Conversation on Shocks

[Cranky]

I am a budget racer and have done lots of experimenting with chassis set ups etc. Obviously one of the main sources of traction and handling is shocks. What is everyones thoughts on the best shocks out now? The best shock builder and the best shock service as in technical support? What are the costs that everyone is paying on average for a set of shocks and/or revalving existing shocks? I am on a set of Integras right now and I havent a clue about shocks. I just send them off to have them "Built" and hang them on when they come back. Ive never gotten set up sheets or advice in tuning ever....What and who are you guys recommendations for shocks and builders that actually help their customers?

[3wheelinphotos]

You need to look in your region who has cars up front, them go speak to those guys about they experience they have had with they shock builder. Some guys provide a TON of info on what to do with your shocks when you work with them and some builder send you nothing. Also need to find a person who is gonna be willing to help you thru the learning curve your going thru some guys have left a lot of newbies out to dry them gives the rest of the shock builders a bad name. If ya need anymore help with this feel free to give me a call Mike @ Warrior Race Cars/1G Shock Service 865.573.2411

[Kromulous]

Alot of smoke and mirrors in shocks, and thats from someone in the game.

Overall i have been impressed with Envy, he set up a set of M2's with Penske valves that i would put up against anything, traction wise.

[Punisher88]

Second the envy vote. Second to none.

[Stede Bonnet]

I am a budget racer and have done lots of experimenting with chassis set ups etc. Obviously one of the main sources of traction and handling is shocks. What is everyones thoughts on the best shocks out now? The best shock builder and the best shock service as in technical support? What are the costs that everyone is paying on average for a set of shocks and/or revalving existing shocks? I am on a set of Integras right now and I havent a clue about shocks. I just send them off to have them "Built" and hang them on when they come back. Ive never gotten set up sheets or advice in tuning ever....What and who are you guys recommendations for shocks and builders that actually help their customers?

Speaking strictly Mono-tube vs Mono-tube, brand to brand shouldn't make much difference if any at all. If the builder knows what he's doing he should be able to make one brand perform(dampening) the same as another. Just like in engines and matching the power curve to the car/conditions/driver, you match the dampening curve in the same way. Lets say for example you had a set of AFCO's that suit you and your car perfectly, a competent builder should be able to build you a set of Ohlins or Bilsteins or JRI's or Genesis or whatever's, that perform exactly the same for you. The only limiting factors from shock to shock to me would be oil quality and design limitations, such as one brand may have a wider adjustment potential built into its basic design. What ever brand you have already invested in should be fine, you just need a builder who knows his way around them to build them to suit you. Lots of good shocks being built today, I like Advanced(ARS) and Genesis.

ARS - http://www.advancedracingsuspensions.com/
Genesis - http://www.genesisshocks.com/

[JustAddDirt]

Speaking strictly Mono-tube vs Mono-tube, brand to brand shouldn't make much difference if any at all. If the builder knows what he's doing he should be able to make one brand perform(dampening) the same as another. Just like in engines and matching the power curve to the car/conditions/driver, you match the dampening curve in the same way. Lets say for example you had a set of AFCO's that suit you and your car perfectly, a competent builder should be able to build you a set of Ohlins or Bilsteins or JRI's or Genesis or whatever's, that perform exactly the same for you. The only limiting factors from shock to shock to me would be oil quality and design limitations, such as one brand may have a wider adjustment potential built into its basic design. What ever brand you have already invested in should be fine, you just need a builder who knows his way around them to build them to suit you. Lots of good shocks being built today, I like Advanced(ARS) and Genesis.

ARS - http://www.advancedracingsuspensions.com/
Genesis - http://www.genesisshocks.com/


problem is you can have a say...Intergra, and build a Penske to the same dyno curves, and numbers, and it will not perform the same on the car.
I have seen it. (club 29)

you could have say a Bilstein shock, and have a Fox built to the same, and they are a dead up match on the dyno, and they do not work the same on the car.
I have lived that

granted an expert shock would need to know what to do to each of the shock company's piston stacks and bleed orifices, to make them comparable to one another (on the car feel). that takes a lot of R&D time , and a lot of someone's money..

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

problem is you can have a say...Intergra, and build a Penske to the same dyno curves, and numbers, and it will not perform the same on the car.
I have seen it. (club 29)

you could have say a Bilstein shock, and have a Fox built to the same, and they are a dead up match on the dyno, and they do not work the same on the car.
I have lived that

granted an expert shock would need to know what to do to each of the shock company's piston stacks and bleed orifices, to make them comparable to one another (on the car feel). that takes a lot of R&D time , and a lot of someone's money..

The shock dyno only tells you so much about the shock performance. So, that is certainly very possible.

The shaft changes direction very frequently on the race car. Your dyno sheet don't show what happens then.

[Matt49]

Just like MBR said, there is a lot more to shocks than what the dyno can tell you. Sorry, Stede, but you are way off base on this one. Piston design, finish coatings, etc. have a huge impact on how a shock behaves on a race car and it can't be duplicated on any shock dyno that I know of. A shock dyno puts a shock through a constant velocity and changes direction at the same shaft displacement every time. The forces at work on a race car are usually trying to accelerate the shocks velocity, not maintain it. And they change their direction at a wide range of shaft displacements.

[Lizardracing]

Sorta like how an engine dyno doesn't always equate to on track drivability?

[fastford]

I became a huge jerry link fan several years back, helped me more than any one understand what shocks really do, especially when on a soft rt front set up, only problem now is since he went to afco, he is harder to contact......

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Just like MBR said, there is a lot more to shocks than what the dyno can tell you. Sorry, Stede, but you are way off base on this one. Piston design, finish coatings, etc. have a huge impact on how a shock behaves on a race car and it can't be duplicated on any shock dyno that I know of. A shock dyno puts a shock through a constant velocity and changes direction at the same shaft displacement every time. The forces at work on a race car are usually trying to accelerate the shocks velocity, not maintain it. And they change their direction at a wide range of shaft displacements.

You need an electromechanical fatigue testing machine. Then you can do anything you want to the shock and measure response. I have access to servo-hydraulic, but they are too slow for a complete analysis.

[Matt49]

I became a huge jerry link fan several years back, helped me more than any one understand what shocks really do, especially when on a soft rt front set up, only problem now is since he went to afco, he is harder to contact......

Off topic but I guess not really too far off, I've been wondering about his new Afco Technologies shocks.
Has anyone used them or heard anything on them? I can't imagine them not being pretty darn good.

[Stede Bonnet]

problem is you can have a say...Intergra, and build a Penske to the same dyno curves, and numbers, and it will not perform the same on the car.
I have seen it. (club 29)

you could have say a Bilstein shock, and have a Fox built to the same, and they are a dead up match on the dyno, and they do not work the same on the car.
I have lived that

granted an expert shock would need to know what to do to each of the shock company's piston stacks and bleed orifices, to make them comparable to one another (on the car feel). that takes a lot of R&D time , and a lot of someone's money..
it matters as to how sophisticated of dyno you use, I prefer Roerhig. Your right in that if you have a dyno that only gives, for example "peak values", you could build 2 shocks that look alike at peak velocity and not get the same performance on the track. There are dyno's that can measure everything you need them too though, its just a matter of $$$.

[JustAddDirt]

Stead
Are you a driver?
How long ago was that you built thousands of shocks?

[let-r-eat]

What tells me whether a shock is RIGHT or not?

Maintaining the attitude of the race car?
Tire temp management?
Checkered flags?

What tells me it's the RIGHT shock?

[grt74]

Off topic but I guess not really too far off, I've been wondering about his new Afco Technologies shocks.
Has anyone used them or heard anything on them? I can't imagine them not being pretty darn good.

we run them, there as good as anything out there,we've kept up with them on a dyno and they haven't fell off any about 15 races on them

[grt74]

The shock dyno only tells you so much about the shock performance. So, that is certainly very possible.

The shaft changes direction very frequently on the race car. Your dyno sheet don't show what happens then.

you can get shock data from the car,then put it in a program on the dyno,then work off of those graphs
end result same shock no matter who's name is on it,now shock fade is another story,but if your running weekly shows,20-30 laps you won't see much of it either,75-100 laps and fade is a huge factor(heat)

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

What tells me whether a shock is RIGHT or not?

Maintaining the attitude of the race car?
Tire temp management?
Checkered flags?

What tells me it's the RIGHT shock?

Attitude would be a big hell no.

For most people, the stopwatch. Testing with DAQ would work too.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

you can get shock data from the car,then put it in a program on the dyno,then work off of those graphs
end result same shock no matter who's name is on it,now shock fade is another story,but if your running weekly shows,20-30 laps you won't see much of it either,75-100 laps and fade is a huge factor(heat)

If you have a dyno with type of capabilities. There are reputable shock guys that don't have access to such dyno technology.

[let-r-eat]

A traction shock has nothing to do with attitude?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

A traction shock has nothing to do with attitude?

If you take it off and your car looks the same, what is it doing for attitude? Shocks work by moving. They are intended to damp motion. You can build something crazy to act like a prop stick, but that isn't going to be the fastest way.

[let-r-eat]

Originally Posted by let-r-eat View Post
A traction shock has nothing to do with attitude?

MBR"If you take it off and your car looks the same, what is it doing for attitude? Shocks work by moving. They are intended to damp motion. You can build something crazy to act like a prop stick, but that isn't going to be the fastest way."


If the propstick improves aero/increases bar angles etc etc that outweigh the disadvantage of the propstick? I believe you know I'm talking about dynamically balancing the race car.

I think it's important to define what the "right shock" *goal* may be.

It's a plethora of variables. That right front hold down deal.........the traction shock........the ratcheting stuff............They all deal with attitude.

The right shock controls motion to improve traction. A prop stick isn't a shock. You can build a shock to be one but IMO that's not a shock and you must compensate for the motion somewhere else on the car.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Originally Posted by let-r-eat View Post
A traction shock has nothing to do with attitude?

MBR"If you take it off and your car looks the same, what is it doing for attitude? Shocks work by moving. They are intended to damp motion. You can build something crazy to act like a prop stick, but that isn't going to be the fastest way."


If the propstick improves aero/increases bar angles etc etc that outweigh the disadvantage of the propstick? I believe you know I'm talking about dynamically balancing the race car.

I think it's important to define what the "right shock" *goal* may be.

It's a plethora of variables. That right front hold down deal.........the traction shock........the ratcheting stuff............They all deal with attitude.

The right shock controls motion to improve traction. A prop stick isn't a shock. You can build a shock to be one but IMO that's not a shock and you must compensate for the motion somewhere else on the car.

I guess my point is that you can make the car be nose down lr up without any crazy shocks. And you should. No way the benefits outweigh a rigid suspension.

[Kromulous]

Stede, its sounds like you have real shock experience, so i have a question for you? Why do all the shock companies promote a digressive valved over a linear valve? I know the party line, they have more traction, and i think thats a complete load.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Stede, its sounds like you have real shock experience, so i have a question for you? Why do all the shock companies promote a digressive valved over a linear valve? I know the party line, they have more traction, and i think thats a complete load.

I am not Sted, but if you have ridiculous rebound at 1"/sec if will really be crazy at 10" if it isn't digressive.

[zeroracing]

Also to answer Kromulous some in the sports car or F1 type realm will tell you the opposite. That often a linear valve will produce more traction overall, but drivers will not like the feel as much and it will not control body movements as much. But for pure mechanical traction very little dampening and very light springs would be best.

Other side note, it is my understanding that the high frequency pistons that people like on dirt were originally designed for novice drivers that hit curbs on road courses to keep from upsetting the car with dampening too much on those hits.

[Kromulous]

Its already crazy rebound digressive or linear. If u were to do a linear valve you would have to scale it i would think. Also what purpose does the bleed adjustment serve on a linear valved shock? Most DA shocks only manipulate the bleed orifice is my understanding.

What is meant by "High freq" anyway, especially for a shock piston?

Why do say Drivers will not like the feel of a linear valved shock?

Thanks, Krom.

[Stede Bonnet]

Stede, its sounds like you have real shock experience, so i have a question for you? Why do all the shock companies promote a digressive valved over a linear valve? I know the party line, they have more traction, and i think thats a complete load.

Digressive is typically better for slick situations where maintaining traction is a must.
Linear or progressive would be better suited for hooked up, heavy and rough tracks.
These are general rules of thumb, driving style can't be overlooked either. If the driver doesn't like it or feel confident in whats under him it won't be an optimum situation.

[MachineMasters]

One thing to understand is that bleed has a huge effect on rebound in a digressive shock.

For example, Carrera was real big on large bleed digressive shocks. Meaning - there was little damping control at lower shock velocities (1ips - 3ips). Modern/current shocks used in DLM racing have little to no bleed which is what helps keep the car on the RF. This low/no-bleed digressive curve looks and performs entirely different at lower shock velocities. A big bleed digressive shock lets the car 'move around' and can promote weight transfer due little resistance in the shock at low velocities, but also can let the nose pop up in dirty air and give the car a sloppy feeling.

My preferred damping characteristics for each corner are:
LF - linear compression/digressive rebound (the type of curve is least important on this corner)
RF - linear compression/digressive rebound
RR - linear compression and rebound (large bleed w/stiff stack)
LRF - digressive with large bleed
LRR - digressive compression/linear rebound

[Kromulous]

Why do you like the RR set up that way, better feel st speed?

[Brian Gray]

Facts are there things available from different manufacturers that are unique to particular brands. I build them all I've worked with literately thousands of components and shocks have become a passion of mine. The characteristics of certain pistons are most definitely noticeable to the driver yet never show on our oscillator style dynos. Even on the mag I really haven't seen real definable data but driving I can tell a vdp from an mx. Fox has came out with some real good stuff but the variety of choices Penske has is very hard to beat.

Everyone in the know can agree it's not so much the brand it's the person working with you that makes the difference. But the only reason I bothered here was to answer mats question about the new Afcos. Yes they are very good they are quality wise as good as anything Penske or jri have. But along with quality comes a cost and it's on the same level. For the money though I still believe the silver/blue afco monotube shocks are much more bang for the buck . I don't know why every local team isn't on them.

[Matt49]

Everyone in the know can agree it's not so much the brand it's the person working with you that makes the difference.

Truer words never spoken.

[Brian Gray]

For the record, I didn't say it could not be measured. But I personally have experienced some noticeable variances between specific builds that looked nearly identical on a very high tech shock machine. .

I think that speaks volumes.

[fastford]

im on a set of blue afco,s that jerry link did for me just before leaving shy and going to afco, there the best shocks for my application ive ever had. ive talked to jerry several times since his move and im not going to tell on here all we discussed , but I personally feel after talking to him, my old blues are just as good ,for me, as the new ones. I think basically you are paying for what he was already doing and brought to the table at afco.

[fastford]

To say we, "Carrera" were big on big bleed/digressive is a little misleading, like that's all we knew how to do. We built whatever the customer wanted. For example we had an asphalt customer who wanted all his shocks(4-7 valve) on compression from 1 in/sec - 3 in/sec to all be the same, but wanted them to blow off differently. So we built them that way. We also built rear shocks for Talladega cup cars(before the rules change) to qualify that were more than 1500 @ 1 in/sec rebound climging to in excess of #3000(customer specified). Chub Frank, at that time, liked running digressive RS shocks with 5 rebound and 3 compression, but this was in line with the setups of that time and he won the Stars title running exactly that. We built a Magne-shock for the military hummer program that broke their dyno, which sounds bad but that earned us the right to move on to the next level in their trials. So you see we had a broad spectrum of what we could and did do. My main focus was R&D, developing different curves and testing different fluids and components. Carrera's didn't just come in one flavor.

In closing, I have a question for those who believe that some things can't be seen or have not been seen on the dyno. If you can't measure a given designs effect in some way, how do you prove it made a real change and isn't some placebo effect? Their are good dyno's and their are great dyno's, the great ones can tell you everything that's happening. Most "racer" dyno's just don't have the technology to do it, most only give peak velocity dampening numbers. I guarantee the shock companies that developed the parts and shocks know exactly the effects the those parts had before they left the lab and could accurately measure them on their dyno.

one thing that cant be seen on a dyno is how two identical shocks of the dyno will react to two different drivers, i would bet they will have two different opinions , i guess that would be the effect part you speak of, so to me , if the designs are identical, then you cant measure the "effects" of two different drivers.

[Ghopper]

For perspective:
- Great dynos cost ~80k (electro-magnetic). Research level, frequency sweeps, track playback, sine/square/triangle wave possibilities. There are servo hydraulic system that MTS builds for damper testing.
- Good dynos cost ~10k (sinusoidal). Production level, limited frequency input, sine wave.
- Pen dynos confirm if the shock if broke or not. You do not design shock builds with this dyno.


Ghopper

[billetbirdcage]

For perspective:
- Great dynos cost ~80k (electro-magnetic). Research level, frequency sweeps, track playback, sine/square/triangle wave possibilities. There are servo hydraulic system that MTS builds for damper testing.
- Good dynos cost ~10k (sinusoidal). Production level, limited frequency input, sine wave.
- Pen dynos confirm if the shock if broke or not. You do not design shock builds with this dyno.


Ghopper

Good to see you getting to race a little, the euro manufacturers gave you some time off or you back in the states for a little while?

[Kromulous]

What the problem with shocks is no one will share info, and i get it, its $$. Shock Builders are ok, but some i feel are out right crooks, all they do is "rebuild" and dyno a shock and want to charge you $300 bucks, thats complete crap. Most of them have no idea what different pistons do, or frequencies or anything, its just copy this, do that, and buy more stuff for more $$.

Machinemasters, is the 1st post i ever seen on any real info on shocks, something a guy can use and work from. I plan to talk to a "Shock guru" and build from there.

Reason i asked about the RR build he mentioned was, many years ago i used to build my own Modified shocks, QA1 twin tubes. Thats how i built both right sides, Linear, stiff stacks, and biggish bleeds on rebound, and those were some of the best shocks we have ever ran to this day.

[Stede Bonnet]

One thing to understand is that bleed has a huge effect on rebound in a digressive shock.

For example, Carrera was real big on large bleed digressive shocks. Meaning - there was little damping control at lower shock velocities (1ips - 3ips). Modern/current shocks used in DLM racing have little to no bleed which is what helps keep the car on the RF. This low/no-bleed digressive curve looks and performs entirely different at lower shock velocities. A big bleed digressive shock lets the car 'move around' and can promote weight transfer due little resistance in the shock at low velocities, but also can let the nose pop up in dirty air and give the car a sloppy feeling.

My preferred damping characteristics for each corner are:
LF - linear compression/digressive rebound (the type of curve is least important on this corner)
RF - linear compression/digressive rebound
RR - linear compression and rebound (large bleed w/stiff stack)
LRF - digressive with large bleed
LRR - digressive compression/linear rebound

Your critique of Carrera is a bit broad an inaccurate. We didn't just build one kind of shock, with one set of curves, it depended on several variables such as customer preference and application. For example the qualifying shocks we built for the rear of Cup cars at Talledega were similar to todays DLM RF, letting the car fall and then holding it there. We built what suited the setups of the times and customers application, they were not, "one size fits all" and not only in vanilla. Compared to our contemporaries of the times, we had the broadest selection of designs, styles, sizes and curves ahead of anyone, period. With the right equipment and knowledge you build whatever is needed, the trick is knowing whats needed. Cheers.

[7uptruckracer]

^^^^ SO very true even in todays world, they have to work with the spring packages.

[MachineMasters]

Your critique of Carrera is a bit broad an inaccurate. We didn't just build one kind of shock, with one set of curves, it depended on several variables such as customer preference and application. For example the qualifying shocks we built for the rear of Cup cars at Talledega were similar to todays DLM RF, letting the car fall and then holding it there. We built what suited the setups of the times and customers application, they were not, "one size fits all" and not only in vanilla. Compared to our contemporaries of the times, we had the broadest selection of designs, styles, sizes and curves ahead of anyone, period. With the right equipment and knowledge you build whatever is needed, the trick is knowing whats needed. Cheers.

Oh yes, I know.. sorry, wasn't trying to offend. I think Carrera was ahead of its time in the market: super lightweight shocks, PTFE lined shock bodies, 4-lead threads, basevalve, floating rod guide, 48mm piston, checked bleed circuits, real digressive pistons, etc. When they incorporated the Ohlins style rebound adjuster they got even better.

Getting back to the OP, shocks nowadays are all good for the most part - there really aren't any 'bad' shock brands out there. As others have stated, it all comes down to how they're valved. With the type of racing we all do, I'd be VERY impressed if someone could feel a difference between two identical valved shocks from two different brands. On asphalt yes, on dirt, I'm skeptical.

[RCJ]

In reference to the Digressive vs linear.A linear such as a 208/72 will only be at that rate at one velocity,low speeds it is soft ,high speeds it is stiffer.A dig.will be closer to its advertised rate over a much wider range of velocitys thus able to control the inertia of the wheel and tire over a wider range.Any time you talk about shocks you have to ask what are you trying to do.Control the tire over bumps, Change the handling or balance of the car or Hold the body at a certain attitude for aerodynamics.

[Kromulous]

Were looking to get more feel in the car, currently feels disconnected to the track and like its just floating across the surface. What would you suggest to do?

Mods it seems its easier to get a better feel of the track, smaller tires and firmer sidewalls i guess.

Especially in the RR.

Like everyone else nowadays, RF pinned down, a lot of hike, traction is pretty good and the car goes FWD ok, but he keeps telling me over and over the car lacks side-bite on the RR and no feel.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Were looking to get more feel in the car, currently feels disconnected to the track and like its just floating across the surface. What would you suggest to do?

Mods it seems its easier to get a better feel of the track, smaller tires and firmer sidewalls i guess.

Especially in the RR.

Like everyone else nowadays, RF pinned down, a lot of hike, traction is pretty good and the car goes FWD ok, but he keeps telling me over and over the car lacks side-bite on the RR and no feel.

Put a big RR spring in there Krom.

[fastford]

In reference to the Digressive vs linear.A linear such as a 208/72 will only be at that rate at one velocity,low speeds it is soft ,high speeds it is stiffer.A dig.will be closer to its advertised rate over a much wider range of velocitys thus able to control the inertia of the wheel and tire over a wider range.Any time you talk about shocks you have to ask what are you trying to do.Control the tire over bumps, Change the handling or balance of the car or Hold the body at a certain attitude for aerodynamics.

great post RCJ, that pretty much sums it up. when i first tried the soft rt frt on a bump stop , i turned my rebound all the way up on my m2s and i could feel the rt frt hoping or almost kind of vibrating, when i explained this to my shock builder he explained the need for slow speed dampening when doing this, now im no shock expert , but it made since to me so i sent him my shock with all the info he wanted, ie: shock measurement from eye to eye at ride height, static weight on that wheel and several other things , he sent me the shock back and it was night and day , sold me.......

[RCJ]

Krom, we fought the same problem half the year.My go to fix is a 208/72 linear for the r/r ,always worked on the swing arm cars.That also is the r/r shock in the DP1 bilstein package.It helped very little.We wore out the bolt holes on the 4 bar mounts ,jbar and shocks.I came to the conclusion that the r/f is slammed in the ground,l/r is up on the bars and now the l/f is chained or has a lot of rebound maybe the r/r is unable to respond.We started going to old school ways of just tightening the car up.It instantly started working better.

[Kromulous]

We have taken the LF limiter off for now, still run alot of rebound there but the limiter really made the car loose. Now that I am thinking about it more, i believe i should of made a combo of changes, stiffer RR spring as MBR says and then a shock change like you guys are saying, plus kept the LF limited somewhat. This winter i am going to make a refined version that i can adjust easily.

The car ran the best on a 250 RR, far amount of rebound, and a RF stack, a lot of rebound etc. RF had a stop on it, only for bottoming out.

Season is over now, but next year i am thinking a Linear base valve D/A on the RR, probably a Genesis GX2.