Where are we headed?

[Matt49]

Posting this on the tech section simply because I'll get answers from people that understand the sport.

With more rule changes all the time in the name of “saving” racers money, it seems we are back to this age-old argument of how to save late model racing from itself. And everybody has their own opinion on what changes need to be made to fix everything. If we’re talking open late models (which is obviously where the most expense is), you have to START with the cost of a competitive power plant. I see many other items brought up in discussions like shocks, tires, fuel, etc. But to even list those next to the cost of obtaining and maintaining an 800-950 HP motor is pretty ridiculous in my humble opinion.

Most of you know that I race crates and we have good stuff on our car. The ONLY thing that I simply can’t pay the bill for to go open motor racing is the motor (I should say a competitive open motor). The shocks on an open don’t cost any more than good shocks on a crate. The tires on an open cost more (because of the motor mostly) and your drivetrain cost goes way up due to wear and tear. Now I’ll stop right now and say that I am NOT saying that crate racing is the solution. Crate racing was and still is a stop gap for guys that have late model stuff and really want to run their stuff without going broke on motors and rebuilds.

So, I’ll just come out and say that, in my opinion, the open motor cost went completely out of control as soon as they started allowing the spread bore blocks. The old school late model rules for “open” or “super” late models used to say something like “a block based on a production American small block”. Some still have rules with some similar verbiage but it doesn’t really mean anything. Today’s open motors make horsepower that most tracks can’t hold past qualifying. I hear people say all the time that if you change the body rules to cut down on aero, you’ll eliminate the need for the HP. I disagree. I think if you change the rules on the engine you’ll cut down the need for all that aero to hold the thing to the track. There is obviously some chicken and egg argument here but what would be better, going back to the bodies of the early 80s and guys still having 900HP engines to qualify fast, or going back to the engines of the 80s and guys saving 10s of thousands on motors yet keep the aero package.

So what’s the solution? I don’t know. Crate racing isn’t the answer. Fans will tell you that it’s boring. I think on larger tracks that’s true but our local ¼ miles puts on some pretty good races in the crate division. Should the “open” late models as we know them today just be for national and regional series? Should we revisit the CT525 thing for a local/weekly class that could prosper and give the fans of some of the larger tracks something to go watch where the 604 crates just don’t cut the mustard? I just don’t know.

I’ll end with this on the crate classes (or any other limited class for that matter). Much of what is ruining crate racing as a whole are the places (including UMP country) that are trying to make it something other than a late model car (well…what it became) with a crate motor in it. Meaning, they are dumbing down other rules (like shocks and tires) to turn it into a glorified street stock. They do all this (as most rules do) in the name of saving racers money and it never works. Let ALL forms of late model racing have a uniform rules package on the chassis and suspension. As I said at the beginning, the BIG difference in cost is the power plants and the associated things that all that HP tears up under the car. Let’s keep that as the delimiter between the “classes” of late models and let the cars be the cars that we love.

Interested to get other opinions and thoughts on this.

[collateralDamage]

I agree 100% and ask myself those questions almost daily. Sadly, I do believe the place for an "open" or "super" late model is in the national/regional series. That's simply what it has become. It's not always just the cost of the tires, equipment and engines. It's the budget to race 40 or 70 or 100 races a year against guys that are also racing that much. That track time and testing is critical to be competitive as much as anything with all that is constantly evolving.

The crate classes offer a solution to the budget problem, so long as the rules are at least somewhat enforced. The traditional crate late model (604 engine w/tire rule) is pretty simple to tech if the series or track is even remotely proactive. But there is the issue of filling the stands when these cars are on a bigger track and it's profound the amount of times hoods aren't so much as lifted at a regular-show weekly crate race. Tech cannot be left for an individual track to enforce. Period.

I've said this before, if not for WoO and/or Lucas the modern open dirt late model would not exist, especially not on a local/weekly level. Same goes for the traditional crate late model. If there is no unified rule system and a protocol for enforcement that someone other than local track staff can maintain, the class will quickly die.

I think the question is "How do we make weekly racing exciting for the fans and reasonably affordable for the racer?"

In the region I live, there are Open Late Models, Limited (358) Late Models and Crate Late Models. Car counts are slowly declining and tracks are running up to 6 classes of cars (bad for the fans). B mods are starting to become popular, which is interesting. They are restricted to wet sump engines.

Is that a solution? This will fire the engine guys up for sure, but does the "Limited" local/weekly late model need to be a wet sump?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

I agree 100% and ask myself those questions almost daily. Sadly, I do believe the place for an "open" or "super" late model is in the national/regional series. That's simply what it has become. It's not always just the cost of the tires, equipment and engines. It's the budget to race 40 or 70 or 100 races a year against guys that are also racing that much. That track time and testing is critical to be competitive as much as anything with all that is constantly evolving.

The crate classes offer a solution to the budget problem, so long as the rules are at least somewhat enforced. The traditional crate late model (604 engine w/tire rule) is pretty simple to tech if the series or track is even remotely proactive. But there is the issue of filling the stands when these cars are on a bigger track and it's profound the amount of times hoods aren't so much as lifted at a regular-show weekly crate race. Tech cannot be left for an individual track to enforce. Period.

I've said this before, if not for WoO and/or Lucas the modern open dirt late model would not exist, especially not on a local/weekly level. Same goes for the traditional crate late model. If there is no unified rule system and a protocol for enforcement that someone other than local track staff can maintain, the class will quickly die.

I think the question is "How do we make weekly racing exciting for the fans and reasonably affordable for the racer?"

In the region I live, there are Open Late Models, Limited (358) Late Models and Crate Late Models. Car counts are slowly declining and tracks are running up to 6 classes of cars (bad for the fans). B mods are starting to become popular, which is interesting. They are restricted to wet sump engines.

Is that a solution? This will fire the engine guys up for sure, but does the "Limited" local/weekly late model need to be a wet sump?
I can't see how WoO or Lucas is maintaining local super racing. Hell, they are killing it with intended and unintended actions. The framework set up by Bob Memmer, for weekly racing, was exactly what weekly racing needed. It has all been eroded since his death. The national tours dictating what goes on in weekly super racing is precisely what is killing weekly racing. The more local the sport is, the cheaper it is.

[Basecircle]

Our area is pretty weak (almost non-existent) as far as true super lates. Steel blocks are also on the decline. We have a semi-late (stock block 358, any 23 degree iron head, flat top, with a cam lift rule. Also no adjustable shocks) that is really picking up steam as where the stock car guys are moving up to. You can put a competitive car on the track for $8-10k. Our street stocks are putting more than that into their 406+ motors. I like it because it's more budget than crates and we like to take care of our own motors. Most of the chassis are at least 5 yrs old. It's still a fairly new class though, and I'm sure it won't be long before some rich kid gets a brand new xr-1, and a Cornett built 358 along with a selection of about 37 different shocks in the trailer to ruin it. That's typically the nature of our sport. Win at any cost.

[RW57]

The class I am racing in allows full jig chassis with LR in front with 602 at 2600#. Or you can race a clip car 3 link with any hyd cam any carb at 2700# so far clip cars ha e won every race. My point is this if I had to buy my clip car new it's 15 grand car now you can find a good late model rollers for 2500$ up .I like what was said about not making every thing like a street stock Nesmiths better idea Street stocks are 30 grand race ready that's insane. I say limit the engines and shocks like some one said earlier on the jig cars he said their car counts are rising race ready car for 8 to 10 grand is great.If we don't lose the win at all cost syndrome there will not be any racing left. I got back into driving this year after 33 years away just to have some fun I don't have the funds to win at all cost.

[victorylane]

Wide Bore engines should have never been allowed. I think Clements even tried to tell the Lucas guys this but big money runs the show. Now they all have the same engine again, spending more money on it and racing for the same money as before. STUPID. I think they should put a weight penalty on them but that probably won't happen.

[collateralDamage]

I can't see how WoO or Lucas is maintaining local super racing. Hell, they are killing it with intended and unintended actions. The framework set up by Bob Memmer, for weekly racing, was exactly what weekly racing needed. It has all been eroded since his death. The national tours dictating what goes on in weekly super racing is precisely what is killing weekly racing. The more local the sport is, the cheaper it is.

Sorry, I forgot how analytical everyone on here is. Super racing, AS WE KNOW IT, would not exist.....

Geez, I realize the recent rule changes and allowances have hurt local racing. I'm simply stating that if the majority is on the same page with rules, the class will be better for everyone in the long run. For how many years have you been able to take a super late model anywhere in the country and be legal at almost any track and only have to change tires?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

Sorry, I forgot how analytical everyone on here is. Super racing, AS WE KNOW IT, would not exist.....

Geez, I realize the recent rule changes and allowances have hurt local racing. I'm simply stating that if the majority is on the same page with rules, the class will be better for everyone in the long run. For how many years have you been able to take a super late model anywhere in the country and be legal at almost any track and only have to change tires?

Since the UDTRA rules came out. Late 90s? But, that is gone now.

[let-r-eat]

There is a huge gap right now that is occurring with used chassis's. The latest and greatest late models/crates/modifieds are being turned over quickly. No one wants the used stuff because they are being built to last for less and less of a service life. 40 races is about the limit on some of this new stuff. That's a ton of money being rolled around every year between a select few with the funds.

There has to be a competitive place to run these older chassis's where they don't have to compete against something new. I don't know how the rule should be worded but something has to be done. I don't know many people who want to spend 25 or 30 grand that want it to be worth 5-10 grand after 40 races. I know people do but there is a big gap right now because people don't want to buy 40 race old stuff to compete with less than 40 race old stuff. I think allowing a NEW chassis in a crate car or limited car is foolish for everyone but the chassis builders. I think every new late model chassis sold should be for an open late model and then let it trickle down though the classes. I don't mind crate cars and understand that it took the place of the old steel block classes and poor boy late model teams that couldn't afford to keep up with these 50K + wide bore engines. It's trickled around to the other classes too. I've seen wide bore steel block stuff too. The racetrack is the "great equalizer". The right racetrack and tech can take care of this on a situational basis. The fans aren't going to watch mega dollar car win every week and stay long. They want competitive action. Local racing I observe where the winner is compared to the middle qualifiers after a long green flag run. Lapping your mid pack qualifiers is a big no no in my book. It's time for action when that happens. I like the old "points by appearance" rules. More points by appearance the farther back you start. It's too easy for these guys qualifying up front to win races. It sucks for the fans too. A car .02 slower than the fast qualifier don't have a prayer unless he's in front. Then it turns into a real race.

[let-r-eat]

The point of my post is that I've seen many fast qualifiers that can win from upfront but can't race worth a hoot in traffic or running a line different from qualifying. I think in racing there has to be a way to reward drivability and not just gross speed. Mix it up some and let the fans see some racing. I'm an old school racer and think the fast car should win the race, don't get me wrong there, but a fast car should be able to pass other cars. I'm seeing to many races these days where the winner can win the race and never pass a single car. That's BS.

[zeroracing]

The truth is there is more money in racing than ever, and more technology. Prime example of this is our local USRA b mod class, the first year our local track ran b mods I helped a guy with an almost stock motor and a chassis you could see the front frame horn was bent on. He had fun and ran top 5. Now guys are unloading new cars out of toterhomes. They are paying people to set the cars up, buying tons of parts just to try them, and the cost is out of hand for the top few.

I agree wide bore needs penalized, but also realize even in the budget classes it is out of hand. Another example is at my current weekly track street stocks are being advertised for sale in the 20-30k range used...

[Matt49]

I want to keep this about technical things we can do to save late model racing. Racing format is a completely different discussion that we could drone on about for days.
There is big money in racing and there always has been. You can't change that. You can't make a rule limiting how much somebody spends on racing. Again, I think the cars (late models) should be the same regardless of the engine. Getting away from this is what is watering down the lower crate classes. In my neck of the woods, about half of the crate cars are 2 years old or newer (many brand new cars this year) and most everybody has good stuff. Personally, I like it and we put on some pretty good racing by all accounts. Frankly, if someone wants to race old junk, late models (by almost every definition dating back to the 60s) is not what they should be racing. A guy can buy a new car every 2-3 years for under 10K. Meaning a new chassis. There's a ton of stuff on these cars that you can freshen up and move from one car to the next. Especially if you aren't changing brands all the time. Nowadays, there seems to be a widespread mentality that you need to buy a roller or turn-key car, race it for a while, sell it, and buy another roller or turn-key car. I personally don't understand that and believe that a lot of racers would save a ton money if they would learn to build a car themselves...and end up being better racers (by understanding their cars better) in the process. But anyway...I'm rambling.
You can't keep money out of racing. But I think what we can do is create rules (particularly in the engine department since that is the 900 pound (or HP) gorilla in the room). In other words, create rules where the smart money will win rather than the big money. For example, if you have rules that allow a guy to spend $50,000 on a motor but he only has 10 more HP than a guy that spent $10K, I think that would be great.
Before we even get into it, unless somebody has a shining example of it, claiming rules simply don't work. UMP modifieds are a prime example. I think if we had a rules package that allowed a guy to have something in that 650 HP range for around $15-20K and it was a rules package that was easy to enforce, we would really have something.

[let-r-eat]

Rules do cost money and someone is going to pay big $$'s to go around them. I like a 6" maximum frame height rule, drop rules, wheelbase and height rules. There is only so much you can do when you are regulating the dynamics of the car.

[rakracing]

years ago a modified class near me used 320 drysump alum head motors, they turned them 9000 rpm and where getting out of hand with price [ buy todays prices they where still cheap] , they changed rules to 358 9-1 engine with steel heads , almost 300 hp difference, you where aloud to use your 320 if you wanted but had to run a restrictor plate, point being it evened the field, when your $20,000 320 broke you built a $6000 358, if you restrict a wide bore, and possibly even a open alum engine, wouldn't that make a deal like a ct525 look like the way to go in future.

[grt74]

years ago a modified class near me used 320 drysump alum head motors, they turned them 9000 rpm and where getting out of hand with price [ buy todays prices they where still cheap] , they changed rules to 358 9-1 engine with steel heads , almost 300 hp difference, you where aloud to use your 320 if you wanted but had to run a restrictor plate, point being it evened the field, when your $20,000 320 broke you built a $6000 358, if you restrict a wide bore, and possibly even a open alum engine, wouldn't that make a deal like a ct525 look like the way to go in future.

the problem is they would let them in the engine like the crates of today, no one techs them for the most part (on the local level),i like supers because its run what you brung and the engine over powers the car (it takes alot to hook these up, which to me is a challenge) with crates there is not so much of a challenge on set up, and yes I've owned both and have driven both
if it was my decision, i would get rid of all the crates and limiteds, ill bet that over half would go back to supers (alot of them are spending plenty of money), then you could add the crate purses to to supers, there are plenty of lower classes to run if its a cost issue, hell know guys that spend 30,000 on a street stocks, if they have it they will spend it
late models should be late models and thats it, drop all the different classes, crates were a great idea but it has gotten out of hand
if you want my opinion, its all the different dam tires in the super world that drives me nuts, no need for all the different tires, soft, med, hard, and be done with it

[TRocket8]

the problem is they would let them in the engine like the crates of today, no one techs them for the most part (on the local level),i like supers because its run what you brung and the engine over powers the car (it takes alot to hook these up, which to me is a challenge) with crates there is not so much of a challenge on set up, and yes I've owned both and have driven both
if it was my decision, i would get rid of all the crates and limiteds, ill bet that over half would go back to supers (alot of them are spending plenty of money), then you could add the crate purses to to supers, there are plenty of lower classes to run if its a cost issue, hell know guys that spend 30,000 on a street stocks, if they have it they will spend it
late models should be late models and thats it, drop all the different classes, crates were a great idea but it has gotten out of hand
if you want my opinion, its all the different dam tires in the super world that drives me nuts, no need for all the different tires, soft, med, hard, and be done with it

You are ok with just cutting out half the late models?

[grt74]

You are ok with just cutting out half the late models?

all im saying is make the late models one class, not 3-4, trust me, alot will go to super (there buying new cars to run crates today), and no you don't need a 30-40 thousand dollar engine,15-20 will get you in, a 525 will cost about 15-17 by the time you get it in the car(depending on the accessories) im just trying to throw out ideas here,no matter which lates you run, its going to cost money to run them
purses can be better if there not split up between 2 classes ( better purses= better car counts, on the local level and with out the local level, supers will be gone at some point),
we have to fix the local level if lates are going to survive and if it goes to all crates, well im out at that point
ill find some other form of racing at that point, its going to take a little better purses on the local level, not a ton better but a little better, say 1500-1600 to win, and if the track is running both classes, they can and should combine the purses and just run supers, you will see the counts go up, it may take a little bit of time but it will grow
again just my opinion

[MaverickSprints]

all im saying is make the late models one class, not 3-4, trust me, alot will go to super (there buying new cars to run crates today), and no you don't need a 30-40 thousand dollar engine,15-20 will get you in, a 525 will cost about 15-17 by the time you get it in the car(depending on the accessories) im just trying to throw out ideas here,no matter which lates you run, its going to cost money to run them
purses can be better if there not split up between 2 classes ( better purses= better car counts, on the local level and with out the local level, supers will be gone at some point),
we have to fix the local level if lates are going to survive and if it goes to all crates, well im out at that point
ill find some other form of racing at that point, its going to take a little better purses on the local level, not a ton better but a little better, say 1500-1600 to win, and if the track is running both classes, they can and should combine the purses and just run supers, you will see the counts go up, it may take a little bit of time but it will grow
again just my opinion
Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner! You nailed it, the class is far too diluted and crates are killing interest for the fans because they are DULL and Boring, period. Some joker insinuated you had to spend $100k to run a super locally, that's BS. You could run a 2-4 year old car and a used engine for less than half that and spend less than these cratetards that $40k just on a new car. Now if your gonna run nationally and follow a tour, sure you want all new, but not a local weekly show. I blame the Fastrak guy for finishing off weekly supers by offering purses better to crates than they'd pay a super to get people to switch over to his club. No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. If you wanna make dirt track into club racing promote crates, if you actually want fans to watch and support it, go Super.

[MLR19]

"No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. "

So when a crate wins a super race is it still boring? LOL
Most of the people who preach against crates, do so because they cant win in the crate class, and don't have any excuses left , such as they can't afford the big motor like the rich guys. And if they do run crates & get beat, its because someone is cheating.
Crates in our area put on a very good show, engines get tech'd every week, and have kept a bunch of people involved in racing who wouldn't be if Open Motors was the only choice.
It makes a lot more sense to spend $6000 on an engine to race for $800 to win then it does to spend $40,000 on an engine to race for $1200 to win.

[Racer63]

"No matter how you slice it crates are BORING, a snoozer and that's not good for attracting or keeping a fan base. "

So when a crate wins a super race is it still boring? LOL
Most of the people who preach against crates, do so because they cant win in the crate class, and don't have any excuses left , such as they can't afford the big motor like the rich guys. And if they do run crates & get beat, its because someone is cheating.
Crates in our area put on a very good show, engines get tech'd every week, and have kept a bunch of people involved in racing who wouldn't be if Open Motors was the only choice.
It makes a lot more sense to spend $6000 on an engine to race for $800 to win then it does to spend $40,000 on an engine to race for $1200 to win.



Well said but your beating your head against the wall trying to tell a few of these guys that...

[Matt49]

MLR19 is exactly right. And the reason that the racing is so good is because we don't have a dumbed down rule package in our crate division. No shock rule, a two-compound tire rule, no left year shock and spring in front rule...it's a full blown late model setup with a crate engine. There isn't a lot of junk in this class. Pretty much everybody has good stuff. The sure way to kill the crate late model is to put rules in that make it unappealing to late model guys. If we started piling on silly rules, I would likely quit racing altogether. I can't afford a competitive open motor and I'm not interested in the UMP modified stuff that much.

[MaverickSprints]

Crates are DULL, I'm sorry but they just are. Underpowered bogging, droning and lack excitement. After lap 1 they usually space out evenly and then drone around the track for 20 laps. You posted this in the Late Model section, so you got a Late Model answer. Having everyone with the same engine eliminates another area that some people take pride in, building and selecting the right parts for best performance. No different than selecting the right shock settings, spring rates and stagger. Whats even worse is this new 602 class, somebody shoot me. Before weekly supers died in my area the team I was with last built its own engines and won pretty regularly locally. I'm not one who thinks I have to have the newest latest and greatest to be competitive, whether its chassis or engine. To me crates is socialized racing, forcing everybody to be the same, no creativity, no individuality. Limited would have been the better way to go, at least no one was forcing you to all run the same make or same cam. Crates are unappealing to late model guys.

[Matt49]

Crates are DULL, I'm sorry but they just are. Underpowered bogging, droning and lack excitement. After lap 1 they usually space out evenly and then drone around the track for 20 laps. You posted this in the Late Model section, so you got a Late Model answer. Having everyone with the same engine eliminates another area that some people take pride in, building and selecting the right parts for best performance. No different than selecting the right shock settings, spring rates and stagger. Whats even worse is this new 602 class, somebody shoot me. Before weekly supers died in my area the team I was with last built its own engines and won pretty regularly locally. I'm not one who thinks I have to have the newest latest and greatest to be competitive, whether its chassis or engine. To me crates is socialized racing, forcing everybody to be the same, no creativity, no individuality. Limited would have been the better way to go, at least no one was forcing you to all run the same make or same cam. Crates are unappealing to late model guys.

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

Spread bore gets 6" spoiler.

[grt74]

There are a ton of guys in our area running crates that raced supers for a long time before switching. How is buying a $40,000 engine that you don't even know how to work on (this is what the majority of guys running supers do) add some level of pride to a class? It doesn't.
And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars. That's not the way it is everywhere and it certainly isn't where MLR19 and I race.
Anyway...as I have stated several times...crates are not the "answer" to the question I am asking here so let's get off the "crates are evil" side bar. As MLR19 said, most everybody I see that says that has no idea what is happening in areas where crates haven't been turned into glorified street stocks.

But I think some additional weight added to the spread bore motor cars would be a great place to start.

i just don't understand where 40 thousand dollars comes from, guys need to learn how to do business, a nice used piece can be bought for 20,yes an 11 degree 430 on the 2nd-3rd freshen, and on bull rings and 3/8 they wear the wide bores out, only 2 places i know that need a wide bore, and thats just for qualifying, eldora and knoxville, other than that you can compete anywhere in the country, drivability is still a factor, and the reason i guess that im on crates and limiteds is because there spending some serious money these days, so my question is where is the savings?????
and while not everyone is cheating them up, there are some areas where you better have more than a factory 604 or your not going to run in the top 3, again more money
make one late model class(crate or supers)but i hope supers, and pay a decent purse, if they keep paying 500-600 to win its just not going to last, truth hurts but it is what it is,THE TRUTH

i know alot of tracks are in a tight spot these days but its not the racers job to do the promoting and having a good relationship with the local businesses, sponsors and government
a promotor= a salesman
now go hustle up the people, show there is x amount of people coming and sell the advertising signs
theres several ways to skin a cat, but its still work to skin that cat


i don't know the answer but the definition of insane is, to do the same thing and expect different results

[grt74]

unless you go out and buy all brand new stuff, supers are not as expensive as one may think, there are plenty of nice low race used pieces out there
(alot of guys run 2-4 races on a brand of chassis and if they cant hook it up they sell it for another), engines and cars
just my 2 cents, i agree something needs to be done but to get everyone on the same page and work together, it won't happen, to many egos
rant done, ill leave it alone now
some things just need to change and alot of the older guys cant or don't want to change

[Matt49]

I think the big thing with the supers vs crate comparison is that we aren't comparing apples to apples. And by apples in this case I mean a competitive car capable of winning on a local or regional level.
If you compare apples to apples in that regard with supers vs crates, there is a HUGE cost difference. It's not just a matter of the initial cost of the motor but the maintenance cost (total cost of ownership) of that motor and the additional wear and tear on drive train and tires.
Super late model guys spend 3 times what crate guys do on tires and it's because of the motor. Super late model guys are frequently dropping transmissions and rear ends. Simply doesn't happen with crates nearly as much. And we're not even talking about things like the cost of a dry sump system that is pretty much necessary if you want to hold together 800HP for any period of time.
I'm sorry but this notion that the cost of running a competitive crate is close to the cost of a competitive super is nonsense. I'm pretty close with guys that are competitive in both classes (in different cars obviously) and the cost difference is enormous.
Obviously we are seeing different things in different parts of the country. I think a lot of people would be surprised with the quality of racing there is in the crate late model division here in Indiana. I see videos of races in the south that are exactly what MaverickSprint is describing. No doubt, crates on a big hooked up race track is like watching a go-kart race. But that isn't the recipe everywhere.
Anyway...back on point. I just think we need a class that is late model "cars" with a set of engine rules that is:
1) easy to enforce
2) keeps the smart money up front without keeping the big money out (that's impossible)
3) keeps the fans entertained on tracks where crates are not fun to watch
If we had something like this and a guy could spend 15-20 on a competitive motor, I'd be all in. But there would need to be unified rules so that guys can travel and be "regional".
I'm not saying to get rid of the "open" cars but the number of people that can afford to compete there (even at the regional and local level) is getting fewer and fewer.

[profab00]

I think we already had the answer and let it get away from us. All out super engines weigh 2350 with smaller spoiler and "spec" engine making 650 or so hp with steel block and spec heads weigh 2300 with more spoiler. 20,000 dollar engine versus 40,000 to 52,000. Body is way outta hand but I think we have to start with the 900 pound guerilla in the room.

[fastford]

MLR19 is exactly right. And the reason that the racing is so good is because we don't have a dumbed down rule package in our crate division. No shock rule, a two-compound tire rule, no left year shock and spring in front rule...it's a full blown late model setup with a crate engine. There isn't a lot of junk in this class. Pretty much everybody has good stuff. The sure way to kill the crate late model is to put rules in that make it unappealing to late model guys. If we started piling on silly rules, I would likely quit racing altogether. I can't afford a competitive open motor and I'm not interested in the UMP modified stuff that much.

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

[Matt49]

I think we already had the answer and let it get away from us. All out super engines weigh 2350 with smaller spoiler and "spec" engine making 650 or so hp with steel block and spec heads weigh 2300 with more spoiler. 20,000 dollar engine versus 40,000 to 52,000. Body is way outta hand but I think we have to start with the 900 pound guerilla in the room.

Makes some sense. But is 50 pounds enough to close the gap?
I was thinking something like 2500 pounds for spread bore, 2400 for anything standard bore spacing with 18 degree or less heads. 2300 for anything 23 degree heads. Just spit balling here.

I completely agree on the 900 pound guerilla in the room. I just don't understand why so many want to point the finger at things that are a drop in the bucket cost wise compared to the cost of ownership for a 900HP motor. People want to blame aero and shocks but once you get 900+ HP in a car so that you can qualify up front, you have to do something to get that thing stuck when it gets slick. So entered advanced aero and shock packages (they go hand in hand). We could go back to the UMP body rules of 1984 tomorrow and I guarantee there would NOT be a sudden influx of spread bore motors for sale on racing junk.
Whatever it is, it has to be simple to enforce. Tracks and series have enough trouble checking what is going on now.

[Matt49]

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

See, this is the problem. Crates were NEVER supposed to be an economical beginners class. Crate late model classes were developed as an alternative form of late model racing for guys that have late model stuff, understand how to setup and drive late models, but cannot afford a motor that costs more than their house to maintain every year.
What you have, at least in our area where we have kept a full blown late model car with a crate motor, is that the majority of the guys racing in this class came from super late models, modifies, or super stocks. There are a few guys that went out and bought 10 year old cars and will run in the back but for the most part it isn't an "entry level" class and was never intended to be. This mentality and dumbing down the rules is what is killing crate racing (and with it giving the notion that crates are killing all late model racing) in many areas.
Somebody that has never raced before is unlikely to jump into a 4-bar car and have much success driving it or figuring out how to set it up...regardless of HP.
Pure stocks are supposed to be an economical beginners class.

[MLR19]

crates are suppose to be an economical beginners class, where is the economics in what you describe?

I don't think crates are supposed to be a "beginners class" . Crates are saving late model racing at the local level. Someone said in a previous post that the late model car count declined
at their local track, this is common everywhere.
At the weekly late model shows around here, (if its a regular show) you might see 12-14 cars with 3 or 4 of those being crates. Then you have 3 or 4 that only race local shows but do so on a unlimited budget. The remainder are guys that race on a budget , and have a very slimchance
of winning a feature.
If you don't have an unlimited budget, but still want to be competitive, then the crate is a great option. Yes you will have people with an unlimited budget racing crates, but it isn't a huge advantage like it is in the open motor cars.
Someone also posted that setup on a crate isn't as important as a super, setup is what wins races in the crate class, because everyone is very close on motor, I would say setup is twice as important in crate racing. If your car is tight with 800 hp you can drive thru it with the throttle. Crates are all about keeping the car free & maintaining corner speed.
A few weeks ago when there weren't any crate races locally we ran our crate car with the opens, granted it was a slick track. We won our heat race & ran second in the feature, nobody in the stands could tell the difference between the supers & the crates that night.
Of course from the open guys that get beat by a crate, we hear "the motor must be a cheater", does anybody really think that you can cheat a 604 enough to double the horsepower?

[Matt49]

Unfortunately, the answer to your last question is yes. And the same people that believe that also believe that owning and operating a crate late model program is not much cheaper than running an open late model program and that if crates were banned tomorrow we would all just turn around and by open motors like nothing changed.

[fastford]

thats exactly the way they were presented to us down here to begin with, an economical beginners class where some one could go buy a 5k older roller, a 3k engine and START racing, withen a year the ones with a lot of funds were taking expensive top of the line rollers , putting these so called 3k 602 engines that they were spending way more than that on, so they could win a race against inferior equipment. now when there is a big race around here the top super drivers show up with both cars and usually wins. matt, we have had this argument before and i do respect your opinions so i will once again agree to disagree.........

[mcarter815]

B-mods and stock cars are where beginners should be starting. Crate or not, late models aren't a beginner class. Up here we don't have crate late models, but we do have IMCA spec motor late models. The payouts just aren't good enough to support even that on a weekly basis. $600 to win means that half of the field pulls in after a few laps.

[Matt49]

thats exactly the way they were presented to us down here to begin with, an economical beginners class where some one could go buy a 5k older roller, a 3k engine and START racing, withen a year the ones with a lot of funds were taking expensive top of the line rollers , putting these so called 3k 602 engines that they were spending way more than that on, so they could win a race against inferior equipment. now when there is a big race around here the top super drivers show up with both cars and usually wins. matt, we have had this argument before and i do respect your opinions so i will once again agree to disagree.........

No worries, man. I think a little bit of this is like I'm kind of trying to say - different perspectives given that crate racing is very different in different parts of the country. To your point, how something billed and what it actually is are two different things. There is a misconception that today you can spend $5000 and have a 604 crate ready to race if you have a car already. But that of course doesn't include carb, headers, water pump, fuel pump, power steering pump, distributor, ignition, etc. etc.
Around here, crates have been considered an alternative to open late models and usually turning laps right around the same as the UMP mods when the track is fast and a little better than the mods when it gets slick for obvious reasons. And right on with the supers when the track is slick. Crates have won about a dozen features against supers (and not junk supers either) around here in the last several years.
I'll put it this way. At our local track, in the top 10 in crate points are 3 former track champions in super late models and 1 former track champion in super stocks. It's hardly a beginners class. Good cars, good drivers, crate motors. It works for us. Again...it isn't the answer to late model racing in general...just a stop gap in my opinion to keep guys from completely selling out. And if you keep the rules on the cars the same, a guy that comes into some money or the right opportunity can just drop an open motor in and go racing with the same car.
This is why I'm a big proponent of keeping the car rules uniform for all breeds of late model. I don't want the opens to die and I don't want crates to go away either. But it seems we need something in between if we're going to make it long term. As much as I'm not for more classes in general at race tacks, weekly late model racing across the country is struggling. I would personally be okay if we just slowly migrated "crates" to the CT525. Fans like the noise and at tracks where the 604s just run out of legs, the 525s seem to be okay. But then the coil packs present a challenge if you want to go run with the supers at most tracks. But you can run a 604 against supers, still be legal, and at a lot of places get 100 pound weight break just because of the steel block.
I don't know...something has to happen soon or we're going to continue to lose racers.

[fastford]

we are on the same page, but they just decided to add a new class here, its called crate sportsman, 602 only, now we have 4 late model classes, including the support classes, thats 7 classes per night, where does it all end? they say, crates is the economical answer , yet there is not an economical competitive car out there , so i dont know, i guess time will tell....

[let-r-eat]

I don't see any economical fast cars in any class *including fwd style cars*.........fastford. LOL

[Matt49]

we are on the same page, but they just decided to add a new class here, its called crate sportsman, 602 only, now we have 4 late model classes, including the support classes, thats 7 classes per night, where does it all end? they say, crates is the economical answer , yet there is not an economical competitive car out there , so i dont know, i guess time will tell....

And, if we're talking about the same thing, that crate sportsman class was a result of exactly what I'm talking about. They wanted to add a shock rule and all of the 604 guys lost their minds (I would have been one of them), so they decided to create a new class with the 602 motor and a no adjustable shock rule.
So the problem here is that if a guy had a 604 and maybe a 602 as a backup motor (not a bad strategy if you run crates for points) your backup motor is now worthless in your regular class and if you want to go "down" a class, you have to spend money on non-adjustable shocks since all you have is double adjustable. Stupid rules.
And on the flip side of that, if a guy runs the sportsman class and decides he wants to step up to the 604, he has to run in a class where he'll be outclassed from a shock standpoint.
If they would leave all of the other rules alone, a guy could move from one class to another just by changing motors.
Around here if I were to come into an opportunity to have an open motor, all I do is switch motors and I've got a competitive car with the opens (a few adjustments obviously but all of the right equipment). On the flip side, if a guy that normally runs opens gets down on motors and drops a 604 in his car, he can legally run with the crates without changing shocks, shock/spring configuration, taking out bump stops, etc. etc. That makes a lot more sense to me.

[hipower17]

it doesn't matter what the rules are, if you don't have good tech at the local level to enforce the rules then whoever has the most money to spend or bends the rules the best, most of the time will win. ( TECH IS THE KEY ) just my opinion.

[A ron]

Down here, for the moment anyway, you can buy a $3500 roller, a 602, and a $400 set of afco shocks and run competitive in the 602 Sportsman class. I'm sure at some point the people with unlimited budgets will drop down and ruin all the fun (already seeing stacker haulers and $40k capitals showing up) but for now it's great in my opinion. This is only my third year to be around but I've picked up that every class (down here at least) seems to do great until the racers find somewhere else to "buy" an edge.

[fastford]

I don't see any economical fast cars in any class *including fwd style cars*.........fastford. LOL

i have 2 kids in FWD cars that have less than 2k in them and they have both won races, thats about as economical as you can get

[fastford]

Down here, for the moment anyway, you can buy a $3500 roller, a 602, and a $400 set of afco shocks and run competitive in the 602 Sportsman class. I'm sure at some point the people with unlimited budgets will drop down and ruin all the fun (already seeing stacker haulers and $40k capitals showing up) but for now it's great in my opinion. This is only my third year to be around but I've picked up that every class (down here at least) seems to do great until the racers find somewhere else to "buy" an edge.

thats exactly what happened to the original crate class, MONEY , but its the nature of the beast....

[old17ford]

Been racing and around racing about 50 years same o same o the unlimited budget teams have almost killed racing . They have a car in almost every class and tech at tracks is not to good all late model bodys are wrong even ours.I love racing as much as anybody but its hard when you know you dont have much of a chance to win and that is what its all about .imoa Hope things changes before i kick the bucket .

[grt74]

its simple, cost and time vs reward, if you win
crates may have been the answer but they let them in the engines and pay less to win,im speaking on weekly events

[MaverickSprints]

And you're right, I posted in the late model section and was hoping people that don't know much about late models (you've consistently demonstrated this) would stay out of it.
You're speaking from your personal experience watching crates at maybe one track likely with a lot of junk cars.

Actually, in my area, there are primarily 2 teams that dominate at 3 tracks. One team was a limited only team before the inception of crates, they always had new cars and pro-built Clements engines. Now they have 2 new cars, 1- limited 1-Crate, both new, top of the line Barry Wrights and they pay an outside party to maintain and prep the cars every week, latest & greatest parts, shocks and technology. This team wins nearly all the races at one track. There are probably 5 other teams that start with new cars each season now, but don't have full time organizations preparing the cars for them. There isn't much in the way of junk in the 604 class, they've since dropped down to the wonderously boring 602 sportsman class. I've worked on Late models for 30 years, built shocks for 10 of those. After the Rumley rule and this years new supposed safety rules I quit late models and began learning about sprints(non-wing) and plan to start a spec/limited sprint class here in the south. You asked in the begining, "Where are we headed?" so let me answer. Where we are headed is no where, fans don't enjoy under-powered over-traction go karts and open comp supers are being allowed to become more and more expensive thru rule creep and ineffective ignorant leadership that write rules for the elite at the expense of the rest. Where we are headed is crate lates becoming the norm, without fans, so it will be club style racing with no purse, just trophies like the ones they gave you for showing up all your life for t-ball.

[Matt49]

Actually, in my area, there are primarily 2 teams that dominate at 3 tracks. One team was a limited only team before the inception of crates, they always had new cars and pro-built Clements engines. Now they have 2 new cars, 1- limited 1-Crate, both new, top of the line Barry Wrights and they pay an outside party to maintain and prep the cars every week, latest & greatest parts, shocks and technology. This team wins nearly all the races at one track. There are probably 5 other teams that start with new cars each season now, but don't have full time organizations preparing the cars for them. There isn't much in the way of junk in the 604 class, they've since dropped down to the wonderously boring 602 sportsman class. I've worked on Late models for 30 years, built shocks for 10 of those. After the Rumley rule and this years new supposed safety rules I quit late models and began learning about sprints(non-wing) and plan to start a spec/limited sprint class here in the south. You asked in the begining, "Where are we headed?" so let me answer. Where we are headed is no where, fans don't enjoy under-powered over-traction go karts and open comp supers are being allowed to become more and more expensive thru rule creep and ineffective ignorant leadership that write rules for the elite at the expense of the rest. Where we are headed is crate lates becoming the norm, without fans, so it will be club style racing with no purse, just trophies like the ones they gave you for showing up all your life for t-ball.

Which is why I'm a big proponent of something in the middle. Opens are running wild and (as we agree but for different reasons) crates aren't the long term solution. Yeah there are "limited" late model classes already in existence but the rules on motors and cars are all over the place. Let's come up with a unified set of engine rules that is easy to tech and keeps the super huge money from ruining the party (as much as reasonably possible) by simply outspending on motor.
I'm not a big fan of limiting what we're doing for suspension from one class of late model to another. Let late models be late models from a car perspective and let the motors be the differentiation.

[MaverickSprints]

Agree to disagree. Good luck.

[zeroracing]

Agree 100% with Matt, motor rules but not chassis, nobody wants a one off car.

[Bob Hubbard]

Good Post matt .... I agree alot of your points ....

[MaverickSprints]

Agree 100% with Matt, motor rules but not chassis, nobody wants a one off car.

I never advocated a "one off" car, that's stupid and a gross perversion of everything I recommended. What's sad is none of you young guys realize we've been HERE before, in this same situation. During the wedge era, just like now, the cars had way too much traction, everybody was flying thru the corners at breakneck speeds and the only advantage was MORE power. Engine costs sky rocketed, racers began dropping out of late model and before the ship was corrected a large part of the DLM population was gone. In parts of the midwest late models never returned... Todays cars and the wedge era cars are very similar in what they provide, the only difference is how its achieved. Todays cars prop up the chassis and body on 2 solid rods instead of just building the body that way to start, same end result, HIGH downforce. I am a free market conservative, this is my viewpoint on everything from the economy to racing as I close in on 50 years old.

The younger guys have embraced the shock and suspension technology that has come about to deal with violent suspension movements born from the shock behind setup and they don't wish to give that up, it's their performance advantage over others, so they wish to diminish the advantages that a veteran has earned from years of racing and wise investment. My ideas, my POV is to use the same solution that corrected the sinking ship before, take away the aero and diminish the traction. With diminished traction, you have less need of high HP and this, in turn, reduces engine costs and allows more people to come out and play. In order to get at the root of the problem, you must remove or hinder what causes the problem. What causes the problem began in 98' with the advent of running, "On The Hook". Everything that has led to the runaway expense in both engines, chassis and suspension of dirt late model today IS rooted in the shock behind setup, period. And since that is the case, that is where fixing the problem resides as well. I don't expect this to happen, the powers that be combined with the attitudes and ignorance of a younger generation are going to decimate late models even further.

Recently at 2 Lucas shows here in the south there weren't enough supers to even make a full field. Fans won't travel hundereds of miles to watch a crate race, they're to dull. Now we have two extremes heavily invested, we have companies and teams invested in the elite traveling end of things and we have companies and teams sprung up that cater only to crates, such that now you need spend $13K-$15K for all the goodies to juice up your 604 to be a contender in the crate ranks. The whole thing is so corrupted that I bailed after 30 years. The solution is so clear, but because everyones motivations are for themselves and NOT the sport as a whole, it won't be fixed.

Rest In Peace

[Matt49]

I never advocated a "one off" car, that's stupid and a gross perversion of everything I recommended. What's sad is none of you young guys realize we've been HERE before, in this same situation. During the wedge era, just like now, the cars had way too much traction, everybody was flying thru the corners at breakneck speeds and the only advantage was MORE power. Engine costs sky rocketed, racers began dropping out of late model and before the ship was corrected a large part of the DLM population was gone. In parts of the midwest late models never returned... Todays cars and the wedge era cars are very similar in what they provide, the only difference is how its achieved. Todays cars prop up the chassis and body on 2 solid rods instead of just building the body that way to start, same end result, HIGH downforce. I am a free market conservative, this is my viewpoint on everything from the economy to racing as I close in on 50 years old.

The younger guys have embraced the shock and suspension technology that has come about to deal with violent suspension movements born from the shock behind setup and they don't wish to give that up, it's their performance advantage over others, so they wish to diminish the advantages that a veteran has earned from years of racing and wise investment. My ideas, my POV is to use the same solution that corrected the sinking ship before, take away the aero and diminish the traction. With diminished traction, you have less need of high HP and this, in turn, reduces engine costs and allows more people to come out and play. In order to get at the root of the problem, you must remove or hinder what causes the problem. What causes the problem began in 98' with the advent of running, "On The Hook". Everything that has led to the runaway expense in both engines, chassis and suspension of dirt late model today IS rooted in the shock behind setup, period. And since that is the case, that is where fixing the problem resides as well. I don't expect this to happen, the powers that be combined with the attitudes and ignorance of a younger generation are going to decimate late models even further.

Recently at 2 Lucas shows here in the south there weren't enough supers to even make a full field. Fans won't travel hundereds of miles to watch a crate race, they're to dull. Now we have two extremes heavily invested, we have companies and teams invested in the elite traveling end of things and we have companies and teams sprung up that cater only to crates, such that now you need spend $13K-$15K for all the goodies to juice up your 604 to be a contender in the crate ranks. The whole thing is so corrupted that I bailed after 30 years. The solution is so clear, but because everyones motivations are for themselves and NOT the sport as a whole, it won't be fixed.

Rest In Peace

Like you said, we'll agree to disagree.
My firm belief is that you could start rule tomorrow that said you can't have a body on the car at all and the spread bore motors wouldn't magically disappear as you are suggesting. They would still be there and they would still be winning races.
Do you have a list of the $15K of goodies that I need to juide up my 604? I'm pretty competitive as it is without these things you speak of. I'm just curious what they are as I don't see them on my competitor's cars either but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

[Lizardracing]

Just something to think about.
In my area the Bmods($400 to win) have the fullest fields by far of any other class. 35-40 is not unusual.

15 super style late models and/or crates styles are normal at $1000/$750 to win.

What can we take from looking at other classes doing well and apply that to late model and racing in general?

To me it's in the engine/shock/aero packages but leaving a very adjustable car in place that seems to make more difference than payouts for the average driver. Big money teams will always spend the big money but catering more to the average racer, the ones having fun trying to win and not the very few who can buy their way to the front is more effective in ALL classes.
Keep in mind a close door to door race at 5mph is still less exciting to fans.

I've noticed a few things that tracks doing well have in common. Small 3/8 or less tracks, racey mutiple groove surfaces, unforgiving cushions, quality hot food with alcohol beverages, clean bathrooms and an overall show that minimizes down time make it more enjoyable for fans and racers.

[MaverickSprints]

Like you said, we'll agree to disagree.
My firm belief is that you could start rule tomorrow that said you can't have a bod on the car at all and the spread bore motors wouldn't magically disappear as you are suggesting. The would still be there and they would still be winning races.
Do you have a list of the $15K of goodies that I need to juide up my 604? I'm pretty competitive as it is without these things you speak of. I'm just curious what they are as I don't see them on my competitor's cars either but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

$13K-$15K includes the 604, things like special crate carbs, headers, pulley systems, brakes, blueprinting, etc, etc. There is a whole cottage industry that exists to profit solely from giving the 604 3 more HP at a premium. But it has all been discussed Ad nauseam in other threads. I haven't advocated any magic, just basic logic, common sense and 30 years experience. You see I don't expect spread bores to disappear, I don't need them to. I don't fear what others feel compelled to spend in error, you yourself pointed out that in certain circumstances a 450Hp Crate can compete and beat an open comp 850HP brute. My aim is to replicate that situation so 850HP isn't a necessity, though you are free to spend as much as you like. So why are you here in the DLM section espousing the virtues of crates if what you want is engine rules, but no chassis rule? We have engine rules now and the same way you furiously cling to your over priced suspension, they cling to their over priced engines...

History doesn't always repeat, but it does often rhyme and those who ignore it or are ignorant of it are doomed to relive it and the consequences.

[Matt49]

You're listing costs on crates for carbs, headers, pulleys, and pumps as if these same costs don't exist for open motors. A carb or headers for a crate doesn't cost any more than a carb or headers for an open. Same for all the pumps and pulleys until you get to the oil system which is WAY more expensive for an open.
All of the other "trick" stuff like lightweight brakes, hubs, etc. are not necessary AT ALL to be competitive or win in a crate. MLR19's crate car has beaten open motor competition without any of this stuff.
This is another thing killing the crate class: the misconception (that is spreading unfortunately) that you have to sink tens of thousands of dollars more into a crate car to get it competitive than you do an open. It simply isn't true.

[billetbirdcage]

http://i.imgur.com/CoE0pzm.jpg



Sorry, about it being huge took me a while to figure out how to downsize the pic.

[pig tracker]

Take the tires away. Have them run on skinny tires with no grooving or any other type of alterations.

[rakracing]

I've only been racing latemodels since 1988 so I'm new at this, maverick, matt and pig have some good points, go back to the original performance body style nose and a 4" spoiler, and the shock spring in front on lr deal took all the drive out of these cars and forced the driver to drive them instead of flat out if cars right your good if not not much the driver car do about it. simple inexpensive fixes and simple to tech. as for the engines I always built my own, never had one more than 3k, but did win a 100 lap open motor open tire race and lapped up to 3rd, if you cant hook em up what good is all the hp, as for the crates its easy for someone to buy a 602 or 604 and go racing but you cant build your own if you want . an all steel 358 engine rule gives you that ability if you wish to build your own and save money, { and can tell you its better to win with something you built then bought} tires are the hardest problem, open rule your buying new tires every week, hard spec d55 1600 rule you'll buy tires every week cause the edges mean something, and a 12 tire as pig brought up would be a good idea but the woo and lucas guys will never do it, hoosier and a.r tire companies wouldnt like it either, kinda like the 1300/44 or harder, sipe and groove rules myself.

[pfd60]

This has been the best post to read in a while. Stop qualifying unless its a big series show. Go to a points system. Power I midgets do this and they put on great shows. The better teams will be upfront by the end of the night. Better for spectators. Qualifying with no invert can make for train races. Then you dont need a huge motor. That would fix most of the costs. Then the big motors from 10 years ago would be all you need. And you can pick one up for the same price as a cheated up complete crate. That would bring more supers drivers back. The better teams would also have to pass cars which makes for a better show for the spectators. Spectators would rather watch there favorite driver rip through the competition to the front than no passing at all. Its way more exciting. spectators are the only reason tracks stay open. The bodies need a little work but motors are the issue I agree with matt. Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading.

[MaverickSprints]

I've only been racing latemodels since 1988 so I'm new at this, maverick, matt and pig have some good points, go back to the original performance body style nose and a 4" spoiler, and the shock spring in front on lr deal took all the drive out of these cars and forced the driver to drive them instead of flat out if cars right your good if not not much the driver car do about it. simple inexpensive fixes and simple to tech. as for the engines I always built my own, never had one more than 3k, but did win a 100 lap open motor open tire race and lapped up to 3rd, if you cant hook em up what good is all the hp, as for the crates its easy for someone to buy a 602 or 604 and go racing but you cant build your own if you want . an all steel 358 engine rule gives you that ability if you wish to build your own and save money, { and can tell you its better to win with something you built then bought} tires are the hardest problem, open rule your buying new tires every week, hard spec d55 1600 rule you'll buy tires every week cause the edges mean something, and a 12 tire as pig brought up would be a good idea but the woo and lucas guys will never do it, hoosier and a.r tire companies wouldnt like it either, kinda like the 1300/44 or harder, sipe and groove rules myself.

^^^ What he said. ^^^ LIKE button. Thanks, bro.

[FlatTire]

I've been around late models for 35yrs now and raced a spec/open motor for the past 12. As a driver, the feel and style is vastly different than it was 10yrs ago. I don't know if the laps times are any faster, but I know the corner speeds are definitely higher and that's due to increased traction from advancements made in shocks, and understanding aero. You barely have to lift to get these cars into the corner these days, and sometimes you don't. The less you lift, the more that motor plays a factor.

Another thing that I've noticed over the years that leads me to believe we are getting more out of our engines due to more traction is fuel consumption and oil temperatures. We've burned more fuel and seen higher oil temperatures than ever before.

So where are we headed......down the road of more expensive power plants. Until something is done about the amount of traction being generated, there will always be a need for more power.

[fastford]

been gone a few days and just got caught up, what if we go back to the old wedge style bodies but leave the modern suspension, i bet that joker would be fast. lol, you all have good points , matt, the only thing about your comparison of the accessory cost, is why should you need that expensive carb for a crate engine, some are bumping the 2k mark these days, whey not make them run box stock 600s, this has been my complaint about the crate idea all along, they come up with a class that utilizes a relatively inexpensive engine, then allow the ones that can afford it, buy all these expensive components , just never understood the reasoning behind it.

[Matt49]

been gone a few days and just got caught up, what if we go back to the old wedge style bodies but leave the modern suspension, i bet that joker would be fast. lol, you all have good points , matt, the only thing about your comparison of the accessory cost, is why should you need that expensive carb for a crate engine, some are bumping the 2k mark these days, whey not make them run box stock 600s, this has been my complaint about the crate idea all along, they come up with a class that utilizes a relatively inexpensive engine, then allow the ones that can afford it, buy all these expensive components , just never understood the reasoning behind it.

Willy's, Stealth, JDR, etc. all make top-notch carbs tuned specifically for the fuel curve of a 604. None of them cost more than $1200. Please show me these magical $2K carbs that are eating my lunch. Not to be a smart ass but this is just another example of people saying that people are spending money on NECESSARY things in crates that simply aren't even really out there. Everyone seems to think that crate races are being won by cars with $15K worth of motor bolt-ons and another $20K worth of trick suspension and light weight drive train parts. IT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE. But this perception is spreading like wildfire and furthering the belief the crate racing is the death of late model racing when if fact it is keeping it alive in many parts of the country.
I never intended this to be a crate discussion...as I've stated...crates aren't the answer long term. But it's amazing how many misconceptions there are out there.

[MLR19]

The carb we run is a 750 Holley I bought used on ebay & sent to JDR to be rebuilt. including purchase price and shipping plus shipping to JDR & back & Johns rebuild charge, I have less than $600 in it. We have ran it for 3 years.
Are there people selling $2000 carbs, sure there are, but because some are gullible enough to buy them doesn't make them necessary. You can also buy a $400 balancer that saves a pound or two, but it's not an advantage. The crate cars that are winning are not doing so because of the engine.

[fastford]

mlr, all that stuff is an advantage if you add it up, matt, maybe the crates are not as out of control where you race as they are down here, i dont know, Go to talladegashorttrack.com and go to there face book page and check out the kid that has been murdering them for 2 years, he won last race there and his name is cruze skinner , no 11 , here is prof of what money can do because there is well over 50 grand in that car and he is un touchable, so if you all want to bring your box stock engines and older chassis down here and prove me wrong, i welcome you, i will be the first to admit i was wrong. by the way, the only time he gets beat is when they go to a big race where there are 20 more just like his.

[MLR19]

I am only trying to state that you don't need all that stuff to win, we have competitors who have spent the money you are talking about & they don't dominate. We race for fun, and consider a top 5 a good night, and it doesn't break the bank. If people listened to all the naysayers, if you don't have $50,000 in your car you might as well not even try. I'm done with this, obviously I don't know anything about REAL crate racing.

BTW I went to the Talladega page & the guy you referenced is 8th in points, so someone must have
outran him at some point. LOL

[fastford]

he dont come every week end , but when he does, he wins, it realy dont make any difference to me, as i dont,and probably never will adhere to this form of racing , i am just trying to make a point that crates were originally billed as an economical, poor mans form of racing and it is nothing but another form of super racing because of the lack of rules to keep cost down and the enforcement of these rules, but evidently , after observing crates from the beginning, i dont know anything about REAL crate racing either, i digress.....

[old17ford]

Getting back to Matts where are we heading its hard to say but down in south ga its hard for the low budget teams to compete with teams that spend on limed late models and crates as most teams do on supers .

[profab00]

smh. How come we have to argue over crate cost and that isn't the subject of the thread. Why don't we just argue politics or religion?

[A ron]

fastford isn't kidding about Skinner at TST. Not sure if it's true or not, but someone told me they had a to scale replica of TST in their backyard to practice on. Also, There was a big crate race at Whynot in Mississippi the other night and there MAY have been 1 or 2 cars that weren't a $50k ride. Mostly Black Diamonds, Longhorns, & Capitals. Even weekly racing crates down here are being taken over by these high dollar rides.

[A ron]

and Super racing on a weekly basis is almost non existent here

[grt74]

Willy's, Stealth, JDR, etc. all make top-notch carbs tuned specifically for the fuel curve of a 604. None of them cost more than $1200. Please show me these magical $2K carbs that are eating my lunch. Not to be a smart ass but this is just another example of people saying that people are spending money on NECESSARY things in crates that simply aren't even really out there. Everyone seems to think that crate races are being won by cars with $15K worth of motor bolt-ons and another $20K worth of trick suspension and light weight drive train parts. IT SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE. But this perception is spreading like wildfire and furthering the belief the crate racing is the death of late model racing when if fact it is keeping it alive in many parts of the country.
I never intended this to be a crate discussion...as I've stated...crates aren't the answer long term. But it's amazing how many misconceptions there are out there.

the best carb on the dyno,and im sure some will have something to say about it, is a holley hp 650
tweaked a little with air bleeds and jets
im also glad that some agree that crates are getting very expensive these days, and that if they wanted to they could run supers
again just make it one class and raise the weekly pay outs, if you go supers it will get rid of the engine tech argument,
and i do believe you can build a competitive car for 40,and ill show you how
blue front end rocket 10-15 (for a nice roller, they lost there value when the xr1 came out but they can still be very competitive)fresh used 430 13 degree 15-17, shocks new 5000, or a rebuilt to new used set 2500,and i think you get the rest
just because the national guys are running something a little newer and winning doesn't mean that they couldn't jump in a car thats a few years old and still win, you still have to drive the dang thing

[Matt49]

I think this goes back to a bunch of apples to oranges comparisons. Where MLR19 and I race (same tracks for the most part), junk isn't winning races. But their are guys spending on crate the way some of you think needs to be spent on a crate to be competitive and MLR19 and me and several others consistently outrun them in STANDARD stuff when it comes to the car itself. No unobtanium hubs, fancy brakes, zero drag bearings, etc. That's all snake oil.
Two HUGE misconceptions in crate racing:
1) A guy can buy a 10 year-old car with yester-year setup and expect to be competitive.
2) A guy needs to spend $40K on a car to be competitive.
Neither are anywhere near the truth and I don't care where you race.

[grt74]

I think this goes back to a bunch of apples to oranges comparisons. Where MLR19 and I race (same tracks for the most part), junk isn't winning races. But their are guys spending on crate the way some of you think needs to be spent on a crate to be competitive and MLR19 and me and several others consistently outrun them in STANDARD stuff when it comes to the car itself. No unobtanium hubs, fancy brakes, zero drag bearings, etc. That's all snake oil.
Two HUGE misconceptions in crate racing:
1) A guy can buy a 10 year-old car with yester-year setup and expect to be competitive.
2) A guy needs to spend $40K on a car to be competitive.
Neither are anywhere near the truth and I don't care where you race.

im glad you have it figured out, man thats great, but a lot of guys(im saying 50-60%) are spending enough to run supers on a local level, and once again if they would combine the classes and pay a 1500 to 2000 to win weekly deal, cars would come, reward vs cost and labor is the factor in racing, no one and i mean no one wants to win and still cant break even for the night
and im just talking about pit passes(say 3)fuel, gas there, and a rr tire or so, i think you get the point of what im saying

[Vap8102]

Matt,First, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your question for all regions of the country. Everyone on here has a point that makes sense for where they race. All of this discussion is academic until a region of track promoters or series gets together on the same page. A lot of ideas could work to control costs, but unless enough large groups come together around one idea, nothing is going to change. And the only thing that will make any groups come together is economics. If the big series start to fail economically, something will change.With that, here's the situation out west. There's a few unlimited budget teams, but they don't win all the time. And because of that and my personal experience, I don't buy into the "wide bore is killing LMs". Even if there wasn't a wide bore, are any of us that are concerned about cost going to go out and buy a fresh 35k standard bore Cornett? It costs 10k for a Cornett freshen whether it's a wide bore or not. None of us budget racers can afford a new top of the line standard bore motor anyway, so that's not the issue. Bottom line is when you race the top of the line class, someone is going to outdollar everyone else. So the solution isn't to tell a guy how much he can spend but rather make those dollars less relevant. One big factor that seems to be working out here is the D55 spec tire. I think other rules that reduce traction (a little) would help to further minimize the impact of big dollars.I run a nearly 10 year old Victory Circle with an even older SB2, both of which I bought used. I can run (and occasionally win) with any of the west coast cars. I have outqualified Clanton and Moyer with my old equipment on a big track. I know I have less equipment than those guys, but those tires that are hard enough to make sparks make those big dollars a lot less important. And I'd sure rather buy new edges every few weeks than the alternatives.BTW, we should be outlawing 4 way adjustables...

[Vap8102]

Matt,First, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your question for all regions of the country. Everyone on here has a point that makes sense for where they race. All of this discussion is academic until a region of track promoters or series gets together on the same page. A lot of ideas could work to control costs, but unless enough large groups come together around one idea, nothing is going to change. And the only thing that will make any groups come together is economics. If the big series start to fail economically, something will change.With that, here's the situation out west. There's a few unlimited budget teams, but they don't win all the time. And because of that and my personal experience, I don't buy into the "wide bore is killing LMs". Even if there wasn't a wide bore, are any of us that are concerned about cost going to go out and buy a fresh 35k standard bore Cornett? It costs 10k for a Cornett freshen whether it's a wide bore or not. None of us budget racers can afford a new top of the line standard bore motor anyway, so that's not the issue. Bottom line is when you race the top of the line class, someone is going to outdollar everyone else. So the solution isn't to tell a guy how much he can spend but rather make those dollars less relevant. One big factor that seems to be working out here is the D55 spec tire. I think other rules that reduce traction (a little) would help to further minimize the impact of big dollars.I run a nearly 10 year old Victory Circle with an even older SB2, both of which I bought used. I can run (and occasionally win) with any of the west coast cars. I have outqualified Clanton and Moyer with my old equipment on a big track. I know I have less equipment than those guys, but those tires that are hard enough to make sparks make those big dollars a lot less important. And I'd sure rather buy new edges every few weeks than the alternatives.BTW, we should be outlawing 4 way adjustables...

[Matt49]

Matt,First, I'm not sure there's a good answer to your question for all regions of the country. Everyone on here has a point that makes sense for where they race. All of this discussion is academic until a region of track promoters or series gets together on the same page. A lot of ideas could work to control costs, but unless enough large groups come together around one idea, nothing is going to change. And the only thing that will make any groups come together is economics. If the big series start to fail economically, something will change.With that, here's the situation out west. There's a few unlimited budget teams, but they don't win all the time. And because of that and my personal experience, I don't buy into the "wide bore is killing LMs". Even if there wasn't a wide bore, are any of us that are concerned about cost going to go out and buy a fresh 35k standard bore Cornett? It costs 10k for a Cornett freshen whether it's a wide bore or not. None of us budget racers can afford a new top of the line standard bore motor anyway, so that's not the issue. Bottom line is when you race the top of the line class, someone is going to outdollar everyone else. So the solution isn't to tell a guy how much he can spend but rather make those dollars less relevant. One big factor that seems to be working out here is the D55 spec tire. I think other rules that reduce traction (a little) would help to further minimize the impact of big dollars.I run a nearly 10 year old Victory Circle with an even older SB2, both of which I bought used. I can run (and occasionally win) with any of the west coast cars. I have outqualified Clanton and Moyer with my old equipment on a big track. I know I have less equipment than those guys, but those tires that are hard enough to make sparks make those big dollars a lot less important. And I'd sure rather buy new edges every few weeks than the alternatives.BTW, we should be outlawing 4 way adjustables...

Kind of goes back to my idea of making some rules that make it possible for the "smart" money to out run the big money.
The shock rule discussion could almost be an entirely separate discussion but let's go there for a moment. While I'm not a fan of shock rules in general, I think we need to stay out of the inerter business. That being said, where do we draw the line? My fear is that if you were to make a rule that said something like "no 4-way adjustables" then someone would come up with some hidden way of adjusting the shock that the average person (let's face it that's about what most "tech" inspectors are) wouldn't be able to pick out. Then we're going to end up in the business of tearing down shocks like they tear down motors in classes with a bunch of motor rules.
I've heard the idea of a claim rule on shocks. I simply don't think claim rules work on anything. UMP modified engine rules being exhibit A.