New Lucas Tire Rule and a New Chassis for Owens

[Returning to Dirt]

http://insidedirtracing.com/turn-2-blog-new-lucas-tire-rule-and-a-new-chassis-for-owens/

Michael and Richard discuss two major developments in dirt racing and there possible impacts.

[Aces&Eights]

I'm not in favor of this rule or the Rumley rule, more rules don't make things cheaper or better competition. How are you suppose to set the car up at the shop if you don't get tires till your at the track? Somebody needs to resurrect the NDRL, quick. As to JO running a Rocket, I don't think a switch is going to prove magical. I think the departure of Chris Fox was a deep blow to that team. Barry builds fine cars, they won the Lucas points just 2 or 3 seasons ago, but Lucas is far more competitive than WoO can ever hope to be and getting more so all the time, maybe switching to WoO would be more lucrative endeavor.

[Bubstr]

I can't say I'm for any of these new rules that makes all the cars the same. It's a recipe for expensive cars, not a money saver. It makes any gains smaller and more expensive in the long run.

As far as the tire rule goes, we have never heard about what boogieman chemical is the people killer, that prompted the tire rule. I'm sure EPA isn't looking for WD40 (fish oil) or Dawn dish detergent, which we have all ate a bunch of, that was on our dishes. Maybe it is paint solvents that are sold over the counter to clean paint brushes. Could it be oil of wintergreen, that you eat in life savers?

Wouldn't it make more sense, to call out this boogieman chemical and ban it and it alone and there wouldn't be any wiggle room in the rule, like I washed my car with this. Wouldn't it make sense to say Hexoclorithane is deadly and illegal, or any other chemical that they decidedly wish not to share, instead of penalizing racers that wash their car with a detergent. If you made the rule simple and to the point, it would be more effective and easier to enforce, unless this isn't about health hazards and cost.

[Aces&Eights]

I say go back to sniffer before qualifying and no open treating of tires at track, no grooving, no sipping, no wrapped tires. Simple.

[Barbecueboy]

I can't say I'm for any of these new rules that makes all the cars the same. It's a recipe for expensive cars, not a money saver. It makes any gains smaller and more expensive in the long run.

As far as the tire rule goes, we have never heard about what boogieman chemical is the people killer, that prompted the tire rule. I'm sure EPA isn't looking for WD40 (fish oil) or Dawn dish detergent, which we have all ate a bunch of, that was on our dishes. Maybe it is paint solvents that are sold over the counter to clean paint brushes. Could it be oil of wintergreen, that you eat in life savers?

Wouldn't it make more sense, to call out this boogieman chemical and ban it and it alone and there wouldn't be any wiggle room in the rule, like I washed my car with this. Wouldn't it make sense to say Hexoclorithane is deadly and illegal, or any other chemical that they decidedly wish not to share, instead of penalizing racers that wash their car with a detergent. If you made the rule simple and to the point, it would be more effective and easier to enforce, unless this isn't about health hazards and cost.
They just need to be honest about the tire rule..........it's not written because of the health hazards.....it's not written because of the potential dangers and it's certainly not written to save the racer any money.

[dirtdobber45]

They just need to be honest about the tire rule..........it's not written because of the health hazards.....it's not written because of the potential dangers and it's certainly not written to save the racer any money.Could be this

[old fan]

and your point is woo has a tire choice at many tracks but guess what same results

[a25rjr]

They just need to be honest about the tire rule..........it's not written because of the health hazards.....it's not written because of the potential dangers and it's certainly not written to save the racer any money.

That's the post of the year on this subject!

Let them do whatever to their tires.......just givem a punch rule! Very very very little policing needed!

[Centeroff]

I got a smooth 100$ that the zero beats the 6 this weekend. Can't give 0 a week off from racing and not expect him to bring a bullet this week

[a25rjr]

I got a smooth 100$ that the zero beats the 6 this weekend. Can't give 0 a week off from racing and not expect him to bring a bullet this week

Haha, true! Knowing Scott, hes probly developed a clear prep that is applied to the wheel and dissolves once the tire builds a little heat!

[Barbecueboy]

Can somebody tell my why a tire company can't build a tire that does what the racer wants?

If the racer is prepping trying to make it fire , do the tire companies not know how to make a tire that will fire?

Or is it that they just don't want too?

[Barbecueboy]

Do the racers really know more about tires than the tire companies?

That's just pretty darn hard to believe.

[dirtdobber45]

Haha, true! Knowing Scott, hes probly developed a clear prep that is applied to the wheel and dissolves once the tire builds a little heat!Sssshhhhhh dont say things like that....suppose to be a secret lol

[Barbecueboy]

Haha, true! Knowing Scott, hes probly developed a clear prep that is applied to the wheel and dissolves once the tire builds a little heat!

Old smokey peach......

[Centeroff]

I know it's the same for everyone but these guys are gonna have to figure out a way to scuff the right rear and fast. I think the no scuffing or cutting the tire is complete hogwash. I'm assuming that they do not want the teams to be able to have much alone time with the tire. I guarantee you see a lot of swirving before feature time because the drivers are gonna try to get the right rear scuffed asap. The rubber on the new tire will not have grip until the skin as we call it is gone. Old timers believe the tire will not fire at all unless the the skin is grinded off to the "good rubber". It could definitely affect the balance of the cars. Imo they should mark the tires and distribute them to the drivers the day of the race.

[Aces&Eights]

Can somebody tell my why a tire company can't build a tire that does what the racer wants?

If the racer is prepping trying to make it fire , do the tire companies not know how to make a tire that will fire?

Or is it that they just don't want too?your missing the point on how racers think. Most of the time the top level racers choose the same tires for a given situation because it's the best for it. But since they all choose the same they have no advantage over each other. The only way to get an edge is to alter the tire they want to use to be slightly different than competition. A tire company could never make enough tires to suit. Open tire I think is best, but not a 100% solution either. Once u start dictating compounds racers start looking for an edge. 15 years ago Rex Richey had the SAS series all messed up. Rule was everyone D55, he relabeled other compounds to say D55 and sold them. They ended up going open tire just to put him out of business.

Open tire, all brands, must declare brand before event, no open treating, and we're back to racing without home chemistry.

[old fan]

all brands you mean what 2 tires manufactures and those tires will be treated and you know that . name a crown jewel that has a open tire rule or has had a open tire rule

[kidrock]

What I don't understand why can't they just go out and run the tire without prepping the tire. Why do they feel the need to prep the tire. No I get because someone else is doing it but, if no one did wouldn't they all be on the same playing field. And I'm only talking about doping the tire not grooving and sipening the tire.

[W2Racing09]

Again --

Drivers DO NOT want an open tire rule. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you checked with the 5 guys that got suspended if 3-4 of them were against the idea of an open rule (Bloomquist being the one in favor if I had to guess).

Maybe the rule wasn't written for the health hazards, but that isn't to say that can't be a purpose now. Look at all of these people who were doing Karts in the 80s and 90s who have health problems from the rampant use of tire prep. Not to mention the time, and the extra money (it might not be a lot, but more is more) that teams would have to spend in order to do this.

90% of drivers do not want an open tire rule which would allow tire prep. Some would prefer open with both manufacturers but when it comes time to pay out the point fund at the end of the season and it pays half as much they would probably change their tune. I'm sure Hoosier is a big contributor to UMP.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[old fan]

What I don't understand why can't they just go out and run the tire without prepping the tire. Why do they feel the need to prep the tire. No I get because someone else is doing it but, if no one did wouldn't they all be on the same playing field. And I'm only talking about doping the tire not grooving and sipening the tire. if they want to stop this tire doping they need to make the penalties harsher , hoosier helps out point fund in many series and I love that people complain about the expense of late model tires , try some of the other classes

[Barbecueboy]

your missing the point on how racers think. Most of the time the top level racers choose the same tires for a given situation because it's the best for it. But since they all choose the same they have no advantage over each other. The only way to get an edge is to alter the tire they want to use to be slightly different than competition. A tire company could never make enough tires to suit. Open tire I think is best, but not a 100% solution either. Once u start dictating compounds racers start looking for an edge. 15 years ago Rex Richey had the SAS series all messed up. Rule was everyone D55, he relabeled other compounds to say D55 and sold them. They ended up going open tire just to put him out of business.

Open tire, all brands, must declare brand before event, no open treating, and we're back to racing without home chemistry.

I understand how racers think and I agree with you.......but really good racers look to take advantage with their driving skills , not their cheating skills.

And I agree with the open tire rule.......but that ain't happening any time soon.

[Bumpandrun]

Who is Owens going to be driving for in the new Rocket? And is he returning back to the motor's he has run in the past?

[Aces&Eights]

@Barbecue You asked, "why they don't make tires that do exactly what racers want?"
That would be impossible, because what they want is an edge over everyone else, which is either a custom tire compound(unique) or customize the compound yourself(cheating). I'm not suggesting All racers resort to cheating tires, but the desire to be a step ahead is the motivation that can lead to it and when the box is made smaller, the temptation only increases.

[Kromulous]

The old problem was Hoosier had the power to hold series and promoters at ransom. VIA pulling points funds etc. Now days Lucas and WOO are big enough to say hey, we want X tire and that's it. No re-stamping, or other shenanigans.

I think Lucas or WoO could get Hoosier to produce tires that say LUCAS-RR etc etc for all 4 corners. Then if they find Hooiser is doing some shady $hit, and their know for it, they can put the crimps on them. Take the power back to the sanctioning bodies.

[Aces&Eights]

Rex Richey was so good with his re-stamping he fooled Hoosier, so...

[Kromulous]

Paint stamp on the inside of the tire.

There is an idea, put some type of paint or chalk on the inside of the tire. If its gone, dissolved etc your out, via tire softener on the inside of the tire.

I wonder if there is a chemical you could add to the rubber that would react to other chemicals when applied to the tire that would change color etc? Kinda like the blue dye stuff in pools to keep kids from peeing in them...

It can be done, just gotta get to out thinking the others.

[DEKconsulting]

Hoosier has had some shady stuff goin on i personally know persons who have gotten 1300s stamped 1600 for a 1600 tire rule track and 1325s dtamped 1600 directly from hoosier not goin to say which particular region but yes it is goin on if u have the right connections

[slmcrewchief99]

Kromulous, the rubber is white when it's in it's raw form. Its turns black when the carbon black is mixed with the rubber, along with the other synthetic rubber mixed in with it. That's when it changes color. Not sure of any way you could ever get anything to make it change from its "black" color.

Open tire rule is not the answer. You can still juice tires to do things that will be better than an untreated tire most of the time. There is a science to juicing tires and making them work. The guys that do it all the time know what to do but to those that don't, lots of time and money are put into it with very little success. Low budget teams don't have the time and money to put in to what it takes to do it and do it right. 1 of the biggest reasons for me personally as being against juicing tires. We don't have the means, the money, or ANY d@mn desire to juice tires.

I think the penalties are where it is at. Lots of things have to change to make the process 100% legit if you are going to "legally" fine or suspend a driver for cheating. I've said before I don't have any problem at all with the series we run with and the "collection" process. I think its great. It's from that point on the questions really start showing. All the series need to get together, along with Hoosier and American Racer, and with the respective Labs that test the samples. The process has to be exact and absolute if you are going to make penalties have merit. All of those groups have to come together to make the process easier and more precise.

If you can make the testing process correct then you start nailing the guys doing it. Fine them the 1st time. Suspend them from racing period (sanctioned, non sanctioned, even local racing) for a few races and fine them very stiff the 2nd time. Then if it happens again the 3rd time, suspend them for 365 days. I know a lot of people hate the thought of that but if you make a believer out of those that juice tires then they will stop. It has to be enforced and be fair. If not, then it will end up in the Courthouse. Suspending guys from racing is no different than our everyday jobs we have. If we mess up, we get in trouble but are able to keep working. If we mess up often enough and bad enough we get fired. Stopping a few the hard way will go a very long way to stopping it all together.

[old fan]

4 th time your done go play golf or fish

[Barbecueboy]

@Barbecue You asked, "why they don't make tires that do exactly what racers want?"
That would be impossible, because what they want is an edge over everyone else, which is either a custom tire compound(unique) or customize the compound yourself(cheating). I'm not suggesting All racers resort to cheating tires, but the desire to be a step ahead is the motivation that can lead to it and when the box is made smaller, the temptation only increases.

We all want what we can't have....I totally understand that.

I'm just sayin, tire companies should be able to bring to the track a set of tires that would meet the compound requirments per race , that are factory groove and siped ( for the blister worries etc.) and tell the teams to suck it up and run them.........you did it to yourselves , cheatin bastards.

[Barbecueboy]

Rex Richey was so good with his re-stamping he fooled Hoosier, so...

He must not have been that good.......

[Barbecueboy]

Kromulous, the rubber is white when it's in it's raw form. Its turns black when the carbon black is mixed with the rubber, along with the other synthetic rubber mixed in with it. That's when it changes color. Not sure of any way you could ever get anything to make it change from its "black" color.

Open tire rule is not the answer. You can still juice tires to do things that will be better than an untreated tire most of the time. There is a science to juicing tires and making them work. The guys that do it all the time know what to do but to those that don't, lots of time and money are put into it with very little success. Low budget teams don't have the time and money to put in to what it takes to do it and do it right. 1 of the biggest reasons for me personally as being against juicing tires. We don't have the means, the money, or ANY d@mn desire to juice tires.

I think the penalties are where it is at. Lots of things have to change to make the process 100% legit if you are going to "legally" fine or suspend a driver for cheating. I've said before I don't have any problem at all with the series we run with and the "collection" process. I think its great. It's from that point on the questions really start showing. All the series need to get together, along with Hoosier and American Racer, and with the respective Labs that test the samples. The process has to be exact and absolute if you are going to make penalties have merit. All of those groups have to come together to make the process easier and more precise.

If you can make the testing process correct then you start nailing the guys doing it. Fine them the 1st time. Suspend them from racing period (sanctioned, non sanctioned, even local racing) for a few races and fine them very stiff the 2nd time. Then if it happens again the 3rd time, suspend them for 365 days. I know a lot of people hate the thought of that but if you make a believer out of those that juice tires then they will stop. It has to be enforced and be fair. If not, then it will end up in the Courthouse. Suspending guys from racing is no different than our everyday jobs we have. If we mess up, we get in trouble but are able to keep working. If we mess up often enough and bad enough we get fired. Stopping a few the hard way will go a very long way to stopping it all together.

Another thread ender...........summed up nicely chief.

[old fan]

We all want what we can't have....I totally understand that.I'm just sayin, tire companies should be able to bring to the track a set of tires that would meet the compound requirments per race , that are factory groove and siped ( for the blister worries etc.) and tell the teams to suck it up and run them.........you did it to yourselves , cheatin bastards. how can the nanufactur come in with a tire already cut when multiple scenarios may happen

[Barbecueboy]

I've seen some drag racing where the tires threw off red smoke when they did a burnout......isn't that something inside the tire that does that?

[Barbecueboy]

how can the nanufactur come in with a tire already cut when multiple scenarios may happen

They tell the racer to suck it up and race cupcake............and go figure it out.

It's not like they are asking them to bolt on cinder blocks.

They aren't stupid, they know how to make tires, the series know how to plan for events, the tracks know what tires normally work well.

It's not really as hard as that sidewalk.

[old fan]

now go pull your pork http://www.racingtireguide.com/kumho-spt-colored-smoke.html

[old fan]

They tell the racer to suck it up and race cupcake............and go figure it out.It's not like they are asking them to bolt on cinder blocks.They aren't stupid, they know how to make tires, the series know how to plan for events, the tracks know what tires normally work well.It's not really as hard as that sidewalk.but not every track acts the same some tracks the tires are cut up a lot different than other tracks

[Barbecueboy]

but not every track acts the same some tracks the tires are cut up a lot different than other tracks

If stupid were water, I would consider myself freshly water boarded.........come on litey, I understand all that, I'm saying give the racers a safe durable tire they don't really need to fuk with....and dare them to do so with stiff enforcement consequences.

The tire companies know how to do this stuff......for this to work, the racers are going to have to completely change their thinking.

I see the conversation going something like this ...........

Here are your tires......they are safe......they have have a standard cut and sipe pattern.....we have several compounds of each.......pick what you want to race on.....pay us a reasonable price.......stfu and go race......fuk with these tires and your out.......period.

Or go back to go carts.

[a25rjr]

If stupid were water, I would consider myself freshly water boarded.........come on litey, I understand all that, I'm saying give the racers a safe durable tire they don't really need to fuk with....and dare them to do so with stiff enforcement consequences.

The tire companies know how to do this stuff......for this to work, the racers are going to have to completely change their thinking.

I see the conversation going something like this ...........

Here are your tires......they are safe......they have have a standard cut and sipe pattern.....we have several compounds of each.......pick what you want to race on.....pay us a reasonable price.......stfu and go race......fuk with these tires and your out.......period.

Or go back to go carts.

Or.......heres yall 1 hard tire that you got to run on all 4 corners, but you can do whatever you want to it! NO testing will be done!

[old fan]

If stupid were water, I would consider myself freshly water boarded.........come on litey, I understand all that, I'm saying give the racers a safe durable tire they don't really need to fuk with....and dare them to do so with stiff enforcement consequences.The tire companies know how to do this stuff......for this to work, the racers are going to have to completely change their thinking.I see the conversation going something like this ...........Here are your tires......they are safe......they have have a standard cut and sipe pattern.....we have several compounds of each.......pick what you want to race on.....pay us a reasonable price.......stfu and go race......fuk with these tires and your out.......period.Or go back to go carts. you can't fix stupid