crate cheating and Mullins

[team jarvis]

Copied this from facebook. Mullins telling like it is. Post below is a quote from Chad Mullins. Since our last post on Facebook, I have had time to do a lot of research. It blows me away how many people are cheating the 604 engine. We mentioned that we were looking into this on the last post. Since then, we have had many phone calls wanting this done. Then after researching it, I would have to say that 40-50% of the engines have had work done. We have decided we are going to offer this service. We’re going to be open about it, letting racers know this is something we’re going to do and we’re going to do it well. The aftermarket companies have parts available from valve springs, cam grinds, pistons, and cranks to do stroker kits. The bolts and tags are not a problem, they are readily available. Soon we will have pricing on our website with a breakdown of what services we will offer. We will keep new engines in stock with multiple options of work being done. I have come to the conclusion that if IMCA gets their kickback off the engine when it is sold, they’re not concerned if they are cheated or not. The tech side of the crate is pathetic. The guys running our Crate Killers this summer got all but strip searched, borderline harassed by the tech guys. I still don't understand how IMCA would make this rule change knowing the open type engine only won approximately 30% of the races. But the saying goes "if you can’t beat them, join them" and with the rule change this is what we’re going to do. I would like to let any of the vendors at PRI know if you have some products to offer us please swing by our booth (3242) and show us. We are planning on selling some product in 2017!!! Kind regards, Chad Mullins

[superstock50]

Wow!, people are cheating? I would have never believed it!

[sirleafalot]

I am not shocked at all but IMCA is giving the spolier back to the crates next year if I heard right. You get the best of both worlds if you are able to cheat up the motor as well.

[93Nelson]

The crates get the spoiler back.

This guy just had his moment to start $h*t and I guarantee he'll be eating those words next year. His figures of 40-50% of crates that are cheated up is from what? how in the h3ll would you even get that number? Anyway, IMCA still needs to step it up though. they've half a$$'d teched these things for too long.

[team jarvis]

The crates get the spoiler back. This guy just had his moment to start $h*t and I guarantee he'll be eating those words next year. His figures of 40-50% of crates that are cheated up is from what? how in the h3ll would you even get that number? Anyway, IMCA still needs to step it up though. they've half a$$'d teched these things for too long. even more interesting is UMP with there push on bmods to run crates and UMP is not teching any crates at all and forcing open engines to add weight.....

[93Nelson]

You can understand why these sanctions want to push crates. They get their cut and the racer as an affordable option but they HAVE TO TECH!!!!! If you want to cheat and spend more money with a crate, why don't you build a motor? Why go through the bs. Both motors around here have been very competitive so just build a good open motor.

Mullins is just butt hurt because the spoiler is back.

I'm not sure about the ump deal so I can't say much. They're probably just trying things out to make it even. It's what IMCA did for a few years and this past year showed it was about as close to even as it could be.

[oldfart50]

Mullins is just butt hurt because he cant build enough power legally to compete with factory engines. He has been a huge problem to the sport anyway with his high engine cost. Engine builders are not needed in Modified racing and crates are a GREAT way to do away with them...

[calverton]

Why give spoilers to crates but not open motors? and my God if the crates are winning everything just call them b mods and be done with it

[calverton]

even more interesting is UMP with there push on bmods to run crates and UMP is not teching any crates at all and forcing open engines to add weight.....that is total bull crap they are teching at least the tracks I attend

[93Nelson]

The thing is his motors were winning against the crates. His motor won the super nationals. I seen more open motors winning this year then the past couple of years. Now IMCA brought the spoiler back in for the crates and now they feel like they're behind again. It's too early to tell. I don't know why they did it but it's whatever.

[calverton]

Again same rules for everyone and should be same tech

[brownIdriller]

that is total bull crap they are teching at least the tracks I attend

= I don't race, I don't race, I don't know what I'm talking about, BBrrrrrrrrrtttttttttttt!!

[calverton]

Well tell us almighty one what should be done

[brownIdriller]

Well tell us almighty one what should be done

= I don't race, I don't race, I don't know what I'm talking about, BBrrrrrrrrrtttttttttttt!!

[calverton]

Exactly same ole schitck you don' t know (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)

[brownIdriller]

Exactly same ole schitck you don't sh!t

=BBrrrrrrrrrtttttttttttt!!

[calverton]

yep that sounds about like you talking out of your a@@ you need to see the doctor

[rustymod]

UMP worst crate pusher out there with zero tech on crates. not to mention they are running off the bmod open engine cars. unless they get a clue they will see more and more tracks go no sanction or usra for bmods.

[calverton]

that is total bs depends on the track

[brownIdriller]

that is total bs depends on the track

= Bbrrrrrrrttttttt!

[calverton]

you really need to get that fixed

[rustymod]

that is total bs depends on the track

no you need to get off this board you clueless old troll. UMP is losing more bmod tracks due to there constant pushing of the crate. Since you do not own a car and do not race you do not know any of this. You drag your @ss to a couple of tracks around STL and suddenly you are an expert on all tracks that are UMP somehow. Wake up ! there is a really good reason that you were kicked of STL Racing and this board many times Dirthound and will be kicked off again. You SHOULD ask yourself...Are you being kicked of these boards because you have a well informed opinion ??? The answer is NO. You have been kicked off numerous times because no one wants to hear your uninformed BS. On top of that you suck up to UMP every chance you get when its well none that we could hire two winos in the alley behind Busch Stadium and they could do a better job than the current people running UMP, but somehow you Lite Inn Fred find a way to suggest that UMP is doing a good job when the vast majority of racers have figured out that Sam and UMP could not organize a two car funeral.
Worst yet Fred you call out people for results when you have none of your own. You dont own a car, you do not race, you do not crew on a car, you do not race a car. you need to stick to the general opinion section where you can discuss non racing subjects.

[stock car driver]

The thing is his motors were winning against the crates. His motor won the super nationals. I seen more open motors winning this year then the past couple of years. Now IMCA brought the spoiler back in for the crates and now they feel like they're behind again. It's too early to tell. I don't know why they did it but it's whatever.

How is it to early to tell. The spoiler was on a crate just one season ago and they dominated. The crate still won every big special event this year with no spoiler.

IMCA is about their pocket, not equality.

[calverton]

no you need to get off this board you clueless old troll. UMP is losing more bmod tracks due to there constant pushing of the crate. Since you do not own a car and do not race you do not know any of this. You drag your @ss to a couple of tracks around STL and suddenly you are an expert on all tracks that are UMP somehow. Wake up ! there is a really good reason that you were kicked of STL Racing and this board many times Dirthound and will be kicked off again. You SHOULD ask yourself...Are you being kicked of these boards because you have a well informed opinion ??? The answer is NO. You have been kicked off numerous times because no one wants to hear your uninformed BS. On top of that you suck up to UMP every chance you get when its well none that we could hire two winos in the alley behind Busch Stadium and they could do a better job than the current people running UMP, but somehow you Lite Inn Fred find a way to suggest that UMP is doing a good job when the vast majority of racers have figured out that Sam and UMP could not organize a two car funeral. Worst yet Fred you call out people for results when you have none of your own. You dont own a car, you do not race, you do not crew on a car, you do not race a car. you need to stick to the general opinion section where you can discuss non racing subjects.they are losing tracks because of suspension rules that teams don't like plus a crate won the national championship not saying I like it either may not own a car but good friend with drivers and teams that including the driver who won the real racer award from Ken Schrader last weekend

[HEAVY DUTY]

I have never noticed a hood off of a crate car in my area. Some of them cackle, and some of them sound like a pickup. The ones that cackle seem to be a lot faster. I wonder if GM sells cackling crates ? Maybe it is just the headers. LOL

[calverton]

and that would who's fault the track correct

[GavinHunyady187]

I have never noticed a hood off of a crate car in my area. Some of them cackle, and some of them sound like a pickup. The ones that cackle seem to be a lot faster. I wonder if GM sells cackling crates ? Maybe it is just the headers. LOL

They should probably be teching what's in the fuel instead of under the hood. Regardless, up here in Michigan everything gets teched in IMCA, often they like to throw in their own rules and tech even harder. I'm ok with it, since the alternative of no tech (UMP) is much worse ($$$).

[dirtrace09]

Calverton it is actually a combination of the track and UMP's fault. A track signs on as a partner with UMP as the sanctioning body. It is the responsibility of UMP and the track to enforce the rules that was written by the sanctioning body. However, most tracks and UMP fall short of rule enforcement. Checking for sealed bolts is not much teching. I would be happy to build you Calverton a sealed gm 602 that is in no way legal by UMP standards but would not be teched so you can take your modified to the winners circle.

[93Nelson]

How is it to early to tell. The spoiler was on a crate just one season ago and they dominated. The crate still won every big special event this year with no spoiler.

IMCA is about their pocket, not equality.

I bet it will be closer than it was a few years ago when the spoiler first came in.

The crates won a lot but not every big one. Thorton won at super nats with an open. Kay won with an open at Knoxville. Those are just the ones I know.

For the record, I don't agree with the spoiler being back. The crates don't need them and we all know it's lining the pockets of IMCA. That's old news.

[GavinHunyady187]

Mullins got what they wanted though, everyone talking about them right before PRI.

[rustymod]

they are losing tracks because of suspension rules that teams don't like plus a crate won the national championship not saying I like it either may not own a car but good friend with drivers and teams that including the driver who won the real racer award from Ken Schrader last weekend

so you have good friends that race super. Bottom line UMP is losing Bmod tracks due to engine rules. Teams with open engines that do not want to buy crates and do not want to add extra 100 lbs to run against crate are leaving UMP tracks or demanding that the promoter leave UMP for bmods.

Crates are not being teched and they need to be. I am glad to see Mullins post as this will open the door to reality, there is some cheating going on with crates and the sanctions are looking the other way since they are getting paid for each crate.

[stock car driver]

I bet it will be closer than it was a few years ago when the spoiler first came in.

The crates won a lot but not every big one. Thorton won at super nats with an open. Kay won with an open at Knoxville. Those are just the ones I know.

For the record, I don't agree with the spoiler being back. The crates don't need them and we all know it's lining the pockets of IMCA. That's old news.

Opens won those two races this year, when the crate had no spoiler.....

[calverton]

so you have good friends that race super. Bottom line UMP is losing Bmod tracks due to engine rules. Teams with open engines that do not want to buy crates and do not want to add extra 100 lbs to run against crate are leaving UMP tracks or demanding that the promoter leave UMP for bmods.Crates are not being teched and they need to be. I am glad to see Mullins post as this will open the door to reality, there is some cheating going on with crates and the sanctions are looking the other way since they are getting paid for each crate.b mod are nothing but a crashfest anyway who needs them

[93Nelson]

Opens won those two races this year, when the crate had no spoiler.....

Idk. I still think it's going to be close. Not like it was a few years ago.

[kidrock]

that is total bull crap they are teching at least the tracks I attend

really what are they teching and how far are they going. are they tearing a motor down to see what's in it?

[calverton]

Really need a big motor some tracks lmao a couple b mods made the main at the dome which is the size ofmacon and bellevegas and you don't have to tear the motor down a p and g test and various other test can be performed

[brownIdriller]

b mod are nothing but a crashfest anyway who needs them

=Bbbbrrrrrtttttt!

[brownIdriller]

Really need a big motor some tracks lmao a couple b mods made the main at the dome which is the size ofmacon and bellevegas and you don't have to tear the motor down a p and g test and various other test can be performed

=Bbbbrrrrrtttttt!

[calverton]

don't believe me prove me wrong

[1bbmft]

Our I Mod class at Kankakee Il. and Shadyhill In. allowed the crate motor this past season and there were two guys running them and they RAN away with EVERY feature. I had a 355ci motor with every opion part allowed and we ran 4th both nights we ran. It took all the fun outta it and we decided to stay home. The crate deal was/had the potential to be a very affordable class but like every other class in racing racers are there own enemy.

[kidrock]

Our I Mod class at Kankakee Il. and Shadyhill In. allowed the crate motor this past season and there were two guys running them and they RAN away with EVERY feature. I had a 355ci motor with every opion part allowed and we ran 4th both nights we ran. It took all the fun outta it and we decided to stay home. The crate deal was/had the potential to be a very affordable class but like every other class in racing racers are there own enemy.


Yes Tom and the lack of real teching and the racers themselves. Always crying about cost but, are the first to cheat and run up the cost.

[rustymod]

b mod are nothing but a crashfest anyway who needs them

really where do run a bmod at ? you talk about whats needed for tech for crates but have you ever seen UMP or any UMP track tech a crate engine ever ? I can tell you it never happens.

[Cooter Davenport]

good friend with drivers and teams that including the driver who won the real racer award from Ken Schrader last weekend

Asked Mike about you this weekend and all he could do was laugh a shake his head...LOL

[calverton]

really now I known mike a lil longer than you have , known Mike since around 1978 maybe earlier

[rustymod]

really now I known mike a lil longer than you have , known Mike since around 1978 maybe earlier
Excellent so since Mike has known you for so long than clearly he would we an excellent reference for the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to racign and you dont participate other than attending races and typing on 4m and getting banned on 4m and STL raicng regularly because everyone is tired of your BS

[brownIdriller]

really now I known mike a lil longer than you have , known Mike since around 1978 maybe earlier

= Bbbrrrttttt!!

[Illtsate32]

Two part question..what exactly is done to the crate to cheat it up? And how easy is it to tell its been cheated are any getting teched and they are missing the signs or is UMP just not checking them at all?

[calverton]

really where do run a bmod at ? you talk about whats needed for tech for crates but have you ever seen UMP or any UMP track tech a crate engine ever ? I can tell you it never happens. tech wise most certainly every big show locally and every sat. night was it fair of who they teched everyweek he11 no but they did tech

[over4T]

One of our region's IMCA licensed rebuilders currently has a rebuilt 604 for sale. On alcohol it dynoed 492 HP, 489 torque. Pretty much says it all to the guy who buys a new stock one from GM. The winning 602s are just as bad in the Sport or B Mods.

[calverton]

That is a crock how can he be a licensed rebuilder getting those numbers what is the point of having a crate if its dynoed way above the the none rebuild ones are

[rustymod]

Two part question..what exactly is done to the crate to cheat it up? And how easy is it to tell its been cheated are any getting teched and they are missing the signs or is UMP just not checking them at all?

you said it. UMP is not doing anything to tech crates, pretty much they will verify its a crate at best in bmods and then let you go. most times there is zero engine tech for crates.

What are they doing to crates...well as Mullins says the sky is the limit, cam changes, increased stroke too.

[rustymod]

That is a crock how can he be a licensed rebuilder getting those numbers what is the point of having a crate if its dynoed way above the the none rebuild ones are

wait a minute Lite Inn you said that UMP is teching crates so why are they not checking this ????? Why havent they caught this ?

Mullins had it right crate seals are just a license to cheat.

[over4T]

rustymod, in fairness to calverton I think ( but am never quite sure with him) he was referring to the IMCA engine I mentioned. I'm west coast and no UMP out here. But tech is still a joke. The only way crates will ever be what they were intended is for everyone to buy their engine from a GM dealer at the track and install it there and return it at the end of the night....and we all know that ain't remotely likely.

[calverton]

Exactly plus some drivers have 10 15 20 years exp at any sanction I hope they can win often

[rustymod]

rustymod, in fairness to calverton I think ( but am never quite sure with him) he was referring to the IMCA engine I mentioned. I'm west coast and no UMP out here. But tech is still a joke. The only way crates will ever be what they were intended is for everyone to buy their engine from a GM dealer at the track and install it there and return it at the end of the night....and we all know that ain't remotely likely.

if IMCA is not checking very well and they tech more than UMP ever has or will then that spells is out and tells all that as long as you have the seals you can do a whole lot of work to the engine. I know I have heard of a crate that was turning 8k, they tried switching the MSD box and blaming the ignition and let racer continue to run. crates are getting away with whatever they want it seems. as long as it has seals apparently anything goes.

[calverton]

This coming from a guy that doesn't bother showing up at the track

[brownIdriller]

This coming from a guy that doesn't bother showing up at the track

= Bbbrrrtttttttt!

[blackdoom14]

This coming from a guy that doesn't bother showing up at the track

You just can't help yourself can you? You post something that's almost literate, then you follow with more of your BS. It's no wonder you've been banned more times than anyone else on this board. You can't fix what you have.

[blueracer11]

tech wise most certainly every big show locally and every sat. night was it fair of who they teched everyweek he11 no but they did tech

Just because someone has the title of "official" or "inspector" and walks around a car doesn't mean they inspected it. You would know this if you actually did something other than cruise the concession stand. It's jokers like you that make it hard to have an intelligent conversation about the actual state of modified racing. I can tell you that this board was a much better place when you and your buddy were not allowed to post. Just my opinion as a car owner and driver. Don't bother asking for any details either. I'm following your lead on that one.

[modracr41]

Good point blueracer11. Up here in Minnesota, IMCA does a pretty good job of inspecting the cars. They will check the seals on a crate motor, and I've even seen them pull the oil pan to check for illegal parts, etc. It's a very random thing, so it is possible you could run a cheated up crate and get by with it here and there, but it would eventually catch up with you. The difference is that the officials at our track have to go to school to learn the correct way to "tech" the cars. IMCA tracks agree to this as a condition of IMCA sanctioning. It does help but the truth of the matter is it varies from track to track depending on who's winning, and what the promoter wants you to look at.

[calverton]

Just because someone has the title of "official" or "inspector" and walks around a car doesn't mean they inspected it. You would know this if you actually did something other than cruise the concession stand. It's jokers like you that make it hard to have an intelligent conversation about the actual state of modified racing. I can tell you that this board was a much better place when you and your buddy were not allowed to post. Just my opinion as a car owner and driver. Don't bother asking for any details either. I'm following your lead on that one.iI GEUSS P AND G ING A MOTOR IS NOT TECH i GUESS CHECKING THE CAR B IS NOT TECH OR CHECKING THE SUSPENSION IS WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TOBE LIKE NO CHAIN LIMITERS THEY CAME UP WITH WHICH IS PURE GARBAGE

[GavinHunyady187]

One of our region's IMCA licensed rebuilders currently has a rebuilt 604 for sale. On alcohol it dynoed 492 HP, 489 torque. Pretty much says it all to the guy who buys a new stock one from GM. The winning 602s are just as bad in the Sport or B Mods.

Just some food for thought

1. the 400hp advertised output is a brand new (green) engine, on pump gas, the break-in cycle alone will increase output
2. after the GM spec break-in cycle mine made 467hp on non-oxygenated, unleaded racegas, alky should make more
3. intentionally or not, if care isnt taken to set the correction factor on a dyno to the SAE spec, you can get all sorts of misleading numbers (which is why most people only compare A-to-B on the same test day)

[brownIdriller]

[QUOTE=calverton;2068518]iI GEUSS P AND G ING A MOTOR IS NOT TECH i GUESS CHECKING THE CAR B IS NOT TECH OR CHECKING THE SUSPENSION IS WHAT ITS SUPPOSE TOBE LIKE NO CHAIN LIMITERS THEY CAME UP WITH WHICH IS PURE GARBAGE[/

= BBbbbrrrrtttttt!!

[stock car driver]

Just some food for thought

1. the 400hp advertised output is a brand new (green) engine, on pump gas, the break-in cycle alone will increase output
2. after the GM spec break-in cycle mine made 467hp on non-oxygenated, unleaded racegas, alky should make more
3. intentionally or not, if care isnt taken to set the correction factor on a dyno to the SAE spec, you can get all sorts of misleading numbers (which is why most people only compare A-to-B on the same test day)

Ive dyno crates that had ten minutes on them and dyno them again at 30,60,120 nights, when is this break in you speak of over? Ive never had one gain hp they've all been within 5 of the first time I dyno them.

[GavinHunyady187]

Ive dyno crates that had ten minutes on them and dyno them again at 30,60,120 nights, when is this break in you speak of over? Ive never had one gain hp they've all been within 5 of the first time I dyno them.

That's awesome! I suppose you know this, but... depending on where you bought it, it may have already had the break-in done. I don't know what you tell you, but I know in production engines there is a pretty big variation prior to break-in (which is why it exists). I think Karl's and Freisen both sell engines that have run the break in, but IDK for sure. There is a whole industry for the latemodel crowd on tar and dirt for "blueprinting" engines based on this variation though.

Calibrating the dyno, and adjusting the correction factor is a big deal. Probably others have more experience but, I've never seen a racing shop do it right. Mostly because they can't do it right due to the climate control in their facilities. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in that game, and not all of it is intentional.

Section 5.1 of SAE J1349 explains that the correction factor is applicable for air temperatures between 15C-35C, with a barometer of 900 to 1050mb, in "dry" air <-- meaning anywhere in the midwest requires A/C in the cell, which I've never seen at a "race" shop.

Your statement is the reason why the crate is a good thing, 120 nights with that level of consistency... and people think its a bad thing? I have to think that if you're seeing results that consistent that you ARE doing this correctly, or you're incredibly lucky, but either way I'm sure you can understand why its tough to trust ANY long term testing results at face value.

I should have mentioned that I don't necessarily trust the rating on mine that I got from Karl's for the same reason, and that 400hp from GM is likely underrated to ensure that it never tests below advertised... and that is probably a LOT bigger difference than any other factor.

Did you ever sell that 406? I'll be out your way in January, I'd be interested in picking it up if you still have it.

[rustymod]

sounds like the new packages that Mullins will offer will certainly dyno much better than the factory specs.

[stock car driver]

That's awesome! I suppose you know this, but... depending on where you bought it, it may have already had the break-in done. I don't know what you tell you, but I know in production engines there is a pretty big variation prior to break-in (which is why it exists). I think Karl's and Freisen both sell engines that have run the break in, but IDK for sure. There is a whole industry for the latemodel crowd on tar and dirt for "blueprinting" engines based on this variation though.

Calibrating the dyno, and adjusting the correction factor is a big deal. Probably others have more experience but, I've never seen a racing shop do it right. Mostly because they can't do it right due to the climate control in their facilities. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in that game, and not all of it is intentional.

Section 5.1 of SAE J1349 explains that the correction factor is applicable for air temperatures between 15C-35C, with a barometer of 900 to 1050mb, in "dry" air <-- meaning anywhere in the midwest requires A/C in the cell, which I've never seen at a "race" shop.

Your statement is the reason why the crate is a good thing, 120 nights with that level of consistency... and people think its a bad thing? I have to think that if you're seeing results that consistent that you ARE doing this correctly, or you're incredibly lucky, but either way I'm sure you can understand why its tough to trust ANY long term testing results at face value.

I should have mentioned that I don't necessarily trust the rating on mine that I got from Karl's for the same reason, and that 400hp from GM is likely underrated to ensure that it never tests below advertised... and that is probably a LOT bigger difference than any other factor.

Did you ever sell that 406? I'll be out your way in January, I'd be interested in picking it up if you still have it.

still have it

if your getting 467hp crates on gas from karls I would stick with those

[calverton]

never seen a dyno win a race

[GavinHunyady187]

still have it

if your getting 467hp crates on gas from karls I would stick with those

its just a piece of paper... thats the whole point of this conversation.

[rustymod]

the issue with crates are not the dyno numbers but rather the lack of tech the fact there is plenty of upgrades going on with no inspection taking place.

[calverton]

And it's not ump being the bad ones either imagine that

[rustymod]

And it's not ump being the bad ones either imagine that

still trying to defend UMP. UMP techs the least of any major sanction. They are NOT teching crates at all. sure you MIGHT have seen it once at the one track you go to. The truth is UMP is not teching anyone much less crates.
Anyone that runs UMP Bmod can tell you this without a doubt. Wake up and quit kissing UMP's backside every chance you get. Not sure why you constantly try to defend the poorest ran sanction of all time but everyone else knows that UMP does not tech. tell Sam that when you see him at Christmas dinner.

[calverton]

All sanctions. Have issues and I wish the bmods would die again

[rustymod]

All sanctions. Have issues and I wish the bmods would die again

better yet too bad your login in does not die again. bmods are not going anywhere because A mods are expensive in fact bmods and sport mods are growing much faster.

sure no sanction is perfect, too bad UMP is the worst, no tech, rules rarely posted before the season and no one is running the ship. Sam and the gang dont do much other than hang out in NC and count Hoosier money.

[brownIdriller]

All sanctions. Have issues and I wish the bmods would die again

Yet more proof you have no clue about the state of racing, or what's good for the future of it. The B-mod or Sport mod class is the fastest growing class at most tracks due to sanctioning bodies and promoters not enforcing rules for higher classes, resulting in the classes being too expensive and pricing themselves out of existence. At one track I attend frequently, the B-mods pull in 30+ cars for a weekly show, the A-mods only pull in 17-20 cars and A-mods are the top billing. (Just so you understand, there are no Late Models, or Sprint cars at this particular track due to the costs of running them.) Those 30 cars run for $300 to win, and $35 to start. Each of them pay a pit pass of $25 plus an average of 3 crew so that's $100 x 30 or $3000. This helps pay the purse for the A-mods and some of the other classes. So killing off a class will result in a loss of revenue, and could ultimately force a track to close it's gates. Would that be good for racing? Like I've said before, leave racing to racers and go back to something you know about like concessions, chasing you buddy around the rest area, UFO's etc.

[calverton]

a mods poor thing must be tough one for you to only have a mods as a top class meanwhile a nice cheap amod motor and a strong one http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?365671-415-Dargie-Racing-Engine

[rustymod]

a mods poor thing must be tough one for you to only have a mods as a top class meanwhile a nice cheap amod motor and a strong one http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?365671-415-Dargie-Racing-Engine

Which motor do you have in your amod Fred ?

[calverton]

That one rusty

[brownIdriller]

That one rusty

= Bbbbbrrrrttttt!

[rustymod]

That one rusty

what in the imaginary car that you dont race and dont own ???? you dont spend any money on the sport and dont race. tell us what nachos costs thats something you know a lot about.