Belleville High Banks TOO FAST

[grader47]

what's a track supposed to do when talking to various racing series about scheduling an event their drivers tell them they won't go cause it's too fast? Changing the track isn't an option.

[bonehead]

Aside from shortening the track a little I dont see any option...... A couple 1/2 miles hear in Michigan have shortened their tracks recently to gain car counts and fans.....

[brsteg]

what's a track supposed to do when talking to various racing series about scheduling an event their drivers tell them they won't go cause it's too fast? Changing the track isn't an option.

You add restrictor plates, obviously.

[SLIDING SIDEWAYS]

what's a track supposed to do when talking to various racing series about scheduling an event their drivers tell them they won't go cause it's too fast? Changing the track isn't an option.

You find someone with bigger balls and up the pay!

[zach51]

Drivers don't want to run it, and fans don't want to see anybody killed. They lost a high profile driver there last year. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to make it more safe if they want to continue running.

[WisWildManFan]

Late models seem to concern themselves with safety much more than the open wheel ranks. I mean when u have been afraid to add a starter to save 50lbs obviously they aren't concerned in beefing up cages or adding a plate to the top of them.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Drivers don't want to run it, and fans don't want to see anybody killed. They lost a high profile driver there last year. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to make it more safe if they want to continue running.

What sort of inherent hazards are present?

[KAOS]

I think more drivers won't run Belleville because of the stress it puts on the motor and equipment. They actually have a 1/4 mile track on the inside of it. Belleville is what it is if you change the track then you change everything that it was. It is kind of like the NASCAR Bristol debacle they made Bristol into this beating and banging temper flaring cage match and then change it to a half mile version of Michigan. Also for those who know nothing of Belleville it is like Eldora if Eldora had Balls

[zach51]

Yeah I mean there is nothing inherent other than the fact you are not going to be able to protect a racer from himself, and nobody wants to see a death at the racetrack. I suppose you can keep calling it the "midget nationals" with 18-20 cars, whereas the chili bowl gets 350. Its a fast, fast racetrack, and when something goes wrong it usually goes way wrong. Midgets and LM's are two completely different discussions.

[MEE]

Changing the track isn't an option.[/QUOTE]



How is it not an option?

If they can't shorten it why not put inside wall up and add dirt to the bottom of track.

[LeafMaster41]

what's a track supposed to do when talking to various racing series about scheduling an event their drivers tell them they won't go cause it's too fast? Changing the track isn't an option.

Belleville isn't just fast, it's deadly. I've never been there, but it has that reputation and that's where BC was fatally injured last year, so... I wouldn't take banking out or do restrictor plates, probably shorten it or widen the surface or both, but like I said I've only ever seen clips from there. It's definitely no place I'd go in a midget or anything open wheel.

[b1eagle]

What are the lap times?Wythe is a big half mile and they run 15 sec laps

[intel8]

Belleville is basically a high banked circle. I remember Birky commenting on how fast it was and hard on motors.

[billetbirdcage]

What are the lap times?Wythe is a big half mile and they run 15 sec laps

16.30's is or was pretty common in a LM. However Belleville is actually larger then a half mile and closer to a 5/8 then a half. Eldora will fit in the infield of Belleville as it's about 300 feet longer. It's still short of a 5/8 and more like a 9/16th to be truthful. Speeds don't really drop much in the corners maybe 5 MPH as the track is pretty round so you basically maintaining the same speed all the way around the track.

If you call it a 9/16th that's an 124.3 average MPH
for a 5/8 it's 138 average MPH

WoO sprints did least a 14.258 way back when and that is 142.0 MPH at a 9/16th

Wythe would likely have a higher actual top speed because of the long straights but corner speed would be down some.

[billetbirdcage]

Late models seem to concern themselves with safety much more than the open wheel ranks. I mean when u have been afraid to add a starter to save 50lbs obviously they aren't concerned in beefing up cages or adding a plate to the top of them.

Not a sprint car guy, but the issue with the starters wasn't the starter itself but the battery. Do you want to sit on top of a battery (didn't have dry cells back them at the time) on a car that was a matter of when you get upside down not when.

[Clayton_Wetter]

It's really an awesome race track. Regardless of the issues.

[dirtcrazy4u]

First. Who said they don't want to race there ? Eldora is fast, really fast. Anyone on here that thinks because BC lost his life there that no one wants to race there anymore. I think you would be wrong. It was and is a part of open wheel racing that can not be avoided. Yes there called open wheel, they should also be called open (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)pit cars. Everytime a driver straps into one of these machines it doesn't matter if your racing on a 1/4 mile to a large fast 1/2

[CIRF]

I suppose you can keep calling it the "midget nationals" with 18-20 cars, whereas the chili bowl gets 350.Actually last January it was 365.

I've attended the High Banks for The Belleville Midget Nationals every year since 2012 and there have been around 35 cars there for the past 3 years. A significant bearing on Belleville car count is not nearly as much due to where it's run but rather the fact that for the vast majority of midget teams it's a 600-800 mile pull in the meat of their season. It's a USAC National event and the USAC teams will make the trip but many of the Badger, POWERi and ARDC guys won't and you can't really blame them.


Not a sprint car guy, but the issue with the starters wasn't the starter itself but the battery. Do you want to sit on top of a battery (didn't have dry cells back them at the time) on a car that was a matter of when you get upside down not when.You are partially correct, billet. If starters are mandated on midgets and sprint cars you not only have the starter but also, as you pointed out, an on board battery in addition to a clutching system system integrated into the drive train. There is a lot more to it than just mounting a starter.




The Chili Bowl is unsanctioned and has no weight rules or cage tubing thickness rules but all the midget sanctions have minimum cage tubing thickness, and it's significant. I was at Belleville last August and if a midget takes a direct hit to the cage from another car travelling at race speeds like BC's car did at Belleville on a 1/4 mile track the result would probably be the similar. It's safe to say that if a dirt late model at Eldora took a direct hit from another late model in the cage directly above the driver area at race speeds there would be serious injury or worse.

The passion these drivers have for what they do overrides the danger they all know is present every time they strap in. Who am I to question them. To watch what some of these drivers do with racecars is literally incredible and every once in a while things are going to go badly.

[kidrock]

Very well said CIRF

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Very well said CIRFHe should literally write pieces for a racing paper/website. Very good always

[chupp n bloomer fan]

I think it's a combination of speed, equipment abuse, and just seeing someone as popular as BC die.

Then again, there's a few tracks with that reputation, or geographically screwed.

1.)Tazewell
2.)Virginia Motor Speedway

Ones I know of for sure.

[kidrock]

He should literally write pieces for a racing paper/website. Very good always

I agree, I think he would do a very good job.

[LeafMaster41]

You are partially correct, billet. If starters are mandated on midgets and sprint cars you not only have the starter but also, as you pointed out, an on board battery in addition to a clutching system system integrated into the drive train. There is a lot more to it than just mounting a starter.

Actually, that's only partially true. U don't have to have a clutch or transmission to use a starter. The California spec sprints mandate starters and batteries w/o trans or clutch. They push them to a start-up area, edge of the track sometimes, lock in the rear and push the starter button. It's strong enough to push the car forward and fire it off w/o push vehicle. So just a starter/battery is all that's required.

This part isn't directed at you CIRF, but I'm tired of seeing young men dead and paralyzed needlessly. The problem is the traditionalists who've grown too accustomed to death and severe injury and are not willing to make changes. They'd rather mourn a man's death and make a tribute video for youtube than fix safety issues. Personally, I'd trade every unnecessarily deadly track out there or silly light weight part just to get one of them back. I don't like seeing talent sacrificed needlessly for people's pleasure and then calling it, "tradition". We aren't curing disease or freeing oppressed peoples from tyranny, it's just passionate entertainment.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

Actually, that's only partially true. U don't have to have a clutch or transmission to use a starter. The California spec sprints mandate starters and batteries w/o trans or clutch. They push them to a start-up area, edge of the track sometimes, lock in the rear and push the starter button. It's strong enough to push the car forward and fire it off w/o push vehicle. So just a starter/battery is all that's required.

This part isn't directed at you CIRF, but I'm tired of seeing young men dead and paralyzed needlessly. The problem is the traditionalists who've grown too accustomed to death and severe injury and are not willing to make changes. They'd rather mourn a man's death and make a tribute video for youtube than fix safety issues. Personally, I'd trade every unnecessarily deadly track out there or silly light weight part just to get one of them back. I don't like seeing talent sacrificed needlessly for people's pleasure and then calling it, "tradition". We aren't curing disease or freeing oppressed peoples from tyranny, it's just passionate entertainment.Good post 41. Well said.

[jwel]

I am with you 41. Best post I have read in a long time.

[BerckFan]

I agree that it's not that racers don't want to race there. I'm talking specifically late models here. The problem is the purse. Hard to justify putting a $30-$50k motor out there for $2500 to win. Especially when the motor is going to have to be freshened (or should be) after leaving. Belleville has a great history, however the racing in the lm class is poor. I've been there probably 8 times, and honestly I could have quit going after the first time. The speed is awesome, but for me it's not about the speed. They string out really quick and their is a huge separation between the have and have nots. When Lucas was there years ago, the show was pretty good, but for a regional series like mlra or mars paying $2500 to win makes zero sense. jmo though ;)

[cmmg42]

I think the racing at Belleville sucks, but it's awesome watching hi powered latemodels go in the corner and not let off. I've been to Eldora and the latemodels absolutely put on a great show!

[3 wide]

Well tazwell is a third mile track record is 10.8 they have trouble drawing a large field of cars but they usually have a full field Lucas and world of outlaws both run their this year and on top of that it has new clay on it.

[powerslide]

Cost too much now days to run that style of track. They are reopening a half mile in my hometown and its "Historic" but i'm not going to race unless they shorten it. The cost to run big tracks is just to great on the motors, and when you wreck you destroy a car. Risk vs Reward some look at it different but budget guys have to weigh it all out.

[zyoung25]

Well tazwell is a third mile track record is 10.8 they have trouble drawing a large field of cars but they usually have a full field Lucas and world of outlaws both run their this year and on top of that it has new clay on it.

They do get full fields, but the series' brings over half of those cars with them. The series brings 10-14 guys that are committed to run the whole deal. They do good to get another 8 or 10 brave home staters that want to try it. Marlar is one of those brave souls that seems to show up at both of these shows. I highly doubt if the Taz put on a unsanctioned 10k show, many of these tour followers would come. Most of those guys do not like that place cuz it's so hard on stuff.

[LateModel B23]

Cost too much now days to run that style of track. They are reopening a half mile in my hometown and its "Historic" but i'm not going to race unless they shorten it. The cost to run big tracks is just to great on the motors, and when you wreck you destroy a car. Risk vs Reward some look at it different but budget guys have to weigh it all out.


Is that the old track in town in Muskogee?

[zach51]

Is that the old track in town in Muskogee?

Yeah I'm sure that's the one he is referring to. It was the fairgrounds track. Huge. Flat. I saw a MARS race there 5 years ago or so and I think Will Vaught won both nights, but the racing wasn't very good. Just too big. It was reopened as "Thunderbird" a few years back then closed again, now opening again. The old Outlaw Motor Speedway track was one of the nicest places around but can never overcome seemingly perpetual incompetence in the management.

[3 wide]

Well they got a 10k Ray cook race later in the summer at tazwell will see what it draws also they draw a tremendous crowd in a small town area just goes to show great racing draws big crowds that is what I keep saying better work your race track put on a show and run on time.

[powerslide]

Is that the old track in town in Muskogee?

Yeah they are dumping a good amount of money into it this time it seems. They are ordering LED lighting and doing a lot of work around the place. Hope it works out for them. Just can't see it lasting as a half mile. OKC car count was awesome when they had the 3/8 inside of the half mile. Cars just go so much faster now days.

[JimBo]

Muskogee is a great historic track but the fact is the cars are to fast these days to put on a good show there. I first attended a race there back in the late 60's with my Dad when most Late Models were 55-57 Chevys. I also have been to most all of the MARS races there. The track is flat, narrow and just does not promote good racing with today's cars. I hope they shorten it to 3/8.

[RCJ]

I timed Moyer and Fry at 19.38 on a locked down track in the early 90s.A couple of years ago I TIMED Moyer and Stoval at 19.28 in the rubber.Both at Muskogee.I would have thought that the gains in motors would have made a bigger difference than that.Are the cars really that much faster today?I time Jeremy Payne at a faster time on a heavy track,with no tire checking.

[LeafMaster41]

I timed Moyer and Fry at 19.38 on a locked down track in the early 90s.A couple of years ago I TIMED Moyer and Stoval at 19.28 in the rubber.Both at Muskogee.I would have thought that the gains in motors would have made a bigger difference than that.Are the cars really that much faster today?I time Jeremy Payne at a faster time on a heavy track,with no tire checking.
Some will argue that the new cars are faster in the, "Dry Slick" to me they are just uglier and more expensive to make go as fast. When 4 link first became all the rage in the mid 90's the leaf cars were suppose to be dead and gone, but a friend of mine outran all the HAT regulars on 2 nights back to back at different tracks with a leaf/coil Mastersbilt. Then when the "On The Hook" setup hit big and was suppose to be unbeatable I had another friend in a traditional 4 link skin the "On The Hook" cars on multiple occasion's with a homebuilt steel block 358... I'll get blasted for saying all this, like I have many times, but its the truth. The physics don't change, only how we attempt to manipulate them. It's still 4 tires touching the ground, #2300 and the cars still work in an "X", the rest is just different degrees of alignment/misalignment and load.

[Illtsate32]

As far as weight transfer weight%, 4 link, 5th coil the more things change the more they stay the same...on the other hand I think shock technology is where extreme advancement has been made... Ive seen 3 link modifieds with a solid pull bar dust 4 link mods with 3-4 way pull bars and 5th coils...

[LeafMaster41]

As far as weight transfer weight%, 4 link, 5th coil the more things change the more they stay the same...on the other hand I think shock technology is where extreme advancement has been made... Ive seen 3 link modifieds with a solid pull bar dust 4 link mods with 3-4 way pull bars and 5th coils...

You are exactly right. Kudo's.

[westlingracing]

I ran Belleville in the 90s with a Rayburn leaf car and in the 2006-8 with a 4 bar Pierce car. And we were faster with the Rayburn according to our records. The Rayburn Leaf car was so much more stable than the 4 bar car you could relax a bit. Figuring top speed by gear and tire size we topped out around 140 with the leaf car and 130 with the 4bar. Never was in contention but had a 15th place finish with the Rayburn. The 3 runs with the Pierce broke motors! And on top of breaking stuff was a nervous wreck! The car was just not stable at the speeds at that place. I have ran big tracks before, Eldora, Missouri state fair, Moberly Mo., Lebanon Mo., the old Granite City Il. Track, , And back when Denver had a half mile. Even a sand covered 5/8 in Holyoke Co. And none of them Compares to Belleville! The high banking and being round is just crazy! I never forget the 1st laps there and noticed numbers written on the walls so you would know which corner you were in, if it wasn't round. Lol

[powerslide]

When I talk about going faster I'm meaning further back before late models became Camaro's with slab sided bodies and huge spoilers/noses. I watched a late model race from the 70-80's on youtube the other day and it looked like a freakin endure or pure stock race of today...

All this was really before my time really, but when they were building these large tracks the cars were much slower, a SBC wasn't even a thing. I can believe the speed from the carrying the LF days aren't that much off from the cars of today, if you have some times before the wedge cars came about I bet they have made some pretty big strides.

From what I gather the track records fell when the wedge cars came about and up until the last 5 years they held pretty strong.

As far as Muskogee goes its always been fast and if you wrecked you usually had a couple days on the frame machine or needed a new car.

[LeafMaster41]

When I talk about going faster I'm meaning further back before late models became Camaro's with slab sided bodies and huge spoilers/noses. I watched a late model race from the 70-80's on youtube the other day and it looked like a freakin endure or pure stock race of today...

All this was really before my time really, but when they were building these large tracks the cars were much slower, a SBC wasn't even a thing. I can believe the speed from the carrying the LF days aren't that much off from the cars of today, if you have some times before the wedge cars came about I bet they have made some pretty big strides.

From what I gather the track records fell when the wedge cars came about and up until the last 5 years they held pretty strong.

As far as Muskogee goes its always been fast and if you wrecked you usually had a couple days on the frame machine or needed a new car.

There was a time in between, "Carrying LF" time and Wedge cars, from 85'-98' that is referred to as the small body cars. The wedge cars, like todays cars developed so much downforce that bigger HP became essential because the cars were glued to the track. Engine costs and stupid light frames became all the rage. Titanium lower ends started showing up and the cost escalation pushed a lot of folks out of late model all together, some regions of the country have never been the same. Seeing what was happening they outlawed the wedge bodies and took away the aero, implemented a small body set of rules and the racers came back. Within a few years DLM was growing by leaps and bounds, multi-car teams sprang up and there was an entire spectrum of suspension designs being tried, it was a great time. Once Skip Arp and Joe Garrison started developing the LR shock/spring behind setup known as, "Being On The hook" the trend towards needing more HP returned but gains have leveled off, so in the last 5 years everyone has shifted more towards aero and to me that is a bad thing for your average blue collar racer. Add in sanctions that look the other way on body rules and let the nose manufacturer dictate to them what's being run every year and things can get ugly real quick for average Joe Racer. Sorry, got on my soapbox. I'm done.

[westlingracing]

Yep need to get back to the rules right after the elimination of the wedge cars. Totally agree with it!! The cars might look ugly but the racing was good, and a guy with limited funds could compete with the high $$$ guys. My first year my Rayburn was called a wide car with full wedge body. The next year the rules made us go to the ugly plastic camaro nose. Ugly but it effectively slowed the cars down. And had way more side by side racing.