Lead on LR tube

[twisterf5]

i am seeing this allot more. but is it not a danger to run it there or is the gain worth it.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

i am seeing this allot more. but is it not a danger to run it there or is the gain worth it.

By many rules packages, this practice is not legal. If mounted properly, there would be no risk.

[12doublej]

What about un-sprung weight being a bad thing?

[hammond motorsports]

I have been building Steel W-5 axle tubes and Steel 4 link cages for more info call 563 659 1153 thanks Dave

[Bmod141]

12doublej - I was wondering the same thing!

[a25rjr]

Im sure someone will start running dual "brake calipers" on the lr.

[RCJ]

When it's up on the bars and off the spring isn't the left corner of the car all unsprung weight?

[12doublej]

Yes, I guess it is RCJ....

[fastford]

When it's up on the bars and off the spring isn't the left corner of the car all unsprung weight?

mine never gets off the spring, but for your question, with angle in the bars , i think there would be some type of a mechanical spring effect, now if the bars went strait up and down, then it might act as a solid unit.

[a25rjr]

I was told by a reliable source that it was Bloomers go-to adjustment for the feature esp, the last half of last year. of course, its illegal now in Lucas.

[sidewinder69]

What size weight would be reasonable

[TheJet-09]

I see Keyser makes an actual clamp for mounting lead to an axle tube. Hopefully they didn't make too many! But at the same time, I bet a lot of the stuff that is now illegal in Lucas and WoO is still being used at the local level...they don't tech the cars and aren't looking for things like that (unless someone ratted you out).

[sidewinder69]

Can someone explain the theory behind it

[Flyin Iowan]

mark bush tech article in dirt late model magazine talks about it if you can get a hold of a copy

[sidewinder69]

what issue ?

[jr dirt]

It is illegal if it is bolted on. It is not if it is slide onto axle tube. There are companies now making l/r axle tubes out of tungsten for the very affordable price of $6k. It frees the car up on entry & gives a ton of drive off

[sidewinder69]

How does it accomplish that jr dirt?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

How does it accomplish that jr dirt?

Because that is what more lr weight does.

[sidewinder69]

whats difference in doing that vs putting a piece of lead directly above it on chassis. thats the theory im looking for

[zeroracing]

You don't have to pick it up on the bars, lower so less will transfer through cornering.

[Flyin Iowan]

i believe its novembers issue

[jr dirt]

When the weight is directly on the axle, the weight is not transferred through the bars, springs, shocks, body roll etc... like it is when its mounted above the suspension. So if you have the weight on the axle (not bolted to the bird cage), when you accelerate from center off, you have instant load (traction) on the l/r &don't have to wait for weight transfer to the l/r through body roll, shocks, springs, bars etc...

[Stede Bonnet]

So for years and years they've been making the rears lighter, but now the hot tip is to bolt weight right to the tube? Why not just run steel axle tubes? They're cheaper. From what I'm reading on DoD the next meeting will determine weight on suspension parts legality, add to that what your allowed to have your rear made from. I guess now they're gonna make everyone run magnesium rears with titanium axles, Titanium bird cages and maybe carbon fiber brakes in order to save us money... I wish they'd stop with all this legislation I can't afford for them to save me anymore money.

[billetbirdcage]

So for years and years they've been making the rears lighter, but now the hot tip is to bolt weight right to the tube? Why not just run steel axle tubes? They're cheaper. From what I'm reading on DoD the next meeting will determine weight on suspension parts legality, add to that what your allowed to have your rear made from. I guess now they're gonna make everyone run magnesium rears with titanium axles, Titanium bird cages and maybe carbon fiber brakes in order to save us money... I wish they'd stop with all this legislation I can't afford for them to save me anymore money.

I know many think this is all new but it's not, it's been going on for least 2 years by some and probably longer. It's just got taken to an extreme by many that it's become more visible and has slowly gotten out.

That being said: The part where they are going to discuss this on rules: "the Council will meet at PRI in December to address weighted suspension components, rear end construction materials and axels."

This can be interpreted in several ways, first is they are going to try to stop unnecessary weight on the rear end which is going to be pretty difficult and/or the second is making exotic material illegal. I feel they are talking about the exotic material like tungsten and possibly just out outlawing titanium just for cost reasons. Just think what could happen when a certain someone's 50# wheel Spacer breaks off the axle snout and sends a 100+# wheel/tire/hub combo into the stands, that thing won't stop for 2 miles!!!

They can't or won't enforce that the bodies have to be straight (1" tolerance), so sure make a ton of more rules no one will enforce or check after the first race with the new rules. However there are things happening that are not very safe and does need to be addressed. Nothing wrong with some of these things but they need to be done correctly so it's safe for the other drivers, crews and fans.

[Stede Bonnet]

I know many think this is all new but it's not, it's been going on for least 2 years by some and probably longer. It's just got taken to an extreme by many that it's become more visible and has slowly gotten out.

That being said: The part where they are going to discuss this on rules: "the Council will meet at PRI in December to address weighted suspension components, rear end construction materials and axels."

This can be interpreted in several ways, first is they are going to try to stop unnecessary weight on the rear end which is going to be pretty difficult and/or the second is making exotic material illegal. I feel they are talking about the exotic material like tungsten and possibly just out outlawing titanium just for cost reasons. Just think what could happen when a certain someone's 50# wheel Spacer breaks off the axle snout and sends a 100+# wheel/tire/hub combo into the stands, that thing won't stop for 2 miles!!!

They can't or won't enforce that the bodies have to be straight (1" tolerance), so sure make a ton of more rules no one will enforce or check after the first race with the new rules. However there are things happening that are not very safe and does need to be addressed. Nothing wrong with some of these things but they need to be done correctly so it's safe for the other drivers, crews and fans.

Are they really putting weighted wheel covers on? That is dangerous... Weight on the tube I get(No Biggie), kinda surprised it took this long to become popular. If they're getting rid of exotic materials that's fine, but your right its just something else they won't tech. Speaking of body rules, you ever notice bloomer's car always becomes dished on the RS once they start racing.

Have a good day, Billett.

[JustAddDirt]

Are they really putting weighted wheel spacers on? If so, that's just stupid, the rotating mass would be insane. Just build a weaker engine if its spooling up to quick for ya. Weight on the tube I get, kinda surprised it took this long to become popular. If they're getting rid of exotic materials that's fine, but your right its just something else they won't tech. Speaking of body rules, you ever notice bloomer's car always becomes dished on the RS once they start racing. Trends and people who chase them blindly make me laugh, LOL.

Have a good day, Billett.

yes LR wheel spacers that are made of heavy Mallory material
helps slow down the zing of the motor and helps from chattering tires on entry and keeps things momentiumed up.

[JustAddDirt]

speed/traction or safety.
fine line I guess

[Stede Bonnet]

speed/traction or safety.
fine line I guess

I'm not gonna put others at risk with something like a weighted wheel cover. The wheel spacer is smart and to me a non-issue. I love innovation, trying new things, going in a different direction, but I won't risk you or anybody else getting hurt on something so stupid and senseless.

[Matt49]

I'm not gonna put others at risk with something like that, I'll just think harder and look for a solution that's less likely to kill or seriously injure someone. Seems like building for less power would make the most sense from an economic/performance standpoint. If you can't use it its wasted money, but I guess I'm crazy to think that way. I love innovation, trying new things, going in a different direction, but I won't risk you or anybody else getting hurt on something so stupid and senseless.

At the national/touring level, I think the challenge with just building for less power is that you need 900+ in qualifying but only need 400 at some places by feature time. A good driver can tame a big motor when it gets slick. But if it's WTFO track conditions and you don't have it, you just don't have it.

[Kromulous]

Steel Axle tubes, and steel birdcages, how much added weight would that be?

I suppose you could line the inside of a steel tube with a smaller tube, and pour lead between, that would be an idea. Say fill in a 1/4" gap with led?

I have always wondered about this, adding to the LR axle, wieght but have never tried it.

[JustAddDirt]

It works. At least the wheel weights do.

[grt74]

Steel Axle tubes, and steel birdcages, how much added weight would that be?

I suppose you could line the inside of a steel tube with a smaller tube, and pour lead between, that would be an idea. Say fill in a 1/4" gap with led?

I have always wondered about this, adding to the LR axle, wieght but have never tried it.

cup has a rule on this, they caught guys lining the tubes with tungsten,this is an old asphalt trick

[Stede Bonnet]

Lining the inside of the tube makes sense, having a #40 wheel cover, that's reckless endangerment. As far as going from 900hp down to 400hp, why not a restrictor plate, I know Jay D!ckens experimented with it.

[Matt49]

I'm telling you, boys, this is all going the wrong direction and it's going there fast! We've had rules for years to limit how light we could make things and now that somebody has figured out a little trick (AKA, understanding the laws of physics), we're going to end up with rules on how heavy we can make things. The box is getting smaller every year. This is turning into NASCAR right before our eyes and it's a matter of time before we're just told "here are the rear end components you can use and here are the two places (which we own both) you can go to buy them".

[zeroracing]

Matt49, could not agree more, changing classes looks more appetizing every day.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I am with you guys.

[MBR Performance]

I love the innovation part but what I don't like is the incurred cost. There is one person right now that has a LR tube made from tungsten. The price for that is $5500.00 now I'm not saying you need to have it but you are racing against it. There needs to be some limitations but not to the extent of NASCAR.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I love the innovation part but what I don't like is the incurred cost. There is one person right now that has a LR tube made from tungsten. The price for that is $5500.00 now I'm not saying you need to have it but you are racing against it. There needs to be some limitations but not to the extent of NASCAR.
Most of the folks on here are not racing against it. And, if the rules are no so limiting, you could get the weight cheaper. That is, if you really need that kind of weight.

[Stede Bonnet]

I love the innovation part but what I don't like is the incurred cost. There is one person right now that has a LR tube made from tungsten. The price for that is $5500.00 now I'm not saying you need to have it but you are racing against it. There needs to be some limitations but not to the extent of NASCAR.

A fool and his money are soon parted, a $5500 axle tube is foolish. Like MBracer said there are cheaper ways to get that kind of weight. I raced karts for several years and there are never a shortage of dopes willing to buy the secret component, but I've outrun them too on a 3rd the money spent. Matt49 is right too, the rules are moving to fast and getting a bit far reaching, this is why I was never in favor of centralized power in DLM world.
The Unified Rules Committee(aka WRG) has found daddy's gun and is waving it around like an idiot on crack.

[Lizardracing]

Years ago I was a tech inspector for UMP and I quit because when I enforced rules I got call from UMP complaining about it. I wasn't willing to go against my principles for a measly $50 a night. The company that supplied the transponders wanted us to put them on the LR or RR axle tube and not that body or chassis because they said they find they are more reliable and less prone to vibration failure.
Ballast may be SAFER bolted to the axle tube!

The only reason WRG/UMP/(alphabet governing rules) get that kind of power over the racer is because the racers keep showing up anyway. They might complain and whine and throw temper tantrums yet they continue to show up and give them money. The power is in the racers and fans to change by working together as a group and when they as a group finally stand up and say enough is enough then taking your money and giving nothing back will continue. Behaviors gone unchecked will continue.

[RCJ]

If you were on a hard tire on a slick slow track, I can see unspung weight helping build tire temps.It works or flexes the tire differently.
If you told a racer to hang 20lbs in front of the l/r, as low and as far left as possible.First thing he's going to say is" that going to kill all my side bite".If you say "Here is a secret 20lbs spacer your superhero is running" you can sell that.

[Stede Bonnet]

Years ago I was a tech inspector for UMP and I quit because when I enforced rules I got call from UMP complaining about it. I wasn't willing to go against my principles for a measly $50 a night. The company that supplied the transponders wanted us to put them on the LR or RR axle tube and not that body or chassis because they said they find they are more reliable and less prone to vibration failure.
Ballast may be SAFER bolted to the axle tube!

The only reason WRG/UMP/(alphabet governing rules) get that kind of power over the racer is because the racers keep showing up anyway. They might complain and whine and throw temper tantrums yet they continue to show up and give them money. The power is in the racers and fans to change by working together as a group and when they as a group finally stand up and say enough is enough then taking your money and giving nothing back will continue. Behaviors gone unchecked will continue.
You are a wise man. Perhaps a racers union should be formed?


If you were on a hard tire on a slick slow track, I can see unspung weight helping build tire temps.It works or flexes the tire differently.
If you told a racer to hang 20lbs in front of the l/r, as low and as far left as possible.First thing he's going to say is" that going to kill all my side bite".If you say "Here is a secret 20lbs spacer your superhero is running" you can sell that.

There is a difference in hanging weight low/left on chassis than on the axle. Low/Left on chassis will effect weight transfer and body roll, on the axle its more or less fixed/dead weight. Trends swing like pendulums, from one extreme to the other, in my early days having a lite weight axle tube was thought of as a "Must" now it seems we've gone to far with the sprung/unsprung theory and are swinging back the other way. You stay around the sport long enough and lots of things come and go, its one of the things that keep me interested. Leafs to swing-arm, swing-arm to 4 link, 4 link to swing-arm and back to 4 link. This is the way its always been, seeking something a little better, but it always goes too far and then the trend reverses. Sadly now we have this regulation over reach that wants to bring all the innovation to an end and go cookie-cutter, which is boring and expensive. I'm for safety, but it seems 99% of us are being left out of the conversation and being saddled with 99% of the bill. The wheel cover/spacer deal I understand because it endangers everyone, more so the cover. The fire suppression systems should've been given a grace period for compliance, IMHO. The mandatory sfi 29.2 rated stuff are the biggest ticket items for sure and springing ALL this at once is gonna have an impact on at least the early shows for next year locally I'm sure. The seat thing pi$$e$ me off, because there is data coming out that suggests some of these seats are directly related to increased concussion injuries. I've seen 2 roll overs this year, where both drivers had all the FC/HANS/SFI-39.2 latest and greatest. Neither rollover was spectacular and didn't involve a hard impact, but both drivers received concussions with lingering effects and resulted in one retirement. Now this "Unified Rules" bunch is telling me I have to strap myself in to a seat that will likely injure me and I don't even have to wreck to get injured because of it... I'm not happy.

What should have happened as a ramp up, is to have rules on fuel lines and couplings and enforce that, with a (#50)weight break if you install a 39.2 fuel cell and (#25)weight break for the FC seat. Use market forces and personal choice to drive the change. Unilateral rule/law enactment is a dictatorial style move and I don't like it.

[Modified18]

So how are these guys melting the tungsten down and containing it to make whatever shape the want? Quick research show melting point of tungsten to be around 6,200 degrees. Thanks

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

So how are these guys melting the tungsten down and containing it to make whatever shape the want? Quick research show melting point of tungsten to be around 6,200 degrees. Thanks
You don't. You machine it.

[manwplan]

A fool and his money are soon parted, a $5500 axle tube is foolish. Like MBracer said there are cheaper ways to get that kind of weight. I raced karts for several years and there are never a shortage of dopes willing to buy the secret component, but I've outrun them too on a 3rd the money spent. Matt49 is right too, the rules are moving to fast and getting a bit far reaching, this is why I was never in favor of centralized power in DLM world.
The Unified Rules Committee(aka WRG) has found daddy's gun and is waving it around like an idiot on crack.

The unified rules committee is as much Lucas as it is WRG if not more. Remember Lucas is the group that led the suspension rules last year and Lucas is who is leading the is current deal. WRG doesn't really have a spine and they are along for the ride to do whatever Lucas wants.

[slide-skill]

cup has a rule on this, they caught guys lining the tubes with tungsten,this is an old asphalt trickWhoops , I thought everybody had forgotten that trick ! Daytona 2001

[a25rjr]

Anyone remember the steel tube protectors made by Coleman a few years ago?

[softshoe72]

Anyone looking for tungsten i have some 2 5/8" X 3 5/8" X 6" 36lb blocks for $1200 a piece ... they retail for $1800 text 7047465255

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The unified rules committee is as much Lucas as it is WRG if not more. Remember Lucas is the group that led the suspension rules last year and Lucas is who is leading the is current deal. WRG doesn't really have a spine and they are along for the ride to do whatever Lucas wants.

Lucas screwed it up and WRG mostly went along. They are not the same entity.

[manwplan]

Lucas screwed it up and WRG mostly went along. They are not the same entity.

That's pretty much what I meant. That was the simple way to put it.

[calverton]

its not just wrg or lucas thats's in this game ,The Council’s sanctioning body committee met in October to develop unified specifications for all Council members, including the World of Outlaws, Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series, MLRA, Ultimate Series, Southern Nationals Series, ALMS, MARS, DIRTcar Racing and Eldora Speedway. All dirt late model sanctioning series will be encouraged to adopt the specifications effective January 1, 2017.

[Stede Bonnet]

"Tungsten on LR axle tube" - I have some for sale its 2 5/8"X 3 5/8" X 6" and is 36lbs ... $1200 a piece it retails for over $1800 text 7047465255
I think this guy is trying to recover his investment ahead of a rule change...

[turtle1hp]

Is the added weight only beneficial if it is on the left? Are there any benefits, or side effects, from adding weight to the right as well?

[RCJ]

The formula for weight transfer is (Total weight X g force X c/g height) divided by track width.I know weight transfer is a moving target and some chicken or the egg type problems but it doesn't make provision for unsprung or sprung.In my experiences lower unsprung is better.I do wonder, from the work Bloomer has done with Penski, are they trying to change the natural frequencies?

[Matt49]

The formula for weight transfer is (Total weight X g force X c/g height) divided by track width.I know weight transfer is a moving target and some chicken or the egg type problems but it doesn't make provision for unsprung or sprung.In my experiences lower unsprung is better.I do wonder, from the work Bloomer has done with Penski, are they trying to change the natural frequencies?

This is exactly what I was thinking. With the insane amount of compression dampening being run in the LR, we probably need MORE sprung mass to achieve critical dampening. The LR being TOO stiff is causing the car to "bounce" on the LR and not providing consistent traction at the contact patch.
There's another solution to this problem (if in fact it is the problem) but that would not be legal under the "unified" rules.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

This is exactly what I was thinking. With the insane amount of compression dampening being run in the LR, we probably need MORE sprung mass to achieve critical dampening. The LR being TOO stiff is causing the car to "bounce" on the LR and not providing consistent traction at the contact patch.
There's another solution to this problem (if in fact it is the problem) but that would not be legal under the "unified" rules.

Penske has an illegal solution.

[Matt49]

Penske has an illegal solution.

Yes, they do...

[7uptruckracer]

Yes, they do...
Are we taking to shocked spring bar or inerter shock or fric shock lol

[stockcar5]

Would a thick steel tube get the job done? Say 3/8 or even 1/2 thick?

[JustAddDirt]

Steel tubes on a mod quickchange are 1/4-5/16" thick
I am figuring if you ordered a steel tube for a LM QC it would be the same

[a25rjr]

How would a sanctioning body tech tungsten, esp if lr componenets could be made out of it?

[billetbirdcage]

How would a sanctioning body tech tungsten, esp if lr componenets could be made out of it?

A magnet!!

[a25rjr]

A magnet!!

LOL obviously! I was really referring to the weight of them. Are they planning to weigh them somehow?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

LOL obviously! I was really referring to the weight of them. Are they planning to weigh them somehow?

Considering their failings with the tape measure, unlikely!

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

A magnet!!

maybe a geiger counter for uranium tubes! lol

[Renegade Cust Susp]

maybe a geiger counter for uranium tubes! lol

You sir win the interweb with this response

[rakracing]

Actually heard from a good source of someone on the tour running a tungsten lr hub , and guys filling the lr hub with lead.

[billetbirdcage]

LOL obviously! I was really referring to the weight of them. Are they planning to weigh them somehow?

I seriously doubt they are going to try to put some weight rule on components, the terms they used as to be discussed can be interpreted several ways. I think many are thinking they are going to say no heavy axle tubes or what not, but I'd say they are just going to outlaw exotic materials like tungsten, titanium, and etc.

Just wait a couple weeks and see if they pass what they are talking about doing on a couple of whole different items. If they do, you will see the cost get driven up a ton for certain things. Nothing like taking something many do that is cheap as hell now and try to outlaw it, but there is a 1000 ways around it (which or how many ways is dependent on how they write these new rules) and many of them are going to cost 5 to 100 times what it costs now.

They can't or won't tech a body, but they are talking of making more rules that is gonna require possibly dynoing a shock to make sure it's legal or having to put the coilover on a smasher to verify you aren't illegal.

Hell, I wouldn't even sweat the fuel cell, fire suppression, or seat crap after the first race of the year. Hell if it looks half way like what it's supposed to be, they won't ever tech it anyways left alone look for a SFI sticker. I'd bet a 1000.00 I could take a Nitrous bottle and paint it white and slap some fake fire company sticker on it and it'd pass their inspection for fire suppression.

With the fire suppression rule I'm wondering how long before the first crate car that's gonna get caught with Nitrous????????

I might even take all the safety stuff off an new SFI approved cell or disable it just to go thru tech to prove the point that they don't or can't tech for $HIT.

[manwplan]

Actually heard from a good source of someone on the tour running a tungsten lr hub , and guys filling the lr hub with lead.

That's insane. While there are reasons for increasing unsprung weight, under no circumstances would you ever want to increase rotating weight.

[GRT62]

so how long till we see tungsten bird cages on the market?

[Renegade Cust Susp]

so how long till we see tungsten bird cages on the market?

They are already among us

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That's insane. While there are reasons for increasing unsprung weight, under no circumstances would you ever want to increase rotating weight.

Are you sure about that?

[manwplan]

Are you sure about that?

In this instance I'm quite sure. Do you realize the brake forces required to slow down that heavy rotating mass once it got moving?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

In this instance I'm quite sure. Do you realize the brake forces required to slow down that heavy rotating mass once it got moving?

Yes I am. We typically don't tax the brakes that badly. And when you have 300 ft-lbs more torque than it takes to spin the wheels, inertia is free, legal traction control.

The davis units were designed to limit rpm sweep rate. What does inertia do?

[a25rjr]

I seriously doubt they are going to try to put some weight rule on components, the terms they used as to be discussed can be interpreted several ways. I think many are thinking they are going to say no heavy axle tubes or what not, but I'd say they are just going to outlaw exotic materials like tungsten, titanium, and etc.

Just wait a couple weeks and see if they pass what they are talking about doing on a couple of whole different items. If they do, you will see the cost get driven up a ton for certain things. Nothing like taking something many do that is cheap as hell now and try to outlaw it, but there is a 1000 ways around it (which or how many ways is dependent on how they write these new rules) and many of them are going to cost 5 to 100 times what it costs now.

They can't or won't tech a body, but they are talking of making more rules that is gonna require possibly dynoing a shock to make sure it's legal or having to put the coilover on a smasher to verify you aren't illegal.

Hell, I wouldn't even sweat the fuel cell, fire suppression, or seat crap after the first race of the year. Hell if it looks half way like what it's supposed to be, they won't ever tech it anyways left alone look for a SFI sticker. I'd bet a 1000.00 I could take a Nitrous bottle and paint it white and slap some fake fire company sticker on it and it'd pass their inspection for fire suppression.

With the fire suppression rule I'm wondering how long before the first crate car that's gonna get caught with Nitrous????????

I might even take all the safety stuff off an new SFI approved cell or disable it just to go thru tech to prove the point that they don't or can't tech for $HIT.

I was referring to exotic materials being used for suspension components (bird cages, hubs, wheel spacers).

LOL...as far as the nitrous bottle deal....I know someone very well who was using one.....but not for fire suppression (but had the sticker on it)...LOL

[rakracing]

Grt62, that's exactly what he said is next tungsten birdcages

[twisterf5]

this is not the class i run but i do run a 4 bar car QC rear end. i made this post here because i thought i would get the best info on this set up and it sure did. our series we run has no rule on this now but will be banned next year. i did not wont to be the guy that his lead came off and hurt some one. so i made some lead donuts to go in the tube only bad part is not something you can take out at the track. but felt it was safer.

[manwplan]

this is not the class i run but i do run a 4 bar car QC rear end. i made this post here because i thought i would get the best info on this set up and it sure did. our series we run has no rule on this now but will be banned next year. i did not wont to be the guy that his lead came off and hurt some one. so i made some lead donuts to go in the tube only bad part is not something you can take out at the track. but felt it was safer.

I can not state enough that if you think lead is dangerous on the axle tube then it is dangerous anywhere else on the car. If you mount lead properly it won't fall off. Where anyone got the idea that lead can only fall off when mounted to the axle tube is beyond me.

[zeroracing]

^^^^ agree 100%, if you can't safely mount it to something like an axle tube you can't safely mount it any where In the car

[sidewinder69]

Would it be beneficial to run steel cage and steel axle tube on right side as well?

[Renegade Cust Susp]

Would think you would add unsprung rear %. So it wouldn't add static LR, and may help overall drive instead of just driving LR more...

[Krooser]

http://www.keysermanufacturing.com/cache/ex_q75_w430_h350_images_Anna_AxleWeightClamp.png

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

http://www.keysermanufacturing.com/cache/ex_q75_w430_h350_images_Anna_AxleWeightClamp.png

I think that was at PRI 2015.

[billetbirdcage]

I think that was at PRI 2015.

Yes it was, many just didn't see it or know what it was for because it was on a rear end in the booth but didn't have anything attached to the clamp.

[Cranky]

So are you guys just using this weight on the rear to calculate the bite numbers as well or are you countering it with weight on the RR frame to keep bite numbers to a minimum?

[Ltemodel]

I think the lead on the LR tube has to do more with axle limiting and traction.

If you run a chain or a shock on the front of the LR to limit the height, at one point the chain will snap and pull traction out of the LR. Once the tire starts to spin, it blows up like a dragster tire leaving the line.

Once the tire grows and the stretch leaves, the tire looses traction. Putting a ton of lead on the tube will keep traction in the car even when it limits out on the chain.

The sprung weight can still move around and transfer the same around the car, but the LR tire always stays connected.

[RW57]

Talked to friend of mine this week also a track promoter said racern at his track picked up a new car not gonna say brand just not a major player yet but rapidly getting there . Car had steel LR axle tube steel birdcage on LR. Also had hub filled with some kind of heavy expensive metal also LR brake rotor had more of same heavy metal inserted into cooling fins on LR.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Talked to friend of mine this week also a track promoter said racern at his track picked up a new car not gonna say brand just not a major player yet but rapidly getting there . Car had steel LR axle tube steel birdcage on LR. Also had hub filled with some kind of heavy expensive metal also LR brake rotor had more of same heavy metal inserted into cooling fins on LR.

You know how racers think. 25# made me pick up a tenth. 250# and I lap the field. Lol

[Krooser]

Using that reasoning MBR I should be able to strap my butt to the axle and win Daytona with a street stock.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Using that reasoning MBR I should be able to strap my butt to the axle and win Daytona with a street stock.....

The other guys are racing street stocks too! lol

[Krooser]

If Brian France sez it I believe it.....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

If Brian France sez it I believe it.....

They may spend millions, but those are still street stock suspensions.

[hotshoe65s]

I'm telling you, boys, this is all going the wrong direction and it's going there fast! We've had rules for years to limit how light we could make things and now that somebody has figured out a little trick (AKA, understanding the laws of physics), we're going to end up with rules on how heavy we can make things. The box is getting smaller every year. This is turning into NASCAR right before our eyes and it's a matter of time before we're just told "here are the rear end components you can use and here are the two places (which we own both) you can go to buy them".

While your point is completely valid, and now is the time to address the rules issue, I will give you a little hope and let you know dirt racing is way way way better off than NASCAR. And I think you know where I work. We spend upwards of 3 hours in pre-race tech every week. The amount of pre and post race tech that dirt racing has is amazing compared to NASCAR. NASCAR confiscates three cars every race and takes them back to their headquarters and takes them down to chassis. I think where the rules were at last year were a good place, and they should only do stuff for safety now. Which I think is why they are considering the lead on suspension components. That unsprung weight acting on the housing is just asking to break a tube and send the tire, wheel and tube flying, which poses a safety risk.
- Dustin

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

While your point is completely valid, and now is the time to address the rules issue, I will give you a little hope and let you know dirt racing is way way way better off than NASCAR. And I think you know where I work. We spend upwards of 3 hours in pre-race tech every week. The amount of pre and post race tech that dirt racing has is amazing compared to NASCAR. NASCAR confiscates three cars every race and takes them back to their headquarters and takes them down to chassis. I think where the rules were at last year were a good place, and they should only do stuff for safety now. Which I think is why they are considering the lead on suspension components. That unsprung weight acting on the housing is just asking to break a tube and send the tire, wheel and tube flying, which poses a safety risk.
- Dustin

The rules from 2014 are plenty good enough. They just need enforced. The current rulebook requires nearly Nascar level inspection to be enforced properly. I have good reason to believe the inspection process is going to steadily increase in length.

[Matt49]

Dustin, it is good hearing from you and you are certainly in a position to share some real world experience of what the "next level" looks like.
In dirt racing, I think we are really dealing with a few different issues here that are compounding into a larger complex problem:
1) People that don't know anything about race cars are policing the competition of said machines.
2) They already don't enforce the rules that they have yet they keep adding more.
3) Many rules that are created in an attempt to save racers money do just the opposite.

[a25rjr]

Aint it funny.....NASCAR hires ex-cheating crew chiefs to be inspectors. Dirt series hires joe blow off the street! smh

[TALON75]

Lucas's new tech is no joe blow off the street.

[billetbirdcage]

Lucas's new tech is no joe blow off the street.

correct, he will straighten (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) out.

Wasn't sure it was released yet, as I never looked.

[Krooser]

http://hogantechnologies.com/left-rear-axle-weight-dirt-late-models-modifieds/

[Drop Shock]

Just to update, someone I know talked with the new Lucas tech guy and he said they were going to be weighing rearends in Georgia and Florida

[toyracer]

Drop Shock. Do you know what they are saying the weight should be or is there a minimum/maximum rule?

Just curious

[Drop Shock]

The way I understand it they are going to be talking with each chassis manufacturer and the rearend can't be a certain amount more than how they're sold from the manufacturer. Sounds a little weird since some of the builders (Bloomquist and Richards) are thought to have started this trend

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The way I understand it they are going to be talking with each chassis manufacturer and the rearend can't be a certain amount more than how they're sold from the manufacturer. Sounds a little weird since some of the builders (Bloomquist and Richards) are thought to have started this trend

So, Bloomer can say what his is allowed to weigh? Lol

[billetbirdcage]

The way I understand it they are going to be talking with each chassis manufacturer and the rearend can't be a certain amount more than how they're sold from the manufacturer. Sounds a little weird since some of the builders (Bloomquist and Richards) are thought to have started this trend

This was the original plan but has changed thus the hold up on rules, They were indeed going to weight the whole hanging weight of the rear end via something along the lines of something similar to a hanging fishing scale from the chassis to the rear end on both sides. The number that was talked about was 280# (have to assume they were talking with wheels and tires also). However the problem I see with this is this (#1) and they should have done it this way IMO (#2)

#1 There no left to right weight just a total, that means you could run the lightest most exotic rear end to get the total weight down and then pile it on the left side. Or make the right side, center section, ring gear, and spool as light as possible to move that weight to the left side and still be at the minimal total weight. This may stop some of it, but not fully to those that can afford to spend a ton of extra money to use really light stuff and replace it all the time because it may not hold up for long.

#2 My idea is to simply jack car up unhook rear shocks and set the tires down on 2 scale pads and weigh the whole hanging weight of the rear end. Then settle on some total number for the rear end or a number for each side. You could go like 280# but with only half or 60% on the left side. Just have to pick a number and go with it, as it shouldn't be that hard to get a average and that way everyone knows where they stand. This way is simple and don't take long to check and is likely the fairest way you going to find and the easiest to tech with the least amount of time.

I don't think the rules are in print yet, so I won't post them but you will laugh when you see them. Least this 4th or 5th version is somewhat simpler then the other versions you have to wonder about them anyways. What’s crazy is you won’t be allowed to bolt weight on the rear end (cheap and still not legal with a manufactured clamp like Kyser’s) but you can spend whatever they want for a really heavy cage and be legal, lol.

[Brian Gray]

Easier way, ultra sonic tester call a max tube thickness, and a spring loaded punch.

[talclipse]

The problem with measuring the thickness is it doesnt address the issue of someone using an insert inside the tube (tungsten/ lead). Unfortunately the only way I see to tech this is to weigh the rear end assembly.

[Kromulous]

Who is gonna tech this tuff? Serously?

Have to go to a race at 9am just to get in tech line to make hot laps at 6pm.

Its gonna be NASCAR all over again.

Time to sell...

[MBR Performance]

The best idea is to leave it alone and quit trying to have a rule for every (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing. Diversity breeds competition.

[Matt49]

The best idea is to leave it alone and quit trying to have a rule for every (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing. Diversity breeds competition.

And we have a winner...

[fastford]

im with you guys, leave it alone, only rule should be for safety, meaning how the weight is attached , or any thing that appears to be a safety hazard. if there is no danger ,then who cares how much the left rear weighs.

[Brian Gray]

Do you plan on floating that lead insert on some kind of superconductors? Then you would be able to hide it from a sonic tester. Look this goes beyond innovation you cannot just let it all go, we tried that once in case many of you forgot or haven't been alive that long.

[Bubstr]

Too many rules now. This took a cheap bolt on weight and turned it into a expensive tube and bird cage that can't be checked easy. Make the bolts strong enough and no one has an advantage. If it is not enforceable, it is a bad rule.

[fastford]

seems to me if i wanted to use a steel left rear tube , an all steel left rear bird cage made from 1/2 in plate and an old steel wide 5 hub on left rear, whats wrong with that? i think it would achieve the same results. When you ( rule makers) start telling us how much each side of the rear has to weigh, then i say nascar is here........

[powerslide]

seems to me if i wanted to use a steel left rear tube , an all steel left rear bird cage made from 1/2 in plate and an old steel wide 5 hub on left rear, whats wrong with that? i think it would achieve the same results. When you ( rule makers) start telling us how much each side of the rear has to weigh, then i say nascar is here........

That would be great but guys take it to the extreme and everyone in the monkey see monkey do goes out and buys the unobtanium as well instead of bolting on lead. Have to do something to keep cost in check. I feel like they missed the boat on wide bore motors so they are trying to do something the past couple seasons, right wrong or indifferent.

[stock car driver]

If your fine with adding rotating weight just put 5 gallons of water in your lr tire... youll get massive amounts of tire distortion and traction and it wont leave the lr.

My rock crawler has 200lbs in each front tire.. Its only noticeable from a dead stop, the 3800 converter gets up there a lot higher than it did when there was no fluid in my front tires.

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu150/jnjfab/2016%20Jalopy%20Yj/855F4492-4521-4B67-9D96-B205A8D3DE8A_zpsja6bpkir.jpg (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jnjfab/media/2016%20Jalopy%20Yj/855F4492-4521-4B67-9D96-B205A8D3DE8A_zpsja6bpkir.jpg.html)

[over4T]

What do you put in the front tires to gain 200 lbs.? It sure isn't water.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That would be great but guys take it to the extreme and everyone in the monkey see monkey do goes out and buys the unobtanium as well instead of bolting on lead. Have to do something to keep cost in check. I feel like they missed the boat on wide bore motors so they are trying to do something the past couple seasons, right wrong or indifferent.

That is only a problem if the unobtainium gives you an advantage.

[stock car driver]

What do you put in the front tires to gain 200 lbs.? It sure isn't water.

Water and anti freeze. 50/50.

[fastford]

i saw a guy try the water thing one time in an old EC3 tire, the whole rear end would hop off the ground when he tried to get up to speed , funniest thing i ever saw a race car do. i guess the distortion got it all out of balance or something. By the way, thats is a nice looking machine there SCD.

[stock car driver]

I have no issues at 65 or up and down speed. I never tried it in my race car tire.

[lindsey97]

I would imagine as soft as the late model tires are, that water would act like a piece of lead inside the tire when you get up to speed. I know that fluid in a tractor tire will make it stiffer than having air with wheel weights on it. I don't think I would want to be close to a car with fluid in the tires at speed.

[Drop Shock]

Yea I just talked to someone in the loop the loop and he said the weighing the rearends thing is off, but they're gonna up the weight rule to 2350. The way I see it that is just gonna make it to where Bloomer and the other guys running tungsten stuff, now they're not gonna be 100+ pounds over weight.

[let-r-eat]

Nothing is FAIR in LOVE, RACING, OR WAR>

[Stede Bonnet]

Yea I just talked to someone in the loop the loop and he said the weighing the rearends thing is off, but they're gonna up the weight rule to 2350. The way I see it that is just gonna make it to where Bloomer and the other guys running tungsten stuff, now they're not gonna be 100+ pounds over weight.

and still they tap dance around the #800 gorilla in the room and the rule book thickens, day by day.


... Which I think is why they are considering the lead on suspension components. That unsprung weight acting on the housing is just asking to break a tube and send the tire, wheel and tube flying, which poses a safety risk.
- Dustin
The argument that putting weight on the tube is gonna make it break is absurd too, with all the force put onto the tub from the car itself thru the birdcage, another #50, #100, #200 I don't see having any effect on tube life expectancy. That argument just demonstrates further the complete and total lack of competency at the legislative level in the DLM world. They are clueless and lost in the tall grass...

LISTEN, WE NEED FEWER RULES NOT MORE RULES TO DEAL WITH THE UGLY SIDE EFFECTS FROM THE LAST ROUND OF RULES. YOUR MISGUIDED "RUMLEY RULE" IS WHAT MADE THIS ALL HAPPEN, YOU PENALIZED A GUY FOR BEING SMART, WHICH IS ABOUT AS UN-AMERICAN AS YOU CAN BE. WHEN YOU OUTLAW CREATIVITY AND INGENUITY, YOU INVITE MONEY TO TAKE ITS PLACE, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. THEN YOU WROTE IN NEW RULES THAT MADE RAYBURN SWINGARMS ILLEGAL. YOU GUYS ARE WRONG, JUST WRONG AND YOUR MAKING A BIGGER AND BIGGER MESS OF THINGS THE FURTHER YOU GO. IF YOU ARE GENUINELY CONCERNED ABOUT BREAKAGE AND FLYING PARTS JUST ADD TETHERS TO THE BIRDCAGE AND BE DONE WITH IT.

ROLL BACK THE RULES TO 2014, ADD SOME TETHERS AND GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS, STOP ALL THIS NAPCAR/NASCRAP WANNA BE BUSINESS, THEY SUCK AND ARE IN DECLINE AS WE SPEAK. I"VE ALREADY MADE MY DECISION TO MOVE ON AFTER 30 YEARS INVOLVEMENT IN DLM RACING AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE, "RUMLEY RULE" YOU GUYS PUT IN PLACE. ALL THIS ELITISM WILL EVENTUALLY KILL THE SPORT.

[talclipse]

Laying two pieces of metal on top of one another does not give an adequate sound path for an ultrasonic thickness measurement. I work in industry where we use high end ultrasonics on a daily basis and its just not possible. You can do it with materials that are bonded together with a good thickness gauge (not the digital readout deals) and a competent technician. Something else to keep in mind is that each material has a unique material velocity which in turn changes how thick the meter would measure it. Not saying to tech or not tech but ultrasonic thickness is not the answer.

[CCHIEF]

Discreet tungsten/Platinum brake caliper ..perhaps Uranium or Plutonium! Or go for the bling and use Gold!

[billetbirdcage]

Rules are posted now

[mod10p]

Where are rules posted, when I go to lucasdirt it still says 2016 rules?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Where are rules posted, when I go to lucasdirt it still says 2016 rules?

Dirt on dirt has the weight specific rules.

[CCHIEF]

http://dirtondirt.com/story_9445.html .......................... http://dirtondirt.com/dirtwire.php?id=4176

[Krooser]

Back in '73 we had three rules for LM's in NE WI.... '66 or newer... 11" tire... single four barrel. Packed grandstands... packed pits. Sometimes progress takes us backwards...

[RCJ]

Isn't 40lbs max for a wheel and tire very heavy.I haven't weighed one but I threw one on a tire rack once.

[Ltemodel]

Isn't 40lbs max for a wheel and tire very heavy.I haven't weighed one but I threw one on a tire rack once.

It's pretty close. I think many I've weighed are in the thirties. Some tires (mold designs) are a little heavier than others and wheel manufacturers vary in weight slightly.

I can see rules to make things safer or cost less, but it blows my mind the direction rules makers are going to limit some of the less expensive parts of the sport, but, leave one of the most expensive part of the sport totally alone; motors.

Eliminate tungsten, but who cares if every car in the field pours lead inside their axle tube or runs a heavy steel birdcage. A good heavy steel birdcage will last longer (bring costs down) and be safer (not break during a race and cause an accident).

It's getting kind of spooky in this sport.

Next thing you know, everyone will have to paint their cars all a like because flashy brightly colored cars will be a distraction to the other drivers.

[CCHIEF]

http://www.abs-products.com/heavy-metal/price-sheet.shtml

[RCJ]

New WRS 92 on beadlock =38lbs,used wrs90 nonbead=30.With a rib mold it probably would be right at 40

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

New WRS 92 on beadlock =38lbs,used wrs90 nonbead=30.With a rib mold it probably would be right at 40

Which wheel? I have some pretty old ones. Probably illegal now...

[hipower17]

this maybe banded at lucas and woo but what about at the local level?