RR on ice exit?

[sidewinder69]

How is it possible if you shortened rr rods, dropped j bar on pinion, drop lr and rr bottom rods, took out stagger, took out rf rebound, took out dummy shock compression ,lowered right side air..... Still get in and steer but absolutely no scotch and forward on exit.

[fastford]

are you sure you haven't made the car so tight that your having to break it loose to make it turn? happens a lot, a simple piece of tape on steering wheel can tell a lot......

[sidewinder69]

I thought about it but no I can get im good and the car rotates well

[Stede Bonnet]

Perhaps a bind. Why take rebound out of RF, that'll lose drive? No scotch tells me there is a bind or bad shock w/bent shaft perhaps.

[sidewinder69]

I always though if you take rebound out rf it allow to transfer back to lr for better drive ?

[Matt49]

I always though if you take rebound out rf it allow to transfer back to lr for better drive ?

That is exactly what it does. Taking RF rebound out is a common and quite effective adjustment to help promote drive when the track get slick.

Do you have a lot of lead ballast in your car? If so, how high do you have it all mounted?

[sidewinder69]

I got all the lead right under deck high as possible. One piece above lr and 3 pieces roughly 60 lbs on 5th coil bar towards rear.

[Matt49]

It should transfer weight pretty good then. It's possible that you have too much static left side or not enough rear. Also possible something is binding, bad shock, etc.

[sidewinder69]

52.4 rear percentage

[Matt49]

52.4 rear percentage

That's pretty low in my opinion.

Regardless of chassis make, I've always felt that 53.5 left and 53.5 rear was a good starting point. For slicker conditions, 54-54.5 rear is even better but you have to be sure the car will turn in the center without having to slide it.

[sidewinder69]

i run blue xs battery which i think around 45 lbs was in center of the car, just moved it to above left rear. havent gotten on scales yet but should help a ton. did not know that a percent or 2 would make that much of a difference

[Matt49]

i run blue xs battery which i think around 45 lbs was in center of the car, just moved it to above left rear. havent gotten on scales yet but should help a ton. did not know that a percent or 2 would make that much of a difference

0.5% makes a noticeable difference to me. There IS a reason that guys like Bloomquist work so hard on fuel cell designs that limit the mount of tail weight lost via fuel burn-off.

[CCHIEF]

Your not making and maintaining rr traction. Pretty generic answer, have you tried lowering the rr upper bar a lot @ frame? There are so many questions to be answered about your car, track and tires. Not knowing the car, setup, tires, and tires. it would seem to me you have got the car way too tight overall. What RR tire? 29.0 or 11.0

[sidewinder69]

ItIt's an open 1350. What does lowering rr top rod do ?

[Kromulous]

Takes drive out of the RR, its a good adjustment.

[sidewinder69]

but does it take out scotch of the rr? like where you feel like your somewhat against a cushion so it catches car somewhat so you can start going forward

[Matt49]

If you ever have a car that feels like that, it is way too tight. This will then cause you to turn the wheel left to complete the corner and you will lose all forward bite from there. This is the classic "too tight in, too loose off" condition that most racers tune themselves into and then continue to tighten that car because they are loose off...making the problem worse and worse.
I'd be willing to bet if you put all of your bars back where they were and get your rear percentage up to something more reasonable, you won't be too far off.

[sidewinder69]

thats actually what i am doing . im trying to be careful in diagnosing it correctly , i guess timing would be the more importance of what im trying to deal with because it feels good in the traction and when it slicks its good getting in... its just that point once your leaving center and you need that scotch or forward whatever you want to call it. i wondered if i needed more caster to help load because i have 1.5 and 4.5 as of right now

[Kromulous]

Sidebite? thats what i would referr to that as.

Next year i am going to weld in a new RR mount, and run a stiffer spring, and add about 10 ish degrees of angle to the inside. That and try a 2 stage spring, and maybe a softish bumbstop.

I think he is looking for the car to firm up in the center, this scotch thing, sidebite whatever. I agree if you feel that going in your dead. Free in, and the firm up on the RR in the middle and go with the pedal. Maybe thats all wrong but we have been looking for the same feel.

[sidewinder69]

thats exactly right . looking for some sidebite i guess once i get to center to enhance the exit. i do know my rr shock is leaned in much further than my lr behind

[Dirt_Buster]

Are you losing any in the center? Like is it a little tight at all?

[billetbirdcage]

I'd bet money this is the issue: if the following is true

Is this a rocket? Is your left side % under 54.0 with you in the car?

If so, I've seen this a few times and it's the % and moving the battery from the center of the car around the x member to the LR will generally fix the problem.

Does the car get up on the LR if there is any brown or traction to put the LR tire in but in the dead slick the car is really lazy or don't get up on LR at all?

[Kromulous]

So it's a to low of a lefts side %?

I always figured lowering the leftside % to 52 or so would create more sidebite on the RR. That's all wrong?

[sidewinder69]

It is a barry Wright with around 54 percent left. It does decent if the left rear is in some sort of moisture but totally dead in black... But pictures show it is on bars to some extinct. I do have 5 1/4 drop

[fastford]

thats actually what i am doing . im trying to be careful in diagnosing it correctly , i guess timing would be the more importance of what im trying to deal with because it feels good in the traction and when it slicks its good getting in... its just that point once your leaving center and you need that scotch or forward whatever you want to call it. i wondered if i needed more caster to help load because i have 1.5 and 4.5 as of right now

if the reason it feels good getting in , in the slick , is that the rear is sliding, then you have lost all forward drive right there. with the set up you gave ,to me , it would have to be tight , i think matt gave you the best advice.

[sidewinder69]

i say it feels good because when i drive in and apply brake either trail brakin or not, i dont feel the need to countersteer and chase the rear end. nor do i need to stab the brake to rotate the car, it seems to be pretty neutral but there again i could be wrong but thats my first thought.

[MachineMasters]

I'd get your rear percentage up to at least 54.5 with driver. You might pick up a slight push on corner entry, so keep that in mind.

I've been anywhere from 50% rear to 57% and feel like 54 - 55.5 works the best for me. With 50 - 52, the car steers good but the rear tires feel like they are not loaded enough. If I get too much rear, the car gets lazy on initial turn-in and doesn't get on the RF hard enough, then the pendulum effect takes over mid-corner and then I'm free on exit. Similar to what you're fighting now, but for a different reason.

[sidewinder69]

very good analysis to help go off of masters. i appreciate that... one question just throwing it out there. can different spindles and caster combos affect any of this?

[Matt49]

very good analysis to help go off of masters. i appreciate that... one question just throwing it out there. can different spindles and caster combos affect any of this?

Absolutely! More caster creates a weight jacking effect. When you turn the front wheels to the right, it loads the LR and unloads the RR. What I've found is that if you've got a bit of a loose condition getting in the corner, excessive caster makes it way worse because as you counter steer it is unloading the RR. Just makes it hard to "catch" the car.
There are plenty that disagree with me but I think minimal caster (and minimal caster split) works best with the way the cars are now.

[sidewinder69]

I've heard that before but was thinking when I counter steered , by loading the lr that would be forward traction especially good in the slick right ? And then what if you went with no split.

[Kromulous]

I built a leaf spring Super stock years ago, and i sat the front end up with 6* RF caster, and positive 2* on the LF. That car drove the best i have ever had, steered on a dime. You basically didn't move the wheel, it just did its thing, and you gassed it up.

Always wondered if that would work on a real race car (SLM) LOL.

[Matt49]

I've heard that before but was thinking when I counter steered , by loading the lr that would be forward traction especially good in the slick right ? And then what if you went with no split.

In theory, yes. Counter steering loads the LR and give you more forward bite. But in practice, you have to get through the center of the corner (i.e. plant the RR). RF caster (negative) is unloading the RR as you counter steer which makes that harder to do.
Krom's example is an interesting one as the positive caster in the LF will put load back on the RR as you counter steer. With that much caster split, I'm not the least bit surprised it steered itself. It would probably spin if you let go of the wheel altogether :-)

[sidewinder69]

so ill throw this in the mix, if it is super slick already in hot laps and dont have to worry about plantin the rr to get through the center. can you go up on caster to get better advantage in slick?

[MachineMasters]

Keep in mind when you add caster to the RF, the car might not get on the RF as much/easy/hard. The caster can sometimes hold that corner of the car up. Just like the RF corner raises when you turn the wheels to the right in the shop.

[Stede Bonnet]

I built a leaf spring Super stock years ago, and i sat the front end up with 6* RF caster, and positive 2* on the LF. That car drove the best i have ever had, steered on a dime. You basically didn't move the wheel, it just did its thing, and you gassed it up.

Always wondered if that would work on a real race car (SLM) LOL.

Friend of mine in Australia won the Victorian Super Sedan series title about 2 years ago running a leaf car with front end similar to what you mentioned. Those cars are "Real" race cars(750hp+) and he beat out 4 links and swing arms to boot. Fear not the leaf car...

[calverton]

Bring back the leaf springs bring back the leaf springs

[Dirt_Buster]

I feel there is a maximum amount of caster I like. To much and it'll straighten up to hard and quick. Make it lazier till it's just enough.

[Stede Bonnet]

I built a leaf spring Super stock years ago, and i sat the front end up with 6* RF caster, and positive 2* on the LF. That car drove the best i have ever had, steered on a dime. You basically didn't move the wheel, it just did its thing, and you gassed it up.

Always wondered if that would work on a real race car (SLM) LOL.

Here is a link to that Super Sedan.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211345263329628&set=pcb.10211345272529858&type=3