UMP / HOOSIER Tire Issues. Racers / Promoters Why 20's instead of 40's?

[HoosierDirtFan]

So Slick Sammy Driggers and his partner kin crime Brian Carter are Now convinced that 20's on the LR and RF will work at every track. Eldora had unusual weather and is a far different track than others. In addition, I will say there were more tires sold at Eldora than any other previous year. This benefits UMP and the Purple Mofia (Hoosier) only.

Yes it worked at Eldora but that is a unique track and work for them but it doesn't mean it will work at the tracks you race at on a weekly basis.

So here are the only questions I pose for our local racers, race promoters, and specifically to Hoosier and UMP:

1) Why 20's? Why not go all 40's? Other racing sanctions are going harder on tires, Why go soft? (More money for UMP and Hoosier is not an expectable answer!)

2) Drivers Would 20's last on the RF and LR during the summer months at your tracks?

3) Same question for Promoters?

4) Why would a rae track / promoter support or allow these rules when they know is cost the racers more? Would a racer go to another track that supports a hard tire rule?

5) Why not go all 40's instead of a 20/40 combination? A 20/40 combination will not always work at your track.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Copied off the STL RACING forum but also added a question and a couple of remarks.

[old fan]

Really Ruhlman bought 4 tires for the whole weekend the summer nats ran on that coMbo also the lucas race this weekend was basically on that tire rule also , the drivers loved it

[racedad11]

Figures he would be the first one to reply to this. Starting to think he`s Sam himself. Unfortunatly, to me anyway, that's all it comes done to is more money in everybody pockets but the race teams. They are doing the same thing on the modified side of things also. Also Ruhlman is a tire dealer. So the buying 4 tires thing is laughable

[old fan]

I know a local driver from our area that used 5

[Cardirt0]

Why dumb rules cause dumb people run it......Its all ways the same people that run it . Dont think like the people that use it...Or people that watch it...Problem is the people that run it OWN it....Why only 1 tire company they pay a bribe and thats all you can get then....
When NALMS ran they had 2 tires and the racing was Great . The last year that they ran 2 tires Comp. they had 2 drivers not on the same tire make running 1st and 2nd.. and Danville was packed they were at the top of the heap .. The next year they went to 1 tire and they were gone in 3 years....Lots of the cars that ran the tire they dropped..had to paid more for there hoosier (get even for not using there tires) and just stopped racing with them .. Poof they died.... Some of the Best racing I seen was when NALMS ran 2 makes of tires...

[old fan]

Why not run 70's then

[old fan]

http://www.racestarpublications.com/nalms.html

[clayman2]

so the purple people would be stupid to want to run 40s wouldn't sell as many and if they think this is so great then why not quit making any thing but 20s and 40s ? that way every track in America could run that same rule !!

[tb1545]

A lot of what ive heard over the years is harder tires= more legal prep needed and more benefit gained by using illegal treatments than whats gained with a soft tire. Also, with a softer tire, tire wear and tire management become a bigger factor through out the course of a 100 lap race.
But in my opinion, a tire rule that is good for 100 lap race or a "top of the food chain" type series usually isnt the answer for weekly racing, but a lot has to do with the individual tracks size and surface.

[Cardirt0]

http://www.racestarpublications.com/nalms.html

Well the real reason is when they dropped American Racer a lot of drivers stop racing with them and it killed them..6 or 7 of the top cars Went and raced some were else...Ask the 47 Steve Hilliard He was so Mad that they dropped AR tires....

[TALON75]

I think there may be a few tracks where it might not work well but for most it could. I had the same feelings as the OP before Eldora, and was pretty blown away at how well the tires held up the whole weekend. I think a 20/40 option would be a good idea just in case you needed it for rf/lr, but you will need a very abrasive track to get any heat into a rf 40 that is not cut or siped.

[JustAddDirt]

Same thing they did for the UMP modified class. They had a test session after the UMP nationals for the A40s tire in 2014 and they seemed fine on all corners. (probably cool weather)made them mandatory by a certain date in 2015, and no more A40 compound.

fast forward a couple months at beginning of 2015 and in the Midwest they tires are being burnt up and peeling off after a 8 lap heat race. especially on the RR.
So they did not take away the A40 compound and allowed it until July 1 2016

Now for 2016 they must have changed the chemical compound of it a bit, but I still will not run one on the RR. Burns them up too fast on higher speed tracks. Eldora is High Speed, but is not abrasive, other regions of the US the dirt is way more abrasive, and the A40S mod tires eats itself alive, unless you know what to do to it to prep it.

gotta love how they are mandating the LM tire.... More money in UMP's pocket.

Why not go with a D21/55 rule?
tires are cheaper...
oh wait a minute, if you are a big team and want a D21 compound in a LM20 casing....Hoosier will do it if you, order enough of them. (hence I believe is what happened with the big Eldora tire lawsuit)

[Cardirt0]

Why do they make ALL them tires, if no one can use 1/2 of them .Can someone tell me why...

[Cardirt0]

gotta love how they are mandating the LM tire.... More money in UMP's pocket

At one time American Racer said they pay in too the Point fund even if the other tire com. got to sell there tires...

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Really Ruhlman bought 4 tires for the whole weekend the summer nats ran on that coMbo also the lucas race this weekend was basically on that tire rule also , the drivers loved it

Not all drivers loved it. Eldora appreciated Ruhlmans donation.

[old fan]

Out of 108 drivers do really think all drivers would've loved it esp the ones that never ran that tire and who knows what the tire rule will be in the future

[blncfn57]

Not all drivers loved it. Eldora appreciated Ruhlmans donation.

The guy that finished 2nd ran the same tires thursday and friday. New ones on saturday. Better than having a trailer full of tires that are all doped just a little different.

[old fan]

An owner told me it takes 3 hours to prep one tire that could get a little time consuming

[Bubstr]

Sure, it's a money grab and the racers, track owners or promoters and the series are making it easy. The racers cheat. The tracks or promoters want that kick back and the series now has a tire cheating problem to cure. Convenient, I would say.

First off, It is easier and more effective to cheat a harder tire into a softer one. That will be the reason everyone gets stuck with the LM20. If they go with the no grooving, it sells tires faster, because when the edge goes away the tire is done. If they where really interested in saving the racer a little money, a rule that allowed re grooving on the same stock pattern. This would give enough edge for another race.

Most of the doping comes when too hard a tire is mandated and you have a edge with a softer one. The switching of casings comes when the mandated tire is too soft to really lean on. The later is easier to catch, because the tire make up is different. The soft tire mandate makes doping useless and the money rolls in thanks to the cheaters and thieves. You can fix anything for a price.

[old fan]

Well the real reason is when they dropped American Racer a lot of drivers stop racing with them and it killed them..6 or 7 of the top cars Went and raced some were else...Ask the 47 Steve Hilliard He was so Mad that they dropped AR tires....why the need to carry more tires then needed

[old fan]

Drivers Would 20's last on the RF and LR during the summer months at your tracks can someone say summer nationals

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The guy that finished 2nd ran the same tires thursday and friday. New ones on saturday. Better than having a trailer full of tires that are all doped just a little different.

The rule has little to do with doping. And the guys with the cash can carry all the tires they want. Those who can't sure could benefit from grooving to extend life.

The track was very easy on tires Thursday, so no surprise on using them two days. That won't be the norm. The racing was artificially damaged by hurting guys who drive straight. The laps were painfully slow. It wasn't great.

[Kromulous]

40's all the way around would make the cars painfully slow. I would guess 1 second a lap maybe more, particularly with no siping or grooving.

20's on the RF and LR will last any Summer Nats race, they will last any 100 lapper if you dont abuse them, but thats where the racing comes in.

Crate cars run 40's all around, and the cut the tires up like Swiss cheese literally. Take 6 razor blades about 1/8" apart and cut around, circumstantially and across, all blocks to get them to work.

The distinction from grooving and siping or not is key.

[a25rjr]

Mark Richards said during their testing for the W100, grooved and siped tires were 6 tenths faster than non! That's huge!

[westlingracing]

My perspective. 2 car team very budget oriented. Normally we run 40-50 shows a year. We buy lots of used tires in a season. Actually only bought 4 new ones all season. Probably 40 used ones.
Going to no grooving or siping saves a ton of labor and will extend the life of the tire a ton. I get close to 20 nights on a pair of front 20s by not over cutting them. Lr 20s I get 4-6 nights out of and normally cut them pretty good. Not cutting or siping will help even more. People talk about losing edges. Every race we flip the tire and you usually get a good edge back. Rr40 really needs to be siped or they need a different tread pattern. That block pattern could be changed and I'd be happy.
One thing about all 40s is I could run a whole season on fronts and probably half season on a lr40 but the problem with the 40 is it will just get harder and after 6 or 8 nights still look good but not be an effective tire. Only the guys buying new every couple weeks will be fast, and there will be a ton of good looking used 40s on the market cheap., But too hard to be any good.
Personally I like the 20/40 deal with no siping just change the tread pattern a little.
I did the MLRA wrs 55 tire deal for years. And bought used tires all the time but had to treat them to soften them back down. Still not as good as new but couldn't afford new.
No real reason to treat a 20, if anything let them out to dry and use them when it looks like the track might take rubber.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

My perspective. 2 car team very budget oriented. Normally we run 40-50 shows a year. We buy lots of used tires in a season. Actually only bought 4 new ones all season. Probably 40 used ones.
Going to no grooving or siping saves a ton of labor and will extend the life of the tire a ton. I get close to 20 nights on a pair of front 20s by not over cutting them. Lr 20s I get 4-6 nights out of and normally cut them pretty good. Not cutting or siping will help even more. People talk about losing edges. Every race we flip the tire and you usually get a good edge back. Rr40 really needs to be siped or they need a different tread pattern. That block pattern could be changed and I'd be happy.
One thing about all 40s is I could run a whole season on fronts and probably half season on a lr40 but the problem with the 40 is it will just get harder and after 6 or 8 nights still look good but not be an effective tire. Only the guys buying new every couple weeks will be fast, and there will be a ton of good looking used 40s on the market cheap., But too hard to be any good.
Personally I like the 20/40 deal with no siping just change the tread pattern a little.
I did the MLRA wrs 55 tire deal for years. And bought used tires all the time but had to treat them to soften them back down. Still not as good as new but couldn't afford new.
No real reason to treat a 20, if anything let them out to dry and use them when it looks like the track might take rubber.

I agree with most of what you said, are in the same boat, but the flipping rarely works for us. That trailing edge is usually really proud and will tear like crazy if you don't at least grind it down some. Then, you have two rounded edges after you run it again. I often hit the blocks on edge with a grooving iron to make the blocks look fresh again, just a little smaller. Works for us.

[old fan]

Mark Richards said during their testing for the W100, grooved and siped tires were 6 tenths faster than non! That's huge! 3 teams told me this past weekend it takes 3 hours to work on one tires x that's by 4 or 5 etc and what do you have

[Krooser]

At Shawano I see guys buying 3 new rock hard WISSOTA tires per night then spend hours grooving and siping... 20's would end most of that.

[TALON75]

Not all drivers loved it. Eldora appreciated Ruhlmans donation.

Who said they didn't like it besides Oneal(DOD interview) , everyone I talked to were good with it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Who said they didn't like it besides Oneal(DOD interview) , everyone I talked to were good with it.

Off the too of my head, Erb sounded less than pleased.

They just changed what type of tire magic is neded and crippled some peoples cars.

[RoundNrOUND]

This will not get rid of tire prep, if anything it will further promote treating tires. That's put this in prospective so everyone understands. Richard's says that there was a .6 difference a LAP in siping & grooving compared to not. So now we have a baseline to think about, what's the difference between a prepped up set of 20's with a RR 40 when the track is black as coal and ripping of RF's? My guess after 15-20 laps it's hitting that same .5-.6 number that Richard's brought up earlier. You have to realize that not all prep softens tires, some of its main purposes is to strengthen the tire and help it not drop off in speed as the laps click off. FYI

[old fan]

Off the too of my head, Erb sounded less than pleased.They just changed what type of tire magic is neded and crippled some peoples cars. every body had the same package poor ERB

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

every body had the same package poor ERB

Tires are supposed to be part of the game. Picking the right tires is a part of it.

[old fan]

Not under UMP or Lucas got 2choices in Lucas and and who says this the new rules it might be 20 40 no siping etc

[Barbecueboy]

Not under UMP or Lucas got 2choices in Lucas and and who says this the new rules it might be 20 40 no siping etc

Someone should cut and sipe on your noggin to see if we can bring back any life to it.....you be trippin litey.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Not under UMP or Lucas got 2choices in Lucas and and who says this the new rules it might be 20 40 no siping etc

And Lucas Oil Series is clown college central. All they are going to do is turn this sport into NASCRAP. Then Forrest Lucas will be gone some day and leave the excrement on the floor.

[old fan]

OK so what tire rule

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

OK so what tire rule

Depends on where you live. 3 choices, do what you want and race.

[old fan]

Exactly and guys like that Rule in Ump

[Cardirt0]

every body had the same package poor ERB

Erb Is my Friend you dont want to start on him cause I will be hunting you...

[Cardirt0]

Tires are supposed to be part of the game. Picking the right tires is a part of it.

The more they try too make Them all the same, the more they are not...Look how bad It F==Ked up NASCAR car...Now they doing it too SLM........

[Kromulous]

Exactley, open all, cheat em up whatever, have fun.

Pass a size hoop, and have a nice day.

[Bubstr]

Exactley, open all, cheat em up whatever, have fun.

Pass a size hoop, and have a nice day.

This sounds like a good and fair plan. If there are specific chemicals that are health concerns, not day to day household items, specify and make the penalty permanent. Make three compounds available to race and if they are miss-marked, Make the penalties permanent. The ones that get miss-marked tires, know they are getting them. That is why they had to buy a big lot to get them. No matter how you write rules, there will always be some kind of advantage that needs addressing. By opening up the rules, it gives more legal tire selection and less options to gain a unfair advantage that would be small at best. If they want to take siping and needling away, fine, but should be able to re groove on factory pattern. Just making groove wider to get a new edge. This would allow the used tire buyer a way to save money, at the cost of a little performance, as it is now.

[Kromulous]

Best bet would be for the Sanctioning Bodies to work directly with Hoosier and American Racer and have them only produce Late Model tires in 3 or 4 compounds and tread patterns.

Then you can have an open tire rule, or make it no grooving and siping, only buffing.

[dirty bert]

Exactley, open all, cheat em up whatever, have fun.Pass a size hoop, and have a nice day.Let em dope em up an turn em loose ,most of your local racers doing it now they lieing if they say there not

[old fan]

(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) only 43 lates under UMP rules 2k to win 75 mods 3k to win nice format also lates first or second in the dash nothng new there but every one else runs a b main,mods heat winner moves on in heat every one else b or c main

[old fan]

crickets crickets and more crickets

[old fan]

this rule concept is not new wissotta has been doing it according there website since 2015

[t.nie]

Hoosier doesn't want to compete with AR. Hoosier likes having guaranteed income. For what its worth, and it was many years ago, a guy from the Midwest went to a race in the south and his crew chief said to me "we were the best of the Hoosier guys and qualified 9th. The rest were on AR and we just couldn't run with them."

Two companies means competition, racers are going to use whatever is superior. And to make a superior tire (assuming the other companies tires are better) means R&D, and R&D is money spent, cutting into profit.

The last thing Hoosier wants is competition. And they have spent a lot of money in court making sure their binding agreements are legal and binding to keep competition out of the tire choice in as much racing as they can control.

So basically while it's a great debate, people are kind of stuck with whatever rules Hoosier decides is in Hoosier's best interest where Hoosier is in control.

[old fan]

wake up tnie UMP has always been hoosier what major sanctioning body for late models run american racers also and the sanctioning bodies are in control; not hoosier american racer can't cut the mustard with quanity of tires either for 13 classes now can they american racers are allowed in woolms but guess what is winning and he would be winning on any tire

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

wake up tnie UMP has always been hoosier what major sanctioning body for late models run american racers also and the sanctioning bodies are in control; not hoosier american racer can't cut the mustard with quanity of tires either for 13 classes now can they american racers are allowed in woolms but guess what is winning and he would be winning on any tire

You edited this. I still can't read it. American Racer is a superior tire depending on the track in question and the comparable compounds you choose to compare. The 56 AR is vastly superior to the Hoosier 1640/LM40.

The Hoosier can't heat cycle for crap. The 56 just keeps going and going until you wear it out.

[old fan]

really no one in woolms has done well with it and they have a open tire rule most of the season and its not about being superior but having enough and delivering enough tires for i think last count was 13 classes

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

really no one in woolms has done well with it and they have a open tire rule most of the season and its not about being superior but having enough and delivering enough tires for i think last count was 13 classes

13 classes? This is a LM board. No top WoO team runs AR. Of course it hasn't won. Plus, the issue I described is for second and third use. Not a new tire. I have actually won on 3 year old ARs.

UMP doesn't even have the balls to throw out a World 100 "winner" with an illegal LR suspension. They are useless. You are defending the indefensible.

[Barbecueboy]

crickets crickets and more crickets

Did somebody ask the question of what planet you actually came from???^^^^^^^^

[Barbecueboy]

Best bet would be for the Sanctioning Bodies to work directly with Hoosier and American Racer and have them only produce Late Model tires in 3 or 4 compounds and tread patterns.

Then you can have an open tire rule, or make it no grooving and siping, only buffing.

You mean like a race ready tire?

I like that idea.

[old fan]

Case bolt runs American racer and yes it's a lm board but you have deal with sanction to race suspension wise it has to be illegal and you forgot about lucas

[Barbecueboy]

Boomhower be trippin this morning^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[chupp n bloomer fan]

13 classes? This is a LM board. No top WoO team runs AR. Of course it hasn't won. Plus, the issue I described is for second and third use. Not a new tire. I have actually won on 3 year old ARs.

UMP doesn't even have the balls to throw out a World 100 "winner" with an illegal LR suspension. They are useless. You are defending the indefensible.I'm afraid to ask, but what LR illegal suspension are you talking about?

And 100%, they shouldn't mandate Hoosiers. It's all about $$$$. AR is a good tire. But money talks.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Boomhower be trippin this morning^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You talked about his beloved UMP and Hoosier. It's on like Donkey Kong.

[Barbecueboy]

would be great if Yokohama would jump into the tire game for DLM.......or someone similar.

Anytime there is a monopoly it's only good for the monopolizer............the monopolized are reduced to sheep that must follow the rest of the heard.

Some good healthy tire competition would be a nice change of pace...imo.