Safety equipment and accident question involving Eldora fatality

[Stede Bonnet]

I didn't want to post this in with the prayers and rip's as it would be distracting from the point of those posts. I'm in the process of designing building my own chassis because I just don't like the direction that modern DLM's have gone in regards to performance and most assuredly safety. So far I've incorporated a maximum allowed dropped deck with metal angled away from drivers right shoulder with a raised halo to enhance escapability. On top of halo I've welded in expanded metal covering the top to keep cage from sinking into track surface during roll over in case roof becomes detached and will not be using a Jbar at all. I also may use a double main hoop.

The only pics I could find of Mr Unger's car show only a regular aluminum seat, head support on RS only, no full containment. I'm not a proponent of mandatory full containment because in most designs it significantly impairs escapability during a fire. However I am exploring some alternatives that address this.

I wasn't in attendance so I don't know what happened, but I try to use every accident like this, whether it's fatal or handicapping as an opportunity to improve the design of my cars. So if someone feels comfortable enough to share what they saw happen, you don't have to be gory graphic, you can post here or PM me. I've heard he hit on the drivers side, but I don't know if another car t-boned him or if he hit the wall with the driver side.

I've already heard some clamoring for mandatory Hans devices, but if he was injured from side impact as described, Hans offers little or no protection for that, only a full containment seat or properly installed window net or left side head rest would.

Did the car ever turn over?
Was the car T-boned on driver side?
Did car hit wall drivers side first?
What were the circumstances?

I want only to use Mr Unger's sacrifice to save others and make safer race cars.

Thank you for your help.

[Krooser]

I HEARD he took a hard hit to the wall with the driver's side door area.

[billetbirdcage]

Complete guess on my part but likely what happened from what little I know about the wreck:

Head likely impacted the wall, from not having a containment seat or window net. This is what happened to Brian Harris several years ago, that he sustained a pretty good head injury.



"The night of Harris’ crash, he was piloting the car without the state-of-the-art seat, and the left side of his helmeted head hit the roll bar when the car struck the wall." Says rollbar but I remember it being said he hit the wall with his head

read full article here: https://frontporchexpressions.com/2010/04/13/898/

[billetbirdcage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOsoNGwDTcg

Check out the 2 min mark

[Stede Bonnet]

Thanks I checked out the article and the video, both were informative and helpful. Thank you. I'll probably end up branded the fool, but I just think the avenue that DLM setups have taken is too prone to flipping and therefore is inherently overly dangerous. I plan to pursue a different approach that doesnt involve j-bars. Our sport tends to be a "Monkey see, Monkey do" in its trends, instead of one of individual thought and creativity. Anyway thanks again and if you have any safety based ideas or designs you want to share feel free.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Thanks I checked out the article and the video, both were informative and helpful. Thank you. I'll probably end up branded the fool, but I just think the avenue that DLM setups have taken is too prone to flipping and therefore is inherently overly dangerous. I plan to pursue a different approach that doesnt involve j-bars. Our sport tends to be a "Monkey see, Monkey do" in its trends, instead of one of individual thought and creativity. Anyway thanks again and if you have any safety based ideas or designs you want to share feel free.

Why is a panhard bent in a j shape more dangerous than a straight one?

[Stede Bonnet]

Why is a panhard bent in a j shape more dangerous than a straight one?
The shape isn't the issue, its the manner in which they are applied. A J-bar thru its, downward to the right angle and its natural arc of travel raises the rear of the car higher during cornering as well as the CG and the mass in the rear of the car. This angle of attack promotes excellent side bite, yes but puts the car in a vulnerable state, essentially positioning the car to vault over and flip if its bumped or runs thru a hole or rut wrong. A pan hard bar conversely is typically flat and doesn't promote as much mechanical side bite but also less likely to pop the car over. I realize with the modern setups on bumps and so forth, with the car positioned, "FDAU" works great for aero and side bite, but maybe there is a better way to generate side bite without risking so many racers ending up on their lids with concussions and trapped in burning cars. I understand the whole setup promotes the, "FDAU" attitude, but minus the J-bar it wouldn't be as easy to flip. People get so use to being Lemmings they forget how to think for themselves and/or lack the courage to venture outside the norm. What is it they say, "necessity is the mother of invention", well I think we need something different.

[Matt49]

Flat panhard bars work on pavement. I doubt it could ever work on dirt. And by "work" I mean be competitive. There simply is not enough grip to produce the weight transfer required to achieve the side bite required to get the car to stick in the corners. Not without REALLY slowing the car down...back to the "work" statement.
Side bite is ALL about lateral weight transfer.
I agree that we cannot pretend that safety issues don't exist but we also must acknowledge the laws of physics.
J-bar or not, if you come up with a way to generate side bite equal to what a j-bar does, you're going to have the same problem (whether it is one is debatable) that you are describing. Meaning overloaded right side tires (again, debatable).
This is assuming your intent isn't to put a sprint car wing on a late model.

[Stede Bonnet]

How the side bite is achieved is what wrong, not just having it or not. I say there is no debating the fact that cars flip way more than they use to, its a fact. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know running around holding a block over your head is gonna tend to pull you over when direction is changed. I never said what I was gonna do was use a panhard bar or a bud-bar, I only compared it to the j-bar that Masters inquired about. Weight transfer happens whether the body moves or not, a go kart has weight transfer.... Thank you for your input.

[zeroracing]

Yes weight transfers no matter what, but there is a reason that formula type cars often remove anti-roll bars for wet (low grip) conditions...

[Matt49]

I understand the concept of weight transfer. I raced karts for years. Not trying to turn this into an argument but you're trying to solve a problem that can't be solved. Weight transfer is what creates grip. You either want it or you don't.

[Stede Bonnet]

I understand the concept of weight transfer. I raced karts for years. Not trying to turn this into an argument but you're trying to solve a problem that can't be solved. Weight transfer is what creates grip. You either want it or you don't.

As I stated earlier, it's the manner in which the weight transfer is achieved that is flawed.
"Trying to solve a problem that can not be solved", I love that. This is gonna be fun. Thank you all for your input.

Let me ask this question as food for thought, if "j-bars/left side strait bars" were banned tomorrow what would you do to regain your side bite? Think on that for a bit.

[Matt49]

Okay...I'll play...
If j-bars/left side straight bars were banned, one would likely need to raise the VCG of the car in order to get side bite back. Or run less static left side weight. With either of these workarounds, we're back to the same problem that you tried to solve by banning the j-bar.
And finally I'll ask the best question of all...
What is your solution to achieving side bite equal to that of a j-bar that prevents a car from have a chance of rolling over?

[Lizardracing]

Where are the references that today's dirt cars flip over more than ever? Who said it was from RS wheel loading? That sounds like a farce. Did someone make up a fact and then argue it's validity?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Where are the references that today's dirt cars flip over more than ever? Who said it was from RS wheel loading? That sounds like a farce. Did someone make up a fact and then argue it's validity?

I don't think I saw a DLM flip, that wasn't because it ramped off the track surface and landed on a surface below track level, until after 2000. They get upside down fairly regularly now.

[JustAddDirt]

single leaf spring. with coil overs, and a lift bar.

or I saw on an old Rayburn once in the 90's
4 link or swing arm (cannot remember) with a single leaf mounted right of pinion center to control side to side movement of rear end

[Stede Bonnet]

Okay...I'll play...
If j-bars/left side straight bars were banned, one would likely need to raise the VCG of the car in order to get side bite back. Or run less static left side weight. With either of these workarounds, we're back to the same problem that you tried to solve by banning the j-bar.
And finally I'll ask the best question of all...
What is your solution to achieving side bite equal to that of a j-bar that prevents a car from have a chance of rolling over?

I promise I'm not trying to rile you up, just to get you to think away from the known. I have my own solution, actually 2 promising ones, but I don't want to share them with the world just yet. Sorry if that sounds like a dodge, I don't mean for it to be. There are several things that are accepted as norms in dirt late model, that may not be 100% true. Prior to the J-bar, shock behind, FDAU setups I was always told you can't or shouldn't use a sway bar on a dirt car. I was told it was a crutch and since beginning my career in 1986 I've never seen a dirt late model with a sway bar outside of an old book I have from 1982. I accepted this as a proven fact and then Bloomquist got a ride driving a Nascar truck in the Mud Summer Classic at Eldora.

Bloomquist is arguably one of the best to get around Eldora and I remember them making a big deal out of him insisting the team remove the sway bar from his truck. So then the Dirt Track Dominator set out to show the Nascar engineers and crew chiefs how we do things on dirt...

Top notch equipment + Hall of Fame driver - Sway Bar = A No-Go.

He ran terribly and to this day every truck, to the best of my knowledge, at the mud summer classic runs a sway bar. Now I don't mention this as the answer to side bite, I don't believe it is, at least not on its own. I only mention this to demonstrate that some of the things we believe to be hard and fast rules about what it takes to be fast in a dirt late model, aren't always so. I've seen a leaf spring car out run a field full of the best 4 link DLM's driven by the best elite drivers in the country, at 2 different tracks on back 2 back nights. I've seen a 4 link, spring in front car with a home built 358 outrun the best equipment money can buy in "on the hook" cars several times on the Southern allstar tour. I saw Jonathan Davenport outrun a field full of FDAU cars with a Rayburn swing arm on a dry slick flat track using a bud-bar... So seeing all these things first hand that I'm told shouldn't or couldn't happen makes me question the validity of the assertion that an FDAU setup with a j-bar is the absolute best and only way to accomplish better traction. I make it a point to study the history of the sport, to observe trends and to ask the questions on how we came to be where we are and could there be another way. In the end, all race cars still work in an "X".

[Matt49]

I remember when I heard about the Bloomquist incident with the sway bar thinking that surely they didn't just take it off and that was the end of it. Surely they compensated with other areas of the car. Apparently not or at least not nearly enough.
Speaking of sway bars. I actually think that the trend of tethering the LF is accomplishing much of the same thing as running a sway bar on the front end...but that's an entirely different discussion
The topic of the evolution of the dirt late model is certainly an interesting one. I just don't want a bunch of rules limiting innovation in the area of suspension. It takes us straight down the path to NASCAR. I've always said that the amount of money it takes to be competitive in a class of racing is directly proportional to the size of the rule book.
As it pertains back to the j-bar discussion, I don't think it is the j-bar per se that is causing more rollovers. I think it is a combination of an overall "softer" setup (less overall roll rate) and the increased VCG associated with the extreme hike of the LR. But these things are what is causing today's dirt late models to be so much faster than the cars of 30 years ago. People give me the argument all the time that lap times aren't that much faster but they are usually just going by qualifying times and track records and such. But if you look at lap times in dry slick conditions, the cars of today are far superior. It is an evolution. That isn't to say that there is not value in revisiting "old technology" to see if it applies within the new parameters that we're operating.
I'll be interested to hear what you come up with.

[Stede Bonnet]

Oh I agree on the rules, my suggestion of no J-bar was just a thought experiment. No, definitely not in favor of suspension limiting rules. As to Bloomer/Sway bar, to my knowledge they set it up how he wanted and it was a dud. The tether deal in regards to being like a sway bar is not 100%. Without having the LF connected to the RF thru the bar, it won't experience any wheel rate change from roll. The tether in my understanding would just tend to tote the LF and put all the load on the RF, which to me is counter to what you'd want from a steering stand point.

Matt49, clear out some room in your message box, I'm trying to send You a PM.

[Matt49]

I agree it isn't 100% the same (tethering the LF). But it actually is not promoting toting of the LF. When the tether catches, the car suddenly is trying to turn unsprung weight into sprung weight. It has a tendency to stabilize the roll center migration and pull the LF back down to the track. In that regard (and only that) it is doing what a sway bar would do.

[RacerX10]

My old rayburn swing arm car had a right side mounted panhard bar. It was terrible in the corners (couldn't ever get side bite on a dry track), but it did go fast in a straight line :)

[MachineMasters]

" I've seen a leaf spring car out run a field full of the best 4 link DLM's driven by the best elite drivers in the country, at 2 different tracks on back 2 back nights."

Please elaborate - would like to hear the winner's name and some of the drivers that were beat by a leaf spring car at two tracks like that. A story like that is great, but it means nothing if not less than nothing without proof (in my opinion). What tracks were they and approximately what year?

[Stede Bonnet]

My old rayburn swing arm car had a right side mounted pan-hard bar. It was terrible in the corners (couldn't ever get side bite on a dry track), but it did go fast in a straight line :)

Rayburn(Swing Arm/Bud-Bar) cars do have a reputation for being that way, I've heard it said, "They'll slide till you hit something", but we had good success with ours. I worked for a team that sold Rayburn's and built a Rayburn inspired car in-house(KMRC/Yellow Jacket). We used the Right side pan-hard bar(Bud-Bar) on every car we ran or built and we never had an issue with side bite, but I had the advantage of my day job being that I worked for Carrera Racing Shocks in Atlanta, so I had access to the latest technology at the time. Its vital to see the whole package in order to achieve its FULL potential. Thanks for input.

[zeroracing]

I am not saying your wrong, but comparing results from multiple years ago to today is not apple to oranges, shocks and cars have developed more and more. That said, the answer is simple, racers will want whatever is faster, if you made a car that the right side hiked up and it carried the RF off the ground but was 1 second a lap faster everybody would buy one. I am looking forward to seeing what your working on, I like any advancement in racing so if it is faster or as fast but easier on parts it will get my attention as well as any other racer. Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing the new creation, just feel the 4 bar currently is king for a strong reason.

[MachineMasters]

to me, if you can make a rayburn/swingarm/budbar/outdated type of car work in today's age, congratulations - you're smarter than every other full-time professional team and chassis builder in the country.

the guys that race for a living, and build cars for a living, are going to race and build whatever is going to make them the most money (wins).

even with the trend of buying speed, surely some of the professionals can think for themselves..

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

to me, if you can make a rayburn/swingarm/budbar/outdated type of car work in today's age, congratulations - you're smarter than every other full-time professional team and chassis builder in the country.

the guys that race for a living, and build cars for a living, are going to race and build whatever is going to make them the most money (wins).

even with the trend of buying speed, surely some of the professionals can think for themselves..

I think we learned last year that intelligent, original, thinking has been missing in the sport.

[CCHIEF]

"I think we learned last year that intelligent, original, thinking has been missing in the sport." ............And was quashed by the powers that be. I believe it's not good for the continued, productive evolution of SLM racing.

[billetbirdcage]

On top of halo I've welded in expanded metal covering the top to keep cage from sinking into track surface during roll over in case roof becomes detached .

You might want to rethink that. I seriously doubt you will be able to get a containment seat in the car with the top of the halo covered with expanded metal. It's hard enough to get them in some cars with nothing on top as many won't go thru the side window in my experience and I'm not talking huge seats for large guys.

[Stede Bonnet]

" I've seen a leaf spring car out run a field full of the best 4 link DLM's driven by the best elite drivers in the country, at 2 different tracks on back 2 back nights."

Please elaborate - would like to hear the winner's name and some of the drivers that were beat by a leaf spring car at two tracks like that. A story like that is great, but it means nothing if not less than nothing without proof (in my opinion). What tracks were they and approximately what year?
Pre-Hook:
1995 HavATampa races
Driver: Stan Massey Won $50K for the weekend
Tracks: Dixie Speedway & Rome Speedway
Competitors: Scott Bloomquist, Ronnie Johnson, Mark Miner, Freddy Smith, Skip Arp, Bill Frye, Dale McDowell, Wendell Wallace and all the other HAT regulars of that era.

I realize this is, "Pre-Hook" but the popular belief at that time was a mono-leaf/coil car was out of date and not competitive against the cutting edge 4 link & Swing Arm cars, especially on a slick track like Dixie was at that time. Rome the next night was the polar opposite, fast, high banked and tacky. My point is that this was not suppose to happen according to conventional wisdom of the time and he nearly did it at Cleveland Speedway against the same collection of competition as well, running second to the Southern Gentleman. So just because something is popular and the accepted pinnacle of technology doesn't mean it is "The End all, Be all". This is merely an example of conventional wisdom or popular belief being proven wrong.

Early Hook:
Another example was in the Late 90's early 00's, after "The Hook" became all the rage, a friend of mine had a Walter Newman car(1996) combo car that he ran conventional with a steel block/aluminum head 358. Buck Simmons and Casey Roberts both drove this car and both had multiple victories in it against the, "On The Hook" cars like Jack Pennington and Tim Headen and others. We took it to the National 100 @ EAMS one year with Buck and after our heat, Steve Francis came by to look under the car because Buck was pulling him off the corners pretty good. If not for an incorrect tire choice and a HP deficiency I believe we could have had a better final result. Later on when Buck changed teams to drive the John Deere car, I went with him and we started out with Rayburn's and won races, before switching to GRT's in late 2001. I've worked on both, won races with both.

[CCHIEF]

That is ancient history (pre hook), period!

[CCHIEF]

I'm 50 ....and been involved and schooled in racing DLM's for 30 years, and still hit the track with off the beaten path stuff ....on testing occasions.

[Bubstr]

I have been around race cars of some sort since the middle 50s. Side bite has always been about center of gravity height and how it transferred weight from one tire to another. Working on a Midget in the fifty's, it got pretty simple. You raise the overall weight of the car, till it bicycled and then lowered it a bit. I think the big thing about why there are so many tumbles today, is we forgot the lowering it a bit part. It doesn't matter what kind of bars ,leafs, coils or what ever they have, everyone has the same physics going on. I think one of the reasons a higher roll center or anti squat values is desirable, is because they work together. More side bite equals more forward bite, because of the higher center of gravity. It's just a matter of saying when enough is enough. The.other part that is causing these tumbles, is the front bumper is close enough to the ground, to catch a berm and start things in motion. It's a given, that everyone likes to keep as much air from going under the car as they can. Stands to reason, some kind of a ski could help this with out letting air under. Simple, not sure how effective. I always say try the simple and cheap solutions first. What do you guys think?

[MachineMasters]

1995 - 2016.. that's 21 years. And before the LR shock behind.

I remember putting a whooping on an entire field of cars back in 1984. Everyone was on leaf springs, and by everyone, I mean there were some really good quality drivers there, and I smoked them with my panhard bar equipped link suspension car.

I can make fun statements, too...

Getting back to the point - modern dirt cars are not safe. Right side exit needs to happen for EVERYBODY, with helmet and head and neck restraint on. Until this happens, we're going to continue injuring people, burning people, or worse..

[Stede Bonnet]

...Getting back to the point - modern dirt cars are not safe. Right side exit needs to happen for EVERYBODY, with helmet and head and neck restraint on. Until this happens, we're going to continue injuring people, burning people, or worse..

I agree with this. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the rest.

[Stede Bonnet]

Just got an update from someone close to the family that Shane did NOT have a head, neck or spinal injury, so it appears his head/helmet didn't make contact with the wall, as had been speculated. Internal injuries was listed as the cause. Frame was said to be about 6" out of square and damage was focused around LR 4 bar bracket area. Just an unfortunate situation all around. Even though my ideas and desires to build a safer car weren't all met with the reception or dialog I had hoped for, I'm gonna keep working. On to the next topic I suppose.

[a25rjr]

Pre-Hook:
1995 HavATampa races
Driver: Stan Massey Won $50K for the weekend
Tracks: Dixie Speedway & Rome Speedway
Competitors: Scott Bloomquist, Ronnie Johnson, Mark Miner, Freddy Smith, Skip Arp, Bill Frye, Dale McDowell, Wendell Wallace and all the other HAT regulars of that era.

I realize this is, "Pre-Hook" but the popular belief at that time was a mono-leaf/coil car was out of date and not competitive against the cutting edge 4 link & Swing Arm cars, especially on a slick track like Dixie was at that time. Rome the next night was the polar opposite, fast, high banked and tacky. My point is that this was not suppose to happen according to conventional wisdom of the time and he nearly did it at Cleveland Speedway against the same collection of competition as well, running second to the Southern Gentleman. So just because something is popular and the accepted pinnacle of technology doesn't mean it is "The End all, Be all". This is merely an example of conventional wisdom or popular belief being proven wrong.

Early Hook:
Another example was in the Late 90's early 00's, after "The Hook" became all the rage, a friend of mine had a Walter Newman car(1996) combo car that he ran conventional with a steel block/aluminum head 358. Buck Simmons and Casey Roberts both drove this car and both had multiple victories in it against the, "On The Hook" cars like Jack Pennington and Tim Headen and others. We took it to the National 100 @ EAMS one year with Buck and after our heat, Steve Francis came by to look under the car because Buck was pulling him off the corners pretty good. If not for an incorrect tire choice and a HP deficiency I believe we could have had a better final result. Later on when Buck changed teams to drive the John Deere car, I went with him and we started out with Rayburn's and won races, before switching to GRT's in late 2001. I've worked on both, won races with both.

Was Stan driving for Marvin Harris then?....If so, EPJ won several races in one of Marvins mono-leaf Warriors!

Marvin had a few tricks up his sleeve! lol

[Stede Bonnet]

Was Stan driving for Marvin Harris then?....If so, EPJ won several races in one of Marvins mono-leaf Warriors!

Marvin had a few tricks up his sleeve! lol

No, it was RSD Enterprises(Ronnie Dobbins), Shane Clanton's old team. Malcuit powered Mastersbilt and Mark Miner was his team mate.

Thank you, for your inquiry and enthusiasm.

[old fan]

and Mark still races once in a while

[Krooser]

old fan has been on the leading edge of seat design for the past several years... he's even got a new design that 'flips up'...

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a385/krooser/shop%20pictures/pottyt1.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/krooser/media/shop%20pictures/pottyt1.jpg.html)