woo schedule

[birky time]

have they always scheduled against the north/south?

[MRM]

No. In past years, Lanigan, TMac, and Richards have raced in it.

[huskerdirt]

have they always scheduled against the north/south?

This is the first they've done that.

In the past they've scheduled against I-80. This year that wasn't the case. I'm not reading anything into it because it can change next year.

[waaac77]

Dumb. Hope they don't make this a yearly thing

[MRM]

It's not really hurting Florence that much as it's rare for any WoO driver to race there.

[W2Racing09]

Dumb. Hope they don't make this a yearly thing

Both series schedule against each other all the time. If it wasn't the N/S 100 it would be the Topless 100 (as it used to be) and so on and so on. At a certain point in the LOLMDS schedule you really can't help but run against a big race.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[NormP]

It won't hurt the N/S 100 any more than guys not showing up for the Eldora races. If I had to choose between Florence and the WoO race, as a driver I'd be headed to Florence. 2500 just to start the big show, in addition to whatever else you might be able to earn in the Ralph Latham race.

[Dirt Frog]

If I was a woo driver I would be pissed about it !!!! Knocking them out of a chance at winning $80.000 !!!

[old fan]

Schmitt happens you can't get everybody happy

[Aluminium Block]

WoO thus year is really just a regional quality tour with a few drivers capable of running national events. They will have little effect on national events like the North South.

[GregA12]

It won't hurt the N/S 100 any more than guys not showing up for the Eldora races. If I had to choose between Florence and the WoO race, as a driver I'd be headed to Florence. 2500 just to start the big show, in addition to whatever else you might be able to earn in the Ralph Latham race.

Disappointed Woo scheduled against the North/South. I realize they have to do what they have to do to fill dates but I think a little more coordination between the 2 when it comes to the big shows wouldnt hurt.

[GregA12]

WoO thus year is really just a regional quality tour with a few drivers capable of running national events. They will have little effect on national events like the North South.

After watching Richards car and the body language on that thing...hard to imagine he wouldn't have been a top 3 favorite...especially if that track is dry as its known for.

[birky time]

I don't think lucas schedules against woo big shows do they?

[old fan]

t mac and lanigan have been the only 2 at the N/S 100

[birky time]

Eckert? didn't he run a few times

[edavis71]

If I was a woo driver I would be pissed about it !!!! Knocking them out of a chance at winning $80.000 !!!

Yeah stupid IMO from the Woo side. Not only hurts the Woo drivers from having a chance to win 80 grand but most importantly hurts the fans from not getting to see both national tours drivers together!!!

[Josh Bayko]

DLM racing is big enough to support both series this weekend. There will be plenty of quality cars at Florence, and there will be plenty of quality cars out east with the WoO. More drivers overall will be racing for good to great money. Four tracks will make good money instead of just one. This is good for the sport.

[00Hdmn]

DLM racing is big enough to support both series this weekend. There will be plenty of quality cars at Florence, and there will be plenty of quality cars out east with the WoO. More drivers overall will be racing for good to great money. Four tracks will make good money instead of just one. This is good for the sport.

Great post, I couldn't agree more.

[old fan]

why just woo side their are other sanctions that are taking quality drivers away from the event also

[W2Racing09]

It won't hurt the N/S 100 any more than guys not showing up for the Eldora races. If I had to choose between Florence and the WoO race, as a driver I'd be headed to Florence. 2500 just to start the big show, in addition to whatever else you might be able to earn in the Ralph Latham race.

The WoO drivers will be bringing home a minimum of $4000 with start money and tour driver bonuses between all four shows.

[W2Racing09]

WoO thus year is really just a regional quality tour with a few drivers capable of running national events. They will have little effect on national events like the North South.

Right, a regional quality series. Its really weird though, that more regional drivers (and local drivers!) have won LOLMDS races this season than WoO races (by quite a large margin in fact!)

WoO @ Duck River: Dale McDowell
WoO @ Tyler Co: Tim Dohm
WoO @ Cedar Lake (FANSFUND DASH): Jason Feger (Not sure if I should have counted this one, but it does not really matter either way)

WoO vs. Regional/Local Competition is 28/3 (10.7% of the time a Regional/Local Driver has won)

Lucas @ East Bay: Mason Zeigler
Lucas @ Boyds: Chris Madden
Lucas @ Hagerstown: Gregg Satterlee
Lucas @ Oshkosh: AJ Diemel
Lucas @ Smoky Mountain: Dale McDowell
Lucas @ Macon: Bobby Pierce

Lucas vs. Regional/Local Competition is 26/6 (23% of the time a Regional/Local Driver has won)

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

Doesn't Lucas run about 15/20% more races during the season?

Seems like there would be more opportunity for these non lucas guys have more opportunities to beat them .....especially at some of the " home track " opportunities the non Lucas guys run up against them at.

[Barbecueboy]

I would bet that Bobby has turned more laps at Macon.....madden more at Boyd's....satterlee more at Hagerstown and diemel at Oshkosh than any of their Lucas series travelers combined.

And it's just a guess.......and for what it's worth and technically your right, but referring to everyone of them as regional " David's" ( other than diemel) is a bit of a stretch..

[old fan]

bobby has said in interviews he has not run macon much at all in his career

[W2Racing09]

I would bet that Bobby has turned more laps at Macon.....madden more at Boyd's....satterlee more at Hagerstown and diemel at Oshkosh than any of their Lucas series travelers combined.

And it's just a guess.......and for what it's worth and technically your right, but referring to everyone of them as regional " David's" ( other than diemel) is a bit of a stretch..

I wouldn't know what else to call them -- The only drivers I've seen people consider to be National drivers are the ones who drive on a National Series (or Billy Moyer). You don't see Madden show up at a race in Nebraska, and you don't see Pierce racing shows in Georgia on a regular basis, they stick to their region for the most part and thus would be considered regional drivers. I'm not saying they couldn't be National drivers, just that they current are not. Regarding your comment about the amount of races, at this point in the season LOLMDS has run 32 events while WoO has run 31.

Regarding the amount of laps drivers have run on tracks, the same could certainly be said about Tim Dohm, and McDowell at DRRP. I'm sure both drivers have more laps at those tracks than most of the WoO field combined.

If you don't want to use the regional metric we could always check out how many WoO races were won by WoO regulars vs. how many LOLMDS races were won by LOLMDS regulars, which is also pretty bad looking for the LOLMDS.

LOLMDS regulars have won 22 of the 32 races held so far this season on the LOLMDS. (Win % is 68)

WoO regulars have won 26 of the 31 races held so far this season on the WoO. (Win % is 83)

I'm not trying to down the LOLMDS, but it is ridiculous for anyone to call the WoO a regional tour. It is currently home to one of the undisputed top 3 drivers in the country, and several other drivers who are top level competition as well. The LOLMDS might have a lot of big names, but based on their body of work this season some of them wouldn't even be close to the top 5 points in the WoO either.

[old fan]

if jd and bloomer went to woo what lucas oil look like as far as talent not name wise I am talking getting the job done and neither tours could be considered national tours look at their schedules

[W2Racing09]

if jd and bloomer went to woo what lucas oil look like as far as talent not name wise I am talking getting the job done and neither tours could be considered national tours look at their schedules

I sort of agree with the last part -- one of these tours needs to break out and head to the West Coast for a big swing. I think LOLMDS would have more success because of name recognition, but WRG/WoO does have a lot partnerships with tracks out there already because of the Sprints. I could see a 5-6 race swing early in the season (Maybe between GA/FL and the Illini for WoO or between GA/FL and the Icebreaker weekend for the LOLMDS.

There are some great tracks out there and Late Model racing is starting to gain some steam out there too. Honestly I think whichever tour makes it out there first with success will be considered the premier tour. They would be unlocking a huge new market for fans and they would also possibly attract some of the West Coast drivers to consider looking at the tour as an option for the season. Honestly it isn't too much more driver to go from Nebraska to the West Coast. A lot of drivers already head out to AZ so it's not like they are opposed to the idea.

Probably would need 3-4 $10,000 to win shows and at least a $20,000 to win show to make it worth it. Not impossible by any stretch.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

If you're smart enough to do the research, you can present the numbers to look how you want them to look....percentages especially........and you've done that.

He's only won 1 race out of 5........

He's won 20 percent of the races this year......

Which sounds better?


Percentages Es

[W2Racing09]

If you're smart enough to do the research, you can present the numbers to look how you want them to look....percentages especially........and you've done that.

He's only won 1 race out of 5........

He's won 20 percent of the races this year......

Which sounds better?


Percentages Es

I listed everything I said both ways (in percentage form, and "fraction" form). I didn't spin any numbers, everything I found was on the WoO and LOLMDS sites very obviously found in the schedule section of both. I find it troubling that people are so against the WoO being successful that when someone provides them with numbers that don't fit their narrative they immediately say that the numbers are doctored or somehow incorrect. You guys are starting to seem like Hillary supporters now!

[jog49]

I don't care about all the crap talking about the WoO Series. They are the series who sponsors the "Olympics of Dirt Racing" with the WoO Finals at Charlotte.....a not to be missed spectacle every year in the fall. Until Lucas Oil can top that, screw the Lucas Oil Series!

[bowler4life223]

4m has got to be the only place where people know everything, yet they really have no clue, who was the brainiac who said woo scheduled against the north/south? woo has run this weekend at delaware/potomac/winchester the last 3 years, same weekend did it occur that maybe lucas moved the north/south a weekend? i know for sure woo has always run this weekend

[birky time]

sorry guys didn't want everyone to get tore up from the floor up...just asked a ?

[bowler4life223]

Thurs. Aug. 13 Fulton Bank 50 Delaware International Speedway
Delmar, Del. Directions Josh Richards (5)
Fri. Aug. 14 Potomac Speedway
Budds Creek, Md. Directions Josh Richards (6)
Sat. Aug. 15 Winchester Speedway
Winchester, Va. Directions Rick Eckert (2) ,
this was last year, and last year the north/south was august 6/7/8 get your facts before you blast a series for changing dates when in fact it was lucas who changed dates

[birky time]

I think north south is always the 2nd weekend in aug.

[W2Racing09]

I think north south is always the 2nd weekend in aug.

The past two seasons the Mid Atlantic Swing for WoO has conflicted with the Topless 100. Regardless, if the WoO takes every weekend off when LOLMDS has a big race then they are not going to be having too many races.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Pennsboro23]

I wouldn't know what else to call them -- The only drivers I've seen people consider to be National drivers are the ones who drive on a National Series (or Billy Moyer). You don't see Madden show up at a race in Nebraska, and you don't see Pierce racing shows in Georgia on a regular basis, they stick to their region for the most part and thus would be considered regional drivers. I'm not saying they couldn't be National drivers, just that they current are not. Regarding your comment about the amount of races, at this point in the season LOLMDS has run 32 events while WoO has run 31.

Regarding the amount of laps drivers have run on tracks, the same could certainly be said about Tim Dohm, and McDowell at DRRP. I'm sure both drivers have more laps at those tracks than most of the WoO field combined.

If you don't want to use the regional metric we could always check out how many WoO races were won by WoO regulars vs. how many LOLMDS races were won by LOLMDS regulars, which is also pretty bad looking for the LOLMDS.

LOLMDS regulars have won 22 of the 32 races held so far this season on the LOLMDS. (Win % is 68)

WoO regulars have won 26 of the 31 races held so far this season on the WoO. (Win % is 83)

I'm not trying to down the LOLMDS, but it is ridiculous for anyone to call the WoO a regional tour. It is currently home to one of the undisputed top 3 drivers in the country, and several other drivers who are top level competition as well. The LOLMDS might have a lot of big names, but based on their body of work this season some of them wouldn't even be close to the top 5 points in the WoO either.


I disagree with your assessment on national/regional/local drivers. Madden, Moyer, McDowell, etc are most definitely national names/stars. Those guys hit the majority of the crown jewels, the big races in their area, such as Lucas/WoO. IMO, you do not have to run a tour to be considered a national driver. A regional driver are guys like Jared Hawkins, Tim Dohm, Jackie Boggs, just to name a few in my area. Those guys hit the national tours when they come close to their area but for the most part they try to run the 3-10,000 dollar shows around an area. You do not see them traveling 4-5 hours or more out of their comfort zone. Then of course you have your locals, for example. Some local drivers in my area are Derek Doll, Kyle Thomas, Tyler Carpenter etc. For the most part they run the same race tracks every weekend and you will see them occasionally run some regional stuff at tracks they're familiar with.

[W2Racing09]

I disagree with your assessment on national/regional/local drivers. Madden, Moyer, McDowell, etc are most definitely national names/stars. Those guys hit the majority of the crown jewels, the big races in their area, such as Lucas/WoO. IMO, you do not have to run a tour to be considered a national driver. A regional driver are guys like Jared Hawkins, Tim Dohm, Jackie Boggs, just to name a few in my area. Those guys hit the national tours when they come close to their area but for the most part they try to run the 3-10,000 dollar shows around an area. You do not see them traveling 4-5 hours or more out of their comfort zone. Then of course you have your locals, for example. Some local drivers in my area are Derek Doll, Kyle Thomas, Tyler Carpenter etc. For the most part they run the same race tracks every weekend and you will see them occasionally run some regional stuff at tracks they're familiar with.

Dale McDowell has raced outside of GA/FL/VA/AL/TN/NC/SC just a hand full of times all season. Those events all being in Ohio and PA (Dream, Buckeye and Firecracker). That being out of 30+ events.

Likewise, Chris Madden has unloaded just twice outside of those states (Dream and Buckeye).

Bobby Pierce races the truck series so I'm not sure if you want to count those events. If so he is a National Driver. When it comes to DLM races the only time Pierce has been outside of Mid-West is for the Winternationals at East Bay.

Mason Zeigler and Gregg Satterlee MIGHT meet your criteria of National driver because they do venture out a bit more, but I still wouldn't call them National drivers necessarily. In my opinion, if a driver is more likely to be at a race because you are in a certain region then they are a regional driver. Nobody is expecting Chris Madden to possibly show up when the Outlaws are in Grand Forks, ND, but both the Outlaws and the LOLMDS fully expect him when they are in Tennessee. The same can be said of McDowell. Both of these drivers are National caliber drivers, but they run a regional schedule and are thus regional drivers in my opinion.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[TackyTracker]

really the Latham race should have already been decided but it was a rain-out.. don't think it's fair to say Florence scheduled this race against WoO..

Also not many guys are going to make $$$ this w/e so I'm glad there is another option for driver's to make something

[plunks7]

The past two seasons the Mid Atlantic Swing for WoO has conflicted with the Topless 100. Regardless, if the WoO takes every weekend off when LOLMDS has a big race then they are not going to be having too many races.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Now this is something I like to hear!!!!! Not a fan of BOO WOO at all. Freshman, Sophomore class compared to LOLMDS. With the exception of a few Varsity. That will never leave their protective areas. Clanton should switch to bowling, they give out crying towels at every tournament. :) I would love to see Josh run Lucas with the upper classmen. I think he would do quite well. In fact it would not be surprising to see Josh win a championship with LOLMDS. By know means am I a Richards fan, But he sure can wheel a car.

[W2Racing09]

really the Latham race should have already been decided but it was a rain-out.. don't think it's fair to say Florence scheduled this race against WoO..

Also not many guys are going to make $$$ this w/e so I'm glad there is another option for driver's to make something

In the end I'm sure most of the Lucas guys are glad they scheduled against the each other. That means a LOLMDS driver has a chance to bring home $80k.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

I listed everything I said both ways (in percentage form, and "fraction" form). I didn't spin any numbers, everything I found was on the WoO and LOLMDS sites very obviously found in the schedule section of both. I find it troubling that people are so against the WoO being successful that when someone provides them with numbers that don't fit their narrative they immediately say that the numbers are doctored or somehow incorrect. You guys are starting to seem like Hillary supporters now!

I think you know exactly what I'm saying.......I could take the exact same info you have , add some percentages of my own ,present it in a different way and make it sound entirely different.

An example would be ( like everybody was trying to do last year with JD) ....back out the one guy that has an inordinate amount of those wins in woo and the percentages quickly go the other way.( if we are trying to compare series vs series and not racer to racer)

Not picking a beef with you personally , just saying it can be manipulated to look differently depending on the side you're on.
Pretty sure you picked up on that.

And fwiw.......I'm not a fan of woo for two reasons.....and neither are drivers.

[W2Racing09]

Now this is something I like to hear!!!!! Not a fan of BOO WOO at all. Freshman, Sophomore class compared to LOLMDS. With the exception of a few Varsity. That will never leave their protective areas. Clanton should switch to bowling, they give out crying towels at every tournament. :) I would love to see Josh run Lucas with the upper classmen. I think he would do quite well. In fact it would not be surprising to see Josh win a championship with LOLMDS. By know means am I a Richards fan, But he sure can wheel a car.

Please see post #25 in this thread.

The 7-12 place drivers on the LOLMDS has just five wins between them (Flinner, Francis, Owens, Pearson, O'Neal, Lanigan) and that includes three wins in Tucson by the CBR teams. That includes many regional and local race attempts. All this info is according to their websites. Between all six they have amassed a grand total of $47,000.00 in first place winnings, and that includes the Show-Me win that Owens lucked into.

Shane Clanton has won more races, and had more first place earnings than all six of those drivers combined this season. Racing against the same local/regional/national competitors that beat the LOLMDS 30% of the time.

In fact, Brian Shirley also has more race wins and first place earnings than all six of them combined as well.

Hell, Billy Moyer Jr has six race wins this season all by himself.

The point is, both tours have their fair share of "Sophomore Level Talent"

Thanks,
Jeff.

[plunks7]

In the end I'm sure most of the Lucas guys are glad they scheduled against the each other. That means a LOLMDS driver has a chance to bring home $80k.

Thanks,
Jeff.

That ranks right up their with BOO WOO at Cedar Lake. You know, take some drivers away that are running well. And the Best Late Model Driver ever in the Country. So BOO WOO could win one of their big money events. What's the real reason Josh didn't show up at I-80? How Dare he (Josh) ask for show-up money. WAFJ!!!!! Its a good thing I am not a promoter. I wouldn't give ANY driver show-up money.

[plunks7]

Please see post #25 in this thread.

The 7-12 place drivers on the LOLMDS has just five wins between them (Flinner, Francis, Owens, Pearson, O'Neal, Lanigan) and that includes three wins in Tucson by the CBR teams. That includes many regional and local race attempts. All this info is according to their websites. Between all six they have amassed a grand total of $47,000.00 in first place winnings, and that includes the Show-Me win that Owens lucked into.

Shane Clanton has won more races, and had more first place earnings than all six of those drivers combined this season. Racing against the same local/regional/national competitors that beat the LOLMDS 30% of the time.

In fact, Brian Shirley also has more race wins and first place earnings than all six of them combined as well.

Hell, Billy Moyer Jr has six race wins this season all by himself.

The point is, both tours have their fair share of "Sophomore Level Talent"

Thanks,
Jeff.

That just shows how much tougher it is to Win in LOLMDS. And when you have the future (LOL) Win 6 Just shows how WEAK the BOO WOO is!!!!!!!!

[W2Racing09]

I think you know exactly what I'm saying.......I could take the exact same info you have , add some percentages of my own ,present it in a different way and make it sound entirely different.

An example would be ( like everybody was trying to do last year with JD) ....back out the one guy that has an inordinate amount of those wins in woo and the percentages quickly go the other way.( if we are trying to compare series vs series and not racer to racer)

Not picking a beef with you personally , just saying it can be manipulated to look differently depending on the side you're on.
Pretty sure you picked up on that.

And fwiw.......I'm not a fan of woo for two reasons.....and neither are drivers.

Here are the stats you requested, but as I said I'm not making up the numbers here. They are factual and fair. I didn't remove Bloomquist on the LOLMDS ones just as I did not remove Richards on the WoO stats. Richards is part of the WoO so his stats should matter just as much as Tyler Erb or Eric Wells would.

LOLMDS races that Scott Bloomquist hasn't won, that were won by LOLMDS drivers: 13/32 (40%)

WoO races that Josh Richards hasn't won, that were won by WoO drivers: 12/31 (38%)

I'm still not seeing the clear cut difference in quality everyone seems to want to see, the series are at this point almost equal. Top LOLMDS drivers have won races with the WoO, top WoO drivers have won races with the LOLMDS. The bottom half of the WoO roster isn't all that much less competitive than the bottom half of the LOLMDS roster based on racing this season, and the top half is very close to equal and the top car is probably better or at least equal to the top LOLMDS car.

I don't see why everyone keeps wanting to think that one is so much better than the other, if the LOLMDS visits your local track, or you favorite driver runs on it then great that is your favorite tour but to try to diminish the level of competition on the other one is outright wrong. Both tours bring very stout fields of cars with them and obviously the fans and tracks are very happy with both as they continue to schedule them.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

That ranks right up their with BOO WOO at Cedar Lake. You know, drivers cheat and get suspended that were running well. And the Best Late Model Driver ever in the Country if you are counting races in the entire history of dirt late models and not just results from this season. So BOO WOO could win one of their big money events even with some of the best LOLMDS cars in the field including last years champion. What's the real reason Josh didn't show up at I-80? How Dare he (Josh) ask for show-up money. WAFJ!!!!! Its a good thing I am not a promoter. I wouldn't even be able to type a coherent press release so nobody would know to show up at my track.

Has Richards ever run at I-80 for the SDN? Does his family have an extremely successful business to run? Does he have a life outside of racing? You can ask him all these questions yourself in victory lane at a track near you soon enough I'm sure.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

Dale McDowell has raced outside of GA/FL/VA/AL/TN just a hand full of times all season. Those events all being in Ohio and PA (Dream, Buckeye and Firecracker). That being out of 30+ events.

Likewise, Chris Madden has unloaded just twice outside of those states (Dream and Buckeye).

Bobby Pierce races the truck series so I'm not sure if you want to count those events. If so he is a National Driver. When it comes to DLM races the only time Pierce has been outside of Mid-West is for the Winternationals at East Bay.

Mason Zeigler and Gregg Satterlee MIGHT meet your criteria of National driver because they do venture out a bit more, but I still wouldn't call them National drivers necessarily. In my opinion, if a driver is more likely to be at a race because you are in a certain region then they are a regional driver. Nobody is expecting Chris Madden to possibly show up when the Outlaws are in Grand Forks, ND, but both the Outlaws and the LOLMDS fully expect him when they are in Tennessee. The same can be said of McDowell. Both of these drivers are National caliber drivers, but they run a regional schedule and are thus regional drivers in my opinion.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Seems like I remember madden unloading in both North and South Carolina also this year.........is that not right?

[W2Racing09]

That just shows how much tougher it is to Win in LOLMDS. And when you have the future (LOL) Win 6 Just shows how WEAK the BOO WOO is!!!!!!!!

So it shows how weak the WoO is when the 7th place driver in WoO points (Moyer Jr) has more wins than the entire bottom half of the LOLMDS roster including the 7th place driver (along with 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th - Lanigan, O'Neal, Pearson, Owens, Francis, Flinner). Your logic is... non existent.

[W2Racing09]

Seems like I remember madden unloading in both North and South Carolina also this year.........is that not right?

I knew I was forgetting some more of the States in the South East region. My bad.

[plunks7]

Please see post #25 in this thread.


The point is, both tours have their fair share of "Sophomore Level Talent"

Thanks,
Jeff.

I do agree on this assessment. So to make it more interesting for the fans. Put the drivers in their category's that best fits them. Great racing with both. Level playing field all the way around. With the intent to move up not down.

[Barbecueboy]

Here are the stats you requested, but as I said I'm not making up the numbers here. They are factual and fair. I didn't remove Bloomquist on the LOLMDS ones just as I did not remove Richards on the WoO stats. Richards is part of the WoO so his stats should matter just as much as Tyler Erb or Eric Wells would.

LOLMDS races that Scott Bloomquist hasn't won, that were won by LOLMDS drivers: 13/32 (40%)

WoO races that Josh Richards hasn't won, that were won by WoO drivers: 12/31 (38%)

I'm still not seeing the clear cut difference in quality everyone seems to want to see, the series are at this point almost equal. Top LOLMDS drivers have won races with the WoO, top WoO drivers have won races with the LOLMDS. The bottom half of the WoO roster isn't all that much less competitive than the bottom half of the LOLMDS roster based on racing this season, and the top half is very close to equal and the top car is probably better or at least equal to the top LOLMDS car.

I don't see why everyone keeps wanting to think that one is so much better than the other, if the LOLMDS visits your local track, or you favorite driver runs on it then great that is your favorite tour but to try to diminish the level of competition on the other one is outright wrong. Both tours bring very stout fields of cars with them and obviously the fans and tracks are very happy with both as they continue to schedule them.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Just go position by position......top ten in each series.....match them up head to head

who is better this year?
Josh versus bloomer......Josh
Davenport versus Clanton ( I think).....Davenport.

Etc.etc.etc.

That's how I look at it when I try and determine who has the deeper field of talent.

And fwiw......I never requested any stats from you......I'm pretty good at finding them on my own, but thanks.

[W2Racing09]

I do agree on this assessment. So to make it more interesting for the fans. Put the drivers in their category's that best fits them. Great racing with both. Level playing field all the way around. With the intent to move up not down.

Complete with less money to the top teams that need it most. Do you think instead of paying $10,000 to win promoters will just at the chance to pay $20,000 to win and double the purse all the way back for a basic event? No. The stands are already full when each tour visits. There is no additional reward. I know I'm not willing to go from paying $30 for a WoO race to $60 for a Combined Series event featuring the same amount of racing with a few more big names thrown in. Not only that but with both tours I get separate chances to see top level talent come to my area that I wouldn't otherwise see if it were just one tour.

I couldn't go to Florence this weekend, but I can go to Potomac and Winchester to see the WoO instead. The weekend of the Pittsburgher I'll be at PPMS to watch the LOLMDS, and Labor Day weekend I'll be at Selinsgrove rather than having to drive all the way to WV. I like it that way a lot better because I see a lot more National level racing.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

I knew I was forgetting some more of the States in the South East region. My bad.

Like I said earlier......depending on what side of the fence you're on and what kind of point you're trying to make, you can make the numbers look any way you want to .

Even if it is an honest mistake like you just made.......

[Barbecueboy]

So it shows how weak the WoO is when the 7th place driver in WoO points (Moyer Jr) has more wins than the entire bottom half of the LOLMDS roster including the 7th place driver (along with 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th - Lanigan, O'Neal, Pearson, Owens, Francis, Flinner). Your logic is... non existent.

More wins against a less talented field........it's much easier to win against a field that isn't as deep.

So yes, his point absolutely exists.

And when I say less talented , that means in comparison to the other series......those woo guys have plenty of talent.....sometimes the nl is better than the al.....the afc is better than the nfc.....this year and in the last few, Lucas has been deeper than woo.

It's just a cycle.......one that I like.

[W2Racing09]

Just go position by position......top ten in each series.....match them up head to head

who is better this year?
Josh versus bloomer......Josh
Davenport versus Clanton ( I think).....Davenport.

Etc.etc.etc.

That's how I look at it when I try and determine who has the deeper field of talent.

And fwiw......I never requested any stats from you......I'm pretty good at finding them on my own, but thanks.

Based solely on results this year..

Richards/Bloomquist: Richards
Clanton/Davenport: Davenport
Eckert/Sheppard: I'll always choose Rocket over Longhorn, although this one is pretty close (Sheppard)
Landers/Shirley: Shirley
McCreadie/Overton: Overton (I don't even think T-Mac has a win, Overton has been racy a bunch and has a win with Bloomquist and Davenport both in the field along with Richards)
Erb/Casebolt: Erb, although this one would be closer without that dream win and if Casebolt ever has some luck. He's been fast a lot.
Moyer Jr/Lanigan: This year? Moyer Jr
Heckenast/O'Neal: This year? It's close... really close they have both not been very good so I'll go solely based on the amount of wins and give the nod to O'Neal.
Chub/Pearson: Which one is better? Neither. If I had to pick.. Pearson.
Eric Wells/Jimmy Owens: This one is tough, lately I would definitely say Eric Wells but Owens did win the Show Me, so I'll go with Owens.
Bagley/Francis: Neither (Probably Francis)
Junghans/Flinner: Junghans

Final Score: 5 to 7 LOLMDS.

[W2Racing09]

Like I said earlier......depending on what side of the fence you're on and what kind of point you're trying to make, you can make the numbers look any way you want to .

Even if it is an honest mistake like you just made.......

Do you disagree that SC and NC are not part of the Southeast?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[plunks7]

Complete with less money to the top teams that need it most. Do you think instead of paying $10,000 to win promoters will just at the chance to pay $20,000 to win and double the purse all the way back for a basic event? No. The stands are already full when each tour visits. There is no additional reward. I know I'm not willing to go from paying $30 for a WoO race to $60 for a Combined Series event featuring the same amount of racing with a few more big names thrown in. Not only that but with both tours I get separate chances to see top level talent come to my area that I wouldn't otherwise see if it were just one tour.

I couldn't go to Florence this weekend, but I can go to Potomac and Winchester to see the WoO instead. The weekend of the Pittsburgher I'll be at PPMS to watch the LOLMDS, and Labor Day weekend I'll be at Selinsgrove rather than having to drive all the way to WV. I like it that way a lot better because I see a lot more National level racing.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Your first sentence is way out of line. Are you serious? First and fore most, your bigger teams don't need the money MORE!!!!!! And I never mentioned once about paying for a double show. You of all people should have figured out what I said! It would be 2 different series. And both would make better racing for the fans.

[W2Racing09]

More wins against a less talented field........it's much easier to win against a field that isn't as deep.

So yes, his point absolutely exists.

And when I say less talented , that means in comparison to the other series......those woo guys have plenty of talent.....sometimes the nl is better than the al.....the afc is better than the nfc.....this year and in the last few, Lucas has been deeper than woo.

It's just a cycle.......one that I like.

None of Moyer Jr's wins were with the WoO (unless you count UMP at Volusia which is a Lucas+WoO type of field). If you were only counting touring wins then those bottom six on the LOLMDS would only have two wins combined (Lanigan and Owens each have one).

[Barbecueboy]

Based solely on results this year..

Richards/Bloomquist: Richards
Clanton/Davenport: Davenport
Eckert/Sheppard: I'll always choose Rocket over Longhorn, although this one is pretty close (Sheppard)
Landers/Shirley: Shirley
McCreadie/Overton: Overton (I don't even think T-Mac has a win, Overton has been racy a bunch and has a win with Bloomquist and Davenport both in the field along with Richards)
Erb/Casebolt: Erb, although this one would be closer without that dream win and if Casebolt ever has some luck. He's been fast a lot.
Moyer Jr/Lanigan: This year? Moyer Jr
Heckenast/O'Neal: This year? It's close... really close they have both not been very good so I'll go solely based on the amount of wins and give the nod to O'Neal.
Chub/Pearson: Which one is better? Neither. If I had to pick.. Pearson.
Eric Wells/Jimmy Owens: This one is tough, lately I would definitely say Eric Wells but Owens did win the Show Me, so I'll go with Owens.
Bagley/Francis: Neither (Probably Francis)
Junghans/Flinner: Junghans

Final Score: 5 to 7 LOLMDS.it can't really be 5 to 7 if you are counting the top 10 only.......but, I guess it can be if you are making a point that Lucas is better.

My top ten would look closer to 7/3 Lucas.......with a few that are very close.

[Barbecueboy]

None of Moyer Jr's wins were with the WoO (unless you count UMP at Volusia which is a Lucas+WoO type of field). If you were only counting touring wins then those bottom six on the LOLMDS would only have two wins combined (Lanigan and Owens each have one).

You are making my argument of " massaging the numbers to fit your stance" very well for me........just sayin

[W2Racing09]

Your first sentence is way out of line. Are you serious? First and fore most, your bigger teams don't need the money MORE!!!!!! And I never mentioned once about paying for a double show. You of all people should have figured out what I said! It would be 2 different series. And both would make better racing for the fans.

The top teams who make their living off racing, the bottom teams that would be running your newly created starter series tend to be the ones who don't really need it as much (a point underlined by the fact that they continue to exist now, presumably far into the red). Many of those drivers have backers who are extremely loaded or very rich families.

Its drivers like Bloomquist, Owens, Davenport, Clanton, Shirley, etc. who make their living being race car drivers and don't have a big side business to support their operation with.

If you think the drivers would all run the same series continuously with double the amount of competition as before with the same amount of money on the line you are crazy. How many times do you think someone like Jonathan Davenport or Shane Clanton are going to continue to unload their cars getting 2-3 wins per season and going thousands of dollars into the red to finish 4th or 5th in points paying $25,000? If you had all the drivers on one series you would certainly need increased payouts (At the very least $15,000 to win, $10,000 for 2nd, $7,500 for 3rd and $1,200 to start before series bonus money).

[W2Racing09]

it can't really be 5 to 7 if you are counting the top 10 only.......but, I guess it can be if you are making a point that Lucas is better.

My top ten would look closer to 7/3 Lucas.......with a few that are very close.

Why would it be top 10 only if each series has 12 or more guys following?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[plunks7]

None of Moyer Jr's wins were with the WoO (unless you count UMP at Volusia which is a Lucas+WoO type of field). If you were only counting touring wins then those bottom six on the LOLMDS would only have two wins combined (Lanigan and Owens each have one).

LMFAO, C'MON man. Did he pull a page or 2 out of his Dads book? :) Okay we had our say. We know how each other feel about each series. Lets move on!!!! :)

[W2Racing09]

You are making my argument of " massaging the numbers to fit your stance" very well for me........just sayin

What? I counted the 3 Tucson wins for the CBR cars as well? If I wanted to "massage the numbers" I would have responded to him saying Clanton is a hack by saying that 7th to 12th in points on the LOLMDS has 2 wins total and Clanton has 7 which is exactly 3.5 time more wins than the entire bottom half of the "very deep" LOLMDS roster. Instead I said the bottom half of the LOLMDS series has 5 total wins (including a bunch of regional and local starts as stated in plain text) and compared that to several WoO drivers who have more by themselves (some WoO, some not just like the LOLMDS drivers in the selection)

[W2Racing09]

LMFAO, C'MON man. Did he pull a page or 2 out of his Dads book? :) Okay we had our say. We know how each other feel about each series. Lets move on!!!! :)

If the book is entitled "Running a profitable racing operation" then yes probably he did.

I don't dislike LOLMDS is the difference, I am a big fan of both series and have favorites on both series (Obviously Richards is my over all favorite driver). I am happy to have both around and think they are both extremely good for the sport.

In fact next time I'm at the track I'll have to buy me a Jimmy Owens T-Shirt now that some changes to his program have been announced.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Barbecueboy]

Do you disagree that SC and NC are not part of the Southeast?

Thanks,
Jeff.

No I'm saying that you listed states in the southeast that he unloaded in......you also listed a couple states outside the southeast he unloaded in.

I'm just saying that because you were trying to make such a strong point , that you made a error and forgot a few states he had unloaded in .

And were pretty matter of fact about it.......that's all.

[KAOS]

I sort of agree with the last part -- one of these tours needs to break out and head to the West Coast for a big swing. I think LOLMDS would have more success because of name recognition, but WRG/WoO does have a lot partnerships with tracks out there already because of the Sprints. I could see a 5-6 race swing early in the season (Maybe between GA/FL and the Illini for WoO or between GA/FL and the Icebreaker weekend for the LOLMDS.There are some great tracks out there and Late Model racing is starting to gain some steam out there too. Honestly I think whichever tour makes it out there first with success will be considered the premier tour. They would be unlocking a huge new market for fans and they would also possibly attract some of the West Coast drivers to consider looking at the tour as an option for the season. Honestly it isn't too much more driver to go from Nebraska to the West Coast. A lot of drivers already head out to AZ so it's not like they are opposed to the idea.Probably would need 3-4 $10,000 to win shows and at least a $20,000 to win show to make it worth it. Not impossible by any stretch.Thanks,Jeff.I 80 is 23hrs or 1500+ miles away from Cali. Also I believe I 80 is closer to East Bay than it is to any Cali track

[plunks7]

If you think the drivers would all run the same series continuously with double the amount of competition as before with the same amount of money on the line you are crazy. How many times do you think someone like Jonathan Davenport or Shane Clanton are going to continue to unload their cars getting 2-3 wins per season and going thousands of dollars into the red to finish 4th or 5th in points paying $25,000? If you had all the drivers on one series you would certainly need increased payouts (At the very least $15,000 to win, $10,000 for 2nd, $7,500 for 3rd and $1,200 to start before series bonus money).

This is exactly what I would like to see. Bring your A game every night!! Why is it you think it is bad that a so-called top team goes in the red? When their are many other Teams (under funded) that race full time and its okay.

Just remember, if it is a high paying race 50.000.00 at the top. You will get the best their is for that one spot. And drops off a lot through out the field. You have less cars. Now take 30.000.00 at the top with it paying more at the lower end. A lot more cars. Which race, if you had to choose would you go to?

[Barbecueboy]

If the book is entitled "Running a profitable racing operation" then yes probably he did.

I don't dislike LOLMDS is the difference, I am a big fan of both series and have favorites on both series (Obviously Richards is my over all favorite driver). I am happy to have both around and think they are both extremely good for the sport.

In fact next time I'm at the track I'll have to buy me a Jimmy Owens T-Shirt now that some changes to his program have been announced.

Thanks,
Jeff.

So because he switches to your favorite chassis builder, do you still refer to him as a cheater?

And before you answer, go back to a couple of those tire threads to refresh on what you said.

And I'm a jimmy fan fwiw........I like him a lot even though he does drive a chassis that's designed by somebody I don't.

[W2Racing09]

I 80 is 23hrs or 1500+ miles away from Cali. Also I believe I 80 is closer to East Bay than it is to any Cali track

I wouldn't suggest a trip directly piggybacking off of I-80 as most of the teams are wanting to head back East afterward. I was just implying that Nebraska is a hike for a lot of the tour regulars, maybe not quite as far as the West Coast but still one hell of a drive, but if you give them a decent race they don't complain (as is the case with the SDN). Now add 1000 miles to the drive and I guess it could, I just think there is a lot of opportunity out there and some really great drivers could come from over that way if we would get people interested in SLMs over there.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

So because he switches to your favorite chassis builder, do you still refer to him as a cheater?

And before you answer, go back to a couple of those tire threads to refresh on what you said.

And I'm a jimmy fan fwiw........I like him a lot even though he does drive a chassis that's designed by somebody I don't.

Yes for sure -- if they are guilty of prepping tires then that is cheating. You do realize Gregg Satterlee is one of my favorite drivers, and I'm a big Brandon Sheppard fan as well. If Josh Richards had been caught prepping tires I would be just as adamant as I was about tire prepping and still would have gone to the same WoO races I would go to now even without Richards in the field if he were suspended.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[W2Racing09]

This is exactly what I would like to see. Bring your A game every night!! Why is it you think it is bad that a so-called top team goes in the red? When their are many other Teams (under funded) that race full time and its okay.

Just remember, if it is a high paying race 50.000.00 at the top. You will get the best their is for that one spot. And drops off a lot through out the field. You have less cars. Now take 30.000.00 at the top with it paying more at the lower end. A lot more cars. Which race, if you had to choose would you go to?

It wouldn't last very long. The difference between the top teams and the other teams is that those other teams are probably not doing racing to make ends meat where as a driver like Davenport is using it to provide his income.

If these guys have to race for a living, rather than make a living to support their racing then they need as many opportunities to make big money as possible. In this case whats best for the fans IS NOT best for the sport.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Aluminium Block]

WoO has lost a lot of their "star power," Only 3 of the top 10 would be considered superstars at this time. The rest are regional-level drivers that have the funds to tour nationally. Shirley is borderline since he does have a big win at Knoxville on his resume. Chub at one time was upper tier, but now doesn't even win regional shows when he is off WoO. 1 1 Josh Richards 2 25 Shane Clanton 3 7 Rick Eckert 4 3S Brian Shirley 5 76 Brandon Overton(not a nice word)(not a nice word) 6 C9 Steve Casebolt 7 21JR Billy Moyer Jr. 8 99JR Frank Heckenast Jr. 9 1* Chub Frank 10 18 Eric Wells _________________________________ One cannot deny that Lucas has overall more "star power," more "Crown Jewel" winners etc including several WoO defectors. 1 0 Scott Bloomquist 5480 2 6 Jonathan Davenport 5220 3 B5 Brandon Sheppard 5010 4 777 Jared Landers 4995 5 39 Tim McCreadie 4825 6 28E Dennis Erb, Jr. 4645 7 15L Darrell Lanigan 4630 8 5 Don O'Neal 4620 9 1 Earl Pearson, Jr. 4480 10 20 Jimmy Owens 4460

[W2Racing09]

WoO has lost a lot of their "star power," Only 3 of the top 10 would be considered superstars at this time. The rest are regional-level drivers that have the funds to tour nationally. Shirley is borderline since he does have a big win at Knoxville on his resume. Chub at one time was upper tier, but now doesn't even win regional shows when he is off WoO. 1 1 Josh Richards 2 25 Shane Clanton 3 7 Rick Eckert 4 3S Brian Shirley 5 76 Brandon Overton(not a nice word)(not a nice word) 6 C9 Steve Casebolt 7 21JR Billy Moyer Jr. 8 99JR Frank Heckenast Jr. 9 1* Chub Frank 10 18 Eric Wells _________________________________ One cannot deny that Lucas has overall more "star power," more "Crown Jewel" winners etc including several WoO defectors. 1 0 Scott Bloomquist 5480 2 6 Jonathan Davenport 5220 3 B5 Brandon Sheppard 5010 4 777 Jared Landers 4995 5 39 Tim McCreadie 4825 6 28E Dennis Erb, Jr. 4645 7 15L Darrell Lanigan 4630 8 5 Don O'Neal 4620 9 1 Earl Pearson, Jr. 4480 10 20 Jimmy Owens 4460

I'm definitely not denying that, based on history LOLMDS has a lot of drivers that have been big names. Based on performance this year they are very, very equal however. A lot of those big names the LOLMDS has have done next to nothing all season.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[NormP]

The mistake you are making Jeff, is only using one season's stats. Everyone knows Lanigan, Francis, O'neal, etc. have had much better years than this year. So to say one guy has won more than all of them doesn't really prove anything. 4 years ago Francis was winning more than most, 3 years ago O'neal was, 2 years ago Lanigan and Owens were, etc.

Are you really going to tell us Moyer Jr. Jr. is tougher competition than Jimmy Owens?

[W2Racing09]

The mistake you are making Jeff, is only using one season's stats. Everyone knows Lanigan, Francis, O'neal, etc. have had much better years than this year. So to say one guy has won more than all of them doesn't really prove anything. 4 years ago Francis was winning more than most, 3 years ago O'neal was, 2 years ago Lanigan was, etc.

Oh that is no mistake, I don't base anything on performance from two or three years ago. DLM racing changes too much too fast to go by that. Of course name recognition is important to a series, but as far as on track performance stats from the olden days don't really matter. Jimmy Owens won a bunch of championships on the LOLMDS pre 2014, and now look he struggles to finish on the lead lap.

[Barbecueboy]

Why would it be top 10 only if each series has 12 or more guys following?

Thanks,
Jeff.

Because I asked you to do it for the top ten.........had I said top 12 then you would be correct.

Again, just a way to make your numbers look how you need them to look.........making my point for me.

[jog49]

"The mistake you are making Jeff, is only using one season's stats. Everyone knows Lanigan, Francis, O'neal, etc. have had much better years than this year. So to say one guy has won more than all of them doesn't really prove anything. 4 years ago Francis was winning more than most, 3 years ago O'neal was, 2 years ago Lanigan and Owens were, etc.

Are you really going to tell us Moyer Jr. Jr. is tougher competition than Jimmy Owens?"

Careful there NormP. This little Gen Y or Z kid you're arguing with hasn't been out of diapers too long so he can't think back too many years! LOL!

[old fan]

operative word is had don't live in the past

[old fan]

Are you really going to tell us Moyer Jr. Jr. is tougher competition than Jimmy Owens?" neither this year are running stellar Owens has many wins and a freaky one to boot

[W2Racing09]

"The mistake you are making Jeff, is only using one season's stats. Everyone knows Lanigan, Francis, O'neal, etc. have had much better years than this year. So to say one guy has won more than all of them doesn't really prove anything. 4 years ago Francis was winning more than most, 3 years ago O'neal was, 2 years ago Lanigan and Owens were, etc.

Are you really going to tell us Moyer Jr. Jr. is tougher competition than Jimmy Owens?"

Careful there NormP. This little Gen Y or Z kid you're arguing with hasn't been out of diapers too long so he can't think back too many years! LOL!

I am not sure if calling someone Gen Y is supposed to be an insult?

All time, Owens is better but this season its probably a toss up or close to it. Owens lucked into his one win, and it wasnt just a little bit of luck it was a lot.

That is all that matters in a discussion about the roster of a National tour for the 2016. I dont think it matters even remotely what Owens did in 2011 when he has struggled to make races in 2016.

I suppose you must think the Yankees are the best team in baseball this year too huh?

[Barbecueboy]

I am not sure if calling someone Gen Y is supposed to be an insult?

All time, Owens is better but this season its probably a toss up or close to it. Owens lucked into his one win, and it wasnt just a little bit of luck it was a lot.

That is all that matters in a discussion about the roster of a National tour for the 2016. I dont think it matters even remotely what Owens did in 2011 when he has struggled to make races in 2016.

I suppose you must think the Yankees are the best team in baseball this year too huh?

The worst team in baseball is the best team this year...........

[W2Racing09]

Because I asked you to do it for the top ten.........had I said top 12 then you would be correct.

Again, just a way to make your numbers look how you need them to look.........making my point for me.

So you are trying to make a point that im selecting the numbers that support my argument because I didnt use the numbers you selected to support your argument?

If there was a logical reason to compare just the top ten other than you said so then I could understand.

[Barbecueboy]

So you are trying to make a point that im selecting the numbers that support my argument because I didnt use the numbers you selected to support your argument?

If there was a logical reason to compare just the top ten other than you said so then I could understand.

Not really bcause Lucas wins either way........I just found it odd that I stated to put the top ten head to head and you came back with a score 7 to 5.

Nothing conspiratorial about it.....just found it odd that you would change the numbers up from the original question or statement.

The devil is always in the details..........and I pay attention to details......all of them.

[old fan]

bbq is just pulling his pork if you know what I mean

[Barbecueboy]

bbq is just pulling his pork if you know what I mean

I knew you girls just loved saying that phrase......and as disturbing as a grown mans fetish is for saying pulling or pulled pork , I must tell you again for the umpteenth thousandth time.

Great BBQ is chopped or sliced........if it falls into pieces and you can only pull it apart, it's overcooked.

[Barbecueboy]

So you are trying to make a point that im selecting the numbers that support my argument because I didnt use the numbers you selected to support your argument?

If there was a logical reason to compare just the top ten other than you said so then I could understand.
And if I asked you to compare the top 12 teams in the American League versus the top 12 in the national league..........would you give me the comparative of the top 16 in each league just because you wanted too??

[old fan]

like Hillary would say what difference does it make

[W2Racing09]

And if I asked you to compare the top 12 teams in the American League versus the top 12 in the national league..........would you give me the comparative of the top 16 in each league just because you wanted too??

I don't see the point in giving half the story. If both have 16 why not 16? Is there a reason for it? If Lucas only had 10 cars I would have only done the top 10, its not like I'm saying top 15 when the LOLMDS only has 12 and the WoO has 15.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[old fan]

I knew you girls just loved saying that phrase......and as disturbing as a grown mans fetish is for saying pulling or pulled pork , I must tell you again for the umpteenth thousandth time.Great BBQ is chopped or sliced........if it falls into pieces and you can only pull it apart, it's overcooked. if you say so

[plunks7]

like Hillary would say what difference does it make

Or what Humpty Dumpty (The Donald) did say. I will be taking a long vacation.

[old fan]

see you don't let the door hit you in the knees lol

[plunks7]

Has Richards ever run at I-80 for the SDN? Does his family have an extremely successful business to run? Does he have a life outside of racing? You can ask him all these questions yourself in victory lane at a track near you soon enough I'm sure.

Thanks,
Jeff.



Senior Member



Join Date:Apr 2014Location:Littlestown, PAPosts:1,269


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Quote Originally Posted by plunks7 View Post

That ranks right up their with BOO WOO at Cedar Lake. You know, drivers cheat and get suspended that were running well. And the Best Late Model Driver ever in the Country if you are counting races in the entire history of dirt late models and not just results from this season. So BOO WOO could win one of their big money events even with some of the best LOLMDS cars in the field including last years champion. What's the real reason Josh didn't show up at I-80? How Dare he (Josh) ask for show-up money. WAFJ!!!!! Its a good thing I am not a promoter. I wouldn't even be able to type a coherent press release so nobody would know to show up at my track.

We have found another CHEATER. Bad on you Jeff. I guess the BOO WOO do cheat. Not what I said at all!!!! Maybe you should be checked for DOPING. :)

[Barbecueboy]

I don't see the point in giving half the story. If both have 16 why not 16? Is there a reason for it? If Lucas only had 10 cars I would have only done the top 10, its not like I'm saying top 15 when the LOLMDS only has 12 and the WoO has 15.

Thanks,
Jeff.

Different irrelevant numbers flying all over the place when only a specific set ( in this case the top ten)of them were asked about or referenced to begin with.

I don't think I've ever had someone make a point so well that they are trying not to make..........your numbers say what you want them to say......like I said.

And I'm in no way saying I don't do the very same.......I think everybody does it to some degree......some are just better at it than others.