Time for some new rules re. Provisionals

[TBSprintFan]

It is time for Lucas and WoO Late Models to make some new rules regarding provisional. So far in 7 Lucas Races (I know they are not all points) Francis & Flinner = 4 ea., Pearson Jr. = 3, Lannigan & Erb Jr. = 2 ea.. Why would some non touring & smaller teams and esp. drivers from other series want to compete? These 2 series should follow the WoO Sprints rules regarding provisional, esp, the part of 4 maximum 8.0 Provisional & Alternate Starting Positions A.) If provisionals are permitted in the Feature event; the car(s) owner(s) and driver(s) will earn full WoO 14 points. B.) All 2017 WoO Platinum Member race teams that raced the entire 2016 season either as an Owner or Driver will begin the 2017 season with 2 provisionals. 2017 Gold Members that are in good standing will earn 2 provisionals after the 5th race night of the 2017 season and will also transition to Platinum status at that time. On July 1, 2017, any Platinum Team having raced 100% of the schedule to date will earn an additional 2 provisionals. The total provisionals any team can accumulate for the 2017 season is four (4). Any Owner or Driver that has already exhausted their allotted provisionals but gain additional provisionals by switching teams and/or by any other legal means will earn show-up points only for any further provisional starts. C.) Any Team using a provisional shall forfeit the minimum start money paid for the A Main Feature. Any position attained that pays greater than the start money will be paid as advertised minus the start money amount. D.) All Teams wanting to take a provisional must have attempted to compete in at least one preliminary event leading up to the Feature. E.) Provisionals tag the rear of the A Main Feature. F.) Only two WoO provisionals will be permitted for each Event’s Feature race. G.) The following guidelines will be used for determining provisional order: a.) For the first 5 race nights of the 2017 season provisionals will be awarded according to last year’s final Owner and Driver Point standings. (For the first 5 nights of racing only 2016 Platinum Members that raced full time as an Owner or Driver from the previous year are eligible for provisionals) b.) Beginning on the 6th night of racing, current Owner Points will determine the provisional order. c.) When using 2016 Owner and Driver Points for the first 5 nights of racing, the provisional order will be established by combining the two point lists into one, numerically sequenced, list. If a team is comprised of a 2016 Owner and a different 2016 Driver then that team uses whichever has the highest point position. Owner Points will take precedent if a tie exists between any Owner and Driver. Other ties will be broken first by 2016 A Main Feature wins, then top 5 finishes, then top 10 finishes and finally by qualifying position. Multi-car teams cannot rotate drivers to enhance their provisional position. H.) Tracks, where a weekly sprint car program is raced and pointed, may install a program identically paid and pointed as the WoO provisional program, for up to 2 local drivers. I.) In the event that a car qualified for the Feature event is unable to take the initial green flag, the first nonqualified car will be taken as an Alternate. The original qualified car will not receive A Main Feature points. Alternates earn show-up points only. However, Alternates earn the full amount of purse money that their respective finishing position is scheduled to pay. Alternates will not be taken once the initial green flag has been displayed.

[TBSprintFan]

Sorry for the way it came out but it was written with paragraphs and such before it was posted.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Sorry for the way it came out but it was written with paragraphs and such before it was posted.I think there is a setting you gotta change in 4m to make it come out nicely. I wanna say basic might be the wording they use. Turn it opposite of what it is now.

[TBSprintFan]

It is time for Lucas and WoO Late Models to make some new rules regarding provisional. So far in 7 Lucas Races (I know they are not all points) Francis & Flinner = 4 ea., Pearson Jr. = 3, Lannigan & Erb Jr. = 2 ea.. Why would some non touring & smaller teams and esp. drivers from other series want to compete? These 2 series should follow the WoO Sprints rules regarding provisional, esp, the part of 4 maximum.

8.0 Provisional & Alternate Starting Positions
A.) If provisionals are permitted in the Feature event; the car(s) owner(s) and driver(s) will earn full WoO
14
points.
B.) All 2017 WoO Platinum Member race teams that raced the entire 2016 season either as an Owner or
Driver will begin the 2017 season with 2 provisionals. 2017 Gold Members that are in good standing will
earn 2 provisionals after the 5th race night of the 2017 season and will also transition to Platinum status
at that time. On July 1, 2017, any Platinum Team having raced 100% of the schedule to date will earn an
additional 2 provisionals. The total provisionals any team can accumulate for the 2017 season is four
(4). Any Owner or Driver that has already exhausted their allotted provisionals but gain additional
provisionals by switching teams and/or by any other legal means will earn show-up points only for any
further provisional starts.
C.) Any Team using a provisional shall forfeit the minimum start money paid for the A Main Feature. Any
position attained that pays greater than the start money will be paid as advertised minus the start
money amount.
D.) All Teams wanting to take a provisional must have attempted to compete in at least one preliminary
event leading up to the Feature.
E.) Provisionals tag the rear of the A Main Feature.
F.) Only two WoO provisionals will be permitted for each Event’s Feature race.
G.) The following guidelines will be used for determining provisional order:
a.) For the first 5 race nights of the 2017 season provisionals will be awarded according to last year’s
final Owner and Driver Point standings. (For the first 5 nights of racing only 2016 Platinum Members
that raced full time as an Owner or Driver from the previous year are eligible for provisionals)
b.) Beginning on the 6th night of racing, current Owner Points will determine the provisional order.
c.) When using 2016 Owner and Driver Points for the first 5 nights of racing, the provisional order will
be established by combining the two point lists into one, numerically sequenced, list. If a team is
comprised of a 2016 Owner and a different 2016 Driver then that team uses whichever has the
highest point position. Owner Points will take precedent if a tie exists between any Owner and
Driver. Other ties will be broken first by 2016 A Main Feature wins, then top 5 finishes, then top 10
finishes and finally by qualifying position. Multi-car teams cannot rotate drivers to enhance their
provisional position.
H.) Tracks, where a weekly sprint car program is raced and pointed, may install a program identically paid
and pointed as the WoO provisional program, for up to 2 local drivers.
I.) In the event that a car qualified for the Feature event is unable to take the initial green flag, the first nonqualified
car will be taken as an Alternate. The original qualified car will not receive A Main Feature points.
Alternates earn show-up points only. However, Alternates earn the full amount of purse money that their
respective finishing position is scheduled to pay. Alternates will not be taken once the initial green flag has
been displayed.

[TBSprintFan]

Thanks chubb n bloomer fan, changed the settings on my account and it worked.

[Latemodel333]

The drivers,and team owners that support the series should get a provisional, they spend the time and money to put a show on for us. The series limits the number of them that takes away from the field to just two, emergency provisionals do not effect non series racers. Anyone bitching they did not make the field because a regular used a provi should work a little harder to get one of the other 22 places.

[hucktyson]

Anyone who thinks at a national touring event you should
Be able to qualify last , run last in your heat , last in the B and still get a provisional is a clown. To fix this insanity limit it to 6 combined provisionals / emergency provisionals and don't allow a provisional unless you time in the top 50% or your wrecked in qualifying. You say non tour guys should work harder ??? Why doesn't that apply to someone who routinely qualifys in the last 5 reguardless of the field ? I understand the cars at that level are insanely fast , but that's why they have local and reigional races , not everyone belongs at national touring events. That's not an insult towards anyone but allowing a car that is not competitive to run the feature every (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) night is an insult to everyone.

[Tireguy17]

Like it or not, the Series MUST/HAVE to take care of their touring drivers FIRST.

Lets just say they capped the number of provisionals, and come June a Francis or Pearson or even Bloomer run out and drop off the tour. That is the last thing the series wants. So while it may seem moronic to let certain drivers use so many, they need to in exchange for drivers committing to the tour.

[Highside Hustler25]

The drivers,and team owners that support the series should get a provisional, they spend the time and money to put a show on for us. The series limits the number of them that takes away from the field to just two, after that the emergency provisionals do not effect non series racers. Anyone bitching because they did not make the field because a regular used a provi should work a little harder to get one of the other 22 places.

No, any touring racer who can't find the speed to beat a non touring regional guy needs to work a little harder.

See, it works both ways.

[Highside Hustler25]

Like it or not, the Series MUST/HAVE to take care of their touring drivers FIRST.

Lets just say they capped the number of provisionals, and come June a Francis or Pearson or even Bloomer run out and drop off the tour. That is the last thing the series wants. So while it may seem moronic to let certain drivers use so many, they need to in exchange for drivers committing to the tour.

Maybe some day, when non touring racers get fed up by getting beat by provisional' s, they'll quit attending these type events. Then when the touring series comes to town you can watch 2 heats with 6 cars each and a 12 car A Main.
At least some fans will be happy to be home by 8:00 PM

[Latemodel333]

No, any touring racer who can't find the speed to beat a non touring regional guy needs to work a little harder.

See, it works both ways.

They all need to work harder to be faster, but a team that has 100% attendance should get a provisional if they meet series requirements.

Lets face it, after speedweek is this really a problem? There where alot of teams/drivers switching chassis, and motors. I am sure a "regular" that cannot make the show on a regular basis will drop on his/her own.

[Tireguy17]

Maybe some day, when non touring racers get fed up by getting beat by provisional' s, they'll quit attending these type events. Then when the touring series comes to town you can watch 2 heats with 6 cars each and a 12 car A Main.
At least some fans will be happy to be home by 8:00 PM

So you're going with the "end of the racing world" analogy to prove a point huh?

A touring series benefits more from their touring guys staying on tour and making the features than local/regional racer starting 24th and being the 1st one lapped. JMO.

[Raceready]

No, any touring racer who can't find the speed to beat a non touring regional guy needs to work a little harder. See, it works both ways. Or they need to spend a little money on equipment !

[hucktyson]

Yeah Bloomquist is Mr Provisonal ... has rarely ever qualified on merit . The only way to get him on tour is to promise him 55 provisionals . So you guys cry about NASCAR start and park teams but Lucas start and park is cool ?

[TUTY]

I'm ok with the 2 Provisionals but Qualify 24 cars with 2 provisionals for a total of 26 cars.

[Latemodel333]

There should be provisonals for teams/drivers that have invested 1+ yrs on a tour, its up to that organization as to how many, and how often they can be used.
What we should be talking about is how dang good the weather, racing, car count, and crowds have been this year. Both major series will have some dang good points battles this year, which means the fans get what we have been asking for. Win-Win.... Happy Presidents Day!!!

[NormP]

As long as we're dreaming, I'd like to see both tours fail, and then you get to go to the big race in your area and see who decides to show up that night.

But until that happens, can we figure out a way to really penalize the guys that stop on the track to draw a caution then drive off as soon as the yellow is waved?

[hucktyson]

So the consensus of this board is that even if a guy is 2+ seconds a lap off he should
Be allowed race every night on the top touring series in America just because he showed up every night ??? And that's why the vast majority of this board is a bunch of losers who have never even made 50k in a year... that's the mentality you guys have and that's the results you guys have in life because of it. Imagine if the NFL kept anyone on a roster who showed up for practice oh yeah and let them play in every game too ..

[NormP]

Well your assumption about the yearly income of everyone here is definitely a leap of logic I sure wouldn't expect in a discussion about provisionals.

[ptown]

can we figure out a way to really penalize the guys that stop on the track to draw a caution then drive off as soon as the yellow is waved?


That's my biggest complaint, they need to somehow put a stop to that crap.

[Tireguy17]

A touring guy that is 2+ seconds off a lap?

Please......At least if you are going to make an argument, use realistic information.

[TBSprintFan]

So the consensus of this board is that even if a guy is 2+ seconds a lap off he should
Be allowed race every night on the top touring series in America just because he showed up every night ??? And that's why the vast majority of this board is a bunch of losers who have never even made 50k in a year... that's the mentality you guys have and that's the results you guys have in life because of it. Imagine if the NFL kept anyone on a roster who showed up for practice oh yeah and let them play in every game too ..

I totally agree with you, I guess some on here would like to see everyone get a participation trophy and equal pay throughout the field also.

[BloomerHarvickFan]

I say you give the guys enough provisionals for 25% of the schedule. Only drivers who competed full time the previous year.

If you are on tour as a new driver, you get 7 provisionals. And as a first time series regular, if you use your allotment of provisionals and then leave the tour, you forfeit any point fund money that you may be eligible for, and you don't get the provisionals if you attempt to run the series again, as punishment for falling off.

This season the schedule had 56 races....so you'd get 14 provisionals. I think 1 in 4 is a good rule.
It's fair. It gives guys who support the tour more than a fair amount of gimmes.

[TBSprintFan]

A touring guy that is 2+ seconds off a lap?

Please......At least if you are going to make an argument, use realistic information.

Did you watch last nights race, Colton Flinner was pretty darn close or maybe was even.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Lucas and WoO only want enough non regulars to fill out the field. They get that no sweat.

[W2Racing09]

As long as we're dreaming, I'd like to see both tours fail, and then you get to go to the big race in your area and see who decides to show up that night.

But until that happens, can we figure out a way to really penalize the guys that stop on the track to draw a caution then drive off as soon as the yellow is waved?

So you are hoping that the tours fall so that you can do the same thing you can do now (watch your local drivers race for local money)? Without the 80+ $10k+ to win shows that the series bring in there would be considerably fewer drivers making a living racing. Before you say the races would still happen, maybe some -- but most of the races are at tracks that race SLM all season and don't ever pay more than $3-$4k to win because there is no guarrantee of who will show up. Without the LOLMDS and WoO there are significantly fewer big money shows, and with fewer big money shows there will be fewer big time drivers and others out there racing.

Thanks.

[W2Racing09]

I totally agree with you, I guess some on here would like to see everyone get a participation trophy and equal pay throughout the field also.

No, I just think some on here have a brain between their ears and realize the economics of high level DLM racing/tours.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[hucktyson]

Jeff:

This is America and nothing is preventing you from buying a track or starting a series. Go ahead and pay 10k to start 20k to win and 5k tow money ... you think it will work so go ahead and put your money where your mouth is

[Drop Shock]

A touring guy that is 2+ seconds off a lap?

Please......At least if you are going to make an argument, use realistic information.

Flinner is off over a second at some places, he messed up a lot of good races last year

[NormP]

So you are hoping that the tours fall so that you can do the same thing you can do now (watch your local drivers race for local money)? Without the 80+ $10k+ to win shows that the series bring in there would be considerably fewer drivers making a living racing. Before you say the races would still happen, maybe some -- but most of the races are at tracks that race SLM all season and don't ever pay more than $3-$4k to win because there is no guarrantee of who will show up. Without the LOLMDS and WoO there are significantly fewer big money shows, and with fewer big money shows there will be fewer big time drivers and others out there racing.

Thanks.

You do realize WoO and Lucas are not 50 year old institutions, right? There is a whole lot more to dirt racing than just those two series. Here's how it worked, the series came in and sanctioned the big races like the N/S, DTWC, Topless, etc., after they were well established races. Those races and many more didn't happen because of the series. They were here before either tour.

I'm not one of these guys with stars in his eyes that thinks the race isn't worth seeing if it isn't sanctioned by Lucas or the outlaws.

I don't have any problem at all attending a $3000 race at the local track. You're missing a lot limiting yourself to going to races only when the "stars" show up.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

You do realize WoO and Lucas are not 50 year old institutions, right? There is a whole lot more to dirt racing than just those two series. Here's how it worked, the series came in and sanctioned the big races like the N/S, DTWC, Topless, etc., after they were well established races. Those races and many more didn't happen because of the series. They were here before either tour.

I'm not one of these guys with stars in his eyes that thinks the race isn't worth seeing if it isn't sanctioned by Lucas or the outlaws.

I don't have any problem at all attending a $3000 race at the local track. You're missing a lot limiting yourself to going to races only when the "stars" show up.

Nail on the head! In some cases, the series involvement actually decreased purses.

[W2Racing09]

You do realize WoO and Lucas are not 50 year old institutions, right? There is a whole lot more to dirt racing than just those two series. Here's how it worked, the series came in and sanctioned the big races like the N/S, DTWC, Topless, etc., after they were well established races. Those races and many more didn't happen because of the series. They were here before either tour.

I'm not one of these guys with stars in his eyes that thinks the race isn't worth seeing if it isn't sanctioned by Lucas or the outlaws.

I don't have any problem at all attending a $3000 race at the local track. You're missing a lot limiting yourself to going to races only when the "stars" show up.

As you'll see in my initial post I wasn't necessarily talking about the BIG races, I'm talking about the quantity of $10k+ races. Although, I would be surprised if all of the BIG races still occurred if series' didn't exist. A lot of the tracks hosting $10k to win shows on the LOLMDS and WoO schedule wouldn't host any high paying races at all without the guarantee of the touring series drivers being in attendance.

Also, where did I say I don't attend $3k to win shows? I went to 48 races last year and only about 15 of them were National Tour shows. With all of the races I've attended in my area over the past several years I've seen quite a few good ones, but 10 times out of 10 I will drive 200 miles to see a National Tour over going to a local show 20 miles away, but that does not mean I don't go to local shows at all.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Chris Thomason]

>50k/yr = loser? D@m... guess I better get signed up

[W2Racing09]

Jeff:

This is America and nothing is preventing you from buying a track or starting a series. Go ahead and pay 10k to start 20k to win and 5k tow money ... you think it will work so go ahead and put your money where your mouth is

Which post of mine is this in response to? It does not really make much sense in response to any of my posts.


Thanks,
Jeff.

[a25rjr]

That's my biggest complaint, they need to somehow put a stop to that crap.

X 3!!!....Im ok with it if they have a flat tire.

[plunks7]

No Prov. at all. I don't care if they run the series or not. If you can't beat a local, its time to park it for the night. To many prov. for guys that think their better than some locals. Surprise, surprise, surprise some locals are much better than the back half of any series. RACE YOUR WAY IN!!!!!!!!!
A great example, Jill George never came close to even winning or qualifying. But because she was at every WOO race she got a provisional. Who on here held their breath every time she hit the track????????? How many other drivers deserved to be in the race she was in and not her? JMHO

[SHOESTRING TRVLR]

Agreed plunks. Race your way in! No provisionals. Gone are the days of the locals vs the touring stars when they come to town. Need to get back to drivers who actually want to race, instead of whining all the time.

[fryefan]

The drivers,and team owners that support the series should get a provisional, they spend the time and money to put a show on for us. The series limits the number of them that takes away from the field to just two, emergency provisionals do not effect non series racers. Anyone bitching they did not make the field because a regular used a provi should work a little harder to get one of the other 22 places.

Agreed. They spend a lot of time, money, and effort supporting the series.

[fryefan]

Like it or not, the Series MUST/HAVE to take care of their touring drivers FIRST.

Lets just say they capped the number of provisionals, and come June a Francis or Pearson or even Bloomer run out and drop off the tour. That is the last thing the series wants. So while it may seem moronic to let certain drivers use so many, they need to in exchange for drivers committing to the tour.

Agreed. It is a payoff for following the whole tour.

[hucktyson]

It's not pee wee football , there should not be participation trophies at the highest level of the sport. The requirement of timing in the top 50% or wrecking in qualifying shouldn't be onerous for a true national talent. Not everyone belongs on a national tour. There are some
Really fast guys from the western PA area , Norris, Miley , Lake , Feree , Barbra etc etc. And none of them are on tour. These are guys who have dominate Victorys in 3,5,7,10k to win races AND they are extremely competitive against Traveling pros yet none of them are on tour. The provisonal system should not allow a borderline top 10 weekly show guy run every feature on a national tour without coming even close to qualifying for it. This is not a knock on anyone. The touring pros are stupid fast and it's next to impossible for a limited dollar local guy to compete against that. You don't learn from getting lapped every 8 laps anymore than I would learn fighting Jon Jones for 6 seconds until he landed the first strike and knocked me out or challenging Jacare To a no gi jujitsu match... you have to crawl before you can walk and a national tour isn't the place to learn to crawl.

[W2Racing09]

It's not pee wee football , there should not be participation trophies at the highest level of the sport. The requirement of timing in the top 50% or wrecking in qualifying shouldn't be onerous for a true national talent. Not everyone belongs on a national tour. There are some
Really fast guys from the western PA area , Norris, Miley , Lake , Feree , Barbra etc etc. And none of them are on tour. These are guys who have dominate Victorys in 3,5,7,10k to win races AND they are extremely competitive against Traveling pros yet none of them are on tour. The provisonal system should not allow a borderline top 10 weekly show guy run every feature on a national tour without coming even close to qualifying for it. This is not a knock on anyone. The touring pros are stupid fast and it's next to impossible for a limited dollar local guy to compete against that. You don't learn from getting lapped every 8 laps anymore than I would learn fighting Jon Jones for 6 seconds until he landed the first strike and knocked me out or challenging Jacare To a no gi jujitsu match... you have to crawl before you can walk and a national tour isn't the place to learn to crawl.

I think both series' are obviously trying to attract those rookie-level drivers. They place restrictions on the amount of LOLMDS or WoO races you can have run in a season and still be eligible for the the ROY - this restriction is probably meant to discourage the Regional guys from jumping up and cleaning up the WoO ROY chase. In addition they pay good money out to those who are running for ROY to make it financially possible to compete on the series even when you are not really competitive. It works too, look at Tyler Erb -- a lot thought he had no business being on tour last year and now he is looking to be a possible outside shot at a top 5 points finish or maybe better in the WoO, and if he keeps running like he is he will bring home at least a couple wins this season.

The series will never stop offering provisionals, it is doing exactly what it is supposed to (guaranteeing that certain drivers will be in attendance at the races you schedule with whichever sanction). EPJ, Francis, and others might be struggling on the LOLMDS, but LOLMDS and their tracks want to be able to say that those recognizable drivers will be at their events. Without those guarantees I'm sure Francis would already have dropped off the series, and I'm sure there are a few others who wouldn't be too far behind.

[Crash101]

How fun could it be for the leaders to lap him 3 laps in, and on certain nights with a lot of cautions I swear he gets lapped 10 times. It has to be maddening for them to be in a tight battle and here he is all over the place in front of them. More power to you if you can get free rides in to crown jewels, but he has to go to every race and basically watch everyone else and pray they get in. He had talent in the crates but his super program lacks serious speed.

[TBSprintFan]

No, I just think some on here have a brain between their ears and realize the economics of high level DLM racing/tours.

Thanks,
Jeff.

What's with the smart a$$ comment about having a brain between their ears, I've been around dirt racing for 40+ years and know my fair share regarding it. Did you even read the full section re: provisionals that the WoO Sprints (which is the highest level dirt racing tour by attendance) use and how it is done? Since you think you are so fuching smart, explain why this would not work for late models? How many fans do you think are going to these races now to see Colton Flinner, and Steve Francis (he is not the draw to fans like he was before)?

[hucktyson]

This Jeff dude is such a typical leftist. My response about him buying a track and jacking up purses was clearly directed towards the above comment . There has been 1 car in touring series history that has ever used even close to that many provisionals. It's not that the dude times well and just misses transfers, he times 1.2 seconds off or more runs dead last in the heat dead last in the feature and still gets a free pass to get in the leaders was every 7 laps . No Steve Francis is no where near what I described. I watched every night at east bay and Francis was competitive. No one buys tickets to Lucas shows to watch guys frump around the back. Clearly that is lost on all the liberals here.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I must say, I'm fascinated, amazed, at how people can turn anything into some political BS. You do realize huck, some people who even voted for Trump, agree with Lucas or WoO offering these provisionals?

Not everything has to turn political when you are out of intelligent responses, or insults on what you assume someone makes.

I understand why they have upteen provisionals, but I don't agree with them. Roy Mitchell and Colton Flinner are the prime examples of why I don't agree with them. But the series has to take care of it's followers too. But I'd limit the provisionals to say 6-10, with the stipulation that you have to be within 1.5 seconds of quick time, and/or have been caught up in a wreck, accident on the way to track, flat tire, whatever.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Thanks chubb n bloomer fan, changed the settings on my account and it worked.You're welcome. Randle Chupp is why I chose it, but I like Chub too.

[W2Racing09]

What's with the smart a$$ comment about having a brain between their ears, I've been around dirt racing for 40+ years and know my fair share regarding it. Did you even read the full section re: provisionals that the WoO Sprints (which is the highest level dirt racing tour by attendance) use and how it is done? Since you think you are so fuching smart, explain why this would not work for late models? How many fans do you think are going to these races now to see Colton Flinner, and Steve Francis (he is not the draw to fans like he was before)?

The competition around the country in the SLM division is significantly higher than the competition in the Sprint division. If the Sprints are not in CA, IA, PA or the surrounding area then the field is filled with 360s and a few low end 410 cars unless someone like James McFadden, or Brian Brown is following a whole leg of the series. Even if these fields were filled with well funded 410 operations the WoO Sprint drivers have crazy budgets beyond most anything in the SLM division (look at Shane Stewart who finished 6th in points on the WoO Sprints, his counterpart on the LOLMDS? Dennis Erb. Which driver do you think can afford more DNQ's in a season?).

Furthermore there is only one National 410 series in the country (so imagine an LM series that featured the best from both the WoO and the LOLMDS: Last years roster would of looked something like Bloomquist, Davenport, McCreadie, Sheppard, O'Neal, Erb, Richards, Clanton, Eckert and Overton -- I don't think they would use many provisionals). Supporting two series means the top shelf talent is split up, and as a result you are filling your ranks with guys who wouldn't make that top 10 list. If there are not enough guys at the next rung down (Regional level talent) then you are having to fill from the next rung after that (Local level talent).

Local and even Regional talent is going to be competing with guys who are equal or possibly better than they are at each event (for instance, someone like Frank Heckenast would be a top regional guy in IL, and when he has to race against people in the same position as him but in other regions IE: Ferguson, or Stovall he is not a shoe in to qualify for the show over them)

Those Regional and Local level guys are the people who can least afford to travel all over the country and not be guaranteed money. They would be dropping off the tour left and right when they would miss strings of 5 or 6 shows. A lot of tracks need the guarantee that the WoO is going to bring 13-14 cars to the shows with them -- if it were just 5 or 6 there would have been shows for both series with significantly less than a full field of cars. Economically it is really a requirement for the series to bring with it at least 10 cars. Without offering a significant amount of provisionals you wouldn't see close to 10 cars following each tour.

The smartass comment was in response to your smartass comment assuming everyone who understands the reason for provisionals is a Liberal who wants participation trophies and equal pay throughout the field. That isn't the case, and ideally provisionals wouldn't be needed. But there are not 24 top flight operations interested in touring around the country with the National tours and until that happens you will need up and coming or lower budget teams and those teams need provisionals or they won't be there.

[W2Racing09]

This Jeff dude is such a typical leftist. My response about him buying a track and jacking up purses was clearly directed towards the above comment . There has been 1 car in touring series history that has ever used even close to that many provisionals. It's not that the dude times well and just misses transfers, he times 1.2 seconds off or more runs dead last in the heat dead last in the feature and still gets a free pass to get in the leaders was every 7 laps . No Steve Francis is no where near what I described. I watched every night at east bay and Francis was competitive. No one buys tickets to Lucas shows to watch guys frump around the back. Clearly that is lost on all the liberals here.

As Chupp and Bloomer fan said, there is nothing about politics, participation trophies or anything else. Colton Flinner is at a different level than anything before as you said. If you were talking about a rule that restricted the provisionals at 8 or 12 or something like that then that is fine, but 2 in the first half of the year and 2 in the second half? Half of the LOLMDS would be out of provisionals by now, and I'm sure half of the WoO would be out by the time April ends. Francis was competitive as you said, but Francis would be out of provisionals by the time he left Golden Isles, along with Erb. Several others would now be out of provisionals following the week at Eastbay, and Ocala. Keep in mind they would have another 20 or so races to go before they could use another Provisional, and then they would only get 2 which would have to cover them through the toughest stretch of big money, huge field shows in the business on the LOLMDS. How many of those guys are going to stick it out? Flinner isn't drawing fans, no. But Francis, Erb, EPJ and Lanigan? They sure as hell are.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Highside Hustler25]

When the regional racer gets fed up with not making the show so some touring guy who is obviously a lot slower gets a free pass? Then you'll have a 12 car Lucas Oil show with 2 heats, no B Main and a feature. I'm sure they'll still want their 25-30 dollars at the gate. That should go over quite well with the die hard race fan:rolleyes:

I am not saying to do away with provisionals. Just limit them.

[W2Racing09]

When the regional racer gets fed up with not making the show so some touring guy who is obviously a lot slower gets a free pass? Then you'll have a 12 car Lucas Oil show with 2 heats, no B Main and a feature. I'm sure they'll still want their 25-30 dollars at the gate. That should go over quite well with the die hard race fan:rolleyes:

I am not saying to do away with provisionals. Just limit them.

This has been going on for years and car counts have not really gotten worse because of it so I don't think this is much of an issue. Its not like the guys using provisionals are bumping people out of the race on a regular basis. Drivers are told how many cars they are taking from each heat, and from each B-Main. provisionals are added to the end after all is said and done. If they are upset that they don't get a provisional and a tour guy does then they should load up their car and put in the work of following the series around the country. Otherwise, why bother following a tour? There would be no benefit really.

[Highside Hustler25]

This has been going on for years and car counts have not really gotten worse because of it so I don't think this is much of an issue. Its not like the guys using provisionals are bumping people out of the race on a regular basis. Drivers are told how many cars they are taking from each heat, and from each B-Main. provisionals are added to the end after all is said and done. If they are upset that they don't get a provisional and a tour guy does then they should load up their car and put in the work of following the series around the country. Otherwise, why bother following a tour? There would be no benefit really.

I can sort of agree with you're assessment Jeff, but if you eliminated 4 provisionals, that could be 4 guys that essentially raced there way in.

[W2Racing09]

I can sort of agree with you're assessment Jeff, but if you eliminated 4 provisionals, that could be 4 guys that essentially raced there way in.

Yeah, I think it applies more to big races and stuff but I can see that point of view too. For the regular $10k shows I'm sure the LOLMDS just prefers all their guys to qualify so they don't have to start 28 cars or whatever. I can see it more for like the DTWC when you miss qualifying by one spot and then Flinner or Francis gets a provisional after finishing 9th in the same B-Main as you or something. But like I said there has to be a benefit to the tour, and without provisionals I don't know what it would be.

Thanks,
Jeff.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Didn't Flinner use a provisional every event last year

[Josh Bayko]

Didn't Flinner use a provisional every event last year

On a different board, somebody did the math. He made 3 Lucas races on merit in 2016.

[Bubstr]

Now I am confused. Liberal / conservative. Liberal wants change, but not in this case, they want to conserve. The conservative wants to conserve but in this case wants change. I think it's like politics, They want what they want and trow labels around as they wish. Does the party tell you when to conserve and when to want change? The constant I do see is someone saying, "your not on my side here is a label that says your stupid. Of course when you give that label, it says you are stupid. Even defending either position, says you can't think for yourself.

Provisional is a good and bad thing. First, if there was no series tours there would not be LM racing. WOO, LOLM UMP and regional series are what keeps LM racing alive. There just aren't enough Late Models to support weekly racing anymore, in most areas. The tours give those guys a place to race if they are good enough. The tours sell a show to the local track. They promise to produce most of the car count with quality drivers. To keep these quality drivers, they offer incentives and provisional is one of these. It's good for the Tour. It's good for the track, but it's not so good for the regional racers trying to race into a show. The bottom line as to how many provisional are given, will be determined by car count. If the field drops off to 30 or under, you can bet it's because the reward to the regional driver is not worth what is spent to participate. For us fans, it is frustrating to see our regonal driver that may be faster than one of the touring guys, get shut out of a race due to a provisional. All I can say, is be glad the touring group came to town and gave the local driver the chance. Some day the tours will have 80% of the field locked in with franchised cars. The local guy will have to buy a franchise to race, but there will be very few of the local guys. Something like building a Sprint Cup car and going to Daytona this week.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Now I am confused. Liberal / conservative. Liberal wants change, but not in this case, they want to conserve. The conservative wants to conserve but in this case wants change. I think it's like politics, They want what they want and trow labels around as they wish. Does the party tell you when to conserve and when to want change? The constant I do see is someone saying, "your not on my side here is a label that says your stupid. Of course when you give that label, it says you are stupid. Even defending either position, says you can't think for yourself.

Provisional is a good and bad thing. First, if there was no series tours there would not be LM racing. WOO, LOLM UMP and regional series are what keeps LM racing alive. There just aren't enough Late Models to support weekly racing anymore, in most areas. The tours give those guys a place to race if they are good enough. The tours sell a show to the local track. They promise to produce most of the car count with quality drivers. To keep these quality drivers, they offer incentives and provisional is one of these. It's good for the Tour. It's good for the track, but it's not so good for the regional racers trying to race into a show. The bottom line as to how many provisional are given, will be determined by car count. If the field drops off to 30 or under, you can bet it's because the reward to the regional driver is not worth what is spent to participate. For us fans, it is frustrating to see our regonal driver that may be faster than one of the touring guys, get shut out of a race due to a provisional. All I can say, is be glad the touring group came to town and gave the local driver the chance. Some day the tours will have 80% of the field locked in with franchised cars. The local guy will have to buy a franchise to race, but there will be very few of the local guys. Something like building a Sprint Cup car and going to Daytona this week.The first part of your post, spot on. Think for yourself, leave the sorely overused labels out.

Second part, I agree with and God I hope it doesn't turn into NASCRAP.