, blabbering out gibberish and contradicting yourself. Like when you said a "friend" told you they weren't taking tire samples. But when somebody said that wasn't the case. You stated that you are a "see for yourself kinda guy".

You and you only are the reason this topic is 8 pages. Not because people are talking about it. Child, please.

You are correct on all fronts.

[fryefan]

Last I checked, UMP, WRG, Lucas, MLRA, etc.,etc. don't sell or delivery any tires. They are the ones enforcing their rules (which is the tire samples must meet the benchmark provided by the tire manufacturer).

If this was Hoosier or Goodyear doing the testing, then yes I agree that they should be able to prove that they delivered a legal tire to the racer.

But, just like I was told when I was much younger by a police officer when I broke a law, "Just because you don't know you were breaking a law(rule) it doesn't change the fact that you broke it. You have to pay the price. Ignorance is not an excuse."

Good points. I think it is "denial", more than "ignorance".

[Barbecueboy]

Or just do something radical and run open..................according to you bastards that's what they are doing now anyway.....until they get caught.

[fryefan]

People refuse to believe that those guys legimately got caught. Whether it was unintentional or not. They still got caught. 2 of them have a track record of being tire dopers. If people honestly think that the tire could've been chemically altered by any other way than the actual process of doing it. Sadly that's not the case. Tire doping is a process that occurs before they even get the track.

As Jim Moon says.... 7 ounces gets you caught, 6 ounces you are good.

Excellent points.

[Barbecueboy]

Well that counts out WOO and UMP. They don't have one of those peeps!!!

But they got a cranky bastard with some evidence bags .............we're good.