Concussions, Full Containments Seats and a bouncing ball.

[Stede Bonnet]

I wanted to raise a topic and share a few thoughts on some safety topics that became hot this season and share some things I've learned and my point of view. Tonight I was watching a Ted talk on concussions and some of the data that has been collected with sensors placed in mouth guards of Stanford football players. The data recorded shows very precisely the movements of the head and how the brain most likely is injured. Now I had always assumed and was led to believe a concussion was primarily the result of the head stopping abruptly, like striking your head on cement and then the brain striking the inside of the skull damaging the surface of the brain where it struck the skull. There is a video on the CDC website that demonstrates this theory, however the Stanford study has a shown this to be inaccurate. What the data showed was that one, the damage actually takes place near the center of the brain and two it is primarily the result of a whiplash effect, not a singular impact.

This got me to thinking about at least 2 of the racers I know that have had concussion injuries this year, Dale Jr. and Brian Shirley. Both of these drivers I'm fairly certain use "Full Containment" seats, I know junior does for sure. So how can this be? How can both drivers get concussions and be running the best safety equipment money can buy? Dale races upwards of 200mph, but Brian's wreck wasn't nearly that fast. Brian didn't even strike a wall or fixed object, just rolled over several times and not even the most violent I've ever seen. Some will argue, "It's speed, It's speed, they're just going too fast", but I'm not so sure that's the culprit. In human culture it seems to be we knee-jerk react when bad things happen, desperately hoping to avoid a repeated incident. Too many times in our rush to fix things we make them worse. I don't want to see us rush and make things worse.

I've been involved in DLM racing since 86', concussions and rollovers were non-existent for nearly the first 12 years of my involvement, but with technology and setup evolution, now the cars more easily pop over. From 98'-08' the cars became more prone to turn over, but still concussions weren't that common. Then came the "Full Containment Seat" craze. I've never liked them in DLM's because they make exiting the car under perfect conditions difficult, I can't imagine what its like upside down or with fire! Tonight watching the TED talk and seeing the data showing the head whipping back and forth I had an epiphany. Have you ever been playing basketball or with any bouncing type ball and have it jump into a confined space and suddenly, caught in that space, it bounces violently shooting back and forth at tremendous speed. This made me think of some of these containment seat designs where your head/helmet in nestled in all cozy between 2 huge rubber pieces. Now imagine if the car rolled with your head in there, I imagine it would ricochet back and forth pretty violently like the ball did. I don't have any video to prove this or personal experience doing it, but to me it seems a logical possibility to explain why with more safety equipment we're getting more injuries.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you'd like to share a thought or two they are welcome, but lets not be hasty and start throwing around mandatory this and mandatory that because some things happened that were sad, horrific and upsetting. I read the recent article by Kelly Carlton in DLM magazine and I agree with most of it, like using fire suppression, but I'm not in favor of full containment seats. Most people who post on 4m don't even know what certain safety equipment is made for and what it can and can't do. Many times people have posted that mandating Hahns would fix everything, when that's only good for a straight ahead impact. It's late but I'll try and get the link to the TED talk for anyone interested.

[Dirt2727]

Was just saying the same thing tonight......agree 100%

[grt74]

I wanted to raise a topic and share a few thoughts on some safety topics that became hot this season and share some things I've learned and my point of view. Tonight I was watching a Ted talk on concussions and some of the data that has been collected with sensors placed in mouth guards of Stanford football players. The data recorded shows very precisely the movements of the head and how the brain most likely is injured. Now I had always assumed and was led to believe a concussion was primarily the result of the head stopping abruptly, like striking your head on cement and then the brain striking the inside of the skull damaging the surface of the brain where it struck the skull. There is a video on the CDC website that demonstrates this theory, however the Stanford study has a shown this to be inaccurate. What the data showed was that one, the damage actually takes place near the center of the brain and two it is primarily the result of a whiplash effect, not a singular impact.

This got me to thinking about at least 2 of the racers I know that have had concussion injuries this year, Dale Jr. and Brian Shirley. Both of these drivers I'm fairly certain use "Full Containment" seats, I know junior does for sure. So how can this be? How can both drivers get concussions and be running the best safety equipment money can buy? Dale races upwards of 200mph, but Brian's wreck wasn't nearly that fast. Brian didn't even strike a wall or fixed object, just rolled over several times and not even the most violent I've ever seen. Some will argue, "It's speed, It's speed, they're just going too fast", but I'm not so sure that's the culprit. In human culture it seems to be we knee-jerk react when bad things happen, desperately hoping to avoid a repeated incident. Too many times in our rush to fix things we make them worse. I don't want to see us rush and make things worse.

I've been involved in DLM racing since 86', concussions and rollovers were non-existent for nearly the first 12 years of my involvement, but with technology and setup evolution, now the cars more easily pop over. From 98'-08' the cars became more prone to turn over, but still concussions weren't that common. Then came the "Full Containment Seat" craze. I've never liked them in DLM's because they make exiting the car under perfect conditions difficult, I can't imagine what its like upside down or with fire! Tonight watching the TED talk and seeing the data showing the head whipping back and forth I had an epiphany. Have you ever been playing basketball or with any bouncing type ball and have it jump into a confined space and suddenly, caught in that space, it bounces violently shooting back and forth at tremendous speed. This made me think of some of these containment seat designs where your head/helmet in nestled in all cozy between 2 huge rubber pieces. Now imagine if the car rolled with your head in there, I imagine it would ricochet back and forth pretty violently like the ball did. I don't have any video to prove this or personal experience doing it, but to me it seems a logical possibility to explain why with more safety equipment we're getting more injuries.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you'd like to share a thought or two they are welcome, but lets not be hasty and start throwing around mandatory this and mandatory that because some things happened that were sad, horrific and upsetting. I read the recent article by Kelly Carlton in DLM magazine and I agree with most of it, like using fire suppression, but I'm not in favor of full containment seats. Most people who post on 4m don't even know what certain safety equipment is made for and what it can and can't do. Many times people have posted that mandating Hahns would fix everything, when that's only good for a straight ahead impact. It's late but I'll try and get the link to the TED talk for anyone interested.

nascar is aware of this,look at the new containment seats and the impact foam (how thick it is)around the head area,i completely agree with the "bounce" effect but it leaves a concussion,with out a containment seat,a left side impact on the drivers door with out one can have very bad results or death (there have been videos where the helmet comes almost completely out of the window area) while i agree we can do better,dirt cars are going faster in features today and have more grip than ever,this equals speed and more control but when you loose control or get alot of grip all at once(cushion), its a bigger crash today

[A ron]

Take away that containment sent and who knows how bad those injuries could have been. I could be mistaken but it seems like consensus was that Jason Lefler might've lived if he'd been in a full containment seat.

[fastford]

i agree with your thoughts SB, although I doubt any seat manufacturers will, i do believe that the hans or similar type devices are a tremendous safety advantage though and none of my kids will climb in a race car with out one, JMO......

[HEAVY DUTY]

I have one of the best full containment seats. It was custom made for me, and was 1800 dollars. It has 4" of dense foam around the head rest. I race weekly at Tazewell which is probably the most banking of any dirt track in the country. Probably has more G forces than most tracks also. 3 times this year I have gotten a headache that lasted 2 or 3 days from my head hitting the seat, when hitting a hole.I wonder how bad it would be if I hit the wall. I am beginning to wonder if I would be better off with a seat that had a more flexible head support. I don't wear a Hans. I bought a new necksgen rev, and cannot wear it. I tried 2 times, and it gave me a terrible back ache. I don't know if they all do, but they are not an option for me if they all are like that. Sometimes I think we just need to slow the cars down. Maybe they are going faster than the human body can stand. We have more, and better safety equipment than in the past, but we have more drivers getting hurt.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Take away that containment sent and who knows how bad those injuries could have been. I could be mistaken but it seems like consensus was that Jason Lefler might've lived if he'd been in a full containment seat.

Every accident is different and simply accepting something is better is not the best way. Often, any type of improvement is meant to improve outcomes in a certain type of event. In other events, it could be a hindrance. It all comes down to what circumstance is most likely. In your passenger car, there are potential accident scenarios where being thrown from the car would save your life. Like a wreck where the top is collapsed. Most times, however, you would be better off with a seat belt.

A Hans, is meant to keep you from snapping your spinal cord off your head when you come to a sudden stop in a general straight line. I know of no dirt late model drivers who died that way.

The containment seat can certainly save you in some scenarios. Like when the drivers side hits the wall with high impact. Is it also causing concussion? Quite possibly.

[Stede Bonnet]

Take away that containment sent and who knows how bad those injuries could have been. I could be mistaken but it seems like consensus was that Jason Lefler might've lived if he'd been in a full containment seat.

According to the crew, Jason had full containment and Hahns... All the bells and whistles. The full containment craze has so taken hold that its the "end all-be all" that everyone just assumes if someone gets hurt they didn't have one and that their head struck the wall. Like the guy who died at Eldora this year, rumors were that his head struck the wall because he didn't have a full containment seat, which he didnt have a full containment seat, but the autopsy showed that he died of internal injuries(not a head or neck injury). I'd be willing to bet, if Brian Shirley had a regular seat with RS head rest he probably wouldn't have had a concussion at all. Roll overs aren't necessarily bad, they look bad, but all that rolling is dissipating energy gradually not suddenly.


I have one of the best full containment seats. It was custom made for me, and was 1800 dollars. It has 4" of dense foam around the head rest. I race weekly at Tazewell which is probably the most banking of any dirt track in the country. Probably has more G forces than most tracks also. 3 times this year I have gotten a headache that lasted 2 or 3 days from my head hitting the seat, when hitting a hole.I wonder how bad it would be if I hit the wall. I am beginning to wonder if I would be better off with a seat that had a more flexible head support. This is what I'm talking about, your head stuck in a confined rubberized space ricocheting from side to side, according to the stanford concussion research it causes a shearing towards the center of the brain from rapid changes in direction. If it were me I'd contact the seat builder and see what they say and maybe consider getting a more conventional seat with a good head rest on the right side(Like Bloomquist uses) and put in a window net if you fearful of hitting the wall on the drivers side. I'm not a professional or trained in medicine, but you seemed to have answered the question exactly as I suspected. Your only doing yourself harm continuing to run it since you've already reported to having concussion like symptoms after hitting holes in the track. Just my opinion but you do what you think is best for you.

[Lizardracing]

A few years ago I got turned on corner entry and came to a full stop on the track with the nose facing down hill. Along came a friend and hit me square in the LS door bars. His bumper lifted the left side of the car and my body was compressed downward into the seat. The LS rib support got under my armpit and pulled my shoulder out of the socket and tore up all the attaching tissues that hold your arm on. I was out for many months.

Would a containment seat prevented that injury? I don't know but it got me thinking and I've came to the over all conclusion that any safety gear is dependent on technology, cost, practicality but most importantly, to REDUCE the chance of serious injury and not always to prevent ALL injury. A concussion is better than a Basilar Skull Fracture, A Dislocated Shoulder is better than then a concussion if my head hit the head support I didn't have and that sort of thing.
I like your way of thinking but it's a bit black and white on a very very gray matter.

I'd have to argue your facts about cars turning over more easily, concussions are up, equating football injuries to car racing injury's but I do like the fact your thinking about it and trying to have a respectful conversation about it.

[A ron]

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/nationwide/story/_/id/9407098/experts-headrest-saved-jason-leffler I'm not saying its true, just the first article that pops up. The HANS means nothing on side to side impacts. Just seems like to me on a numbers basis, I'd rather take my chances on a concussion vs a neck injury. Look at NASCAR. How many deaths have there been since the HANS and FC seat was implemented in 2001?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I don't think it is even up for debate if cars are turning over more. They are. It can be seen and obvious reasons can even be given.

[Renegade Cust Susp]

I wanted to raise a topic and share a few thoughts on some safety topics that became hot this season and share some things I've learned and my point of view. Tonight I was watching a Ted talk on concussions and some of the data that has been collected with sensors placed in mouth guards of Stanford football players. The data recorded shows very precisely the movements of the head and how the brain most likely is injured. Now I had always assumed and was led to believe a concussion was primarily the result of the head stopping abruptly, like striking your head on cement and then the brain striking the inside of the skull damaging the surface of the brain where it struck the skull. There is a video on the CDC website that demonstrates this theory, however the Stanford study has a shown this to be inaccurate. What the data showed was that one, the damage actually takes place near the center of the brain and two it is primarily the result of a whiplash effect, not a singular impact.

This got me to thinking about at least 2 of the racers I know that have had concussion injuries this year, Dale Jr. and Brian Shirley. Both of these drivers I'm fairly certain use "Full Containment" seats, I know junior does for sure. So how can this be? How can both drivers get concussions and be running the best safety equipment money can buy? Dale races upwards of 200mph, but Brian's wreck wasn't nearly that fast. Brian didn't even strike a wall or fixed object, just rolled over several times and not even the most violent I've ever seen. Some will argue, "It's speed, It's speed, they're just going too fast", but I'm not so sure that's the culprit. In human culture it seems to be we knee-jerk react when bad things happen, desperately hoping to avoid a repeated incident. Too many times in our rush to fix things we make them worse. I don't want to see us rush and make things worse.

I've been involved in DLM racing since 86', concussions and rollovers were non-existent for nearly the first 12 years of my involvement, but with technology and setup evolution, now the cars more easily pop over. From 98'-08' the cars became more prone to turn over, but still concussions weren't that common. Then came the "Full Containment Seat" craze. I've never liked them in DLM's because they make exiting the car under perfect conditions difficult, I can't imagine what its like upside down or with fire! Tonight watching the TED talk and seeing the data showing the head whipping back and forth I had an epiphany. Have you ever been playing basketball or with any bouncing type ball and have it jump into a confined space and suddenly, caught in that space, it bounces violently shooting back and forth at tremendous speed. This made me think of some of these containment seat designs where your head/helmet in nestled in all cozy between 2 huge rubber pieces. Now imagine if the car rolled with your head in there, I imagine it would ricochet back and forth pretty violently like the ball did. I don't have any video to prove this or personal experience doing it, but to me it seems a logical possibility to explain why with more safety equipment we're getting more injuries.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you'd like to share a thought or two they are welcome, but lets not be hasty and start throwing around mandatory this and mandatory that because some things happened that were sad, horrific and upsetting. I read the recent article by Kelly Carlton in DLM magazine and I agree with most of it, like using fire suppression, but I'm not in favor of full containment seats. Most people who post on 4m don't even know what certain safety equipment is made for and what it can and can't do. Many times people have posted that mandating Hahns would fix everything, when that's only good for a straight ahead impact. It's late but I'll try and get the link to the TED talk for anyone interested.

As someone who knows personally the aids of a full containment seat from my time racing non wing sprint cars in Indiana and crashing them a few times, this idea that a full containment seat is a bad idea because of the possibility of a concussion is asinine at best. If chance of injury is your concern you may want to find a safer sport. Drivers, any and all will be glad to have a concussion from and overly rigid seat as apposed to the alternative of there helmet hitting a concrete wall or (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit sections of sheet metal which have in recent times proven to be WAY more dangerous than a concussion. There are inherent risks in what we do but you are dissecting the micro to sacrifice the macro.

Is it possible that some full containment seats are too rigid causing the problem absolutely, but to suggest all versions of this device are unsafe is a bit much.

The seat will help protect you in a lateral impact something a hans has proven not to do.
Many other factors should be taken into account, do we know for a fact that junior or Brian's helmets fit 100% correctly to prevent as much trauma as possible, it's likely they did fit but does anyone truely know?
Just my .02 cents

[HEAVY DUTY]

I think that full containment seats are a must, but I also think that the rigidity of the head rest should be looked at. Maybe they should be allowed to move slightly, maybe spring loaded or something so that your head doesn't bounce violently off the seat. It is apparent that the dense foam might not be enough to cushion the impact. I had a friend who broke his neck flipping a mod that had the old clamp to the roll cage head support that used the steering wheel center pad. They were too rigid also. I always figured that his body shifting to the right while his head was against that rigid head support is what broke his neck.

[fastford]

Every accident is different and simply accepting something is better is not the best way. Often, any type of improvement is meant to improve outcomes in a certain type of event. In other events, it could be a hindrance. It all comes down to what circumstance is most likely. In your passenger car, there are potential accident scenarios where being thrown from the car would save your life. Like a wreck where the top is collapsed. Most times, however, you would be better off with a seat belt.

A Hans, is meant to keep you from snapping your spinal cord off your head when you come to a sudden stop in a general straight line. I know of no dirt late model drivers who died that way.

The containment seat can certainly save you in some scenarios. Like when the drivers side hits the wall with high impact. Is it also causing concussion? Quite possibly.
a girl down in florida, several years back , in a pony car got turned and hit the wall head on , neck snapped and shes dead,i think the hans might have saved her. im not fully sold on the containment seat for my self, but my daughter wears a hans and if she wants, ill get her the seat, shes a little claustrophobic like her ole man, so IDK....

[grt74]

i can say this with out a doubt (i really forgot about an accident my son was in)
he was in a race running 3rd tucked under the 2nd place car that was trying to pass a lapped car that was trying to get in the infield, he didn't see it because the 2nd place car was tucked under the lapped car(all of this was at the middle to the end of the straightaway) the lapped car rubbed 2nd place car and drove into the rr of our car turning him straight into the wall head on and then slapped the left side very hard(i would have thought it would have atleast startled him,but he was pretty upset too) I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT SAVED MY SONS LIFE, AND HE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL NOT RUN WITH OUT ONE,he was offered to drive a car one time but wouldn't because it didn't have a containment seat,he put his seat in and then he drove it for a few weeks
i think the biggest problem here is until the last year or two none of the cars really have enough room in them for the seat and hans,PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FROM THE TOP OF YOUR HELMET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ROLL BARS,WE LIKE ATLEAST 2" MINIMUM
racing is dangerous no doubt,but not as dangerous as not taking the precautions
as always guys please be as safe as you can,we can replace the cars but we can't replace you as a person,father,wife,son, daughter,or friend,ask mr smooth about a containment seat,i think he runs one now too,after the same kind of accident

[Matt49]

I have to disagree completely with the basketball analogy. From a pure physics standpoint, a basketball bouncing off of any hard surface is a very elastic collision. Helmets and the padding in the full containment seats are specifically designed to absorb the energy of a collision and hence make it an inelastic collision.
I've been using a full containment seat since I started driving a late model and it's the best money I've ever spent. I've been in some VERY hard collisions and I'm a believer that the seat protected me from excessive upper body and head movement that could have lead to rib, back, neck, etc. injuries.
On the HANS deal, I'll say this: I read somewhere that you can sustain a basilar skull fracture at 40 MPH head on impact. Whether it is true or not, it lead me to buying a HANS. The only reason I stopped wearing last season (after only wearing it twice) was because I came in after hot laps to find my helmet wasn't strapped. Just one of those deals where adding new things to a routine caused me to miss something very basic. Freaked me out so I put it back in the box until I have time to practice the new strapping-in routine associated with wearing it. Which will certainly be done this off-season.

[Renegade Cust Susp]

i can say this with out a doubt (i really forgot about an accident my son was in)
he was in a race running 3rd tucked under the 2nd place car that was trying to pass a lapped car that was trying to get in the infield, he didn't see it because the 2nd place car was tucked under the lapped car(all of this was at the middle to the end of the straightaway) the lapped car rubbed 2nd place car and drove into the rr of our car turning him straight into the wall head on and then slapped the left side very hard(i would have thought it would have atleast startled him,but he was pretty upset too) I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT SAVED MY SONS LIFE, AND HE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL NOT RUN WITH OUT ONE,he was offered to drive a car one time but wouldn't because it didn't have a containment seat,he put his seat in and then he drove it for a few weeks
i think the biggest problem here is until the last year or two none of the cars really have enough room in them for the seat and hans,PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FROM THE TOP OF YOUR HELMET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ROLL BARS,WE LIKE ATLEAST 2" MINIMUM
racing is dangerous no doubt,but not as dangerous as not taking the precautions
as always guys please be as safe as you can,we can replace the cars but we can't replace you as a person,father,wife,son, daughter,or friend,ask mr smooth about a containment seat,i think he runs one now too,after the same kind of accident

I could not agree with this more, driver to cage clearance is hardly addressed in the open wheel stuff and even less so in the stock car stuff, that is why we always run tall cage cars sprint car and modifiers and after conversations with Bryan at Bandit he raised the halo in ALL of his cars from what they used to be.

[grt74]

i know there is some testing going on,I'm hoping to know more after pri (after i talk to some of my friends that test vehicle safety equipment,there some very sharp guys,and they have access to test a ton of different ways),someone has told me that the basketball effect is real but they have tested memory form instead of impact foam but i haven't heard any results yet,when you look at a crash (side impact) in slow motion the helmet flexes causing the basketball effect,of coarse its not exactly the same but you can get the idea,but we can all agree that a concussion is better than the alternative, BUT IM NOT CLAIMING TO BE ANY KIND OF EXPERT ON THIS,because of the liability world

[collateralDamage]

In all athletics, racing included, concussions have increased dramatically over the last 15 years (60% more?). It is speculated that this is a result of increased awareness and early diagnosis and not that there are actually more concussions.

Same goes for racing fatalities? Are there more fatalities in racing today or are we just more aware of them (via social media, etc)?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

a girl down in florida, several years back , in a pony car got turned and hit the wall head on , neck snapped and shes dead,i think the hans might have saved her. im not fully sold on the containment seat for my self, but my daughter wears a hans and if she wants, ill get her the seat, shes a little claustrophobic like her ole man, so IDK....

I remember that. Didn't know the type of injury involved. Those cars do have less crush zone than a late model.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

i know there is some testing going on,I'm hoping to know more after pri (after i talk to some of my friends that test vehicle safety equipment,there some very sharp guys,and they have access to test a ton of different ways),someone has told me that the basketball effect is real but they have tested memory form instead of impact foam but i haven't heard any results yet,when you look at a crash (side impact) in slow motion the helmet flexes causing the basketball effect,of coarse its not exactly the same but you can get the idea,but we can all agree that a concussion is better than the alternative, BUT IM NOT CLAIMING TO BE ANY KIND OF EXPERT ON THIS,because of the liability world
A concussion is better than death, if that is the choice. If you are getting 3 concussions a year and your chance of a fatal accident is 1%, then you are making the wrong choice.

[Stede Bonnet]

As someone who knows personally the aids of a full containment seat from my time racing non wing sprint cars in Indiana and crashing them a few times, this idea that a full containment seat is a bad idea because of the possibility of a concussion is asinine at best. If chance of injury is your concern you may want to find a safer sport. Drivers, any and all will be glad to have a concussion from and overly rigid seat as apposed to the alternative of there helmet hitting a concrete wall or (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit sections of sheet metal which have in recent times proven to be WAY more dangerous than a concussion. There are inherent risks in what we do but you are dissecting the micro to sacrifice the macro.

Is it possible that some full containment seats are too rigid causing the problem absolutely, but to suggest all versions of this device are unsafe is a bit much.

The seat will help protect you in a lateral impact something a hans has proven not to do.
Many other factors should be taken into account, do we know for a fact that junior or Brian's helmets fit 100% correctly to prevent as much trauma as possible, it's likely they did fit but does anyone truely know?
Just my .02 cents
Actually I'm NOT arguing that they are too rigid and possibly not all designs have the same issue, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see putting a round object between two big huge rubber pads may cause a ping-pong effect. A concussion isn't a small thing, especially if your getting them often or concussion like symptoms on a regular basis. Concussions can lead to all sorts of debilitating problems, like early onset dimensia, depression and suicide to name a few, its NOT just a headache. My main argument is against "Mandating" FC seats without all the facts. Basil skull injuries are generally straight ahead(Front to back), that's what the HANS was designed to prevent. I'm also arguing the escapability problem of a DLM equipped with FC, I'd like to see some rule changes that address that. I'm NOT anti-safety, but knee-jerk mandates can be just as bad if not worse than doing nothing.

[RCJ]

Doesn't every time the helmet hits some thing it becomes less effective the next hit?

[Stede Bonnet]

I have to disagree completely with the basketball analogy. From a pure physics standpoint, a basketball bouncing off of any hard surface is a very elastic collision. Helmets and the padding in the full containment seats are specifically designed to absorb the energy of a collision and hence make it an inelastic collision.
I've been using a full containment seat since I started driving a late model and it's the best money I've ever spent. I've been in some VERY hard collisions and I'm a believer that the seat protected me from excessive upper body and head movement that could have lead to rib, back, neck, etc. injuries.
On the HANS deal, I'll say this: I read somewhere that you can sustain a basilar skull fracture at 40 MPH head on impact. Whether it is true or not, it lead me to buying a HANS. The only reason I stopped wearing last season (after only wearing it twice) was because I came in after hot laps to find my helmet wasn't strapped. Just one of those deals where adding new things to a routine caused me to miss something very basic. Freaked me out so I put it back in the box until I have time to practice the new strapping-in routine associated with wearing it. Which will certainly be done this off-season.

Which kind/brand seat do you use? I think HANS is a great idea too. A lot of people don't understand what a HANS is designed to do, you obviously do.

[keeks]

I bought a nex gen, and the dang thing doesn't fit in my halo vs seat. I'm disappointed that I have to cut up my seat to make the restraint fit.

Has anyone else had to do something like this?

[Stede Bonnet]

Doesn't every time the helmet hits some thing it becomes less effective the next hit?

If your asking if a helmet loses its capability or degrades in performance after an impact, I believe that is correct. Now whether bouncing off the FC sides counts, I couldn't say. I think FC seats are well intended, I'm just not sure its the best way to go. Maybe there aren't more concussions, maybe we just know about more of them because of social media and news coverage in general, I don't know. Is football and auto racing the same thing injury wise? Absolutely not. I was merely trying to raise awareness and have a conversation about seats, concussions and some things I've observed. Today's culture is all to quick to react, both in government and society, all in the name of "safety and security" when tragedy strikes. I just want to make sure we do the right things and don't scrap our "freedom to decide" because something bad occurred. They've already started making suspension rules that make things unnecessarily more expensive, I'd just hate to see a bunch of mandates do anymore damage to our racing economy and it not fix anything.

I am glad to hear what I observed has been noticed by those in the industry and its being looked at. I hate to hear somebody spent a lot of money on a seat that is actually doing him harm, even without having an accident. For me I think it'll be a regular seat and a window net and a headrest that gives way. Maybe they could come up with a device like the HANS that works laterally...

[Matt49]

I didn't notice any clearance issues using my Nexgen. This is with a Kirkey containment seat (to also answer Steed's question).

[zeroracing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gkTezQu7k

I am a believer in single piece suits, full containment seats and head/neck restraints.

[Krooser]

that head support no doubt absorbed some energy... the drivers neck/head still moved a lot but not as much as if he didn't have that support.

I like the old horse collar to help keep the neck stable... not sold on FC seats unless the driver can exit the car fast enough to avoid injury from fire. Same with the safety crew... we build too many cars that can keep the driver from easily being extracted from the car in an emergency.

[rakracing]

i believe you all have good points, my feeling is in 28 years of racing lms the last 8 with a top kirkey fc seat, i never had a issue with a reg kirkey seat with head rest . the problem is a fc seat was designed that the helmet touches the head rest snugg on both sides which no one likes cause ya cant turn your head, mine was ok but didnt like that i couldnt look. i opened it up some and from there on rung my bell more than once. race with a kid that has it all fc seat hans parents got him everything, at 21 hes on his 5th concussion and last one he backed into the wall and it knocked him out,. also seen over the years guys dont have the belts set right submarine belt to long and loose and in a roll over that belt means everything..... all the saftey stuff is great if used right and thats most of the problem....

[LM14]

NHRA changed the roll cage padding rules after some drivers were getting concussions during tire shake.

F1 and Indy car helmets fit into a padded pocket and you don't see concussions in those 2 forms of racing.

I've had drivers with Hans and full containment seats take some BIG hits and get out just fine.

I think a possible area to look at is helmet fit (how many helmets really and truly fit the driver correctly?) and different padding of the head side pieces of the containment seat. I would like to see less air space between the side pieces of the seat and the outside of the helmet. With less room to travel before making contact, the velocity of the impact is slowed. If the seat side foam conformed to the helmet sides tighter, that may help. Close up those gaps, keep the helmet from moving freely so much.

Hans is a good piece for what it is designed to do. Many think it will save them in any accident, it won't. It has a very narrow focus of protection as stated by others. Maybe the same amount of testing needs to be taken at containment seats, foam pads, flexibility (I'm not thinking you want them to flex if the seat doesn't) and helmet sizing and fit.

SPark

[grt74]

NHRA changed the roll cage padding rules after some drivers were getting concussions during tire shake.

F1 and Indy car helmets fit into a padded pocket and you don't see concussions in those 2 forms of racing.

I've had drivers with Hans and full containment seats take some BIG hits and get out just fine.

I think a possible area to look at is helmet fit (how many helmets really and truly fit the driver correctly?) and different padding of the head side pieces of the containment seat. I would like to see less air space between the side pieces of the seat and the outside of the helmet. With less room to travel before making contact, the velocity of the impact is slowed. If the seat side foam conformed to the helmet sides tighter, that may help. Close up those gaps, keep the helmet from moving freely so much.

Hans is a good piece for what it is designed to do. Many think it will save them in any accident, it won't. It has a very narrow focus of protection as stated by others. Maybe the same amount of testing needs to be taken at containment seats, foam pads, flexibility (I'm not thinking you want them to flex if the seat doesn't) and helmet sizing and fit.

SPark

maybe its time to think about mirrors in the car or radios,i know in the dirt world most do not like it,but with all the signals by the crew in the stands i really don't see a difference and then at that point you can have a seat that fits tighter around the head area,but i do know that 95% of the time the helmet and the seat are too close to the roll bars,just go to a topless race,it just flat blew me away that some of the helmets were above the roll bar, I'm going to talk to the top seat manufactures and see what they have to say about fitment,i have always been told that if you can slide your hands in on both sides of your helmet,that was about all the space you wanted,but if the helmet needs to be in as some has said a pocket to fix the problem,its time to look at mirrors and or radios,
nascar seats look like there pretty tight around the head area too
were not going to stop it all but this does seem like an easy fix,because of all the info that other racing bodies have,it doesn't seem to be to far fetched to research

[Stede Bonnet]

Who all has which kind of seat and who is getting concussions?
Any links or pics would be nice too.
Thanks.

I've always liked the way Bloomquist does his headrest both side and rear.

[Stede Bonnet]

Heres a quote and a link to an interesting article:

"...Almost all head trauma in automobile racing results from collisions, when the head is shaken violently..." according to Dr. Robert Cantu

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/03/28/racing-concussion-problem-lowering-risk-for-head-injuries-among-nascar-drivers.html

“The important thing for people to understand is that you don’t have to hit your head to have a concussion and don’t have to have been unconscious to have a concussion,” Dr. Stephen E. Olvey, associate professor of clinical neurology & neurosurgery at University of Miami Health System told FoxNews.com. “If the movement of the head is violent enough and the brain hits the inside of the skull, for example, you can still have significant injury or concussion.

[Matt49]

maybe its time to think about mirrors in the car or radios,i know in the dirt world most do not like it,but with all the signals by the crew in the stands i really don't see a difference and then at that point you can have a seat that fits tighter around the head area,but i do know that 95% of the time the helmet and the seat are too close to the roll bars,just go to a topless race,it just flat blew me away that some of the helmets were above the roll bar, I'm going to talk to the top seat manufactures and see what they have to say about fitment,i have always been told that if you can slide your hands in on both sides of your helmet,that was about all the space you wanted,but if the helmet needs to be in as some has said a pocket to fix the problem,its time to look at mirrors and or radios,
nascar seats look like there pretty tight around the head area too
were not going to stop it all but this does seem like an easy fix,because of all the info that other racing bodies have,it doesn't seem to be to far fetched to research

I've always been against mirrors because I feel it might encourage blocking. It sure does in pavement racing. That being said, anybody that has ever driven one of these cars knows how bad visibility is to your left going into a turn. If somebody isn't almost all they way along side of you, you simply can see them. I feel this causes a lot of incidents that could be avoided if the guy on the outside knew he had somebody right next to him.

[Matt49]

This is good discussion and it is obvious that there are a lot of different ideas out there and none of us are experts. That being said, there are obviously people out there that are experts in different areas of safety (seats, HANS, harnesses, fire safety, etc.). It sounds to me like where we are really lacking (as racers) is a complete understanding of how all of these components should work TOGETHER to have the best possible safety "system" in our race cars.
It seems to me that there would be a demand for some sort of safety seminar (much like a chassis setup seminar) that covered a lot of this stuff. Or maybe some of the chassis setup seminar folks should consider bringing in guests that have a focus on safety and incorporating that into their existing program...
...just thinking out loud here...

[fabu100]

I personally think many of us are not buying the correct size helmet. The most important thing when it comes to the proper fit is on the crown of the head. I have seen so many that chose a helmet for comfort and how it fits around the cheeks rather than the top of the head. Shop around and try 5 or 10 different ones till you find the correct one. I am also considering a mouthgaurd. Wore one during my motocross days....

[rakracing]

agree with fabu100 was always a simpson helmet person, but tried diffrent one on at a show and the bell gtx fit my head better than any, been with bell since. something else i'd recommend, couple years ago friend gave me a rib vest protector to use after surgery and have been wherein ever since, fit better in seat and the simpson hybrid doesnt dig in my shoulders

[Brian Gray]

I just want to ad a couple points to this , clarify. One on Jason lefler, first off yes he had top equipment but chose to cut off one side of the head support so he could get in and out of the car easier. COD " blunt force trauma to the neck." End result of wearing a Hans without side protection my opinion. This result has been repeated multiple times over the last few years.

As far as containment seats go there are what I call REAL ones and then there are some misrepresentations. As a 2016 concussion victim I don't blame my seat for a second. I'm thankful I had the equipment I had cause honestly given the violent acts that took place in my wreck I'm positive that without them I wouldn't have walked away without being hurt much worse.

Until we have some uniform way to educate people on the importance of having as well as properly mounting a real containment seat which includes having proper belts and how they should be mounted. I'm not sure a discussion on the topic of such is not doing a disservice to those reading this.

Anyone reading this please don't take anything here as a reason to not equip your car with a real containment seat. Especially if you plan on wearing any type of HANS device. It is a critical component of your personal safety.

[lrnvlFan1w]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1qz7bwsMM4

I found this video and thought it was relevant to what you all are talking about.

This was on the LaJoie Racing Seat website.

Notice the head bouncing.

Keep talking this topic is great.

[riddle28]

im pretty sure weaver, shirley and madden all run joie seats. Not saying that has anything to with it because ive actually been thinking about ordering one at PRI, but that is a common denominator. I believe all were also in longhorns when they got their concussions

[Stede Bonnet]

If I'm not mistaken,"Blunt force trauma to the neck" would be something striking the neck directly or the neck striking something directly, neither has anything to do with basil skull fracture(which is what HANS is designed for). HANS protects ONLY straight ahead, FC designed for side impacts and keeping you stationary.

"According to his team, Leffler was wearing a Simpson Hybrid head and neck restraint system, which is one of six approved for use in NASCAR. A blunt force injury occurs when an object strikes the body with force causing compression of tissue. Head and neck restraints are designed to prevent injuries resulting from deceleration trauma when the body is moving and strikes another moving or stationary object, causing stretching or tearing of body tissue."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2013/06/13/jason-leffler-cause-of-death-nascar/2421945/

[rakracing]

i used a lajoie seat in a north east modified and they have the hardest head padding ive used with alot of clearance for the head, accually taped and tied extra foam on the head rest

[Brian Gray]

A blunt force injury can also occur from over applied preasure. No impact from a foreign object is needed. It was another way of saying he broke his neck.

My point was I feel that the neck restraint was what caused the motion that negated the injury due to not having a side support. Think of it like the cracking of a whip.

[fastford]

this is a good thread, its got me doing some thinking. I think ill break out the TIG this winter and see what i can concoct. i am concerned about ones head being able to make contact with the wall , so you have to have something for that, but i dont think you have to be as radical as some of the seats ive looked at, along with protection , ive got to be able to see.

[Stede Bonnet]

A blunt force injury can also occur from over applied pressure. No impact from a foreign object is needed. It was another way of saying he broke his neck.

My point was I feel that the neck restraint was what caused the motion that negated the injury due to not having a side support. Think of it like the cracking of a whip.

The quote above was from a "Professional", you can read the article at the link if you want to for clarification, the seat in the pictures... All I can speak to is what the professionals say in the article. If your 100% Pro-FC, thats fine, I think the concept has merit, but I think there is room for some questions as to that they may be causing harm as well as impeding exit during rollover and/or fire situations.

[Stede Bonnet]

I'm still looking at FC seats, nets and alternatives, but I'm a big fan of USAC Non-wing sprints too, well last night I was watching some videos from Indiana Sprint week. I noticed several that had taken off the LS head support in favor of a net or had cut the head support back substantially. On some others they showed some roll over footage and you could see where the head support area was widened out so the head didn't ping-pong so much. With the cars being non-wing you could get a better idea of whats happening and how guys who roll over a lot deal with it. Dave Darland had removed his LS head support in favor of sprint window net. Check out some of the "Loudpedal" videos. Here's a link to one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InvvHsxkjQc

[billetbirdcage]

I'm still looking at FC seats, nets and alternatives, but I'm a big fan of USAC Non-wing sprints too, well last night I was watching some videos from Indiana Sprint week. I noticed several that had taken off the LS head support in favor of a net or had cut the head support back substantially. On some others they showed some roll over footage and you could see where the head support area was widened out so the head didn't ping-pong so much. With the cars being non-wing you could get a better idea of whats happening and how guys who roll over a lot deal with it. Dave Darland had removed his LS head support in favor of sprint window net. Check out some of the "Loudpedal" videos. Here's a link to one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InvvHsxkjQc

Not a sprint car guy at all, but I do believe the more major concern in a sprint car crash is back injuries from flipping and landing on the wheels and compressing the back. I'm pretty sure Darin Pitman was the first to have rubber mounts (sort of) that mounted his seat. Not sure how effective that is or how common it is now but was told several followed suit and have similar deals as what Pittman did.

[Stede Bonnet]

Not a sprint car guy at all, but I do believe the more major concern in a sprint car crash is back injuries from flipping and landing on the wheels and compressing the back. I'm pretty sure Darin Pitman was the first to have rubber mounts (sort of) that mounted his seat. Not sure how effective that is or how common it is now but was told several followed suit and have similar deals as what Pittman did.

Thank you for your response. I think someone offers impact absorbing seat bottoms as well. Check out the video, you don't have to be a sprint car fan, but Indiana Sprint week is on my bucket list.

So who uses which seat?

Whats the best lay back?

Why did you choose the seat you chose?

[motorsports12]

I would like to hear more responses from those that have the containment seat and the Hans as far as entering and exiting the car with all stuff still on ... With the opening to get in and out of the car being closed up even more ... I am a pretty tall and heavier guy so getting in and out with a sprint type window net is already a problem ... Now being required to run a containment seat and Hans is scary .... Thinking of adding a "sunroof" flip type access panel to get in and out ... Thoughts

[TheJet-09]

My last race of 2016 included a circumstance in which I had to exit quickly with everything still on (I have a full containment seat and neck restraint). It was not smooth to say the least. It didn't help that the track worker was pulling me from behind. I had an older chassis (only 26 1/4" halo height from the floor) and I am about 6'01" 230 lbs.

I actually removed my window net this past year after having run one my entire racing career. I figured with the shoulder supports of the seat there was little to no chance of my arm ever getting out the window, and I've honestly never been "saved" of anything by the net. I removed it so there was one less thing to worry about in an emergency.

I now have a newer car with a taller cage (around 28 1/4" halo height). I also run a 1" spacer under the right side (bottom) of my seat to help with fatigue while racing. I think that helps, if even just a little, because the seat is angled/tipped to the left, towards the window.

While on the subject, has anyone seen in writing what they are accepting as far as seats go this year? I've been told a containment seat is enough, but haven't seen any amendment to the rules.