Limited Late Model HP question

[LeafMaster41]

What's the average power output and cost of a good all steel, flat top limited late engine going for these days? Like what you'd see on the SELMSS(Southeastern Late Model Sportsman Series) in GA. Just curious as I'm not especially fond of crates or CT525's. Anyone running an LS based non-CT525 limited engine? I know the UMSS(traditional sprints) are allowing the LS 5.3 w/factory coil packs and an MSD controller to be run with them and it's competitive and economical too.

[a25rjr]

550-600 hp, $20-25k

[LeafMaster41]

550-600 hp, $20-25k

Thanks for the reply and info, a25rjr.

[President Clinton]

690-710 if you are running a steel one to meet series rules. Very expensive new but pretty cheap used.

[perfconn]

Your not going to see 690-710hp out of a convenital 23* head flattop piston 360ci engine even if you give $25,000. More like the one dude said 550 maybe 580 on a good one.

[King1]

I ran steel blocks in ky for years and the best all steel motor I had was a 436 pro action heads, 210 and 165 valves, scat rotating assembly and heads that flowed 310 at 700 lift. It went 639. The 362 I had which was the same everything just different bore and rotating assembly made 514. 10k put that motor together and that was using a 10051184 gm bow tie racing block. We won with both.

[fastford]

you can spend what ever you want on what ever type engine you want, dont mean your gone win a race though. i witnessed a fellow a few years back win several races in a row in the dead of summer with a flat top 350 with vortec heads against several 15000 dollar engines , i believe he had less than 4 grand in whole engine.

[a25rjr]

Our limiteds here in the South, usually are 360ci max, with a 23* spec head of various brands.

[LeafMaster41]

Thanks. All the intel and experience is very helpful.

[Lizardracing]

you can spend what ever you want on what ever type engine you want, dont mean your gone win a race though. i witnessed a fellow a few years back win several races in a row in the dead of summer with a flat top 350 with vortec heads against several 15000 dollar engines , i believe he had less than 4 grand in whole engine.

These are good points. Engine power isn't everything but it sure helps. Track and shape make a big difference I think.

Always some exceptions to every rule.

Local cat always known for big power and works at a machine shop. Wins almost all the races till he goes to special shows then he's mid pack. Why? Mostly over powered I think against more competition. The local tracks is hooked up hammer down and the other is stupid dry slick but 1/2 mile and very high banks.

Mullins is known to be overpriced....The same 10k gets you far less (maybe nothing!) than a local builder who enjoys the challenge more than the money.

[President Clinton]

Your not going to see 690-710hp out of a convenital 23* head flattop piston 360ci engine even if you give $25,000. More like the one dude said 550 maybe 580 on a good one.

I don't know where you race or who builds your motor, but call Cornett,Clements,Vic Hill or B&B out of Tennessee and ask anyone of them what kind of hp you can get out of 23* stuff. Your local backyard builder may not get that much, but you usually get what you pay for. Also I didn't say flat top , I said to meet the Southeastern Rules he stated. Thanks

[perfconn]

I don't need to call anybody.I have sold steelhead engines all over the country & I know what kind of power to expect out of them.Facts are you cannot & will not get 690-710hp out of a 360ci flattop piston 23* non RAISED RUNNER style head.Yes with dome pistons & RAISED RUNNER RHS cast iron heads 690-710 is possible.
You didn't say flattop pistons but the original poster specified them.

[President Clinton]

I don't need to call anybody.I have sold steelhead engines all over the country & I know what kind of power to expect out of them.Facts are you cannot & will not get 690-710hp out of a 360ci flattop piston 23* non RAISED RUNNER style head.Yes with dome pistons & RAISED RUNNER RHS cast iron heads 690-710 is possible.
You didn't say flattop pistons but the original poster specified them.

Yes he said flat top,but he also mentioned within Southeastern Late Model series that runs in Ga. Not trying to get in a pi**ing match. Sorry if I offended your ability in achieving horsepower, didn't mean to. But 690 hp with non raised runners @ 362" is achievable.I will even sell you one.

[perfconn]

You will never sell me a 362ci with Dart steel heads that will make 690hp because it's impossible unless the Dyno is cranked up.I didn't ride in on a load of turnips but you can believe all the engine builders you mentioned if you choose too.I know better,I've been building engines for 30 something years.Bet you won't find anybody else to agree with you either.President Clinton might buy one of your 690hp Dart motors if Hillary will loan him some money.

[LateModel B23]

Cannot be done. I see the SUPR spec head is allowed, have had several of those motors over the years. One of the better ones we had just happened to be built by PERFCONN. If memory serves correct it was 635hp on a conservative dyno. Another 360 flat top we had used some 49cc Iron Eagles with good port work and was 658 on gas, different dyno than the SUPR motor was on though.

As far as the SPCH heads that series allows, in 2015 our USMTS/USRA motor was a 415 with the SPCH heads. It dyno'd at 637 on alk, only 2hp more than the 360ci SUPR spec, so those heads with 55 more ci only gained 2hp.

This week we will be at the dyno with our 2 modified motors for this season, both are 400 ci. One has the SPCH heads the other has a set of Dart Pro1 230's. They are both roller cam motors and right at 14.5:1 compression. I will be happy to post the numbers for both of them and will say right now that neither is going to be close to 700hp.

[perfconn]

Right on Bill.Some of these dudes will believe anything they are told.Tony Barker came to me once and asked what he could do about these engine builders making all these fabulous hp claims about their SUPR spec engines.I told him if they were stupid enough to believe them then there was nothing he could do except outrun them.

[King1]

Jason at vic hill's educated me on that outrageous hp#. I took my motor to him to be dyno'd and the 6t from West Virginia was on the dyno. It's real # was not all that fabulous (neither was mine) but when you calculate conditions at sea level which is what they call "calculated horse power" then it made the #'s that are generally the topic of discussion. Like I said above my 436 all steel motor made 639 it's true # was 574. Cropper was always the world's worst for throwing out 900 ponies and only giving you 720. I think that people who race check books and get in male reproductive organ measuring contests like to see those numbers, people who are educated and know about the biz are more concerned about drivability. My motor from clements when it was new made 867, I can assure you it did not feel like 867. 445 sb2.2

[President Clinton]

I don't own a dyno, but I have owned Steel and Aluminum engines from top builders. All I can go by is their reputation???? So I guess I am politely saying I am done with this. I will continue to spend my money on the paperwork they provide me not internet advice. Thanks for trying to help me,

[let-r-eat]

There are tons of 550hp, claimed 800hp engines out there. Tons of em.

[swingarm4life]

Ours from Vic Hill made 565

[Bubstr]

Horsepower can peak at a certain RPM, but over all how long are you in that RPM. It's the average of where in the RPM range that you run, that says good power or not. Throw peak HP numbers out and look at power curve or profile. Usable horsepower. That big HP number means Zip. Think about how much of the time on track, that you are on the go pedal at that magic RPM number. Not much of the time your racing.

This is why the spread bore engines are popular. Big cubic inches, capable of 1000 hp, detuned to make a flatter power curve. Results are more HP over more RPM and not peaky to break traction.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Even "reputable" engine builders juice their dyno numbers. The numbers on here, discussed by some, are flat out impossible and do not follow laws of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics.

[billetbirdcage]

Customer of mine bought a 800 lap engine from a big name racer that was originally built new and just freshened by the well known big name engine builder and now only had dyno time on it. He pretty much dealt with the engine builder and got all the specs, numbers, and etc and only talked to the racer to agree on price as the engine was still at the engine builders. He bought everything: carb, headers, and etc used during dynoing besides the dry sump system. The engine was supposedly making 890HP.

Fast forward 3 days when the engine was shipped from the engine builder to my customer who just happens to be friends with Ricky Stenhouse so the engine was never un-crated and sent over to Ricky SR and he dyno'ed it.

The engine never broke 800HP. Now remember nothing needed to be changed as it was exactly how it was dyno'ed besides a little jetting do to differences in air quality due to different weather conditions between the 2 places and times. Now the engine was a nice piece and had really good parts in it as was told but was not all that drivable and certainly didn't make the power even taking into dyno variations.

[RCJ]

When talking hp numbers you should know the SAE calibration numbers,I believe there are 3.This takes the raw numbers and converts it to a standard sea level ,baro ,and temp.I've had motors from 4 different builders and with the right SAE they all matched what they said.My imca spec motors made 580,took the same motor with no regard for rules(still 360 flat top) made 690.

[LeafMaster41]

It was the same way when I ran karts back in the day, builders claiming things. I think this is what led to a certain crate series outlawing blueprinting because some crook was telling people he could get them 100+ more horsepower and they believed him and spent stupid money for nothing. Then the series felt they needed to save people from spending money(kinda liberal way of thinking if you ask me). I say let dopes be dopes. Anyway the, 550-600 was pretty much what i was thinking was right, just curious as to what others were seeing. Thanks.

[perfconn]

On the Stutska Dyno that I use there are two factors that you can change to make the Dyno say anything you want.One is the inertia factor and the other is the correction factor that the weather station says to use.The correction factor takes into account the ambient air temperature and the barometric pressure.If you have dynoed hundreds of engines you know what to expect out of them but you can still get surprised sometimes.Dynoed an sb2.2 last week with three different carburetors.To my surprise one of the carburetors(Taco) was 30hp better than the other two & they were not bad.I said all that to say,I don't race dynos but they are useful tools as long as they are used properly.Let me also say that I talked to John Lafond at B&B about that dudes engine & John said he warned him about throwing out big numbers for sales purposes.

[a25rjr]

Even "reputable" engine builders juice their dyno numbers. The numbers on here, discussed by some, are flat out impossible and do not follow laws of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics.

Didn't you drive one of these limited lm's down here in the South?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Didn't you drive one of these limited lm's down here in the South?

No. Just wrenched on some.

[old17ford]

No. Just wrenched on some.

And a good wrench man he was . Wish he was still down here !

[swingarm4life]

He's got Mastersbuilt in his screen name, but i happen to know he still has a soft spot for them swingarm cars from indiana!

[RCJ]

One other thing that screws with numbers is how the motor is set up on the dyno.Electric water pump,header and exhaust , ventilation system (fans),air bell.How hot is the oil and cold water.A good dyno man can jack the numbers and you will never now it.

[swingarm4life]

My all time favorite dyno number response is from Byron Koury. He built us a limited engine to run Ga, Fl, and AL with. I asked him what it made on the dyno, his response was "enough". That was it, and he never cracked a smile. So if you want a no nonsense guy who doesn't sugarcoat it and who doesn't fudge the numbers, he's your guy. Builds some bada$$ engines too. We asked him what we need to turn it, he said "as much as your pocketbook can take, but I recommend around 7500-7600". lol

[old17ford]

He's got Mastersbuilt in his screen name, but i happen to know he still has a soft spot for them swingarm cars from indiana!

I think he is a little kin to CJ ! I mean that in a good way . I know he loves swingarms .

[LateModel B23]

About 10 years ago had a local guy back out on buying one of the my used motors after he saw the dyno papers on it. He felt that the numbers were just too low for the way it ran all season. We had won almost every heat, a couple of trophy dashes and finished 2 in points for the year. It was a SUPR spec that only peaked at 603 and he was convinced that there was something wrong.

[RW57]

We here the same crap about the motors we run .4 eyebrow hypers 600 Holley 425 lift cam smog heads cut to 70cc min 1.94 1.50 valves l would figure an a good day maybe 350 HP. I have about 1500$ in our motor. We race against people who pay 8 to 10 grand who their engine builder claims makes 450 HP on the dyno I call BS all I know is my junk is as fast as their high dollar motors if it blows next already have another 1500 grenade ready by the way the motor is 4 years old I have freshened it once. By the way it has stock rods with stock rod bolts with God knows how many miles on them and is not balanced .

[LeafMaster41]

My all time favorite dyno number response is from Byron Koury. He built us a limited engine to run Ga, Fl, and AL with. I asked him what it made on the dyno, his response was "enough". That was it, and he never cracked a smile. So if you want a no nonsense guy who doesn't sugarcoat it and who doesn't fudge the numbers, he's your guy. Builds some bada$$ engines too. We asked him what we need to turn it, he said "as much as your pocketbook can take, but I recommend around 7500-7600". lol

How do you get in touch with Byron Koury?

[Krooser]

FWIW... I bought a small block Mopar 383 a few years ago that came out of a WISSOTA A mod. A brand name, small town builder did the original complete build. With an obsolete Mopar 590 cam and some mildly ported W-2 heads/intake that flow just north of 300 on the intake the dyno sheet showed 575 HP @7200 RPM... now that's a number anyone can believe in.

We've come along way from what we ran 30 years ago as far as HP goes but we haven't come to 700HP+ iron engines AFAIK.

[perfconn]

700hp is entirely within reason if you use the right parts.You can't do it with convenital 23* heads like Dart Platinum and flattop pistons.If you want 700hp out of RHS raisedrunner steelheads then it is very possible.In fact you can make considerable more than 700hp but it wouldn't be a good dirt track engine because of the need for torque to get you off the corner.I sold one 360ci raised runner steelhead to a dude in Delaware that made 714hp but it didn't race worth a darn and I had to put a smaller cam in it to get it off the corner.

[Krooser]

You're right about the 23 degree heads and the driveability deal with some engines.

[President Clinton]

So y'all have went from impossible to its possible? Like I said in the beginning, by the series rules the original poster asked about 690- 700 is reachable. And as far as contacting John about my motor, you are totally confused.The motor I have is his, RHS not raised runner, meets series rules,and makes the power I stated. So before you put down another builders claims, maybe you should get your facts about the engine in question before you "assume "? By all means please contact John about the motor he has in Ga. Maybe he can give you some insight on the hp obtainable by this combo? Also ask him why it wasn't swapped to raised runner? The 15-20 hp wasn't worth it. Thanks for finally coming full circle on steel motors.

[perfconn]

You sir have a problem understanding what you read.The original poster never put a HP number on his post.He asked what was possible,you were the one who said 690-710 HP
As for your engine that you have for sale.It is the one I asked John about & no one said it was a RAISED RUNNER.That is the reason it will not make 690-710hp.If you will take that engine to Phantom Race Engine and it makes 690-710hp then we will buy it just to see what's in it.Now put up or shut up.

[President Clinton]

I never said the hp it had? I said 690-710 was achievable? What did John tell you it made? You spoke with him? It is close to 690. I never questioned your engine for sale, but why don't we dyno mine without raised runners right beside the 700+ hp raised runner one you have advertised? If mine is not close to yours, I apologize. If it is then you lose face value. I am not an engine builder and very seriously doubt I would get into an argument questioning another's integrity if I were. Doesn't seem like a very wise business move to be on social media doing that. But to each there own.

[perfconn]

I am not questioning John's integrity.He builds some fine engines,You are the one that said a standard RUNNER 23* engine would make 690-710hp.There are some very knowledgeable people on here and you can't make unreasonable claims without expecting to get called out.

[President Clinton]

I said my 23* engine has right at 690.I guess accusing someone of fudging dyno numbers isn't questioning their integrity? If you talk to John like you say why not ask him instead of get on social media and argue. I know you haven't spoken to him about me. The motor is big bore, short stroke, roller cam, everything done that will remain "in the rules" and it makes what I said on his dyno. Like I said I will come put it beside your raised runner on your dyno and one of us will be wrong. You will never gain trust and respect in business arguing with a potential customer on social media. All your idea of "calling me out" has done, is brought attention to the fact you could be wrong. If you don't want to continue acting like kids on here pm me, I will give you my phone # and gladly talk to you. Otherwise continue on.

[fastford]

i might be wrong to prez, but i would have to see those numbers myself. I have two friends with dynos , one in childersburg Al and the other in south side AL close to the old green valley speed way , if you guys want to duke it out, i will set it up...

[swingarm4life]

How do you get in touch with Byron Koury?

Byron Koury Race Engines
386-736-0784

You wont find a more straight up engine builder and cooler guy.
He's bada$$ on the limited stuff too