I'm Not Much On Gimmicks, But.......

[zach51]

It is disheartening seeing so many races won from the front row. No passing for the lead. Seems like two out of three race reports on DOD is "Driver XYZ led every lap in route to his....blah blah blah".

I hate the stupid inverts and roll-the-dice stuff, pick-a-number from the hat, etc. But what I hate more is no passing for the lead.

Seeing as it doesn't look like the track prep is going to improve anytime soon, should there be more gimmicky invert stuff going on to at least give the fans a show?

It is bad enough watching on video, it is even worse when you sit out there for 5 hours and never see a pass for the lead in the feature.

[chupp n bloomer fan]

It is disheartening seeing so many races won from the front row. No passing for the lead. Seems like two out of three race reports on DOD is "Driver XYZ led every lap in route to his....blah blah blah".

I hate the stupid inverts and roll-the-dice stuff, pick-a-number from the hat, etc. But what I hate more is no passing for the lead.

Seeing as it doesn't look like the track prep is going to improve anytime soon, should there be more gimmicky invert stuff going on to at least give the fans a show?

It is bad enough watching on video, it is even worse when you sit out there for 5 hours and never see a pass for the lead in the feature.Boy, the can of worms you're going to open with this one.

Inverts depending on car count, and track prep. But probably no more than 6-8 ever.

[TheJet-09]

I'm a fan of the old trophy dash. Fastest six qualifiers start inverted (fast time in position six), and their finishing order is the first three rows of the feature line-up. From there on back can be the finishing order of heats or back to qualifying.

Referencing DoD you're obviously talking about bigger/national shows, so that's one thing, but I will forever feel that straight up starts in weekly racing has all but killed racing, most certainly for the "little" guy.

[zach51]

That is good feedback Jet. I agree with CNB, inverts definitely need a limit to 6-8. Trophy dash would work too.

When you speak of the little guy at a weekly race. I used to race the 600cc micro sprints up in Tulsa. After about 6 weeks I finally finished high enough in a heat to qualify for the A. They did invert based on point average. I was horrible, so I had a low point average. I started on the pole of the A, and I had no business being there. It was dangerous. I had guys that were way better and way faster running over me the first lap. I think I went from the pole to about 7th after 1 lap on an 1/8th mile track. It was absurd. I agree the little guy needs to be in the mix somehow but only to an extent, otherwise it becomes dangerous.

[Tireguy17]

The touring guys hate the invert, for obvious reasons, they want the easiest route to the A-main. I can't blame them for the position. But if the WoO and Lucas would work together and come to an agreement on lineup procedures, then neither series can lose cars based on it. BUT......as long as the tracks and series make money with the current format, I don't see either making any changes.

My area sanctioning body (WISSOTA) has went to a invert point average system for the feature lineup. Example: 2 heat races, the top 4 finishers in each heat make the invert. High point average based on the last 3 weeks points starts 8th in the feature.

[MRM]

It's the old chicken and the egg arguement. Is there no passing because the fast cars are up front or is there no passing because the track isn't that good? If the track isn't that good, inverts will not help with passing. I have seen that too many times.

[CIRF]

My area sanctioning body (WISSOTA) has went to a invert point average system for the feature lineup. Example: 2 heat races, the top 4 finishers in each heat make the invert. High point average based on the last 3 weeks points starts 8th in the feature.Hmmmm, that is an interesting procedure. How long has WISSOTA been using this process?

[Chris Thomason]

I was at a paved LM race (not sure why) where the leader rolled a really big novelty dice on the front straight at the midway point of the race. That might work for some long 100 lap race but the sand baggers and what could be an unnecessary caution could ruin it too.

[MI Dirt Fan]

Then we get the same excuse of "less stuff gets tore up when the fast cars start up front"

[MI Dirt Fan]

Hmmmm, that is an interesting procedure. How long has WISSOTA been using this process?

Quoted the wrong person. Sounds like Wissota uses a similar procedure to IMCA

[over4T]

At our regular California Super Stock haunts the winner of the first heat pulls a number from 1-4 to determine the invert so you could start the main anywhere from 1st to 7th position. It's bitten us several times after winning a heat and then a crummy draw puts us mid pack and we've also benefited when we sucked in a heat and the draw put us up front. A touring Nevada Pro Stock group we've run with for years puts the point leader dead last in the main. Both ways promote hard racing all night and, though it's just an expensive hobby for us, that's why we do it.

[Tireguy17]

WISSOTA has been using the Point Average Invert for at least 8 seasons.
Invitationals/Specials can use other formats, and tracks can alter from the point average for a couple weekly shows a season, usually mid-season and season championship nights.

[Krooser]

I grew with the fastest qualifier starting at the tail... 25 lap feaures. The difference from today was the promoters gave those guys a decent amount of $$$ for quick time AND (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) near the same points you'd get for winning the main. You didn't see much sandbagging.

Oh yeah...they paid four spots in the heats, too. If you didn't make the top ten in the main at least you made some $$$


some guys made a career out of winning the semi-features.

[grumfan]

I grew with the fastest qualifier starting at the tail... 25 lap feaures. The difference from today was the promoters gave those guys a decent amount of $$$ for quick time AND (not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word)(not a nice word) near the same points you'd get for winning the main. You didn't see much sandbagging.

Oh yeah...they paid four spots in the heats, too. If you didn't make the top ten in the main at least you made some $$$


some guys made a career out of winning the semi-features.

I grew up with the feature winner from the previous week starting on the tail. No qualifying, pill draw for heats. Heats paid $ and points.

[dirtcrazy4u]

Nice to see someone that remembers those days Krooser. I think very few pay heat races anymore. We raced 20 yrs ago and the purses really haven't increased that much.

[Kwd1253]

I can see both sides fastest car start in first 3 rows. You put slower guys up front they get ran over. but at same time I like seen fastest cars come from the back. They should let pole sitter pick line up right before the race starts. Fastest in front or slowest in front. If fastest in the back, double points or 1.5 times the points for each spots. Or bounces money, of course if its train race track it wouldn't work out good.

Or have pole sitter and 2nd sitter if they start from back double points for them and bounce money. It would be more entrainment for fans and give someone the chance catch up in points. Risk and reward system deal.

[Krooser]

dirtcrazy.... when I went broke during my last foray into promoting I ran two classes at my little 100 year old horse track turned speedway...four bangers and streeters. Didn't think I could get any IMCA guys to run unsanctioned even on an off night (Thursday).

I paid my streeters $300 to win if we had 12 cars... $250 otherwise. $100 to 10th place. $60-50-40 in the dash and heats. Most had never heard the term 'trophy dash'... none had ever seen heat $$$. The eventual track champ had a $250.00 Pontiac enduro car. He took home $500 one night. Still couldn't get guys to come...

I ran the hell outta the guys that did run...everyone ran a dash and two heats plus the main. I ran 'back-up' races... I pitted the 4 cyls. against the streeters in a six lap deal with the small cars getting a half lap headstart... they were never beat!

I did have a crappy race surface but I stressed if you guys support me for five weeks I'll have enough cash to resurface the track... didn't happen. So I was forced to bail... lost $29,000 in five nights counting all the improvements I did to the fairgrounds.

Stuff happens...

[TheJet-09]

101 ways to skin a cat I guess! I raced at Freeport (IL) way back when, and we didn't qualify. Our dash was the top six from the previous weeks feature. Those six also had their own heat with two additions (the front row), which I honestly cannot remember how they were chosen. But our feature line-up was the top two in the other two heats making up the front two rows, then the "fast heat" cars (the six from the dash plus the two), and the heat finishers from 3rd on back from there.

Yeah Krooser, I certainly miss the days of $ from heat races. I used to clean house in those scenarios, and actually remember feeling a little hurt financially when we had a rainout or two. That probably didn't help with your $29K loss though!

And Zach51, I certainly can relate to your story of the old invert days. I was out of racing for about 11 years when I made my return in 2013. The April special out at 34 Raceway (Burlington, IA) was the first I could make that year. It was a Cornbelt race and we drew for starting spots. I drew the outside pole of a heat. Like a macho dork, I kept my starting spot. My long hiatus showed as I was in last by the time we exited turn two. What an idiot! Luckily nothing got tore up.

But with my saying it's killed racing for the little guy, I'm talking about straight up starts in heats at weekly tracks. If someone's not capable of winning a race, they're just not going to win. But you used to be able to show up with substandard equipment, qualify slow, then start up front in a heat and actually win one here or there. That keeps you interested! You get your picture taken. You show up at work Monday morning and people ask, "How'd racing go?" And with a smile you can't wait to say, "I won my heat!" It keeps you coming back for more is all.

Now in my fifth year of this "return to racing," I show up every week knowing I will not win so much as a heat race. My own fault? Sure, and I'm not looking for any handouts, but my best chance to win anything would come in a B-Main, and I don't want to be in that race in the first place. I live on moral victories, but even those don't do it after a while.

Is that scenario good for either the racers or the fans? Are people not tired of seeing the same three or four guys win every week at their local track?

Back in the day I'd head out to East Moline every now and then on Sundays. We also didn't qualify there. They had a rule where the winner from last week started no better than something like tenth (the exact position slips my mind), but either way, I think we had 7 different winners in the first 7 weeks of racing. And that was with guys like Gary Webb, who then had something like 13 championships (not to slight Gary, but I don't know what he ultimately ended up with overall). I doubt Gary ever complained about inverted starts. For him, it was part of the job, it made him who he was.

[fryefan]

Passing point or inverts provide the best racing.

A prime example is that the MLRA shows at Donnellson, IA. During the 2015 & 2016 seasons, when MLRA was still a passing point format series, those shows were some of the best races of the year. However, this year they went to the Lucas Oil format and the 2 MLRA shows there were not very good. In fact as one blogger pointed out Chris Simpson won both races and never passed a car for position (he did pass some lap cars) in either show (heats and A-features). That is not a knock on Chris at all (I was happy to see him in victory lane), but the racing was poor. At both shows the racing in the other 5 classes (all with inverts or redraws) was very good.

[fryefan]

Also, the MARS series switched to the "freight-train" format this year as well and the racing has went downhill in my opinion.

[Illtsate32]

Back in the day they would invert qualifying for the heats then the dash winner would roll dice and whatever number 1-6 they would invert..rows..so if you didnt have a good heat you could still end up on the front row of the feature...the racing was great then stands were packed every week...why not do the same with the touring series? Too much entitlement these days people think races should be handed to them because how much money they have in their car or because of who they are...

[fryefan]

There is a lot to not like about IMCA, but there weekly race format is hard to beat. When they have full fields, the top 12 qualifiers from the heats are inverted for their feature race (based upon season track points) and they have some awesome features as the cream usually rises to the top.

[fryefan]

Back in the day they would invert qualifying for the heats then the dash winner would roll dice and whatever number 1-6 they would invert..rows..so if you didnt have a good heat you could still end up on the front row of the feature...the racing was great then stands were packed every week...why not do the same with the touring series? Too much entitlement these days people think races should be handed to them because how much money they have in their car or because of who they are...

The last sentence of your post says it all.

[zach51]

The MARS racing has indeed gone in the crapper for the most part.

[jeffreymo]

Also, the MARS series switched to the "freight-train" format this year as well and the racing has went downhill in my opinion.

Absolutely.

[Bubstr]

I like the double draw passing points format ad at least a 50 lap race. I believe it actually changes the track, by not running all those time trials on the same groove. It widens the track and helps to eliminate the rubber down groove. The track still has to be prepped right, but it definitely helps those tracks that go south quickly.

As far as 100 lap races. the Knoxville format is the thing. Best of two nights qualifying, points for TT and heat finish and invert 10 in the heats. If you like passing, those heats are the bomb. You still have a hundred laps to make up for any mistakes on qualifying nights on a Saturday track that hasn't been TT on.

There is no one size fits all. Each track holds and gives back moisture at different rates. On can be a bottomless pit for water and another, you can see it seeping to the surface during intermission. Some will need a major overhaul to compete with the supremo tracks.

[coolfool_2]

Gimmicks may work better on the big shows rather than at your weekly shows. We pill draw in our Limited Late class each week and cars seemingly get tore up each Saturday due to drivers starting up front that have no business being up there. At the touring events, at least around here, the locals with no chance of finishing top 10 usually dont show. The best of the best are there racing and seemingly would be able to handle inverts...etc all while giving the fans a better show.

[vande077]

My home track (Knoxville) shook things up this year for our weekly events and it's led to great racing.

All cars time trial, invert of 6 in the heat. You get points for time trials and your heat finish. Features are lined up by total points and the top point guy draws a pill for an invert of 0,4,6 or 8 after the heats are completed.

No one sandbags in Time Trials and the heats mean something. I think one guy has won 7 of his 8 heat races from the 3rd row and has timed in the top 3 every week. He's been fortunate enough to have the 6 invert drawn all but 2 weeks (one week was a 0 and he didn't win, other week was an 8). He's won 3 features this year so far. Another driver with similar TT and heat finishes has won 4 features.

Last weekend a guy won from 9th in the 360 sprint division (18 lap feature), 410 feature winner from front row, but the guys that started on the front row exchanged the lead 20+ times during the first 8 laps of the feature.

[MissouriMadMan]

the mars racing has indeed gone in the crapper for the most part. mars has only gone down hill since mr. Starr sold it to dirt back around 03. As far as the format change for mlra i was told that the drivers asked for the change because it's wear on equiptment...... I think more fans like passing points and drivers like timing in and straight up top however many straight to the a-main out of the heats.

[klemmabyna]

greatly enjoying this thread and the intelligent discussion.

just a fan in the stands. and I want to watch racers race.

no time trials. pill draw and passing points. USMTS format works great over a complete season.

I understand there is a wide range of track configurations and quality prep. maybe some of those places don't deserve to host big events.

so how about a shortlist of race tracks that consistently provide conditions that allow racers to race from the back to the front?

vande077: only Knoxville fans have it as good as you!!!

[cgrace]

I've seen tons of good racing with both formats. Personally I love the way I-80 does it. BUT, big BUT, their track is racey.If you only use passing points and one heat I've always thought the guys in the middle and back get screwed cause it is quite a bit harder to pass that many cars to gain points depending on the length of the heat. I've seen PLENTY of one groove passing points races which piss me off to no end. Personally I like time trails and a roll of an invert up to four for the heats.I hate it when too many things are left by draw or chance. Don't draw for heat starting and than redraw first and second again in the feature, specially if the heat winner earned it.

[gjohnston]

One of the best late model shows I remember had a unique format where double features were run. They ran twin 30 lappers on a big half mile track. For the first one the line up was set off of the heat races so you had the fast cars lined up towards the front of the first feature. For the 2nd feature they inverted the results from the first by taking the cars still on the lead lap after feature #1 and inverting them in that order for #2. The lapped cars then fell in behind the invert in the order they finished.

I guess it essentially was stage racing but both features had the same base payout for both but there was quite a bit of extra money kicked in based off of the average finish between both races. The same guy won both but in the first he was all out trying to get as many cars lapped as possible. He still had to come from about mid pack to win the 2nd. Obviously it wouldn't work for the larger shows and yes this was gimmicky but it was a gimmick that created one heck of a show.

[vande077]

vande077: only Knoxville fans have it as good as you!!!

I'll readily admit we're spoiled. Makes it really hard to go to other tracks and watch no passing, or lots of dust, or a 2 x6 that you hope will hold your weight to sit on.

Plans are to head out to the Big E next year for the first time since 1988. Everything (except maybe the dust) should be a HUGE improvement over my last trip there.

[klemmabyna]

vande077: been to the late model nationals from day one. seen that track prep guy perform miracles under all different circumstances. he's a genius. simple as that. also noted he sticks around and watches to see if what his crew did worked or not. always admire a craftsman that takes pride in their work. just another part of what makes Knoxville special.

[Illtsate32]

Lots of good points made..the bad thing about track prep and a heavy track is very hard to pass in a 10 lap heat...different formats work better for diff tracks it just obvious that some tracks have the wrong one....

[vande077]

vande077: been to the late model nationals from day one. seen that track prep guy perform miracles under all different circumstances. he's a genius. simple as that. also noted he sticks around and watches to see if what his crew did worked or not. always admire a craftsman that takes pride in their work. just another part of what makes Knoxville special.

Chris Dunkin is the main track prep guy. His father (D!ck) was the track prep guy before I was born, so the same family has been prepping the track for 50+ years now with like a 2 year hiatus around 25 years ago after D!ck passed away and Chris was not working in the area.

Chris' close friends Terry T. and Loren R. helped him for the past 20+ years until Loren's unfortunate passing a few years back. Chris' son, wife and other family members along with Terry T. help to this day and I know some will go home and sleep once the races end and then come to the track in the morning to run the water truck after Chris has used the maintainer and sheepsfoot overnight.

Terry and Chris (and oftentimes his family members) can be seen sitting in the backstretch grandstands at pretty much every event and will begin working the track for the next event within an hour of the checkered flag falling (and this includes weekly racing too) all season. Even after race season is over they work on the track to have it nice and smooth and packed down going into the winter months and start prepping it for weekly races beginning in late March (even though the season doesn't begin until mid-late April) so it's not rutty for the competitors.

Again, we're spoiled here and most local fans are well aware of that fact.

My guess is Chris puts in about 30+ hours himself every week prepping the track for weekly racing (plus the hours everyone else puts in) in addition to his fulltime job at Vermeer in Pella.

[roughride]

I don't mind draws and passing point systems, but the races have to be long enough for things to unfold. The B mains need to be long enough for a good driver and good car to advance as well after a night of bad luck. I do feel like some cars are sandbagging somewhat at the Dream and World recently. There is not much of an incentive to be the fastest car, except to get locked into the race? And if there is not an incentive to be the fastest car, why qualify anyway? I think Eldora could handle a draw and passing point system and then have random redraw so that the best car can start now worse than 8-10th?