Flipping cars & injuries

[chathamracefan]

Just wanted to throw out a question to get some ideas on what can be done to slow the cars down &/or make them less prone to flipping. Seems this year there has been a rash of nasty ones with some driver injuries to boot. I saw the Eric Wells crash at the PDC & it was as vicious a flip as I've seen in a late model. I know tacky track conditions as well as some track layouts with open corners are a factor, but it seems the cars are getting much more prone to sprint car type flips in recent years.

Seems like something might need to be done as some of the tracks really aren't "flip worthy" if you will in terms of the barriers & fencing they have. I'm by no means an expert, just a fan & curious of other's thoughts on this.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

it may just be that the internet has broadened our information so much that we know about more flips because we are aware of more races, but we used to go to 5-10 HAT races a year, as well as alot of unsanctioned big races and SAS races in East Tenn and Ga. and I too don't remember very many flips at all. In fact, I have only ever seen just a couple.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

I also wonder if it's the suspension they run today. I don't know if I just didnt notice it years ago, but it seems that now, almost every car looks like the front end suspension is broken, they way they lay over so much on the right side.
I think stiffening up the right sides would probably help. Keep cars on top of the tracks a bit more.

[flagone]

It is absolutely contributed to by the suspensions of today. Tied down right fronts and pinned up left rears - the car is in a constant state of yaw with the nose as close to track as possible. All it takes is that nose to dig in a little bit and they are flipping. The cars have gotten faster and the only things that have really changed the last 3 years is the aero stuff and suspensions. The suspensions changed to help the aero.

I am NOT against technology or ingenuity but I believe if we took all the aero out of the equation we would see less flips and slower speeds which would equate to less injuries. I get attacked every time I say it but its a fact we are going too fast for the cars we have. And everyone that jumps on me says we should make the cars better and improve safety equipment. And that is all well and good but what about the 20,000 cars that are already out there? Is everyone going to go and buy a new car that is beefed up for higher speeds? Or are they just going to quit because they already won't spend the money to have a $800 fire suppression system or a good 3 layer suit. Taking the aero away costs very little to nothing really. Get the nose back where it was in 2003 or 2004. Floppers flat. Bodies flat. Make the doors the same height on both sides. It really wouldn't take a lot.

[MRM]

Good points Kelley. I think less people will complain about slowing the cars down and/or doing away with some of the aero stuff if more and more drivers continue to have these awful looking accidents and even miss time due to injuries.

[ironboss]

I agree...it is time to reign in some of the aero tricks with new body rules especially when it comes to the nose, sail panels, and uniform doors and sides. Things have got a little out of control the last 2-3 years.

[Cardirt0]

Good points Kelley. I think less people will complain about slowing the cars down and/or doing away with some of the aero stuff if more and more drivers continue to have these awful looking accidents and even miss time due to injuries.

On top of that I think the racing would Improve....All this Aero Make me think of WoO sprint cars Train racing...

[Cardirt0]

I know some get mad with me when I Bring up Nascar, but Aero is what is killing them if you ask me...Put the cars back too were the drivers have too drive them...Not all this Balls too the walls power slide $hit...Whens the last time you seen someone win running down the center of the track...
Add
Think how meany times CJ Rayburn has said all this High end Frame $hit is going too Kill racing...He should all so add or Kill a driver..

[Welder89]

I was standing beside Steve Francis at the north south when a guy came over to do an interview with him. He said he would love to see the series make a one linear spring per corner of the car, no stacks or bump stops. I'm pretty sure he also said he would like for a rule on working tires, think he said he would like to take away grooving and siphing. Which I think would take a lot more of the R&D out of setting one up. I mean kudos to those who can gain an advantage and know what they are doing when it comes to the spring smasher/shock dyno or tire selection. You hate to take away an advantage that some teams have figured out. But I mean look at the amount of time , effort and money some of these drivers/crew members spend on just working tires and testing stuff on the shock dynos. I just think it would take some of hard work out of week to week racing and allow guys to go home more or have more down time and bring back something that you very rarely see in the pits and that's crews having fun and enjoying what they are doing. Everybody wants to win and have success but you gotta throw some fun in there somewhere.

[Cardirt0]

I was standing beside Steve Francis at the north south when a guy came over to do an interview with him. He said he would love to see the series make a one linear spring per corner of the car, no stacks or bump stops. I'm pretty sure he also said he would like for a rule on working tires, think he said he would like to take away grooving and siphing. Which I think would take a lot more of the R&D out of setting one up. I mean kudos to those who can gain an advantage and know what they are doing when it comes to the spring smasher/shock dyno or tire selection. You hate to take away an advantage that some teams have figured out. But I mean look at the amount of time , effort and money some of these drivers/crew members spend on just working tires and testing stuff on the shock dynos. I just think it would take some of hard work out of week to week racing and allow guys to go home more or have more down time and bring back something that you very rarely see in the pits and that's crews having fun and enjoying what they are doing. Everybody wants to win and have success but you gotta throw some fun in there somewhere.

Here Here I stopped helping .. First the Guy I helped Became a $hit head.. But It was i was working so hard i forgot Why i was there.....Just was not fun no more...Went back too watching...

[tb1545]

i really think taking away the front splitters on the noses, the fins on the front fenders, and reducing the rear spoiler height would be great aero changes to help reduce the downforce on both ends of the cars. I think its a needed step, but i dont think it would prevent most of the flips. as flagone said, most of it is due to the hiked chassis suspensions. If we would find a way get off of some of this coilbinding/bump stop asphalt type suspensions, i think racing would be able to improve a lot and be safer.

[smith19]

gonna have to start running a wing...j/k

[mopar92]

I believe before changing the cars, look at blunt walls, start checking for guys that are racing 10 year old helmets in seats held in by 2 bolts. There's a whole lot more of the locals getting injured than the big guys. I bet there is way more than we know getting hurt in pony cars etc. I still see guys racing pony cars in tee shirts and wearing a 12 year old helmet with no gloves. Heaven only knows the age and condition of the seat belts in the car. It starts with a safety standard and tracks putting a little effort into it. One track I race at has giant tractor tires filled with dirt protecting a blunt wall. There's a few things wrong with that.

[Bubstr]

I have to disagree with Areo being the culprit that rolls cars over. It keeps them down. What rolls them over is higher centers of gravity, from LR hike and over all raising weight for better weight transfer for forward and side bite. Is it easier to push a refrigerator over by pushing at the bottom or top? Your center of gravity is where forces push. If you raise that point, the car will tumble easier. Fairly simple. Remember the old flat running cars? They slid a lot more. Now that they get up in the air, they get more than their wish for side bite at times. There is your problem. How do you fix it, when everyone runs on the edge.?

[Cardirt0]

I have to disagree with Areo being the culprit that rolls cars over. It keeps them down. What rolls them over is higher centers of gravity, from LR hike and over all raising weight for better weight transfer for forward and side bite. Is it easier to push a refrigerator over by pushing at the bottom or top? Your center of gravity is where forces push. If you raise that point, the car will tumble easier. Fairly simple. Remember the old flat running cars? They slid a lot more. Now that they get up in the air, they get more than their wish for side bite at times. There is your problem. How do you fix it, when everyone runs on the edge.?

And that Refrigerator is now a 1/3 of the way flipped when they on the gas..some cars are 1 foot or more higher on the drivers side now...Nose digs in tire digs in you gone...Its not Areo...

[Josh Bayko]

And that Refrigerator is now a 1/3 of the way flipped when they on the gas..some cars are 1 foot or more higher on the drivers side now...Nose digs in tire digs in you gone...Its not Areo...

Modern setups are the way way they are because of the aerodynamics a late model brings. If you took away some of that aero, the setups would go away, because the cars would be tighter than bull's a*shole.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

I don't know a ton about weight and setups, but didn't oval racers used to want the weight as low and furthest left as they could get it?

[billetbirdcage]

I don't know a ton about weight and setups, but didn't oval racers used to want the weight as low and furthest left as they could get it?

NO!


Too me what has changed most is the speed into the corner, thus more likely to flip on some tracks with character.

Name one person that has flipped that wasn't on entry to the middle of the corner?

[billetbirdcage]

It is absolutely contributed to by the suspensions of today. Tied down right fronts and pinned up left rears - the car is in a constant state of yaw with the nose as close to track as possible. All it takes is that nose to dig in a little bit and they are flipping. The cars have gotten faster and the only things that have really changed the last 3 years is the aero stuff and suspensions. The suspensions changed to help the aero.

I am NOT against technology or ingenuity but I believe if we took all the aero out of the equation we would see less flips and slower speeds which would equate to less injuries. I get attacked every time I say it but its a fact we are going too fast for the cars we have. And everyone that jumps on me says we should make the cars better and improve safety equipment. And that is all well and good but what about the 20,000 cars that are already out there? Is everyone going to go and buy a new car that is beefed up for higher speeds? Or are they just going to quit because they already won't spend the money to have a $800 fire suppression system or a good 3 layer suit. Taking the aero away costs very little to nothing really. Get the nose back where it was in 2003 or 2004. Floppers flat. Bodies flat. Make the doors the same height on both sides. It really wouldn't take a lot.

Not really disagreeing with you Kelley but sort of hard to make a difference with the body rules when most can't enforce the body rules we have now.

[Clayton_Wetter]

Flipping is going to happen, it's racing and that means speed. A conventional suspension before the invention of J bars would do a lot to help. Going back to the suspensions of around 1980 is something I would like to see.

But if you want to slow cars down to stop rollovers that would take a lot. And who wants to go watch snail races?

[Josh Bayko]

NO!


Too me what has changed most is the speed into the corner, thus more likely to flip on some tracks with character.

Name one person that has flipped that wasn't on entry to the middle of the corner?

Freddie Carptenter at Tyler County back in August was on corner exit.

[billetbirdcage]

Freddie Carptenter at Tyler County back in August was on corner exit.

Was Chesley's flip off the corner? the photo's appear like it could have been as it seems like the cars where piled on the straight, but you know what assuming gets you?

Carpenters flip a hard one?

[Josh Bayko]

Was Chesley's flip off the corner? the photo's appear like it could have been as it seems like the cars where piled on the straight, but you know what assuming gets you?

Carpenters flip a hard one?

It was pretty nasty. Car was junk. Track had a foot high cushion that night because it kept raining on and off.

[a25rjr]

Not really disagreeing with you Kelley but sort of hard to make a difference with the body rules when most can't enforce the body rules we have now.

Let us hear your thoughts and/or opinions on this billet. You certainly have the knowledge and experience we could all learn from. What needs to be changed on these cars to keep them mostly on the ground?

[billetbirdcage]

Let us hear your thoughts and/or opinions on this billet. You certainly have the knowledge and experience we could all learn from. What needs to be changed on these cars to keep them mostly on the ground?

IT F$$KING DON'T MATTER they can't enforce the rules we have now so why make new ones!!!!!!


Sorry to be so blunt, but tired of rules that aren't enforced also you CAN'T UNLEARN TECHNOLOGY so we will find a way around them anyways and be back in the same place with LR up and RF down in a matter of weeks.

[Cardirt0]

IT F$$KING DON'T MATTER they can't enforce the rules we have now so why make new ones!!!!!!


Sorry to be so blunt, but tired of rules that aren't enforced also you CAN'T UNLEARN TECHNOLOGY so we will find a way around them anyways and be back in the same place with LR up and RF down in a matter of weeks.

been at track Tape check the window Tape check the spoiler count the Shocks they say good to go...Once that teen has had sex to late too tell him too stop...

[Stede Bonnet]

Just wanted to throw out a question to get some ideas on what can be done to slow the cars down &/or make them less prone to flipping. Seems this year there has been a rash of nasty ones with some driver injuries to boot. I saw the Eric Wells crash at the PDC & it was as vicious a flip as I've seen in a late model. I know tacky track conditions as well as some track layouts with open corners are a factor, but it seems the cars are getting much more prone to sprint car type flips in recent years.

Seems like something might need to be done as some of the tracks really aren't "flip worthy" if you will in terms of the barriers & fencing they have. I'm by no means an expert, just a fan & curious of other's thoughts on this.

My racing began in 1986 and between then and 1998 when the axle behind setup took hold I only ever saw 2 DLM's get turned over. Since then I've seen dozens in persons and many more online. Running the cars with an "FDAU"(Face Down A$$ Up) attitude invites flipping, its simple physics. The mass of the car is extremely elevated and the J-bar acts like a pole vault. If they hits a hole wrong or gets touched while in a bad angle, it just sends the car flipping. To me this issue and the escapability of the cars are what need addressing, followed by better fire fighting equipment, ie onboard fire suppression systems. In every incident I've seen, the primary issue is inability to exit the car or render aide, then add in fire and disaster is waiting around every turn. We need to keep the cars on their wheels...

[Clayton_Wetter]

Just put a round top on the cars and they will roll right back over on their wheels, Problem solved!!!! :)

[zeroracing]

The reality is short of changing the cars drastically in a way that would make current cars obsolete and restart the arms race I don't see what you could do. You could change the bodies, again wild changes would make the current cars junk, you could mandate linear springs, without bumps we would just tear up more shocks (assuming we don't put the bumps inside the shocks...)

If you change the rules to where all the current cars take major body work, or major chassis work to work again you will drive racers away.

We have learned that we can push the car harder than ever before, this is both aero and mechanically, the ideas have started to trickle down to other classes. I see more mods trying to cram the RF down, keep the tail up, even in three link b mods...

The truth is we have learned more than we ever thought possible just a few years ago, we cannot unlearn what we know now and a new rules package will just cause the teams to spend r and d money to recreate what we have now.

Years ago it was just the wedge body, not the wedge body and a set of trick shocks and suspensions linkages... Also engineers stayed in cup, now they trickle down and pass on knowledge. It is not as simple as people think.

Best rules to improve safety and work on speeds:

1. Harder tires
2. 50 # weight penalty for 1.5" cage
3. 50# for no automatic onboard fire system.

More and more rules just walk the line to asphalt spec racing and smaller fields. Our local track was up to 30 cars per night weekly in limited (no opens). Still pretty good field of guys that would drop to single digits with major changes.

[Bubstr]

I can think of several things, that could help save lives.
1# External fuel shut off valve in a standard spot.
2# External electrical disconnect close to or same switch as the fuel.
3# Roofs fastened on by Duzce fasteners or some quick disconnect, for quick driver removal.
4# A limiter chain on the left rear, that only allows a agreed amount of hike.

These would be easy to check and everything but the limiter could be optional, If they chose. At least Safety personal would know where to look for it. It would be up to the driver if he wished to see his kids graduate. There is a start.

[zeroracing]

Well,
1. External fuel shut off is a good idea
2. We used to have it then some body mandated it's now in reach of the driver. Tracks we used to run at always said right behind the seat, where track could reach it now it's in drivers reach. Which me as RF of (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit most the time.
3. Just cut them off, a simple set of shears would work as fast as mangled fasteners.
4. I hate when the rule book sets up the race car. Hate it, and we do have a limiter its roll steer becomes too much.

I do agree on the top two and see where your going on the third but would feel it would come off accidentally more than people would want or come off early in a flip and let the roof halo dig in.

[Cardirt0]

Well,
1. External fuel shut off is a good idea
2. We used to have it then some body mandated it's now in reach of the driver. Tracks we used to run at always said right behind the seat, where track could reach it now it's in drivers reach. Which me as RF of (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit most the time.
3. Just cut them off, a simple set of shears would work as fast as mangled fasteners.
4. I hate when the rule book sets up the race car. Hate it, and we do have a limiter its roll steer becomes too much.

I do agree on the top two and see where your going on the third but would feel it would come off accidentally more than people would want or come off early in a flip and let the roof halo dig in.

The last topless race i went to, I was thinking this is going too get some one killed.. Flip land on the berm 100 pounds of dirt entering the car at 60 MPH...Cause there no roof on the car..Not good...The roof need to be hard (Bolted) on the car...

[Bubstr]

Well,
1. External fuel shut off is a good idea
2. We used to have it then some body mandated it's now in reach of the driver. Tracks we used to run at always said right behind the seat, where track could reach it now it's in drivers reach. Which me as RF of (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit most the time.
3. Just cut them off, a simple set of shears would work as fast as mangled fasteners.
4. I hate when the rule book sets up the race car. Hate it, and we do have a limiter its roll steer becomes too much.

I do agree on the top two and see where your going on the third but would feel it would come off accidentally more than people would want or come off early in a flip and let the roof halo dig in.

1 put 2 shut offs on them if you want, just make one in the same spot where track personal can operate it.
2 quick fasteners have been used on Jet airplanes that fly 1500 mph and the panels don't fall off. Midgets and Sprint cars attach almost all of their panels with them. And like I say, it's not mandatory. If you want a fast exit sometime, you will do it. It should just be standard thing. .
3 the roll steer is not working. I don't like mandating set ups either, but if they can limit how many shocks you have on the left rear because someone is too fast to catch and too hard to figure out, a chain to save lives seems like a bargain. If you know race cars, you know high weight and the J bar angle is what makes them tumble so easy now days.

The last time I saw the need for sheers, they found one 1/2hour later in the pits. their not cheap, but a very good idea to have on hand. That Driver was mad about sitting that long with a broken neck. If he was on fire, I don't suppose he would still be angry.

I'm not arguing these things. I believe they are some of the best ideas to save lives and still not hamper the racing or cost a fortune. Think about these ideas before you nix them. Are there better ideas?

[Stede Bonnet]

I have to disagree with Areo being the culprit that rolls cars over. It keeps them down. What rolls them over is higher centers of gravity, from LR hike and over all raising weight for better weight transfer for forward and side bite. Is it easier to push a refrigerator over by pushing at the bottom or top? Your center of gravity is where forces push. If you raise that point, the car will tumble easier. Fairly simple. Remember the old flat running cars? They slid a lot more. Now that they get up in the air, they get more than their wish for side bite at times. There is your problem. How do you fix it, when everyone runs on the edge.?


And that Refrigerator is now a 1/3 of the way flipped when they on the gas..some cars are 1 foot or more higher on the drivers side now...Nose digs in tire digs in you gone...Its not Areo...


Modern setups are the way way they are because of the aerodynamics a late model brings. If you took away some of that aero, the setups would go away, because the cars would be tighter than bull's a*shole.


NO!


Too me what has changed most is the speed into the corner, thus more likely to flip on some tracks with character.

Name one person that has flipped that wasn't on entry to the middle of the corner?

I think we're all talking about the same thing just arguing over the path that got us here. It all started back when the shock behind was introduced. Shock behind gave great traction but handful to drive. After that the setups kept evolving to calm the cars back down and make it more driveable. The way to make them drivable was softening the RF, but once you get soft enough so the car isn't pulling wheelies you lose your drive and the frame hits the track. To fix that you use bumps and other sophisticated suspension items pinning the RF and keeping the nose down. The end product is a car with great traction and high corner speed, but a really horrible attitude for safety.

I agree with "flagone" the aero has gotten crazy and needs reigning in to help reduce corner speeds, but that's only one part of the evolved setup/attitude issue. I think getting the cars back to a mid 90's attitude would be safer and less costly to run. You could start by enforcing the old body rules that said the bottom edge of the nose could be no higher than 6 inches from ground. This would take away a lot of the suspension travel on RF. Then do like he said and get the cars back to having equal doors, no splitters, flat flippers, etc. The best way to make things happen isn't mandating everyone throw away their stuff, but increase the minimum weight on the cars running exotic and lower the weight on a car that incorporates all the changes. Soon racers will change on their own to get the weight advantage. This is how Havatampa got everyone to get ride of the slope nose and run the stock appearing STARS type noses, a weight break. Just my thoughts.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

I think they got a 50 lb weigh break for stock noses. That's when Bloomquist was running the Ford Probe nose.
I also seem to remember the Ford engines getting a weight break too.

[Cardirt0]

You Know what the say .. When someone DIES they will make Changes...It seams like someone has too get killed for them too do something...

[BloomerHarvickFan]

You Know what the say .. When someone DIES they will make Changes...It seams like someone has too get killed for them too do something...

That's what's been running through my head reading this thread. And not just anybody. Until a "big" name gets seriously injured or dies, it will never change. Just like Nascar. Earnhardt wasn't the first driver killed, just the most important.

[Cardirt0]

That's what's been running through my head reading this thread. And not just anybody. Until a "big" name gets seriously injured or dies, it will never change. Just like Nascar. Earnhardt wasn't the first driver killed, just the most important.

And thats sad... The Kings Grandson die they looked at and did a few things...Dale died and the Roof Craved in...I bet Dale E would be Happy too know his death may have saved more then 1 person..

[BloomerHarvickFan]

And thats sad... The Kings Grandson die they looked at and did a few things...Dale died and the Roof Craved in...I bet Dale E would be Happy too know his death may have saved more then 1 person..

Possibly his own son's life. I mean look at his concussions, and that's with all the newer safety equipment. Imagine if it hadn't been implemented.

[Cardirt0]

Possibly his own son's life. I mean look at his concussions, and that's with all the newer safety equipment. Imagine if it hadn't been implemented.

I think he may have been kill on that one hit...dale jr.. His boy may have too stop racing , BUT may be a round too have Kids...And not Dead thanks too HIM...You are so right....