Lucas rules

[GRT62]

http://lucasdirt.com/home/1798-lucas-oil-late-model-dirt-series-nov-2016-technical-bulletin Looks like the price just went up to be able to run the series.

[cutman]

True, but rules that probably needed to happen

[MBR Performance]

Some of these things are bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) and are going to drive people out of the sport.

[Ryan21mid]

How so? They're looking out for the best interest of the drivers!

[Wells Racing Photos]

Keeping drivers safe while they race is not BS as you stated? If being safe keeps a driver out of the sport, then they have no business being involved anyways.

[MRM]

All of the series will adopt these rules. Since this announcement by Lucas, DirtCar and the Southern Nationals have announced they will also adopt these rules.

[flagone]

All agreed to release at noon today

[BTExpress]

Seriously?????? Why won't you have "everyone" of these safety rules? not wearing gloves, no containment seats, etc. It makes no sense not to have these items.

[Switchback29A1]

the main one i don't understand is the wheel cover hex bolt rule. Are flying wheel covers a low lying problem ive been oblivious too?

[birky time]

Some of these things are bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) and are going to drive people out of the sport.
be honest did you vote for Hillary?

[Ryan21mid]

the main one i don't understand is the wheel cover hex bolt rule. Are flying wheel covers a low lying problem ive been oblivious too?

They can be dangerous, like a flying saw blade, if they come off on the track. I have seen it happen many times. I remember for a long time in our area Dzus fasteners on mud plugs were illegal but guys started running them again a few years ago and now virtually everyone uses them. I heard rumblings last winter that the WoO sprints were going in this direction but never saw any move, maybe this is the start of that. Not a bad idea, just makes removing them during a flat a little more time consuming.

[flagone]

Yes. And it has been a concern from insurance companies for the tracks for some time. There were multiple injuries reported and claims paid for injuries from spectators being hit by a wheel cover.

One of the things we discussed is that the current retro-fit kits that are being manufactured utilize the same bolts as the bead lock itself. So it will be somewhat convenient for tooling as well.

It was just a matter of time before insurance companies began to require this stuff OR more.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

They can be dangerous, like a flying saw blade, if they come off on the track. I have seen it happen many times. I remember for a long time in our area Dzus fasteners on mud plugs were illegal but guys started running them again a few years ago and now virtually everyone uses them. I heard rumblings last winter that the WoO sprints were going in this direction but never saw any move, maybe this is the start of that. Not a bad idea, just makes removing them during a flat a little more time consuming.

May b they can give you 3mins to change flat instead of 2mins to compensate for bolt

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Some of these things are bull(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) and are going to drive people out of the sport.

100% correct.

Install your fuel line with flimsy aluminum fittings. But must buy a new fuel cell that costs 2.5x the one you have. Lol

[eskew11]

As a local
Crate racer I'm not spending over a $1000 for a new fuel cell just because my two year old one comes out the bottom?

[zeroracing]

The rules do not call for a regular containment seat, they call for a 39.2 seat. Hopefully they will amend that portion at the least, I will sell my car and move to another class before I buy one.

[Ryan21mid]

The rules do not call for a regular containment seat, they call for a 39.2 seat. Hopefully they will amend that portion at the least, I will sell my car and move to another class before I buy one.

What's special about a 39.2 seat?

[onlyfacts]

It's come down to a group of series leaders changing and mandating rules to kill the sport we all love. This maybe one of the days we remember a few years from now when there is very few racers left. These leaders need to wake up and understand that there is a certain amount of risk that comes with Motortsports. I am all for improving safety but it can't be at the cost of killing the sport.

[W2Racing09]

It's come down to a group of series leaders changing and mandating rules to kill the sport we all love. This maybe one of the days we remember a few years from now when there is very few racers left. These leaders need to wake up and understand that there is a certain amount of risk that comes with Motortsports. I am all for improving safety but it can't be at the cost of killing the sport.

If someone can afford an $40k (low end) SLM, but can't afford a full containment seat then there is a problem. These safety rules are already in effect on many cars, and they are such a comparatively small percentage of the overall cost of the car and everything that goes towards it.

[06Tireman]

So we replace dzus buttons with bolts with heads sticking out that could shear off and send the cover flying?? Makes absolutely no sense at all..

[dangerdann]

I agree with all the rules but not the sfi seat and sfi fuel cell. Now local guys have to buy a $4000 seat and a special $1500 fuel cell. Definatly need a containment seat and a good cell but thats extensive.

[onlyfacts]

If someone can afford an $40k (low end) SLM, but can't afford a full containment seat then there is a problem. These safety rules are already in effect on many cars, and they are such a comparatively small percentage of the overall cost of the car and everything that goes towards it. Not every late model racing is the most up to date piece of 40K equipment. This sport is made up of all levels of financial operations. Not every car in the pit area is a new 40K Longhorn or XR1. I agree on containment seat mandatory but an SFI 39-2 seat is a min of $5000.00. You have no idea what is entailed here. The fire system that is on this mandate is $900.00. The fuel cell requirement mandated is a min of $1500.00. And the bolt on mud covers is going to be an aggravation more so that cost.... although cost will be something to all racers that will need to update their covers and wheels. Not all racers are going to buy new wheels to upgrade. I can see this being a nail into the coffin of Late Model Racing. Now that 40K Longhorn or XR1 is now near 50K but the big factor here is the fact that ever late model team in the country will be spending 8-10K to update each car(s) the have. Some people woke up happy today with election results but some people didn't. But very few racers will be happy with these rules updates.

[Ryan21mid]

http://fuelsafe.com/store/fuel-cells.html

Here's your FIA-FT3 Certified Lucas/WoO LEGAL fuel cell for $785. You all may be jumping the gun a bit on your predictions.

[cutman]

Not every late model racing is the most up to date piece of 40K equipment. This sport is made up of all levels of financial operations. Not every car in the pit area is a new 40K Longhorn or XR1. I agree on containment seat mandatory but an SFI 39-2 seat is a min of $5000.00. You have no idea what is entailed here. The fire system that is on this mandate is $900.00. The fuel cell requirement mandated is a min of $1500.00. And the bolt on mud covers is going to be an aggravation more so that cost.... although cost will be something to all racers that will need to update their covers and wheels. Not all racers are going to buy new wheels to upgrade. I can see this being a nail into the coffin of Late Model Racing.

Man, gonna be interesting to see how this effects the local racers and car counts.

[nuff said]

This will keep your local racers from being able to run with the big boys when they come to town.

[onlyfacts]

http://fuelsafe.com/store/fuel-cells.html Here's your FIA-FT3 Certified Lucas/WoO LEGAL fuel cell for $785. You all may be jumping the gun a bit on your predictions. You may want to recheck that. That is a 15 gal cell. Most DLM cars are 28-32. That upgrade is 308.00 on that 785.00 cell 1093.00 total without brackets and without even knowing if that cell will fit..... which it won't because Chassis Manufactures have built the cars around special sized cells for better weight placement this is not reality.

[Ryan21mid]

http://www.circletracksupply.com/atl-racing-black-widow-wedge-fuel-cell-atlsp128-lm-nf-28-gallon-no-foam.html

Here's another, again this is similar to what everyone is currently running. Everyone isn't going to have to buy new special $1500+ fuel cells, all this rule is doing is keeping the homemade non-certified cells out.

[onlyfacts]

This will keep your local racers from being able to run with the big boys when they come to town. Exactly. Car counts could be 15-25 for the Tour races at local tracks.

[Ryan21mid]

You may want to recheck that. That is a 15 gal cell. Most DLM cars are 28-32. That upgrade is 308.00 on that 785.00 cell 1093.00 total without brackets and without even knowing if that cell will fit..... which it won't because Chassis Manufactures have built the cars around special sized cells for better weight placement this is not reality.

Sorry, I did miss that price point on the size, my point here is most of your current fuel cells are still going to be legal..

[zeroracing]

I will be going with the the ATL style, i cannot fit a old school square one in. It will run about 1k by the time you get it in.

I will state they better tech the (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) thing!!!!!!!!! I spend $$$ and the other guys don't and nobody says anything I am going to be pissed. Or they decide after half of us go buy them we should give a grace period... How many rules have we had over the years that were never checked? Bladder fuel cells used to be in the rules but never was checked.

[onlyfacts]

Sorry, I did miss that price point on the size, my point here is most of your current fuel cells are still going to be legal.. My point is the fuel cell thing is only one of the items. The seat, fire system and wheel cover deal all added to the fuel cell will drive nails in the coffin.

[flagone]

I would say about 90% of the cars (Ray Cook agreed for his series' as well) that have raced with us this year are already compliant with a containment seat (I think the language may be refined on the SFI 39.2 requirement) and fuel cell.

How anyone would ever think that we don't need to mandate every car has a fire suppression system after the year that we have had I can't comprehend. Remember that the fuel cell and fire suppression systems also directly affect those that you race with not just you. So to me choosing to not wear gloves is on you but these 2 the affect the guy you may land on top of and the guys that have to try to get you out.

[FASTRAKPR]

Someone mentioned crates so I'll respond.

Wheel Covers: We went to plastic a couple years ago now. Yes in more than one instance we witnessed wheel covers come off and go all the way down the front straight at Bulls Gap then proceeded to go another 200 yards out in the pasture outside of turn 1. Then at Princeton one came off in turn 1 and right down through the middle of the pits onto the track in turn 4. Keeping in mind thats where everyone parks too. We let everyone know then that for the upcoming season no more metal wheel covers would be allowed. The teams did a fantastic job with it, sport new wheel covers of every color you could imagine. Made the cars look a lot better and our fans, crews, drivers and Officials a lot safer.

Fire Suppression Systems. We announced at Princeton ironically, and this was in June of this year that beginning in 2017 systems would be required. To start saving $100 a month to make sure they could be ready for 2017. This came from the incident of a driver in Ohio getting burned to death. Our rules is a little different as the thermostat controlled piece will not be mandatory and the pull tab type will be legal with us. Our Officials will go through a rigorous training process this winter to be able to take care of you in the instance of a fire. We will also have "fire blankets" for lack of a better term, so that when the Official comes in the car to get you out, the blanket goes over you first to protect you and the Official as well then when the system is set off, they pull back the blanket along with the driver.

Gloves and fireproof shoes should have always been the case. We all as sanctioning bodies got complacent and it was way past time to make this move. I understand having the "feel" of the car, but when you get used to gloves it will be the same way. You can't get the feel without them.

A fuel cell with the line at the bottom well its just never good. Perfect place to be broken off and fuel is coming out. No fire agent will put out a fire when the fuel continues to flow. I am not personally completely settled on this issue and our working will be out soon on this.

I know I put myself out to a lot of criticism by posting this but you do have the right to know why this is being done and an explanation. Hopefully this helps you understand a little better as to the why. If you have never been on fire its hard to explain to you but I have and this year I have seen people die. Seen others hurt. Once it happens, well then its too late. We are trying to prevent it from happening again is all we are trying to accomplish.

Look at it this way if you can. Buy 3 new tires instead of 6 to begin the year. Don't buy a new wrap but maybe use what you have on now but saving whatever it takes to be safe is an investment in you and your family. Most of us have to get up on Monday morning after a hard weekend of racing to go to work. These things might just be the items that allowed you to do that, versus laying in a hospital bed recovering. In the mean time you got behind on your house payments, car payments, truck payments which we all have and personally I can't afford to miss work.

We as the series have no interest in making you do things, but in the interest of safety don't you agree its way past time for some of these? We have to spend money to do this as well. Not cheap on us either, but your life is worth the investment to us.

Family. If you can't do it for yourself, then do it for them.

Hopefully this helps a little anyway.

Stan Lester

FASTRAK SE
FASTRAK MOV
ULTIMATE SE
ULTIMATE Bob

[onlyfacts]

Someone mentioned crates so I'll respond. Wheel Covers: We went to plastic a couple years ago now. Yes in more than one instance we witnessed wheel covers come off and go all the way down the front straight at Bulls Gap then proceeded to go another 200 yards out in the pasture outside of turn 1. Then at Princeton one came off in turn 1 and right down through the middle of the pits onto the track in turn 4. Keeping in mind thats where everyone parks too. We let everyone know then that for the upcoming season no more metal wheel covers would be allowed. The teams did a fantastic job with it, sport new wheel covers of every color you could imagine. Made the cars look a lot better and our fans, crews, drivers and Officials a lot safer. Fire Suppression Systems. We announced at Princeton ironically, and this was in June of this year that beginning in 2017 systems would be required. To start saving $100 a month to make sure they could be ready for 2017. This came from the incident of a driver in Ohio getting burned to death. Our rules is a little different as the thermostat controlled piece will not be mandatory and the pull tab type will be legal with us. Our Officials will go through a rigorous training process this winter to be able to take care of you in the instance of a fire. We will also have "fire blankets" for lack of a better term, so that when the Official comes in the car to get you out, the blanket goes over you first to protect you and the Official as well then when the system is set off, they pull back the blanket along with the driver. Gloves and fireproof shoes should have always been the case. We all as sanctioning bodies got complacent and it was way past time to make this move. I understand having the "feel" of the car, but when you get used to gloves it will be the same way. You can't get the feel without them. A fuel cell with the line at the bottom well its just never good. Perfect place to be broken off and fuel is coming out. No fire agent will put out a fire when the fuel continues to flow. I am not personally completely settled on this issue and our working will be out soon on this. I know I put myself out to a lot of criticism by posting this but you do have the right to know why this is being done and an explanation. Hopefully this helps you understand a little better as to the why. If you have never been on fire its hard to explain to you but I have and this year I have seen people die. Seen others hurt. Once it happens, well then its too late. We are trying to prevent it from happening again is all we are trying to accomplish. Look at it this way if you can. Buy 3 new tires instead of 6 to begin the year. Don't buy a new wrap but maybe use what you have on now but saving whatever it takes to be safe is an investment in you and your family. Most of us have to get up on Monday morning after a hard weekend of racing to go to work. These things might just be the items that allowed you to do that, versus laying in a hospital bed recovering. In the mean time you got behind on your house payments, car payments, truck payments which we all have and personally I can't afford to miss work. We as the series have no interest in making you do things, but in the interest of safety don't you agree its way past time for some of these? We have to spend money to do this as well. Not cheap on us either, but your life is worth the investment to us. Family. If you can't do it for yourself, then do it for them. Hopefully this helps a little anyway. Stan Lester FASTRAK SE FASTRAK MOV ULTIMATE SE ULTIMATE Bob did you read the rules? They say no plastic wheel cover must be alum bolted on with 3- 5/16" bolts.

[Barbecueboy]

This will keep your local racers from being able to run with the big boys when they come to town.

A lot of the brainiacs ( some in this very thread even) said the same thing about the late season tire rule change too.

[cumminsman08]

the main one i don't understand is the wheel cover hex bolt rule. Are flying wheel covers a low lying problem ive been oblivious too?

I was also oblivious until this year we were racing at the baltes classic at eldora and I watched a metal wheel cover come off in turn 3 shoot up as high as the lights and sail to a landing in the grassy area in front of the bleachers in a matter of seconds..

We all know how sharp they can get, I'm just thankful I didn't witness the wheel cover go into the stands and hit someone.. so the wheel cover safety thing did come across my mind after that incident..

[MBR Performance]

So now you're expecting a guy who just 6 months ago spent about $1800 on a new bladder cell to go and buy another one even more expensive and have no way to recoup any of that money because he has no one to sell the first one to. And to the previous a55wipe I voted for Trump

[cutman]

A lot of the brainiacs ( some in this very thread even) said the same thing about the late season tire rule change too.

I wish doing away with grooving and siping would have been included in the rule changes

[Ryan21mid]

did you read the rules? They say no plastic wheel cover must be alum bolted on with 3- 5/16" bolts.

the bulletin states : • Only aluminum wheels will be permitted.
• Only approved wheel discs will be permitted. Approved wheel discs are wheel discs that are fastened to the wheel using a minimum of three (3), 5/16 inch diameter magnetic steel hex head bolts. The use of wheel discs with any other type of fastener will not be permitted.
• Only aluminum wheel spacers will be permitted.

Says nothing about no plastic wheels covers.

[flagone]

MBR your fuel cell has a soft bladder?

[MBR Performance]

Not my cell but a customer's cell. But yes it is a bladder cell

[flagone]

Then it should be compliant.

[FASTRAKPR]

I'll have to reply here as the page it was asked on y post but the page refused to pull up. Maybe I'm just tired for being up all night watching the election. LOL

Plastic wheel covers. Please keep in mind my post started off w addressing crates. I disagree with metal wheel covers period, but there are people in the industry that know a lot more than I. Mine is only a opinion of one and this was made by a panel of many. I am working with one plastic company now in designing a plastic wheel cover that is vented to suck it to the ground if it comes off. Its a never ending project.

Tires, I agree tires don't need to be grooved and siped. We took that stance when we started in 2004. In FASTRAK we are limited to 2 compounds so per the drivers vote we did allow them to groove and sipe our hard compound so they could go to it quicker to keep from wearing their softer compound out. We are fortunate we have a really tough great softer compound that does a good job in most places even on hard black tracks. The FT200 crate spec.

Lajoie and others make a bolt on kit for $350 to make a seat a full containment seat. Simpson has just released a strap that goes on the left side which we will take a look at too. Just haven't seen it yet.

I know spending money where you may not see the need today is tough, but keep in mind when you need it, well its too late then. Times are still tough right now but I believe its going to get better after last night. Hopefully we will all have a little more cash. I know you are smart enough to know that in the end, this is to benefit you and the ones that depend on you each and everyday. Yes it looks a little tough today, but really all of us should have been doing this all along and no one should ever had to make us do it.

Please note, I am not speaking as a committee member which I am not. I have never been to one of these meetings. However one of our series ULTIMATE is represented on the committee so I have been kept in the loop.. I am speaking for crates although most of it applies to both. We probably won't get this right, right out of the box, but it will be a continuing job as we work to reduce cost of mandated products as well as improve them for you.

Members of ULTIMATE and FASTRAK do get discounts for the fire systems and we are going to announce a discount on Simpson products next week. Its the only way I know to help you do this and make the transition a little easier on you.

IM GOING HOME LOL.

[Barbecueboy]

I wish doing away with grooving and siping would have been included in the rule changes

I'm not so sure it wasn't tried a time or two......recall it working out pretty well.

[calverton]

Charlie floyd and shane unger need i say more

[billetbirdcage]

Kelly and Stan, I feel for you having to explain or defend some of this all by yourself so don't take my comments as going after you in any way.

1. First and foremost in my opinion mandatory safety rules should only be for protecting people that could be affected that weren't the cause of said problem like pit crew members, fans, and etc.

A. Take for example eye protection while driving, not having any could cause the driver to get something in his eye and crash into another competitor or go into the stands. Things like this I don't think anyone can disagree with needs to me mandatory.

B. However you could argue about a fire suit (Hang on and least listen to this and keep an open mind). Not having a fire suit, shouldn't result in anything happening during a race that would cause the driver to put other people at harm by not wearing one, only himself. Now doing so would be extremely stupid on any drivers part, but has no effect (for the most part) on any one else there at the races and the risk is all on said driver.

C. So in my opinion mandatory stuff should be about everyone else's safety, but the things that only effect the one person/driver should be their choice and therefore not mandatory. Obviously you have to balance this with insurance requirements for the tracks, but we all know this can be a dangerous sport.

D. Show me data, that does definitively shows that a full containment seat lessens the change of injury? And if it does show me where it doesn’t increase the chance of concussions? #Note: I do believe they are way way better, but I only staying in a holiday inn so what do I know as I have no data to support it one way or the other. Shouldn’t that decision be left to the person in the car as to what is best for him?

I can see the wheel covers as that will effect people other then the driver, but many of these other things you have to stretch pretty far in circumstance before you are risking others safety. Now a guy could argue the fuel cell to some degree because in a wreck the other cars involved could burn do to someone’s unsafe fuel cell. However I can't recall ever when someone else was burned do to a fire that came from someone fuel cell other then their own.

I think what we need more then mandatory rules is more education, knowing what can happen and being on top of these things will allow people to make the decision for themselves whether or not they feel the risk is worth having or not having some of these devises.

It's still a lack of tech that is the biggest problem; they can't enforce the basic body rules they have now. Do you really think much of this stuff gets checked after the first or second race of the year? I'm more worried about the crappy fuel fitting and plumbing job on some cars then the fuel cell itself. I've seen more fuel spelt from broken off fittings and lines then actual rupturing of the cell itself. I'd start with no aluminum fittings on the fuel system as that is what typically gets ripped off during a crash and spills more fuel then the cells themselves.

Now don’t take this as I’m saying just let us do what we want as far as safety rules go, as we all know we need the encouragement to do the right thing for ourselves. But at some point you have to let people decide for themselves what the proper equipment is as long as it isn’t affecting anyone else but them. If you have the money, it’s a no brainer but I’m so tired of anyone telling me what I have to have to protect myself, don’t treat me like a 10 year old the government does that enough.

I can’t be clear on this enough: I purposely took the devils advocate and unpopular side just to show the other side of things.

[calverton]

rules are not set until atleast December 10th

[Drop Shock]

If Lucas Oil were wanting to help the drivers they would also adopt the Eldora tire rule, but that would be too simple.

[NormP]

So the series set the high prices for these items and are therefore to blame for the rising costs of late model racing.

Huh...you learn something new every day.

[flagone]

billet one HUGE way the use or the lack of use of PPE affects everyone is simple.

One wrongful death or disability suit would have devastating and far reaching effects for all of dirt racing. Insurance companies hold a lot of cards. They have a lot of requirements now. It is expensive now. A suit that gets a huge judgement simply because we don't have the khonas to say "this is what the requirements are and if you won't take them on your own then we will force you to do so". It is sad but all of this stuff has been around for long enough that it should be as commonplace as seat belts. And to your point we require a competitor to wear belts and all other currently required PPE because primarily of the above. I wish I could say what we have done was proactive but we all know we have had enough examples just in the last 12 months for me to say we HAVE to take these steps. We have to protect you from you.

[calverton]

If Lucas Oil were wanting to help the drivers they would also adopt the Eldora tire rule, but that would be too simple.totally agree

[Barbecueboy]

I don't think the minds involved are just dreaming this stuff up to add cost.......even though the flesh brokering insurance companies are the root cause behind most of the mandates ,the officials writing the safety rules have a genuine concern for the drivers and spectators well being.

The sport continues to evolve and the safety aspect of it should be no different......non issue if you wanna race in the big leagues IMO.

[Barbecueboy]

If Lucas Oil were wanting to help the drivers they would also adopt the Eldora tire rule, but that would be too simple.

I would be surprised if that or something similar didn't end up happening....

[grt74]

its the cars and not the seats, look at the roll cages, almost all dirt late model roll cages are too close to the driver along with too short(for a roll over, your a human yard dart in most cars)hope they let you run mirrors, its going to be hard to see in this style of seat
i can't find a 39.2 seat but I'm guessing they want the cup seat 39.1

[calverton]

take a look at other types of racing and you might get a n idea what grt74 is saying and just not late models even the pro 4s 4ycl are need help

[fastford]

very good assessment billetbirdcage, i hate it for the ones that lost there lives this year , but this is a dangerous sport that they choose to participate in. It dont matter how many rules you apply, some one is going to get hurt, one thing that i dont understand is if these sanctioning bodies are this worried about drivers safety, why havent they mandated the tracks to have some type of soft wall system ? they want us to spend our money, but as long as these wall cushions have been out now, ive seen nothing...JMO...

[grt74]

a containment seat should be sufficient,no need for the cup style, we are no where near the speeds,i do agree with all of the other mandates

[Josh Bayko]

very good assessment billetbirdcage, i hate it for the ones that lost there lives this year , but this is a dangerous sport that they choose to participate in. It dont matter how many rules you apply, some one is going to get hurt, one thing that i dont understand is if these sanctioning bodies are this worried about drivers safety, why havent they mandated the tracks to have some type of soft wall system ? they want us to spend our money, but as long as these wall cushions have been out now, ive seen nothing...JMO...

Insurance dictates a lot of this. Give it time, they'll probably mandate some sort of soft wall setup too, perhaps those giant styrofoam blocks that were pretty popular on the asphalt tracks in the early 90s.

[calverton]

move the seat over away from the door

[Josh Bayko]

move the seat over away from the door

This isn't a bad idea, actually, but it would require pretty significant modifications to the chassis.

[calverton]

maybe maybe not but it would be helpful also a window net and maybe even a solid steering wheel , you break your hand the solid wheel looks pretty good after that

[GRT62]

Since the containment seat has become a lot more widely used in the sport, the amount of concussions have sky rocketed. What the are trying to prevent by mandating the use of a $2k+ Seat could be solved with a $20 window net. They cars are already tough to see out of when you have the seat mounted down in the car with the proper head clearence. I don't see where mandating a certain seat is helping anyone but the manufactures of said seat.

[fastford]

This isn't a bad idea, actually, but it would require pretty significant modifications to the chassis.

leave the driver where there at and move the door bars and the left side of the hoop out 3 or 4 inches , probably wouldnt change much on set up.

[Josh Bayko]

leave the driver where there at and move the door bars and the left side of the hoop out 3 or 4 inches , probably wouldnt change much on set up.

I agree it wouldn't change setup all that much, it still would require pretty significant updates to basically every late model chassis in the country. It's a really solid idea, but not really feasible to implement all at once. Now, if all new chassis were required to be built that way, in a decade or so just about all of the "old" style cars would be filtered out.

[Ryan21mid]

On his most recent DoD story, JD said him and Barry are developing a new car and are going to move the cage around a little to make the greenhouse a little bigger and make it easier to get out of if its upside down so things are already in the works there.

[vande077]

Personally, I see no issue with safety rules. If the Series didn't require safety belts and helmets, there'd be an idiot driving without them.

As far as the seats go, MOST forms of racing have a long ways to go on seats (or requirements for them). At the Late Model Nationals in September at Knoxville, I saw numerous cars with $40-100 seats (that IMO shouldn't even be allowed to be sold on the market).

Why, because they're the cheapest. Sometimes you have to save drivers (and owners) from themselves. They'll spend $200,000 to chase a tour (minimum) but won't spend $500 on a seat? Willing to spend $40,000+ on an engine, but not willing to spend $1000 for a fire bottle system? Willing to spend $800 (per event) on tires but not willing to spend $1000 on a fuel cell?

The argument that it will put teams out of business is laughable. All these rules put together don't scratch the surface of what teams are spending on replacing parts that aren't worn out yet.

[fastford]

Personally, I see no issue with safety rules. If the Series didn't require safety belts and helmets, there'd be an idiot driving without them.

As far as the seats go, MOST forms of racing have a long ways to go on seats (or requirements for them). At the Late Model Nationals in September at Knoxville, I saw numerous cars with $40-100 seats (that IMO shouldn't even be allowed to be sold on the market).

Why, because they're the cheapest. Sometimes you have to save drivers (and owners) from themselves. They'll spend $200,000 to chase a tour (minimum) but won't spend $500 on a seat? Willing to spend $40,000+ on an engine, but not willing to spend $1000 for a fire bottle system? Willing to spend $800 (per event) on tires but not willing to spend $1000 on a fuel cell?

The argument that it will put teams out of business is laughable. All these rules put together don't scratch the surface of what teams are spending on replacing parts that aren't worn out yet.

not every one racing a late model is spending or has that kind of money, im all for safty, but a lot of this stuff is way over priced. How much do you think the actual materials cost to build that $500 PLUS SEAT? AS FAR AS FIRE GOES, I THINK MORE RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD BE PUT ON THE TRACKS TO HAVE BETTER EQUIPPED SAFETY CREWS. sorry, left the caps lock button on.....

[W2Racing09]

The problem is they are not $500 seats. I overlooked the SFI part (and its significance) at first. Those are $2k+ seats at least. I'm not saying the National guys cant afford them, but this will have disastrous consequences when the tours come to town and expect to draw local cars.

[dangerdann]

Yea all the touring guys lucas and woo it shouldnt rele affect them. But it sucks for budget local guys and hopefully im wrong but it looks like all ump lates will have these rules. http://www.dirtcarump.com/2016/11/09/dirtcar-racing-and-world-of-outlaws-adopt-unified-dirt-late-model-council-specs/

[Ryan21mid]

Yea all the touring guys lucas and woo it shouldnt rele affect them. But it sucks for budget local guys and hopefully im wrong but it looks like all ump lates will have these rules. http://www.dirtcarump.com/2016/11/09/dirtcar-racing-and-world-of-outlaws-adopt-unified-dirt-late-model-council-specs/

Yes, this rule will be in affect for UMP Late Models as well as UMP Crates. I'd have to assume the SFI 39.2 Specification will be removed and simply a containment seat will be required. There's no way weekly guys can afford NASCAR seats so I'd expect that to be revised.

[vande077]

The problem is they are not $500 seats. I overlooked the SFI part (and its significance) at first. Those are $2k+ seats at least. I'm not saying the National guys cant afford them, but this will have disastrous consequences when the tours come to town and expect to draw local cars.

There is more than 1 company out there to buy seats from. My brother had one that met these rules he paid $500 for and numerous IMCA guys have them (and they race for PEANUTS compared to any SLM).

[Clayton_Wetter]

move the seat over away from the door

How about moving the door away from the seat instead? hahahahahahahaaa

[Krooser]

The sanctioning bodies should negotiate a group buy/advertising deal with the seat and fire bottle outfits to give the racers a price break... I did it in 1987 with my new street stock division. My rules allowed a guy to use his stock 3 point factory belts to start the season then buy a new set of 5 point belts for $79 and get a $30 rebate via mail.

Plus they could offer the locals a one race grace period on the new seats, cells, etc. That would allow schmoes like me to race at home with the big boys.

I don't really agree with the mandatory head/neck restraint. I, like some others here, have reservations that they may actually do more harm than good on short tracks. Heck I still hate the thought of full face helmets.

And tell me why mirrors aren't allowed... if someone is 'mirror driving' the flagman has a black flag for that. Seems like the pavement guys don't have problems with them. And I think we'd have a lot fewer yellows...

[Brian Gray]

Education, Education, Education would make leaps and bounds improvement in the safety of the sport. Here's the problem SFI certs will hurt this sport. There is great information and guidance in the SFI research but making companies pay for those certs will drive up costs. the fuel cell rule is not reasonable to me, and the 39.2 seat rule is way overboard and to be honest very unfair considering the options we have. The big problem here is there are companies selling seats that they call "containment " that are not. Hope this gets cleared up.

The wheel cover should probably just be banned. After the conversations with Lucas oil administration and the people at a few seat manufacturers yesterday I am very optimistic that these rules will be cleared up by Pri.

Otherwise I just call on everyone to stick together and just say "no" and race elsewhere. I'm a huge advocate for safety but I believe there are "Equally safe" ways to service our concerns other than selling out to the "safety mafia"

[MBR Performance]

Another part of it is they are mandating this stuff which adds 2-4 thousand dollars to the price to race and yet they are still paying the same purses as they did 20 years ago. I wouldn't doubt that there are some companies just licking their chops knowing that it's now mandatory so we'll just up the price. If you think that doesn't happen then you're a fool.

[RCJ]

A 10 lbs fire bottle is not small, where are they typically mounted?

[calverton]

How about moving the door away from the seat instead? hahahahahahahaaahow wide do you want the car you dummy

[manwplan]

Nope you guys are all wrong. MR GEARHEAD will tell you how stupid you are and anyone that doesn't want to run a SFI seat is skimping on safety and is stupid.

[cutman]

Curious if anyone knows if the seat that Brian Ruhlman has started using would be an approved seat.

[zeroracing]

Cutman, judging by how thin the head padding looks I would be surprised if it would pass, the SFI approved seats have a very wide pad on them. Also it takes a while to get through the SFI certification so they may be going through the process.

Vande077, can you please point us to the $ 500 SFI 39.2 seat? The lowest price one I have seen is ISP at $3,400-$3,800. I would gladly buy one for my next race car instead of another high priced one.

I like many of the other late model guys have full containment seats, I used a butler built, custom built for me, very robust, very well made, and a great seat. Cost was not cheap, $ 1,600 or so, but well worth it. I cannot see the need to get rid of this seat and replace it with a different one. My current seat provides a very high level of structure and safety for our needs.

[BTExpress]

"Curious if anyone knows if the seat that Brian Ruhlman has started using would be an approved seat"

In reading the article on that seat, it looks like it was designed for larger drivers and apparently bolts on to make a regular seat a containment seat.

[Senroc-Systems]

"Curious if anyone knows if the seat that Brian Ruhlman has started using would be an approved seat"

In reading the article on that seat, it looks like it was designed for larger drivers and apparently bolts on to make a regular seat a containment seat.

Ruhlman's seat has hinged left side containment pieces ( head and shoulder) to allow him to get in and out. He is in excess of 300 lbs, as far as being approved I don't know. I do know that the SFI particular # is not any specific box available seats, they're all a one off custom build, no matter who the manufacturer is. IE: LaJoie, Butlerbilt, Kirkey, etc., etc.

Sam from UMP has fielded over 200 phone calls and is, as we speak, trying to get a specific package in place,with a specific dollar amount, to complete a necessary approved upgrade. I'm also hearing that guys are being asked to postpone buying anything until announcements are made at PRI.

[RCJ]

Be nice if they could spread these purchases out over a longer time.

[powerslide]

Education, Education, Education would make leaps and bounds improvement in the safety of the sport. Here's the problem SFI certs will hurt this sport. There is great information and guidance in the SFI research but making companies pay for those certs will drive up costs. the fuel cell rule is not reasonable to me, and the 39.2 seat rule is way overboard and to be honest very unfair considering the options we have. The big problem here is there are companies selling seats that they call "containment " that are not. Hope this gets cleared up.

The wheel cover should probably just be banned. After the conversations with Lucas oil administration and the people at a few seat manufacturers yesterday I am very optimistic that these rules will be cleared up by Pri.

Otherwise I just call on everyone to stick together and just say "no" and race elsewhere. I'm a huge advocate for safety but I believe there are "Equally safe" ways to service our concerns other than selling out to the "safety mafia"

I was thinking the same thing on the wheel covers. Just do away with them. A cost we could do without, not a huge cost but a cost none the less. Tire changes in the pits would be quicker so less laps needed to change it under yellow.

Also on the same page on the seats/fuel cells. Its going to be like NHRA and you have a select few who can build it and its going to cost an arm and a leg.

[billetbirdcage]

I was thinking the same thing on the wheel covers. Just do away with them. A cost we could do without, not a huge cost but a cost none the less. Tire changes in the pits would be quicker so less laps needed to change it under yellow.



If you are a series regular, you will get an extra 2 laps from normal to change a tire now do to the bolts but not a series regular your screwed? Also sounds to me like anyone selling/making plastic type covers got screwed as how are those more dangerous then aluminum ones, lol?

[Krooser]

http://www.onedirt.com/news/adjustable-containment-seat-to-hit-the-market/

[vande077]

Cutman, judging by how thin the head padding looks I would be surprised if it would pass, the SFI approved seats have a very wide pad on them. Also it takes a while to get through the SFI certification so they may be going through the process.

Vande077, can you please point us to the $ 500 SFI 39.2 seat? The lowest price one I have seen is ISP at $3,400-$3,800. I would gladly buy one for my next race car instead of another high priced one.

I like many of the other late model guys have full containment seats, I used a butler built, custom built for me, very robust, very well made, and a great seat. Cost was not cheap, $ 1,600 or so, but well worth it. I cannot see the need to get rid of this seat and replace it with a different one. My current seat provides a very high level of structure and safety for our needs.

I thought it was a Kirkey but he sold it already when he quit racing to someone else.

But here's a link to Kirkey's website for one that costs under $1200 new (granted it's the sprint car model and not late model, but it tells me they are out there for much less than $3400)

https://www.circletracksupply.com/kirkey-racing-79-series-aluminum-sfi-39.2-certified-sprint-car-seat.html?cat=

[Ryan21mid]

If you are a series regular, you will get an extra 2 laps from normal to change a tire now do to the bolts but not a series regular your screwed? Also sounds to me like anyone selling/making plastic type covers got screwed as how are those more dangerous then aluminum ones, lol?

Put bolts in the plastic covers and they will be legal..

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Granted it needs some tweaks, but all much needed stuff. Wheel covers are flying metal frisbees/guillotines. Obviously not require the NASCAR seat. Fuel cell, definitely, and specify no cheap fittings. Fire suppression, shouldn't be even a remote issue after this year. Especially since some tracks still don't give a fuk about safety. Gloves, suck it up buttercup. Some top drivers didn't wear gloves either.

Props to Kelly and Stan for speaking, well said.

[billetbirdcage]

Put bolts in the plastic covers and they will be legal..

My bad somehow I read "aluminum" covers only, but it doesn't say that after relooking

[big88fan]

There is a big difference in seats that meet the sfi spec and one that is certified with the sticker. I have kirkey full containment seats, roughly 1000 bucks and they are not sfi certified.

[zeroracing]

Vande077, wow, I did not figure they had a certified one for near that price. That said I am one of the "any brand but kirkey guys" after seeing the cheaper ones fold up easily about a decade ago. A lot has changed and they seem to build a good seat, but just have a "stigma" around our shop.


All of that said, we will just avoid series that require it this season for the most part. I have a new custom butler built that is a great seat, just spent $ 1600 on and is very safe, no sticker though. Luckily our local series is not mandating it. I was also told by some that the series are discussing the rule and may go to a standard full containment rule.

[Krooser]

New SFI firesuits coming for 2018....

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I thought it was a Kirkey but he sold it already when he quit racing to someone else.

But here's a link to Kirkey's website for one that costs under $1200 new (granted it's the sprint car model and not late model, but it tells me they are out there for much less than $3400)

https://www.circletracksupply.com/kirkey-racing-79-series-aluminum-sfi-39.2-certified-sprint-car-seat.html?cat=
They claim it is the first aluminum seat to meet the spec. Probably got ahead of the game and maybe even attempted to influence the rule adoption. I think it means they can be reasonable price, but not really available yet.

[cutman]

New SFI firesuits coming for 2018....

Let me hear you cluck 😂

[chupp n bloomer fan]

New SFI firesuits coming for 2018....I can hear that Charlie Daniels song now:). Good movie. Him and Lonnie made some uh magic off set too;).

[Stede Bonnet]

Seriously?????? Why won't you have "everyone" of these safety rules? ... no containment seats, etc. It makes no sense not to have these items.

There is some evidence that suggest some FC seats may be causing concussions, that's why. I prefer NOT to have early onset dementia from hitting holes in the track and have to retire in my 40's because somebody knee-jerk reacted and made me run the seat he liked without doing his due diligence or even consulting me, since I'm paying... I'm a bigger guy so getting in and out is more difficult anyway. So now they have us good and trapped in the car, but still refuse to address the #800 gorilla in the room. Cars flip and turn over way too much and exiting the car is getting more and more difficult under optimal conditions. It wasn't like this before 1998.


Charlie floyd and shane unger need i say more

Shane Unger died from internal injuries, not a broken neck, not head trauma. So no full containment 39.2 bladder anything would NOT have done anything for him...

[grt74]

There is some evidence that suggest some FC seats may be causing concussions, that's why. I prefer NOT to have early onset dementia from hitting holes in the track and have to retire in my 40's because somebody knee-jerk reacted and made me run the seat he liked without doing his due diligence or even consulting me, since I'm paying... I'm a bigger guy so getting in and out is more difficult anyway. So now they have us good and trapped in the car, but still refuse to address the #800 gorilla in the room. Cars flip and turn over way too much and exiting the car is getting more and more difficult under optimal conditions. It wasn't like this before 1998.



Shane Unger died from internal injuries, not a broken neck, not head trauma. So no full containment 39.2 bladder anything would NOT have done anything for him...

a containment seat would have helped i would think(again I'm not claiming to be an expert), the shoulders would have caught him, its going to take building a car with a bigger (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit area, along with a raised roof, but this will take time, the standard containment seat will work but along with all safety measures, you need to know how they work(you need the helmet really close to the head area of the seats it may take mods to the seat) I've have been talking with the powers to be and they are seriously considering having a measurement from the floor to the bottom of the halo and a 3 inch to the helmet rule, this will require fab work on all your older cars,I really honestly believe 99.9% of the dirt late models the helmet is to close to the roll cage or the roof(in a roll over there head is hitting the ground, hell in topless races I've seen helmets sticking above the halo,frigin nuts)

[Brian Gray]

At the rate we're going the cars will be completely revamped by next season, I foresee perimeter chassis with pass door bars ect!,

[chupp n bloomer fan]

a containment seat would have helped i would think(again I'm not claiming to be an expert), the shoulders would have caught him, its going to take building a car with a bigger (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit area, along with a raised roof, but this will take time, the standard containment seat will work but along with all safety measures, you need to know how they work(you need the helmet really close to the head area of the seats it may take mods to the seat) I've have been talking with the powers to be and they are seriously considering having a measurement from the floor to the bottom of the halo and a 3 inch to the helmet rule, this will require fab work on all your older cars,I really honestly believe 99.9% of the dirt late models the helmet is to close to the roll cage or the roof(in a roll over there head is hitting the ground, hell in topless races I've seen helmets sticking above the halo,frigin nuts)Precisely. The clearance between your noggin and the halo is not enough, not the seat.

[Stede Bonnet]

With All the safety devices in the world installed injury and death are always going to be possible. We don't see them nearly as much in DLM as in other forms of racing, but that spectre will always loom and we are all in the process of dying. In the words of Jim Morrison, "No one here gets out alive".

Things I believe that would help:
1) A higher halo height/roof line.
2) lower decking and door height and widen the drivers area.
3) Larger green house.
4) Nose height maximum from ground rule, so the cars can't roll over so easy.
5) No wheel covers

Phase in Rules: (2 years)
6) #25 weight break for 39.2 fuel cell
7) #25 weight break for 39.2 FC seat
8) #50 weight break for Fire suppression system.
9) Enforce rules on fuel lines and couplings standards.
10) Enforce rules on belts that are out of date.

***During these 2 years more study could be done on effects of FC seats/concussions and you could have a mandatory safety seminar at beginning of season with safety people to show videos and answer questions. Those that don't attend can't run the series.***

[fastford]

so your basically saying , in 2 years, if you dont agree with or cant afford these changes, then you get a 100 lb weight penalty?

[Stede Bonnet]

so your basically saying , in 2 years, if you dont agree with or cant afford these changes, then you get a 100 lb weight penalty?

Well my plan would give you 2 years and the option to comply fully. The way it actually is you gotta have all of it by February/March.

[powerslide]

If you are a series regular, you will get an extra 2 laps from normal to change a tire now do to the bolts but not a series regular your screwed? Also sounds to me like anyone selling/making plastic type covers got screwed as how are those more dangerous then aluminum ones, lol?

Gotta let them promoters sell some hotdogs....

[dirtracer74]

5) No wheel covers


I am guessing you have never packed a wheel full of mud/ clay?

[Highside Hustler25]

I am guessing you have never packed a wheel full of mud/ clay?

Agree. Better stay off that cushion. They are a must.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Agree. Better stay off that cushion. They are a must.

Depends on where you race. Haven't had a hard cover on our car's RR all season.

[FlatTire]

Regardless of the intricacies of these rules, I thank those involved for making a unified effort in addressing. At least they are doing something.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Regardless of the intricacies of these rules, I thank those involved for making a unified effort in addressing. At least they are doing something.

Sometimes, nothing is needed.

[Ryan21mid]

Sometimes, nothing is needed.

In this case, most everything mandated was needed. JMO. These rules aren't going to cost the majority of DLM racers much money outside of the suppression system which they've been preaching was coming for months.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

In this case, most everything mandated was needed. JMO. These rules aren't going to cost the majority of DLM racers much money outside of the suppression system which they've been preaching was coming for months.

How do we determine what is needed? What changed from 2014?

[fastford]

In this case, most everything mandated was needed. JMO. These rules aren't going to cost the majority of DLM racers much money outside of the suppression system which they've been preaching was coming for months.

here is my opinion , the majority of DLM racers as a whole are barely able to afford to race now, the only ones these rules want affect funds wise , is the few elite touring guys.

[calverton]

Why not have them grand fathered or or on time table its not just the racers do the suppliers have what they need to get the job done also

[Ryan21mid]

I pinch every penny I can to make it to the racetrack every week so I know. I'd be willing to say 90% of the LM guys at our local track are already compliant with the seat rule, hans, and fuel cells. That leaves the suppression system to purchase over the offseason. If guys can't afford an $800 fire system, and possibly a $500 seat or $500 HANS, then DLM racing is not what they need to be doing. If it comes down to $800-$2000 worth of protection, human life is worth much more than that but that's JMO.

[Stede Bonnet]

In this case, most everything mandated was needed. JMO. These rules aren't going to cost the majority of DLM racers much money outside of the suppression system which they've been preaching was coming for months.

I read the article, and every racer that was injured already had the gear they rushed to legislate. They aren't using logic, they're using emotion and that never goes well, enacting laws rules just to say you did something is never a good idea. The only racer that was hurt or killed that they mentioned who didn't already have an FC seat was Unger and his injuries weren't related to not having an FC or not having a HANS. The two burn victims both had FC seats and couldn't get out in a timely fashion or at all. The only thing they mandated that makes any sense is the fire suppression system, the rest is legislative over reach and is too much like big government.

Why is is yours or anybody else's business to tell me what you think I should have to use?

[Ryan21mid]

Well when people continue to get hurt/killed and insurance companies start charging more and/or shutting tracks down then i suppose it becomes their business. When you're competing under a certain track/sanction's rules package then that's their right to tell you what you need to have in order to compete. I get where you're coming from but these safety rules in this day in age just seem like a no brainer to me.

[Escobar]

In this case, most everything mandated was needed. JMO. These rules aren't going to cost the majority of DLM racers much money outside of the suppression system which they've been preaching was coming for months.

How much do you know about the seats? That alone could be enough to make a guy run another class.

[flagone]

INCORRECT. Not emotion at all. These changes have been discussed and researched for well over a year. Ask any chassis builder or race team that was visited by Rick Schwallie last year. The incidents of this year only reinforced the need for these changes.

It is AMAZING to me that people are willing to argue that these things aren't needed. There is a reason that all the safety equipment is mandated at the highest levels of auto racing. We have got to get out of the mentality that additional safety requirements are a bad thing.

And those of you that think it won't affect your local track... wait until they get insurance evaluations. This is not a knee reaction at all.

[onlyfacts]

Safety rules are needed but what isn't needed is these sanctioning bodies and groups dictating everything. This sport grew because it gives owners, drivers and teams a sport that wasn't dictated by an organization like NASCAR or the many short track pavement sanctioning groups that are no longer around. Constantly changing adding dictating rules will only lead to smaller car counts, NASCAR type equality and less actual racing. Safety is one thing but this sport grew because of few regulations. We don't need an Obama liberal bigger government (Lucas) type of governing in dirt late model racing. We need a conservative type of governing of the rules so we don't end up with a watered down product of what we have.

[Josh Bayko]

People don't realize how much influence insurance companies have over safety rules.

[onlyfacts]

People don't realize how much influence insurance companies have over safety rules.Very little

[flagone]

How long have fire suppression systems been around?

How long have head and neck restraints been around?

How long have containment seats been around?

How long have GLOVES been around?

Self governing was NOT working. Otherwise everyone would already have these items.

Anybody remember when Mike Swims came up with standardized body rules? Every track and series in the country ended up with those rules.

And at the end of the day as was eluded to earlier tracks and series - and yes even ultimately racers must answer to insurance companies and lawyers.

[Ryan21mid]

How much do you know about the seats? That alone could be enough to make a guy run another class.

It has been stated multiple times by Michael Rigsby, Kelly, and Schwallie that the seat rule will be amended to allow any full containment seat! You can pick them up cheap these days and with the new quick release left headrest style seats that are coming out there is no more excuse of being trapped in the car.

[onlyfacts]

How long have fire suppression systems been around?How long have head and neck restraints been around?How long have containment seats been around?How long have GLOVES been around?Self governing was NOT working. Otherwise everyone would already have these items. Anybody remember when Mike Swims came up with standardized body rules? Every track and series in the country ended up with those rules. And at the end of the day as was eluded to earlier tracks and series - and yes even ultimately racers must answer to insurance companies and lawyers.Why don't you do a little research and ask the insurance companies what their requirements are for safety? Just ask what they require for firesuit or helmets. I think you will be surprised.

[flagone]

Uhh I do work for one of the racing insurance companies. Maybe you should do a little NEW research.

[Josh Bayko]

Very little

For somebody who claims to spout only facts, you don't know sh*t.

[onlyfacts]

Uhh I do work for one of the racing insurance companies. Maybe you should do a little NEW research.Just call the insurance companies and ask what they require for helmet, firesuit, fire system or seats. Then let me know. I have.

[RCJ]

It's not that we're against safety,He's my situation. I have a containment seat that is not SFI.i have a pull fire system,I just bought a new fuel cell 2 weeks ago.Ditch all of that and spend $3000 to up grade and my car will be 3% safer? ,10% safer?.Every thing we do is how much value for the dollars spent.You have to have that mind set to be able to race.

[dangerdann]

Exactly RCJ im in the same situation. I have a 2yr old containment seat thats not sfi, a 5lb pull fire system and just bought a new cell also thats not sfi. Now idk if i can afford to upgrade to only do a couple races.

[flagone]

Please reread regarding seat requirements. It is being amended.

The fire system is easily upgraded for a couple of hundred dollars.

Most of the fuel cell mfgs also have a kit available to upgrade as well.

And I swear I don't mean any disrespect at all. If that is the mindset that you have to race then you have the wrong mindset.

And trying to quantify how much safer your car is? Are you being serious? Would you race without a helmet? But yet we drive cars on the road every day at close to the same speeds and don't wear a helmet. Why do we need it to race? Guys you gotta stop thinking about what you can do to race and start thinking about what you can do to live. Why would you not take every possible safety advantage available to you? Think of it this way - can you afford to be out of work to be treated at the burn center? What happens to your family if you can't work or worse?

Ask the guy in this video if he thinks he needs a fire suppression system that is thermally activated.

https://www.facebook.com/mikestofflet/videos/713439152006757/?pnref=story

[westlingracing]

I own a 2 car team and If those rules are not adjusted then we are done! If my Butlerbuilt containment seat or new RCI fuel cell isn't going to be good enough I'm not going to buy new. I have a Hans Device and a high dollar suit but I know a lot do not, that's a lot of money. I'm seeing it at around $5k for some to get to the rule per car.
But the fire system is stupid, what needs scrutinized and enforced by these sanctioning bodies is making tracks have certified fire and safety crews. I'd rather pay more at the gate and be sure I have experienced people there, than a device with a nozzle aimed in 2 places to save my life!
This will eliminate weekly local latemodel racing. Maybe I will just cut off the front clip and put on a new stub and race modifieds?
Lucas and Woo would rather eliminate all weekly latemodel's and have them just come in for specials is what it looks like to me!!!!!

[cutman]

Anybody remember when Mike Swims came up with standardized body rules? Every track and series in the country ended up with those ruled.

Whoa whoa whoa. Tracks/series have body rules? That's right, they do, just never enforced.

[flagone]

And I don't disagree with you there cutman.

[cutman]

I think the safety rules are good if the seat rule gets amended. New fuel cells will be able to be converted. Fire system is common sense.

Now please address the bodies! Lol

[a25rjr]

Please reread regarding seat requirements. It is being amended.

The fire system is easily upgraded for a couple of hundred dollars.

Most of the fuel cell mfgs also have a kit available to upgrade as well.

And I swear I don't mean any disrespect at all. If that is the mindset that you have to race then you have the wrong mindset.

And trying to quantify how much safer your car is? Are you being serious? Would you race without a helmet? But yet we drive cars on the road every day at close to the same speeds and don't wear a helmet. Why do we need it to race? Guys you gotta stop thinking about what you can do to race and start thinking about what you can do to live. Why would you not take every possible safety advantage available to you? Think of it this way - can you afford to be out of work to be treated at the burn center? What happens to your family if you can't work or worse?

Ask the guy in this video if he thinks he needs a fire suppression system that is thermally activated.

https://www.facebook.com/mikestofflet/videos/713439152006757/?pnref=story

Nuff said, Kelly!

[talclipse]

If the sanctioning bodies would have phased these rules in over time it would have been much better. The incident in southern Ohio was tragic. But, and I mean absolute no disrespect to anyone when I say this, but had any one of these things been slightly different (battery being secured/ isolated, fuel cell having a check valve in the vent/ having a vent hose ran in such a way that fuel wouldnt flow back) that guy would have walked away. To that end it boils down to education and sharing knowledge. Instead of keeping a budget racer safer we are eliminating that guy from ever getting behind the wheel or worse yet he continues to race without the knowledge that what hes doing is not safe and has an incident at some track with laxed safety standards. If they want to spec out SFI ratings for their series thats fine, but SOMEONE needs to disciminate some generally accepted best practices for how to safely build certain aspects of these cars.

[fastford]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........

[fastford]

If the sanctioning bodies would have phased these rules in over time it would have been much better. The incident in southern Ohio was tragic. But, and I mean absolute no disrespect to anyone when I say this, but had any one of these things been slightly different (battery being secured/ isolated, fuel cell having a check valve in the vent/ having a vent hose ran in such a way that fuel wouldnt flow back) that guy would have walked away. To that end it boils down to education and sharing knowledge. Instead of keeping a budget racer safer we are eliminating that guy from ever getting behind the wheel or worse yet he continues to race without the knowledge that what hes doing is not safe and has an incident at some track with laxed safety standards. If they want to spec out SFI ratings for their series thats fine, but SOMEONE needs to disciminate some generally accepted best practices for how to safely build certain aspects of these cars.
great post talclipse

[cutman]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........

I agree with you. Your seat isn't going to affect others safety and I think should be left up to the driver.
I'm all for the fuel/fire safety.

[flagone]

As I said in my Dirt Late Model column this past month...

"I have talked about the fact that my real life everyday job has always skewed some of my attention to the safety aspect of the sport. But if you are a driver let me say this – I have failed you. I have not done even close to enough to protect you. I have not fought hard enough. I have not made enough people mad. I have not shown your safety the full spotlight it deserves. But it is time to get it right...

...this sport is inherently dangerous. Drivers know the risks and accept them. Some even relish those risks. But there is no reason to not do all that you can to protect yourself. So I am going to pledge to do a better job of doing my part to change the culture and help to protect our drivers. I am gonna make you mad and I am okay with that. Because it’s time to get it right."

And you choosing not to protect yourself absolutely affects others. Knocked unconscious and foot on the throttle is just one example. And it affects your loved ones. And you making a choice does not protect the sanctioning body from your loved one suing them. In fact it doesn't protect us from YOU suing us even if YOU make the choice. We live in a world where we have to put labels on hot coffee at restaurants to tell the people that just ordered it that IT IS HOT.

[cutman]

can you not be knocked unconscious in a full containment seat? Has research been done about these seats and the issues with concussions?

[Stede Bonnet]

can you not be knocked unconscious in a full containment seat? Has research been done about these seats and the issues with concussions?

I've brought that up several times and its yet to be addressed. "Full Containment" has been deemed the "end-all, be-all" of seats, despite the fact that it most likely contributed to one death and some serious burns to another. This day and age once a trend gets going it takes something horrendous to derail it. Its kinda like that group that thinks a HANS is going to protect your neck/head no matter what type accident your in.

What I fear most in order:
1) Fire.
2) Being trapped.
3) Permanent Brain damage.

I believe the FC seat is directly linked to the rise in concussion injuries, but the impression I'm getting from the powers that be is, is that its a risk acceptable to them. So this is what the "Next Level" in DLM racing is like...

[flagone]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

[fastford]

flagone, when you can assure me that if i buy all this stuff , there is no way i will get hurt, then you will have "done your job" and i will buy what ever you say , I have to agree with stede bonnet , there has not been enough research done to prove if some of this stuff cant do harm also in the right circumstance. i will say all my kids wear a head restraint of some kind , and i agree there needs to be something to keep the head and arms inside the car, i just dont think it needs to be as extreme as these rules seem to make it.

[fastford]

one other thing to consider , talking about my kids got me to thinking, is a late model drivers safety any more important than a street stock or pony car driver? i know were talking series here but, if were talking safety in general, if these rules were to get adopted by all tracks for all divisions , well thats about all she wrote folks.......

[MBR Performance]

Flagone the one thing you forgot to consider is the racers pocketbook. 75% of the local racers cannot afford these types of changes especially over the winter. I understand the effort to improve safety however your very effort is also hurting the sport. Not everyone has $40,000 cars especially on the local level. You want to make it safer then slow the cars down. Put the shock & spring back in front of the LR and eliminate the half rolled over posture of today's cars.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.
They race much heavier, faster, unyielding vehicles. But certainly they have done homework for their application.
Fire is a racers biggest danger, but we just keep making it harder to get out of the car to prevent the first basal skull fracture.

And when your head hits the track from lack of greenhouse height in a rollover, that containment seat guarantees your vertebrae get a compression fracture.

[Stede Bonnet]

I have not directly done research on the containment seat and a correlation to head injuries or concussions. However NASCAR has. And EVERY one of their divisions requires a full containment seat and a head and neck restraint. And no form of racing more closely mirrors our racing than they do. And you don't have to like them or the racing they promote but you had better bet your farm on the fact they have done due diligence on the safety items they require.

And you also better be able to substantiate claims that ANY piece of equipment contributed to a death or injury.

So to address your fears.

1. Fire Suppression system along with improved training and equipment at race tracks (and yes there are many in the industry working on that).

2. The above systems will buy you and responders time to escape, extinguish fires and/or be disentangled. We are going to address bodies in the coming sessions. Many of the clearance and space problems are body issues and not seat issues.

3. Take EVERY possible step to prevent it. A good helmet, a good containment seat, a head and neck restraint, quality and IN DATE belts, etc... Because what I DO know about as good or better than anyone on this board is the kinematics of trauma and head injuries. Read about coup / contrecoup.

There is a certain amount of common sense you must employ here. You can be struck by lightning when you walk outside in a storm. You are a lot more likely to be struck by lightning if you are holding a metal pole up in the air.

Thank you for responding directly to my questions, I appreciate that. I disagree that we have anything in common with Nascar though. I appreciate your efforts and concern for drivers safety, but I still feel apples to apples logic is not being employed and the solutions don't all fit the issues we have. We had 2 serious fires this year that I know about, both involved drivers unable to escape their cars resulting in injury and death. We had several flips & rollovers resulting in concussions and a torn artery. All these drivers had these systems in place, except fire suppression. In the fires I'm sure the suppression systems would have made a measurable difference in those out comes.

Nascar has a perimeter style frames and the drivers area is accessible from both sides of the car.
We have parallel frames with access only on drivers side primarily.

Nascar races on always smooth asphalt surfaces.
We race on an ever changing dirt surface, prone to holes and ruts that induces flips, rollovers and violent shaking of the driver.

If I had to pick a motorsport we share similarities to, aside from the obvious Big Block Mods & Sprints, it would be World Ralley cars, not Cup. Emulating Nascar in anyway I feel is a mistake, but I'm done beating this horse, I know my opinion is most likely nothing but an annoyance to those who wanted to push all this thru. Even USAC doesn't mandate FC seats in dirt sprints, you are allowed either nets or FC and is the drivers discretion.

[RCJ]

The comment from talclipse about a fuel vent that won't drain when upside down is something I never thought of.I have a check valve but I think I 'll replum my vent.2 things that I want to add,Helmets-I seen drivers get head injurys and go back with the same helmet.Helmets deteriorate inside after a hit. Physical fitness-we all should be,but it is even more important to a driver.

[mcarter815]

here is my take, if its a rule to protect others around you like the wheel covers, then im ok with it , but, im a grown man, i sign a disclosure when i enter the track, if i choose to use a seat that doesnt meet this sfi spec, then it should be my right. If i get hurt or killed that is directly related to not having this expensive specialized equipment, then its on me. In my opinion, i think this whole deal is more money related than safety related. If the sanctioning bodies are this worried about safety, require the tracks to put up some kind of safer barrier and let the sanctioning bodies dump some of there own money into it and i may change my mind........That's a selfish point of view. Your death or injury impacts more than just you. It impacts your family both emotionally and financially. It impacts the fans in the stands who have just had a fun night at the races ruined. It impacts racing as a whole because racing can only survive so many deaths before the government steps in or fans stop coming.

[Stede Bonnet]

After further review and consideration, I'm saying "No" to the SFI 39.2 seat.
Completely unwarranted specification.

Anybody know what hobby pays at Winder-Barrow?

[cutman]

After further review and consideration, I'm saying "No" to the SFI 39.2 seat.
Completely unwarranted specification.

Anybody know what hobby pays at Winder-Barrow?

I believe that having to have that spec is going to be dropped from the rules.

[cjsracing]

As some one who has suffered three serious concussions and many other minor ones in football (college and high school) I feel I can add a little something to this topic. First off let me say that concussions occur when your head hits something causing the brain to smash into the skull. In football it is from contact to the helmet via another helmet or the ground. So now think about it in a racecar, you have a helmet and the seat. A non-containment seat doesn't have the pieces for your head to contact. But a containment seat has the guards on each side of the head that are solid. So if your helmet comes into violent contact with one of the guards along side of the head, the guards aren't moving, but inertia is still moving your brain until it contact your skull. This impact is what is causing the concussion.

Now I will admit I am not a doctor (I am a CPA), but with my concussion history (from football) and various talks with doctors and trainers I feel I have a good understanding of this.

I don't use a full containment seat and have no desire to. My non containment seat has the bolt on head guards but if my head hits them hard enough they bend and give way, in other words they slow down my head movement allowing my brain to not contact my skull with the force it would have if my head would have come to a complete stop from hitting the solid head guards of a containment seat.

Just my 2 cents.

[Clayton_Wetter]

As some one who has suffered three serious concussions and many other minor ones in football (college and high school) I feel I can add a little something to this topic. First off let me say that concussions occur when your head hits something causing the brain to smash into the skull. In football it is from contact to the helmet via another helmet or the ground. So now think about it in a racecar, you have a helmet and the seat. A non-containment seat doesn't have the pieces for your head to contact. But a containment seat has the guards on each side of the head that are solid. So if your helmet comes into violent contact with one of the guards along side of the head, the guards aren't moving, but inertia is still moving your brain until it contact your skull. This impact is what is causing the concussion.

Now I will admit I am not a doctor (I am a CPA), but with my concussion history (from football) and various talks with doctors and trainers I feel I have a good understanding of this.

I don't use a full containment seat and have no desire to. My non containment seat has the bolt on head guards but if my head hits them hard enough they bend and give way, in other words they slow down my head movement allowing my brain to not contact my skull with the force it would have if my head would have come to a complete stop from hitting the solid head guards of a containment seat.

Just my 2 cents.

Short and simple thought. Maybe nerf head guards? Or are they already similar?

[Stede Bonnet]

As some one who has suffered three serious concussions and many other minor ones in football (college and high school) I feel I can add a little something to this topic. First off let me say that concussions occur when your head hits something causing the brain to smash into the skull. In football it is from contact to the helmet via another helmet or the ground. So now think about it in a racecar, you have a helmet and the seat. A non-containment seat doesn't have the pieces for your head to contact. But a containment seat has the guards on each side of the head that are solid. So if your helmet comes into violent contact with one of the guards along side of the head, the guards aren't moving, but inertia is still moving your brain until it contact your skull. This impact is what is causing the concussion.

Now I will admit I am not a doctor (I am a CPA), but with my concussion history (from football) and various talks with doctors and trainers I feel I have a good understanding of this.

I don't use a full containment seat and have no desire to. My non containment seat has the bolt on head guards but if my head hits them hard enough they bend and give way, in other words they slow down my head movement allowing my brain to not contact my skull with the force it would have if my head would have come to a complete stop from hitting the solid head guards of a containment seat.

Just my 2 cents.

You are spot on and there is some new data coming out from a study done with the Stanford College football team with data acquisition that showed a ricochet effect was a more precise recording of events. The helmet strikes something, then bounces, but the brain lags behind the movement of the skull and makes impact as the skull is traveling in the opposite direction. The old notion or theory was also that the damage occurred on the surface of the brain, but now they've been able to learn more with imaging and some autopsies that the damage occurs near the center, where a tearing effect happens to the membrane that separates the two brain hemispheres. Thanks for adding your experiences and input. There is a Ted Talk that discusses some of these new findings too, its mainly about helmet design but offers insights also into general concussion info.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_camarillo_why_helmets_don_t_prevent_concussi ons_and_what_might

[fastford]

That's a selfish point of view. Your death or injury impacts more than just you. It impacts your family both emotionally and financially. It impacts the fans in the stands who have just had a fun night at the races ruined. It impacts racing as a whole because racing can only survive so many deaths before the government steps in or fans stop coming.

call it what you want, but it is my point of view, and ill tell you the same thing i told flagone , prove to me , beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this exotic safety stuff will prevent any of the things you mentioned above , and im all in. I ride a motorcycle on the highway on a regular basis and could have the things you mention happen a lot easier than racing a car with out these expensive seats or what ever, so i guess by your point of view , i should sell my bike , so ill ask you, do you do anything that you do not have to do that could take you away from your family ? if so , then maybe you are being a little selfish your self.

[just dust]

I own a 2 car team and If those rules are not adjusted then we are done! If my Butlerbuilt containment seat or new RCI fuel cell isn't going to be good enough I'm not going to buy new. I have a Hans Device and a high dollar suit but I know a lot do not, that's a lot of money. I'm seeing it at around $5k for some to get to the rule per car.
But the fire system is stupid, what needs scrutinized and enforced by these sanctioning bodies is making tracks have certified fire and safety crews. I'd rather pay more at the gate and be sure I have experienced people there, than a device with a nozzle aimed in 2 places to save my life!
This will eliminate weekly local latemodel racing. Maybe I will just cut off the front clip and put on a new stub and race modifieds?
Lucas and Woo would rather eliminate all weekly latemodel's and have them just come in for specials is what it looks like to me!!!!!



I dont remember when , but a big lucas oil driver said that only lucas oil touring series
drivers should be able to race their series . That when they come to their track no locals
should be able to race that event . And the driver that said that was a lucas oil champion ,
now go figure . I mean I want all the safety we can get but there you have it .

[calverton]

what is afraid he might get beat and who would attend a race with only 12 cars

[MidTnDirtFan]

I have a question........ with all this talk about seats and fire why hasn't something been said or done to make the drivers escape route easier???? In other words why can't they build a much taller roof and window opening?????? I know it might alter the aerodynamics but I think that if ALL CARS have to provide a larger exit area it would even out that aspect. Most drivers look like they need a shoe horn to get into and out of the car in normal conditions.
Can someone answer that aspect????

[Clayton_Wetter]

what is afraid he might get beat and who would attend a race with only 12 cars

THERE WENT THAT NOISE AGAIN!!!!!http://clipartix.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Confused-emoticon-4-texts-on-smileys-smiley-faces-and-emoticon-clip-art.jpg

[calverton]

how many fans would show up if only 12 cars showed esp . now since JD left the series

[Clayton_Wetter]

Don't matter. It's Lucas, the lemmings flood the gates, no matter what. Who's JD?

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

don't matter. It's lucas, the lemmings flood the gates, no matter what. Who's jd?



joe.....dirt......

[calverton]

clayton doesn't know who JD time to go back to school

[calverton]

don't matter. It's lucas, the lemmings flood the gates, no matter what. Who's jd?i am sure you would ,but not me

[Stede Bonnet]

I have a question........ with all this talk about seats and fire why hasn't something been said or done to make the drivers escape route easier???? In other words why can't they build a much taller roof and window opening?????? I know it might alter the aerodynamics but I think that if ALL CARS have to provide a larger exit area it would even out that aspect. Most drivers look like they need a shoe horn to get into and out of the car in normal conditions.
Can someone answer that aspect????

It appears the approach they want to adopt isn't improving es capability. They way I understand what I've been told is they want us confined in the car and we are to wait for them to come get us out with a blanket and Jaws if needed... The world is full of good intentions and I think these changes were well intended and come from a good place. However I will say again attempting to emulate NASCAR is an apples to oranges comparison. They have mirrors and radios and can effectively navigate with limited head movement utilizing these tools. Mirrors and radios are illegal for us for one, so we'd be racing with blinders on effectively. Second our greenhouse and c@ckp!t are much smaller and confined like you mentioned. I think they know if they suddenly made everyone's cars illegal by legislating higher roof lines and so forth that the cost would hinder a lot of teams ability to update, especially since a lot of builders these days only want to sell complete cars. That and the demand would over whelm the builders between now and february even if something could be worked out. Both avenues are pricey, but going with seats over updating cars I think they feel they is doing the most good. Sadly looking at whats already happened to people who've already adopted most of this equipment, it becomes clear that some of these changes(these safety devices) may in fact cause more harm to us, than it protects us from. Bottom line is you have to have the right tool for the job and I just don't think logically they've chosen the right tools to fix a perceived problem that may not exist in our form of racing. The fire stuff I think is a good idea. I think paying closer attention to how fuel systems are setup and what parts are used is acceptable. I'm not saying all this SFI stuff they are thrusting on us are the right parts, but looking at this area and making improvements isn't a bad thing.

[racerb12]

Sometimes people forget how to ask the racer how these rules affect them.These changes I think are designed around 12 or 14 racers that probably isn't going to buy any of these stuff .But it sure is trying to make the average racer pay for safety.and I have always said stupid can't be fixed.put a 5000. Seat in with small bolts,put lead on with tape,leave fuel cap off things happen sometime u live with mistakes sometimes u don't it's a part of life in general in what ever u do.if these rules get applied they should make all classes run under the same safety plan.that way we can all stay home and watch NASCAR rather than go dirt racing

[dirt18]

Ok. Alot of new safety rules for the racer.Some good,some need tweaked. BUT... what about rules for promoters & tracks? Do they have the right size fire suppression system and the right extinguishing agent if they are letting cars run methanol (alcohol)? Has the track personnel been through proper training?I know tracks have an ambulance,not all tracks have a fire dept. at the track. Just something maybe the sanctioning bodies should consider.? Everybody needs included in Safety!

[ClampedUp]

Ok. Alot of new safety rules for the racer.Some good,some need tweaked. BUT... what about rules for promoters & tracks? Do they have the right size fire suppression system and the right extinguishing agent if they are letting cars run methanol (alcohol)? Has the track personnel been through proper training?I know tracks have an ambulance,not all tracks have a fire dept. at the track. Just something maybe the sanctioning bodies should consider.? Everybody needs included in Safety!

This is where the Series needs to have a list of minimum safety requirements the tracks need to meet.
If they can't meet the safety requirements they do not get the race.

Reading some of the responses by some on here about the cost of safety it is obvious that they could care less about their selves, family members, other competitors, and the fans.
If you can't afford safety equipment or refuse to buy whats required then do everyone a favor including yourself and find a new hobby.

[Bubstr]

I have to agree with minimum standards for tracks. I have heard one retired racer tell the fire crew not to interfere with the guys that will get him out of the crashed car the next time. He said the only reason they where at the track, was a free pit pass to see the races. I think he was right, in this particular instance. Some, very few do it right as far as training Safety crews and the equipment needed to rescue someone in a reasonable amount of time with out doing any harm.

Another thing is concrete walls jutting out where cars can get impaled on them at entrances and exits to the track.

[ClampedUp]

Look at how the New Jersey State Police govern, enforce, and inspect tracks and race vehicles.

http://www.njsp.org/news/pdf/072307_racing_regulations.pdf

[Stede Bonnet]

Reading some of the responses by some on here about the cost of safety it is obvious that they could care less about their selves, family members, other competitors, and the fans.
If you can't afford safety equipment or refuse to buy whats required then do everyone a favor including yourself and find a new hobby.

If your referring to me, I'm sorry we couldn't see eye to eye, but its NOT my or your place to tell a man what seat he's got to use, especially when there is evidence it may hurt him a dozen times over without ever having a crash. Demanding we use the same seats as NASCAR is just redonkulous. Even USAC gives you the option of FC or window nets. I guess air bags and anti-lock brakes are next...

I agree though, where are the safety mandates for the tracks???

[victorylane]

I would really like for somebody to tell me what is so wrong with slowing the cars down a little bit. We don't need 460 cubic inch 900 hp wide bore engines. We don't need all the aero body stuff going on. We don't need heavy lr parts. Soft tires aren't needed. Quit letting the big$$$ teams run the sport. I find it funny how a couple years ago a couple top drivers were whining about costs til they got bigger$$ from sponsors and everything was fine again. Laughable.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

This is where the Series needs to have a list of minimum safety requirements the tracks need to meet.
If they can't meet the safety requirements they do not get the race.

Reading some of the responses by some on here about the cost of safety it is obvious that they could care less about their selves, family members, other competitors, and the fans.
If you can't afford safety equipment or refuse to buy whats required then do everyone a favor including yourself and find a new hobby.

I think everyone in this thread cares about themselves and would like to do what they believe is right for them. If you race your car naked, you wouldn't endanger me in any way. Now nobody wants to spend money that they do not see improving their chances.

[fastford]

^^^^^^^^ exactly ......

[formercrewguy]

Dang it. Our '74 Monte Carlo seat is going to be illegal now?

[Krooser]

If you are laying on your left side how will you get out of your car with today's style interiors?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD2M4vV4NL8

[Ryan21mid]

To the few blaming Landers injury on his safety equipment, the doctors say it had no factor in it. http://www.onedirt.com/features/jared-landers-health-update/

[Stede Bonnet]

To the few blaming Landers injury on his safety equipment, the doctors say it had no factor in it. http://www.onedirt.com/features/jared-landers-health-update/

Great. My argument is with escapability and concussion related injuries, I believe Landers had a torn Carotid Artery. Heard he's planning to return at Golden Isles.



While there has been some speculation in the racing community about the potential that the injury may have been created due to restricted movement because of his restraints, Landers quickly indicated that the doctor dismissed this potential.

“Again Mark and I point blank asked the doctor if my safety devices might have caused the injury, and the doctor immediately told me the devices had no factor in my injury. He basically said that this injury was created from the sudden stop and that with or without my head restraint I would’ve suffered this injury because of how violent the wreck was.” So for those arguing his FC/HANS would've prevented this injury, the doc says "no". In that flip and impact he was getting this injury regardless, so no points for either side...

[Krooser]

Much discussed axle tube weight clamp


http://www.keysermanufacturing.com/cache/ex_q75_w430_h350_images_Anna_AxleWeightClamp.png

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I would expect more funny, easily-circumvented rules to come from this. Especially if you believe in the weight advantage and have tens of thousands to burn.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

There wont be much rule change. That was only to get control of the #6 car. There will be another rule change when the NEW SHERRIFF gets a hold of the #0 car.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There wont be much rule change. That was only to get control of the #6 car. There will be another rule change when the NEW SHERRIFF gets a hold of the #0 car.

Don't be so sure. Lr unsprung weight is the new boogyman like traction control was 15 years ago.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

Don't be so sure. Lr unsprung weight is the new boogyman like traction control was 15 years ago.

I heard there doing something w rear axle tube or something to that effect.

[Stede Bonnet]

Don't be so sure. Lr unsprung weight is the new boogyman like traction control was 15 years ago.

Why do they keep insisting on chasing the Boogey-man? He doesn't exist and the rule book is getting fat & stupid while they grope around in the dark trying to grab him... "MARCO!"

[Barbecueboy]

Why do they keep insisting on chasing the Boogey-man? He doesn't exist and the rule book is getting fat & stupid while they grope around in the dark trying to grab him... "MARCO!"

The boogie man checks for chuck Norris under his bed before going to sleep every night.....just sayin.

[zyoung25]

I heard there doing something w rear axle tube or something to that effect.

Ever think of having a axle tube made of tungsten carbide?

[Stede Bonnet]

Ever think of having a axle tube made of tungsten carbide?

I'm sure someone has but it seems to me it would be a waste of money when you could achieve the same effect with bolt on weight. It'd be a helluva lot easier to move the weight around for different track conditions bolted on instead of forged into an axle tube... Once again, why bother making a rule on this when a cheaper equivalent solution is available? The heavy axles and the wheel spacers I understand better than bothering with an exotic axle tube, because they are easy to swap out for dampening engine torque in the slick.

[Ryan21mid]

Aren't ISP seats full containment? If so they're legal..If not bolt on a $200 kit and go race.

[MittenMadman]

Aren't ISP seats full containment? If so they're legal..If not bolt on a $200 kit and go race.Yes they are. We were told that we might not be legal and have to send it back down to have it SFI rated...

[W2Racing09]

Yes they are. We were told that we might not be legal and have to send it back down to have it SFI rated...

Was that before they announced that they had relaxed the SFI Requirements for this season? As I understood it was only needing to be full containment.

The drivers you are saying don't have $40k cars, are they not SLM? I don't often see All Alumnimum motors selling for under $20k, and a nice roller newer than 2013 is probably going to cost in the area of $20k as well all said and done. I don't think the $40k number is that ridiculous ($100k which is what some of the National guys are spending on the other hand...). I do know that there are a lot of guys running in less than a $40k car too, its not ideal and I think after the changes they made the rules make more sense. I don't think going from no rules one season, to restrictive rules the next is necessarily the best way to do things and I'm glad they changed it.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[racerb12]

What do u think Lucas oil, drug checking your drivers for safety or bolting a wheel cover on.

[Stede Bonnet]

What do u think Lucas oil, drug checking your drivers for safety or bolting a wheel cover on.

I think the rule makers need to be drug tested. I'm NOT doing FC, period.

@W2 your assertion that if $40K is no biggie every year to an average team, whats another $10K for the new garb is in error. Most local teams don't buy a "New/Used" engine every season or a new/used car, they spent years accumulating and struggle to pay for rebuilds. IMHO, the roof line is too low and the c@ckpit is too confined to safely use FC seats in a DLM, especially for taller and/or larger drivers.

Once the concussions and neck injuries spike they'll make some other bonehead rule too. No thanks.

[zyoung25]

I'm sure someone has but it seems to me it would be a waste of money when you could achieve the same effect with bolt on weight. It'd be a helluva lot easier to move the weight around for different track conditions bolted on instead of forged into an axle tube... Once again, why bother making a rule on this when a cheaper equivalent solution is available? The heavy axles and the wheel spacers I understand better than bothering with an exotic axle tube, because they are easy to swap out for dampening engine torque in the slick.

Who's to say the axle tubes were the only thing made of this stuff? When these parts are made, they're always there. Not in the way, and no worries of them shifting. It makes sense to me.

[W2Racing09]

I think the rule makers need to be drug tested. I'm NOT doing FC, period.

@W2 your assertion that if $40K is no biggie every year to an average team, whats another $10K for the new garb is in error. Most local teams don't buy a "New/Used" engine every season or a new/used car, they spent years accumulating and struggle to pay for rebuilds. IMHO, the roof line is too low and the c@ckpit is too confined to safely use FC seats in a DLM, especially for taller and/or larger drivers.

Once the concussions and neck injuries spike they'll make some other bonehead rule too. No thanks.

Not sure where the $10k number is coming from.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Highside Hustler25]

IMHO, the roof line is too low and the c@ckpit is too confined to safely use FC seats in a DLM, especially for taller and/or larger drivers.

Once the concussions and neck injuries spike they'll make some other bonehead rule too. No thanks.

This has been a complaint from numerous racers. I think the only solution is to raise the minimum roof height. I never did understand those tight confined c0ckpits.

[Krooser]

Anyone else notice how many fuel cells have popped up for sale in recent weeks on some of the FB pages and other places?

[chupp n bloomer fan]

What do u think Lucas oil, drug checking your drivers for safety or bolting a wheel cover on.Apparently you've never seen one of them wheel covers fly off. What do you think a metal or heavy plastic wheel cover flying off a car does when it hits someone. It's a way bigger issue than the drug testing sh!t.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I think the rule makers need to be drug tested. I'm NOT doing FC, period.

@W2 your assertion that if $40K is no biggie every year to an average team, whats another $10K for the new garb is in error. Most local teams don't buy a "New/Used" engine every season or a new/used car, they spent years accumulating and struggle to pay for rebuilds. IMHO, the roof line is too low and the c@ckpit is too confined to safely use FC seats in a DLM, especially for taller and/or larger drivers.

Once the concussions and neck injuries spike they'll make some other bonehead rule too. No thanks.The whole issue is the c0ckpit/halo, not the seats. I've not heard any proof that the seats have caused the injuries, or death. Lack of trained safety personnel, lack of halo room, and lack of properly fitted/modern safety equipment, yes.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

The whole issue is the c0ckpit/halo, not the seats. I've not heard any proof that the seats have caused the injuries, or death. Lack of trained safety personnel, lack of halo room, and lack of properly fitted/modern safety equipment, yes.

There is actually little to no concrete evidence for any side of the argument. Head and neck injuries are on the rise. Why? Mods are still slower than lates of 10 years ago. There are injuries there too. Racers are way more concerned about going fast than being safe. Despite that, there is a lot of conventional wisdom concerning the suspension that is completely wrong. Go figure.

[powerslide]

Apparently you've never seen one of them wheel covers fly off. What do you think a metal or heavy plastic wheel cover flying off a car does when it hits someone. It's a way bigger issue than the drug testing sh!t.

Do away with them. Very simple. If someone bitches that they need them because of the cushion allow a berm buster on the RR. Its gotta be bolted between the beadlock ring and the wheel or made into the beadlock ring.

[Barbecueboy]

Do away with them. Very simple. If someone bitches that they need them because of the cushion allow a berm buster on the RR. Its gotta be bolted between the beadlock ring and the wheel or made into the beadlock ring.

Excellent ideas...........

[racerb12]

I guess I need to explain,i was just using the wheel cover as a example of all the safety rules coming out in the sport. I thought that if somebody wanted all these safety rules that Lucas oil should do the drug testing like the dirt group is.i sure don't want to be out there if somebody is out there with head support,3500.fuel cell 1000. Fire bottle and bolt on wheel cover, and etc. and is out of his mind on some form of drug. If they are looking for safety I would think they should start there to show how serious they are on safety.thats all I was trying to say

[Stede Bonnet]

I'm amazed at what people are and aren't scared of, the real and the imagined. Its like the outcry about kids who get shot with a firearm, 100 kids will drown in a pool for every 1 that gets shot, that's a fact. But the media swarms in around guns and suddenly its the most urgent thing that needs dealing with. We had 2 deaths this year in super DLM that I am aware of, one burn victim unable to exit his car or be extricated and one internal injuries death. The burn victim probably would've benefited from the on board fire suppression, I can't argue with that, but my opinion is also his seat and the design of the c@ckpit hindered his escape too. The internal injuries death was not related to any of the safety devices now in vogue or mandated, it was just his time. The drug testing at best will only effect the following week and NOT protect anyone on the day of the impairment, but I was unaware of wide spread substance abuse on the national tour amongst drivers. To me this is just a tool that can be used at their discretion to discredit anyone they see fit. Take a sudafed before the race and they test you, BAM your a meth-head until proven otherwise. They can't handle tire testing to a satisfactory level why would anyone put their personal reputation in their fumbling hands? May I never darken the gates at a WoO event.

[zyoung25]

I'm sure someone has but it seems to me it would be a waste of money when you could achieve the same effect with bolt on weight. It'd be a helluva lot easier to move the weight around for different track conditions bolted on instead of forged into an axle tube... Once again, why bother making a rule on this when a cheaper equivalent solution is available? The heavy axles and the wheel spacers I understand better than bothering with an exotic axle tube, because they are easy to swap out for dampening engine torque in the slick.

http://hogantechnologies.com/left-rear-axle-weight-dirt-late-models-modifieds/

[billetbirdcage]

Rules will be released in 2 or 3 days, could even be slightly sooner but most likely before the weeks out

[Stede Bonnet]

http://hogantechnologies.com/left-rear-axle-weight-dirt-late-models-modifieds/

Thank you, I get his emails too. Much appreciated. This is what happens when they make rules on things they don't understand. If you can find it Kevin Rumley's interview on the Dirt Nation podcast sheds even more light on things and makes a lot of sense, unlike the "Royal Rules Committee" and their logic.